Author Topic: Growth scenario  (Read 20226 times)

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Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2014, 07:46:18 PM »

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 01:05:51 AM »
I've been away all weekend.  Before leaving, when syncing my laptop, all the scenario files and versions vanished (my fault).  I could get growth.zip back from simutrans.germany.com, fortunately.  Not everything was lost!

I was lucky in my misfortune, since now the file is gone.  I wonder why it is gone.  Isn't the default time to stay there 60 days?

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 01:32:21 AM »
That is why I trust mediafire... ;)

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2014, 01:27:51 AM »
Thanx for uploading again.

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2014, 11:40:16 PM »
This is version 0.6.  It now includes furniture and hardware, which are demanded when the towns grow to a certain size.

I hope the link work.  I would use mediafire, but you have to sign up:
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/growth.zip

Just in case, I also attach the .nut file.


Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2014, 01:52:10 AM »
This is the state of the game I'm playing with the current version of the scenario:
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/utopia19.sve

Up to this point, even with all the industries needed for each town, the game is behaving quite well in my computer and keeping up with the load.

Regarding the state of the game itself (year 1759):
  • The initial zone of Seaham and Helmsley has solved some of the problems with towns with no Building yard, though some of them persist.  Seaham had problems with furniture supply, but now it is recovering.  Helmsley, on the other hand, has become a very beautiful town, although its growth has been stopped because it decided to build a "Castle Keep" that requires a huge amount of building materials (Clay: 340,  Wrought Iron: 340, Stone: 1777, Planks: 1323).  It will take some time for it to recover
  • The Lynmouth/Bradford/Boughton area is developping well in the meeting point of several rivers, the real advantage for transportation in these early years.  Teignmouth, down by the river side, is trying to get fish from the nearby lake, but it is short of Wrought Iron, which is also a problem for these area.  Since near Lynmouth, there is a source of coal, a new Ironworks industry is planned for the area
  • The Alsager area is the most active one.  Not for Alsager itself, that is short of Wrought Iron and grain to cope with its needs but because it has spawned two colonies: Wotton-under-edge in the north and, the best: Clare, at the other side of the Alps.  The sea near Clare is a very good opportunity for all those towns there to develop.
The game seems interesting to me, but maybe it has some micro management, but the growth is very organic and well organized.  The cities develop near rivers and other water ways, since water transportation has no direct competitor at this time, which seem natural and realistic to me.

Since I'm building all infrastructure with the public service, some strategy is missing.  Specially since you can always build canals to reach everywhere and ships don't occupy space and don't have traffic jams (they are perfect).  Nonetheless, I play to have fun and don't abuse of canals: I only build them on preexisting rivers or on short segments.

To play/see the game, you need a nightly of pak128.Britain, the scenario .nut file in a folder name scenario inside the pak directory and the savegame itself.


Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2014, 01:54:49 AM »
The file already vanished :(
The file won't vanish if the uploaded set 0 in "Days valid".
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 02:03:47 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2014, 01:59:40 AM »
The strange thing is that I left the default (60 days), but it vanished much before.  My only guess is that I didn't password protect it and anyone can have deleted it.  Is that possible?

But if it is, I wouldn't understand the reason...


Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2014, 02:05:34 AM »
But if it is, I wouldn't understand the reason...
I always upload with password and set 0 if I don't want it to be deleted.

Hmm, something might have changed. Now I see there's a 3 years limit, but still I can find some old files with no expiration date. ???

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2014, 10:46:37 PM »
Version 0.6.3 of the scenario.  Nothing important new, but starting date is now 1800, instead of 1750.

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/growth.0.6.3.zip

Offline ny911

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2014, 08:06:31 PM »
Thanks ididoro, that's a great scenario script.

I was so free to change (look to source):
- version number is now a number and not part of the translation text
- moved text to files to enable translation
- create en.tab and filled up width text for translation
- add function get_about_text() ; for translation
- used include() to split script in files (just to get a overview)

Hopefully I didn't make an big error finding all text parts in the script.

Version 0.6.04 : http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/growth.0.6.4.zip

What kind of image do you like to have for your scenario to be placed at the scenarios on http://scenarios.simutrans.com ? Making a image from the Stonehenge at xy? Or just a minimap picture?


Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2014, 12:36:16 AM »
I'd rather say that the Stonehenge image.  Reason is that those attractions were placed in suitable places to start new cities (near rivers and natural resources).

Thanks.


