can't make profitable trains

[DanteLives]

For a long time I've played 88.10.5 before recently trying the new 100.00 version. I'm having one major problem adjusting to the new version though.  I can't seem to make a decently profitable train route.  My trains always go deep into the negative on the return route when they are empty. After many runs they might get a profit but it still seems awfully low.  In contrast, my road vehicles seem to be quite profitable or at least more profitable than the trains.  I know about the freeplay option, but that doesn't really help me because I want to play within the economics of the game.

Any suggestions or guides on how to make profitable train routes?  Perhaps a save game or two that I could study would be most helpful.

[DirrrtyDirk]

Which pakset are you playing?

[neilwightman]

I have the same problem with the pak128.

[Combuijs]

See also this topic here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=149.0. Apart from the discussion about the "replicate backwards" button there is some useful information about setting up your network.

[DanteLives]

Sorry, I forgot to post that I'm using Pak 64.  The "replicate backwards" thread was interesting but not really helpful because I'm struggling with industrial routes which rarely can be made in a way where goods are carried to every stop like passenger routes.

[Combuijs]

No allright, loop routes are only useful for passengers/mail.

Odd, usually you can get good profits with goods, especially oil. Is your route straight enough?  Do you use a very expensive loc? And if you go further up in the factory chain (bookshop, car shop) the profits get higher. Did you try to make a complete factory chain?

[DirrrtyDirk]

A more basic question:

How long is your train - and did you set it to wait for 100% load at the loading station?

[yoshi]

In pak64, some goods are very cheap and it's difficult to make a profit, for sure. I can name plastics, cement, paper, and car (considering the amount you can carry). On the other hand, oil is very profitable.

[Colin]

Sorry, I forgot to post that I'm using Pak 64.  The "replicate backwards" thread was interesting but not really helpful because I'm struggling with industrial routes which rarely can be made in a way where goods are carried to every stop like passenger routes.

Goods trains can be made to stop at multiple stops providing the stops require the goods that are being carried. Your factory will automatically assign a portion of the goods to each stop, providing also that you have linked the supplier to each consumer.

On profitabilty, I can't get much or any profit from a train with 22 carriages carrying 100% steel, even though the Iron Foundry's are producing enough to fill the train immediately it pulls into the station so it never has to wait. I don't worry about this too much because my High Speed Passenger Trains are making millions. 7 years running $692,478,115.74. and counting.

[PatrickN]

I have also found that I can't make a profit if I start out hauling goods on trains.  You pretty much have to get industrial lines started with trucks and be careful with what goods you carry on trains.

[Arkamaic]

I heard someone mention oil a little ways back, thats usually where I try to start with my trains. Generally I only make each station 6 or 7 tiles long. (equals to about a train with 1 engine, and 10 or 11 cars) And try to make sure they are a good distance away from where you are delivering the goods.

[Djeserkheperure]

If the speed is not an issue and the tracks can be reserved for single train, I plan my trains like this:
1. I pick the proper rail car and locate the pay rate for the cargo from the speed bonus table.
2. I calculate one-way proceeds from single car per 1 km transported (capacity*pay per unit)
3. I substract two-way operating costs per single car per 1 km transported
4. One-way proceeds minus two-way operating costs is the profit from single car per 1 km transported (now two-way).
5. Then I pick an engine with big enough max speed to keep the speed bonus still valid. I calculate its two-way OC per 1 km and divide it with the profit from 1 car.

To put in brief: Steel with VT Vienna Steel car (120 km/h, 32 tons, 2.00c/km) in 1945, rate is 0.57 c/ton. I'll choose BR01 (42.51c/km).
2*42.51/(32*0,57-2*2.00)=6.0
Maybe add one more car to secure the income.

That's my absolute minimum amount of cars I try to pull if I want to have a chance of success. This works fine if the train travels approximately shortest possible route (delta x + delta y) km.

Paper has been the hardest for me to transport with profit, but occasionally I'm lucky enough to cover the costs by combining rail cars. I once had the luxury of watching my trains pull steel and empty paper cars uphill and bring paper and empty steel cars downhill to a harbor. That train ended well up covering both operating costs and the rail maintenance.

I think someone already mentioned to be careful not to overdo with the platforms. When things get really wild, I find myself calculating backwards from the end consumer demand all the way down to the raw materials required, checking the distances, approximating capacities per month and set up a train that will both create profit and move constantly (and kind of secretly hating myself for doing it). In the long run, when the stocks pile up, there's only certain amount of profit you can steadily extract from a given route (based on the end-user demand), after that point, all excess platforms are just -960 credits per year.

Djes

[Arkamaic]

Djes,

I have a question with your formula.

(32*0,57-2*2.00)

I understand subtracting the (2*2.00) becasue thats the operating cost for 2-way. But why the (32*0,) and why 57 instead of .57??

Ark

[Colin]

Djes,

I have a question with your formula.

(32*0,57-2*2.00)

I understand subtracting the (2*2.00) becasue thats the operating cost for 2-way. But why the (32*0,) and why 57 instead of .57??

