The International Simutrans Forum

Community => Simutrans Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: LeifInge on June 15, 2009, 10:07:54 AM

Title: How do you organize your network?
Post by: LeifInge on June 15, 2009, 10:07:54 AM
I find my self to allways follow the same way of organisation when building my network.
In the BBBR thread I describe my network like this:

I have in many ways three layers.
- First there is the local busses, I'm trying to have a local busnetwork to ensure that the whole village is covered stations. These lines offen have a maximum off 4 or 5 stops. If they get much bigger I'll split them. The layout is varying, either circular or linear, depending on the form of the city. In each city I got one Main Stop, which is the startingpoint for my next "layer" From the main stop I also have tourism and commute busses to nearby industries and attractions.

- Second I've got intercity buslines, I allways make these between two cities, never more than that. These goes between each city main stop. And directs people to regional hubs.

- Third I have the main lines, these are offen railroads. These are key lines which moves large numbers of people between regions. All these main lines meet in the main hub.

This is a shorter verision, the whole description, with examples are found here:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2176.msg23267#msg23267 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2176.msg23267#msg23267)

So how do you organize your network?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: vilvoh on June 15, 2009, 10:15:40 AM
Related topic from the archive about how to arrange bus routes within a city (http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/07816.0/index.html).
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: jamespetts on June 15, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
One thing that interests me is whether the changes to routing and revenue calculation in Simutrans-Experimental makes a difference to the best way of organising 'bus routes, and, in particular, whether the importance of transportation speed  means that, especially where there are rival operators within a town, a larger number of more direct routes with a few 'buses each would be preferable to a smaller number of circular routes with many 'buses each. Certainly, the former way of doing things is closer to reality (fortunately for those who use 'buses!).
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Combuijs on June 15, 2009, 12:53:50 PM
I organize my passengers/mail network more or less the same as you do. Depending on map size there could only be 2 levels.

Goods transport I organize in the same way as you do with passengers. Every city gets its own "transfer" station. City goods are transported by trucks (sometimes by underground train) from and to these stations. Regional goods are transported by train (sometimes by ship) from and to these stations. If the map is big then there are national "transfer" stations, which transport goods between national stations and between national and city stations (by train or ship). On heavy developed maps these national connections are very profitable as there is often a return load available.

I usually play pak128 which is train-oriented. At the moment I'm playing pak96.comic with only a (dense) passenger network in three levels.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Severous on June 15, 2009, 06:56:03 PM
Hi

My first game of Simutrans

V102 Pak64 Year 1800..1815 Timeline on.

Limited transport options.
Frieght (Wood & Planks) – Road (Ox pulled carts)
Passengers & Mail – Road or Ship (Horse pulled stagecoach/mail or Sailing ships)

I have tried various things but the model now is:

Freight
-   Never connect an industry chain directly together.
-   Always via a stop/station I call a 'warehouse'.
-   E.g.  Forest>Warehouse1>Sawmill>Warehouse1>Materialswholsaler
-   The warehouse regulates the flow of wood or planks to the sawmill or materialswholesaler, ensuring it doesn't supply too much.
-   The forest and sawmill produce constantly without overproduction. 
-   Warehouse1 approaches 100,000 of stockpiled wood. Wood continues to arrive in the warehouse faster than the sawmill needs it.
-   New industries are either added to the existing warehouse or a new warehouse is created.
-   Warehouses are linked to each other. Some around a single city, others intercity
-   The links between warehouses are 2 to 6 parallel roads full of ox pulled carts.
-   250 convoys on some roads.
-   Biggest route has 5 roads each 200+ convoy's. 1000 convoys in total.
-   Loaded in both directions in most cases. Route is simple there and back.
-   Materialswholsalers in cities that lack industry have their own warehouse for stockpiling planks arriving from distant warehouses. The carts bringing those supplies have to make return trips to the main warehouse empty. I did play for a while with the line set up to send the vehicle into the depot after delivery. Ie use a vehicle only once.
-   Keep freight out of the city. Ox carts don't mix well with passenger coaches.

Passenger
-   Lots of stagecoaches within the city.
-   Many lines. Each line has two stops only. One or more coach per line
-   All connect to the main city station. Many stops make up the main station
-   All passengers within a city move into the centre and out again.
-   For outlaying areas like timber industry there is one bus with multiple stops.
-   Intercity Ships connect the main city stops via River/ Canal connections
-   All 600+ ships are on one line which is a long loop serving all cities and outlaying tourist locations.
-   Passengers have to use this loop as there is no other route. Huge money earner.
-   Currently moving to a new set up where an island in the centre of the inland sea becomes a central hub. Multiple lines will bring passengers and mail here from the cities.  No passengers move city to city. All will go via the central hub. Efficient. Not so much money to be made but necessary to cut the number of ships and improve game performance.