Offline ny911

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2014, 08:59:00 PM »
The scenario is now also online at the scenario page.
Direct link:
http://scenarios.simutrans.com/scenario/pak128_britain/growth

Offline Aquin

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »
I just tried out your scenario, and I really liked it.

Yet there are some problems:
One the first try I started with creating a city and then placed a Building Yard and after that all material counters were negative, so I coudn't build even a simple sawmill.
On the next try I started with building all the building materials industry plus some food chains before founding the first city. I don't know if this is the intended way.

Even without that being allowed, well actually forced to, place all factories yourself made me place them in a fashion that optimizes the transportation routes. It somewhat inverts the idea of finding a nice network to service the industries.
It also invites to do all the infrastructure work with the public service, eliminating the maintenance burden.

At some point it happened that something was built that consumed steel before I was able to even build a steel mill, effectively preventing all future building.

Also I would like to make some suggestions for future improvements:
I would group the building materials in 3 groups:
Beams: Planks, Wrought Iron and Steel
Stone: Stone, Brick
Mortar: Clay, Cement
Where planks would give less "Beams" points than steel.

The food section is really nice.

All the other products I would group into 3 groups "Energie", "Essentials" and "Luxuries"
Energie would be coal to coal merchants or gasworks, or petrol to gasstations. Maybe also stuff delivered to power plants.
Essentials would be stuff like clothes, newpapers, medicine,...
Luxuries is the rest.
Or there could also be percentages to divide stuff between essentials and luxuries.
And all this sutff should be consumed in the same fashion as food.

I think 1800 is still a very early start, there is not so much land based transportation available at that time. If you call the land "Utopia" I don't expect a map of swiss and north italy.

I would suggest a artificial map, with some premade cities that already have some industry for building materials and a few food chains. Such that it is possible to get a some towns growing using factories nearby, other towns should require some longer distance transportation before they become independent.
Ideally future growth could be scripted such that manual placement of industries can be avoided. A town that reaches the trigger for industry growth would spawn or extend a chain for any resource, food, energy or other good.


Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2014, 11:49:18 PM »
Thank you, Aquin.  Your comments are much appreciated.

Note that some of the features of the scenario are planned that way on purpose, but some are the result of the limited interface that is available to script programmers.  Changing it is out of my reach, since it would involve to change the source code of the game.

For instance, the maximum amount of products a new factory can produce I want to be dependant on date and location, but that feature is not available from the script interface.  The only solution I envisioned was to "ask" the player to follow that limitation.

I'll try to answer some of your questions:

One the first try I started with creating a city and then placed a Building Yard and after that all material counters were negative, so I coudn't build even a simple sawmill.
On the next try I started with building all the building materials industry plus some food chains before founding the first city. I don't know if this is the intended way.

Yes.  That is intended.  You need building materials to produce building materials.  One way is as you said.  Another is to found cities for the only purpose of producing iron, and with no growth.  Also notice that each new city, besides having "credit" for the first industry, also adopts other cities industries that are nearer at no cost.

Quote
Even without that being allowed, well actually forced to, place all factories yourself made me place them in a fashion that optimizes the transportation routes. It somewhat inverts the idea of finding a nice network to service the industries.
It also invites to do all the infrastructure work with the public service, eliminating the maintenance burden.

I'm sorry, but that is intended.  It all depends where you place the border of the simulation.  In real life, transportation is built to serve preexisting industries, but some times, industries are built near preexisting transport infrastructure.

I don't know if you realize that you cannot build industries wherever you like.  You have to first check the scenario information for the production at that site (even it can be zero and you are forbidden to build it at that place).  But, as I said before, unfortunately, that can't be enforced.

Quote
At some point it happened that something was built that consumed steel before I was able to even build a steel mill, effectively preventing all future building.

That is certainly a bug.  My main concern there is that the first steel mill would require steel to be built, but I have not been able to check it.  I played till 1800 more or less.

Quote
Also I would like to make some suggestions for future improvements:
I would group the building materials in 3 groups:
Beams: Planks, Wrought Iron and Steel
Stone: Stone, Brick
Mortar: Clay, Cement
Where planks would give less "Beams" points than steel.

That is not intended in the scenario.  The idea is that new buildings would require steel so that the player is forced to build steel mills.  If we group them, you would be able to build the newest buildings with no steel...