Ark

I would say off hand that it's just a typo. (should have been a stop not a comma)

[Arkamaic]

Ahh haha that makes sense now =)

Thanks. Sorry I mis-read it.

[Colin]

This large and probably un-realistic Iron Foundry Complex delivers thousands of tons of steel to two trains that arrive and depart virtually straight away. They still don't make a profit.

[yoshi]

This large and probably un-realistic Iron Foundry Complex delivers thousands of tons of steel to two trains that arrive and depart virtually straight away. They still don't make a profit.

That's because you are using BR103, which is a high-speed passenger locomotive. You need to choose a cheaper (and of course slower) locomotive, as the speed bonus for steel is not so high as that for passengers. Also, waiting time at statioins actually doesn't cost any cents.

[Colin]

Thanks Yoshi, I'll change the engines and see what happens.

[gauthier]

I made this save and I can't make protifable trains too.
With other versions I made worse and it was profitable.
Simutrans became a few hard  :'(

http://dodownload.filefront.com/11685388//53b7e5f22ba275b28f387858130448e50cfb7170c4c4908961154354857738b58f1ae5d928714ebe

[yoshi]

I made this save and I can't make protifable trains too.

Which trains are you referring to? All trains seem to make profit... By the way, it's a good idea to write the pak set and version of Simutrans when uploading a savegame.


*Edit*
OK, you seem to make a loss in total, this is just because the maintenance cost is almost as high as your revenue. You need to cut down unnecessary tracks, especially, unnecessary bridges and tunnels. Also, most stations don't have capability to handle passengers. This is the reason that you cannot carry passengers between industries and cities.

[gauthier]

thank you  I will try

[DanteLives]

Thanks for all the replies.  Particularly the computation for figuring out profit potential.  It seems that the answer to my difficulties was to select the right goods.  On my game I gave up on transporting wood and paper by train.  Then I created an oil run to a chemical plant.  That really boosted my profits so now I think I've got enough steady profits to build up a passenger network.

[Colin]

  so now I think I've got enough steady profits to build up a passenger network.

Actually you'd be better off running a passenger network first, especially a high speed one. These generate enormous profits, if you have enough stations.

I usually start with 25 towns and build a circular up line, and a circular down line. Not all my towns are linked by the high speed network. Some of the out of the way towns are linked by Air, Boat, or single line trains, which run both ways on the same tracks.

I set my factories to start building at a population of 16000. That's because I build my own factories once my passenger lines are creating a profit. I also increase my population in each town to around 7000, and establish tram routes in all of them.

I'll post a screenshot of a station layout if you like. There used to be some on the old forum, but I don't know if they have been brought over to this one.

[DanteLives]

Strange. Under 88.10.5 I'd start games with passenger networks first.  Under that version I could make a decent profit starting out by building a bus network within the two or three largest cities on the map and then connecting them with a train route. However, when I attempted to start a game the same way in 100.00 I found that my passenger train was not making a profit.  So that's why this time I've started with industry.

[Combuijs]

Under 88.10.5 I'd start games with passenger networks first.  Under that version I could make a decent profit

In between these versions the game has been made harder, I think. Still, a big circle bus line (clockwise and counter clockwise) connecting most of the cities will make a decent profit quite soon, especially when you use the public roads. By the time you need 8 busses you can start thinking of building a fast circular railroad. In Pak64 at least. Other paks might be a bit different.

[Colin]

Well my profit at the moment is $1,491,570.51. I now have 6 Tigress trains running all full, 3 clockwise 3 anticlockwise. I've got 1 Airbus 380, 1 Lockheed Tristar, 6 Steamers and 50 trams all  running full. I'm playing PAK64.100 r2000. So I don't know what you guys are doing.

I've also got a freight transport system with Iron Foundr's, Food Processing Plants, Cannery's, Fish Farms, Cattle Stations, Grain Farms and Mills, Oil Rigs, and Refinery's (Plastic). Some are making a profit, some not.

[gauthier]

I disagree make the game harder, it allows less possibilities for network. If all savegames contain circular bus/train lines, it will be quickly boring.
And for goods ? Are we condamned to transport only oil ?
Make several difficulty levels would be better. It could be chosen in generating a map.

[Colin]

And for goods ? Are we condemned to transport only oil ?

You obviously didn't read my last post properly.

I've also got a freight transport system with.

Iron Foundry's, Food Processing Plants, Cannery's, Fish Farms, Cattle Stations, Grain Farms and Mills, Oil Rigs, and Refinery's (Plastic).

What part of that did you not  see?

[gauthier]

I have a savegame where I transport all of this goods, most of industries have electricity ...
I'll try begin a savegame with only oil industries.

[ohmohm]

I play in pak64 and always use "Garratt". It always makes profit.

[Colin]

@gauthier.

When you answer a post could you please either enter a quote from that post or put an @ followed by the name of the post author. Just so we know who you are answering.

Thanks.

[gauthier]

sorry I forgot it