Once my shipping hub is up and running I will take another look at transport coverage in the cities.  I've ignored them for years so much new building is outside of stations.  There are tons of potential new customers.  It's hard to keep all the passengers moving with just horse drawn stagecoaches. 

A good look at that post mentioned above is called for. The one with the city layout in the archive. (thanks for that link).  I think what I most need is the detail tactics for stop placement and city planning.  4x4 blocks..3x3 blocks..whats best...how to plan a city roads and place stops. 

Sev
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Combuijs on June 15, 2009, 09:14:45 PM
Good heavens, you must have thousands of convoys running. Isn't Simutrans a little bit sluggish then?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: prissi on June 15, 2009, 09:19:34 PM
On normal computer with 512*512 map simutrans should handle about 8000 convois before you need to reduce the frame rate. With about 2000 convois you will be left in fast forward at a factor of 10 or so.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Severous on June 16, 2009, 06:47:00 PM
A few screenshots:

Early in the game I was using stagecoaches for intercity transport of passengers.  Being a big map with few cities the distance was long. The road was routed to take advantage of all tourist attractions on the way.
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7233/simscr02.th.png) (http://img35.imageshack.us/my.php?image=simscr02.png)

By 1815 (15years of play) and the network is clearly visible.  5000+ vehicles mean many yellow dots. Enough to see the routes on land and at sea/river
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8366/simscr07.th.png) (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=simscr07.png)

Reorganising my ships.  I removed 4 stops from the 18 stop route. This resulted in all the ships that had previously been sailing to stops 15>16>17>18 all now rerouted to stop 14.  It was a bit busy.  Good job theres no collision detection.  :)
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1118/simscr08.th.png) (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=simscr08.png)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: VS on June 16, 2009, 08:17:37 PM
Oh. My. God.

"Enough to see the routes on land and at sea/river" describes these pictures about right.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Lmallet on June 16, 2009, 09:13:15 PM
Quote from: VS on June 16, 2009, 08:17:37 PM
Oh. My. God.

"Enough to see the routes on land and at sea/river" describes these pictures about right.
I can still see the dots when I close my eyes :)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: IgorEliezer on June 16, 2009, 09:47:05 PM
Quote from: VS on June 16, 2009, 08:17:37 PM"Enough to see the routes on land and at sea/river" describes these pictures about right.
I wonder: How would captains and horsemen behave during a traffic jam?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: jamespetts on June 16, 2009, 09:48:33 PM
Sea rage? ;-)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on June 21, 2009, 01:28:45 AM
I'm principally building a tram line first,between all cities and with much stations(which get overcrowded after 1 month),making very much profit.
I am not focusing on bringing goods from one destination to the other(it brings nearly no profit in pak128),and I don't even try to carry mail.

EDIT:OH......MY.........GOD!!! * falls *

PS:"PIRATES!OUTLAWS!" Does this describe it right,IgorTekton?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: waerth on June 22, 2009, 11:50:27 AM
I usually end up doing the following.

I play 128 and I only transport pax. I love huge maps so I currently have a 2000 by 1000 px map (approx) with 300 towns, I never manage to connect all places though I have connected 40 towns at the moment,

I visualize regions. One central city (usually the biggest but not always if another place lines up better for interregional traffic, sometimes because of distance the region will only contain the one town) where I have a central station. This central station is usually located outside of the city in an area where there is enough room for future expansion. From this central station I connect the surrounding places and the central city. I start with buslines and upgrade them depending on passenger demand to trams or raillines with 110 km/h speed (to simulate the urban railnetworks). In the cities/towns I have a bushub near the townhall which connects to either the regional central station, or if a city has grown big enough it will connect to a local central station which connects to regional level. Huge cities will get multiple bushubs interconnected by trams or metro, connected through to the central station and attractions.

On top of these local and regional networks there is an interregional service with fast trains (Though they start out as interregional buslines usually)

Waerth
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on June 22, 2009, 01:35:35 PM
*Asks stupidly:*How can I build a metro?