Quote
All the other products I would group into 3 groups "Energie", "Essentials" and "Luxuries"
Energie would be coal to coal merchants or gasworks, or petrol to gasstations. Maybe also stuff delivered to power plants.
Essentials would be stuff like clothes, newpapers, medicine,...
Luxuries is the rest.
Or there could also be percentages to divide stuff between essentials and luxuries.
And all this sutff should be consumed in the same fashion as food.

The idea here was for these goods to be required only when a city reaches a certain size.  But it is something I left for later work.

Quote
I think 1800 is still a very early start, there is not so much land based transportation available at that time.

That is exactly the point!  The idea is to force the player to found industries and cities near rivers and sea, even to build canals, in the early times.  And see how the railroad changes the scene, just as it happened in real life.  The Stonehenge monuments in the initial map are placed in suitable sites to build in early times.  But playability can be an issue here in all this.

Quote
If you call the land "Utopia" I don't expect a map of swiss and north italy.

That was simply because it was a very nice map at hand.  You have a lot of sea and rivers and a natural wall that splits the map in two.  Only when technology is good enough, that natural barrier would be overcome.

Quote
I would suggest a artificial map, with some premade cities that already have some industry for building materials and a few food chains. Such that it is possible to get a some towns growing using factories nearby, other towns should require some longer distance transportation before they become independent.
Ideally future growth could be scripted such that manual placement of industries can be avoided. A town that reaches the trigger for industry growth would spawn or extend a chain for any resource, food, energy or other good.

That is nice, but it will be certainly another scenario.  One of the main features intended is that the player "develops" the whole map: transportation, but also resources.  But if you know programming, feel free to write your own, based on mine.

anp

  • Guest
Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2014, 06:21:29 PM »
Hello!

Long time lurker here. I play mostly Simutrans Experimental with pak128 Britain exp.

I am interested in this scenario but i cannot seem to get it to work. I have installed latest simutrans nightly (120.0-7371) and pak128 Britain (1493), created a scenario folder in the pak128 britain directory, but when i try to load the scenario from the main menu i get script errors.
[class tile_object_list_x not found]

Loading the utopia.sve as a save worked but i can't seem to find any information about scenario goals/rules anywhere and as Public Service player i seems to be able to found and grow cities as much as i want.

I am not sure how this scenario is supposed to work other than that you can only found new industries in, or grow cities when you have supplied enough building materials to that citys Builder's Yard.

Is there anywhere else i can find information about this scenario and how to get it to work?

Offline ny911

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2014, 10:32:30 PM »
Quote
I am interested in this scenario but i cannot seem to get it to work. I have installed latest simutrans nightly (120.0-7371) and pak128 Britain (1493), created a scenario folder in the pak128 britain directory, but when i try to load the scenario from the main menu i get script errors.
[class tile_object_list_x not found]
use directory ../pak128.britain/scenario/growth
inside the folder "growth" the scenario has 5 files and one subfolder "en"
don't use a subfolder like ../scenario/growth/growth

Quote
Loading the utopia.sve as a save worked but
well that's only the savefile without any scenario script, so you can't find anything

Quote
Is there anywhere else i can find information about this scenario and how to get it to work?
If you load the scenario correct it shows up all informations. Also possible, but not
use able if you like to play, are all the txt files in the subfolder "en" and the en.tab file in the main scenario folder. Just use a simple text editor to open.

anp

  • Guest
Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2014, 06:41:31 AM »
I got it to work by reinstalling simutrans. I think it might have conflicted with some simutrans experimental config files.

I'm not sure i understand the production limitations for industries. I just started a game (1800) and it says "production per tile 20" in the goal tab of the scenario window. Does that mean i can only set a Builder's Yard to demand 40 per month? Or have i understood it wrong? Is it possible to alter the production/demand of industries as the production limitations decreases?
Also i can't find places for quarries and clay pits. The only raw materials spots that are defined seem to be for coal and iron.

Offline isidoro

Re: Growth scenario
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2014, 01:51:06 AM »
The limitation per tile is a general one.  It means that in 1800, if an industry has four tiles, when you build it with the public player, you have to manually set the max production to 80.  But that general limitation can be more restrictive for some products.  In that case, that is also indicated in the scenario information.

Once the industry is built, the production can be changed by the game, but not by you (public service).  Some of the industry will grow on demand and won't respect the initial limitation (wood plantation, for instance), but that is done by the game, not the script and cannot be prevented.

Clay pits and quarries are very dependant on height.  For quarries, just look for rocky places, near the snowline.  For clay pits, look for sandy places near rivers.  In this case, you can even have to dig.

Hope it helps.