PS:Yes,I know what that is.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Rohal on June 22, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
Hi Matthi205,

use the tunnel icon and press ctrl ( on german Keyboards it is Strg) while clicking on the tracktile where the tunnel should start, this will give you just an tunnel entrance.
Now you change to underground mode with clicking shift+u.
With clicking on the tunnel icon and then clicking on thwe track after the tunnelentrance you can build underground rails and stations. So you have got a metro.

Greets

Rohal
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: waerth on June 22, 2009, 04:31:41 PM
First you have to build a tunnel entrance ... you do not need to build the whole tunnel. Do this by laying rails (or road) on a slope. Then press CTRL+the tunnel symbol and you have an entrance. After that press shift+U and you are in the underground mode and can build your network.

I also believe it is now possible to build multilayered underground but I still need to figure out how this works ...

Waerth
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: mjhn on June 22, 2009, 05:43:23 PM
Multilayered underground:
Is as easy as having entry points on different levels (I understand there to be plans to allow for underground slopes in the future, but this may or may not happen). It is also as difficult as trying to work out what square the cursor is on when it is at ground level two or three levels above the track. This second point is being dealt with by the new underground mode, but I am not sure as to the status of that.

My network schemes
I start with building lines for the initial industries. If one of the rail routes connects two towns, I run a passenger train (I generally don't run passenger busses as I have a 2048x1536 map with 48 towns) once I have a good initial income, I then start to complete my rail lines, aiming for around 1/6th of the towns being 'hubs' where multiple routes meet, and having express train between them. On a line between two of the hubs, I have two local lines, each covering one half of the route, and stopping at all stations.

At least, that is the theory. In practise I have semi-fast trains, which connect some stations along a portion of a route, branch lines which connect to small towns not on a direct route between two hubs, and 'sort-f hubs' which are the end of one route, but in the middle of another. I also end up with goods-only bypass lines, passenger-only bypass lines 6-track main lines which cannot cope with the traffic level, and a 7 platform station at a relatively small town (at one end of the platform there is a junction where a six-track main line and a 4-track main line join). Within towns there are multiple stations on the main line through (with platforms off the main line). These are served by the local trains. Froms these stations I have mostly trams (I started my current train with pak128-gb before the omnibusses became available), plus some busses and even some monorails connecting outlying sections of the town, but if the bus or trams routes become too long, I build inner-city railways in the longest directions to reduce the length of the tram and bus routes.
Severous: I am impressed. I only have 1200 vehicles (but I do have 600 lines, and many of my trains have 15 carriages or 22 wagons)

I'd post some pictures, but I have no current access to somewhere to store them.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Rohal on June 22, 2009, 05:54:14 PM
Hi mjhn,

you can upload pictures and savegames to http://files.simutrans-germany.com/ (http://files.simutrans-germany.com/).
Just use your forum nick and password to lockin.

Greets

Rohal
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ariarinen on June 22, 2009, 07:13:26 PM
My Freight network are hub based, resources might be transported directly if they are close to the factory, but otherwise factory - hub - final consumer. Air and Shipping done in the same way.   

Passenger: Large bus network, up to 25 stops per line and 45 buses per line, and smaller lines to important places and hubs, air, I have a few large hubs with wide-body planes and smaller airports with short-haul plans.

Mail: Is bad business, I stay out.
     
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on June 23, 2009, 02:26:37 AM
CTRL?Huh,I don't seem to have such a key on my keyboard (maybe because it's from apple?)

Ah,only windows comps have it!Why ? ???

PS:Transporting mail only gives profit if combined with passengers or goods and between bigger cities (min.4000 people)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Dwachs on June 23, 2009, 05:17:39 AM
Quote from: Matthi205 on June 23, 2009, 02:26:37 AM
CTRL?Huh,I don't seem to have such a key on my keyboard (maybe because it's from apple?)

Ah,only windows comps have it!Why ? ???
does your special apple-key work (instead of CTRL)?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: gerw on June 23, 2009, 06:42:12 AM
Quote from: Matthi205 on June 23, 2009, 02:26:37 AM
CTRL?Huh,I don't seem to have such a key on my keyboard (maybe because it's from apple?)
If I remember correctly, also apples have a ctrl-key. May it's called 'control' (https://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg (https://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg)). But maybe this doesn't work, since control+left click simulates a right click (apples mice doesn't have a right button...)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: vilvoh on June 23, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
Another related topic from the archive called Organizing and making money with your transport network (http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/07359.0/index.html). It's written in portuguesse by IgorTekton, but It contains several interesting diagrams about possible tranport networks layouts.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ariarinen on June 23, 2009, 02:47:21 PM
Quote from: Matthi205 on June 23, 2009, 02:26:37 AM
PS:Transporting mail only gives profit if combined with passengers or goods and between bigger cities (min.4000 people)
I noticed that and that's why I opt out. I'm experimenting with it now, by letting a dummy player do all the city lines and I'm concentrating on getting the mails out to other city's from my hubs, but the margins are still to low for me.   
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on June 24, 2009, 02:30:41 AM
I didn't try.I played on the computer of my mom.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: mjhn on June 25, 2009, 07:23:00 PM
Ok I have now got some screenshot.
First the map of my network showing how large in scale it is:
(http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/simscr44.png)

This is then divided into the routes shown on this diagrammatic map:
(http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Diagrammatic.png)

The key of the map is that thicker lines indicate major routes, divided into express trains directly between nodes (marked as circles) and local routes, stopping at each minor station (marked with bars of the side of the track). Narrow lines are banches, with a single route running between two places, stopping at the minor stops along the route. Black lines indicate freight only lines. These are mainly to access industries away from the main line. In the middle of the map, however, there is a goods-only line avoiding the main busy route, and which carries large amounts of steel and wood.

My games set-up is a map sized 2048x1536, with a station range of 6, and a passenger factor of 2. I find this is effective at spreading the game out, and making stations look better proportioned with the rest of the map, especially with pak128.britain, as the trains are significantly longer than in pak64 or pak 128 (my station platforms are up to 12 square long (class A3+15 carriages), rather than 5 or 6(BR218+7 carriages).
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Combuijs on June 25, 2009, 09:59:58 PM
Lovely complicated network, mjhn! Did you also write a timetable book?  ;D
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: jamespetts on June 25, 2009, 10:17:28 PM
Hmm, how do people from the city in the very top right get to the one just underneath it...?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Severous on June 25, 2009, 10:31:54 PM
That does look impressive mjhn.  Any nice looking screenshots with long trains?

Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: wing044 on June 26, 2009, 05:50:07 AM
When I first started with Simutrans I used a pattern of regional train -> local train -> bus.

But as the cities and my network expends, the distinction has blurred. Now I'm finding it harder and harder to make sense of it. What I'm trying to do now is to have as many direct connection as possible.

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3284/city1.gif)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Combuijs on June 26, 2009, 06:42:44 AM
QuoteHmm, how do people from the city in the very top right get to the one just underneath it...?

By the light blue and red line. Only one transfer. A relaxed journey, though on bike it might be faster. And healthier.  ;D
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: mjhn on June 26, 2009, 05:20:12 PM
I am afraid getting between the two cities in the top right is not that simple, as they are both on branch lines. The route is more along the lines of light blue branch line, light blue main line, red branch line, second red branch line. The red line actually splits into two at the right hand end, serving the  two cities there. the blue line connects to one of them, and the branch line to the other city in the top right connects the the other. I really need a direct connection, don't I?

Wing044: That is a seriously busy map. What do the really large stations look like?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on June 27, 2009, 12:42:14 AM
Wing44,if you want to get direct connections,build a underground line.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Helian on July 09, 2009, 07:13:59 PM
I haven't found a decent way of organizing people transport yet.  The only good thing I do there is creating bus loops hitting the same spots in opposite directions.  This works great on a small scale to prevent queuing, but on a large scale just has two separate ques.

I have however found an interesting way of doing freight.  It entails two one way tracks with a 1 square space between forming a giant loop backbone.  All stations are connected via an overpass for the far rail, and usually just a flat connection to the near rail.  The whole point is to prevent any trains that are stopping from interfering with the traffic on the backbone, and things can get rather elaborate at high traffic stops, like a refinery that has all three products used.  The end result can be spectacular in it's own way, I have gotten a backbone that at it's busiest stretch was about 50% train (one train length between each train) all going at top speed with no pause.  
The main problem with this is that the trains do not take direct routs, so they almost always take significantly longer and have more maintenance.  I have yet to get enough people traffic for this to be efficient.  I always go for the speed bonus with people, so even the small trains have a high overall capacity, this works a lot better for many slow trains.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Matthi205 on July 10, 2009, 02:56:54 AM
Haven't thinked of that yet... good idea.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: lemansgranprix on July 30, 2009, 09:07:19 PM
So...this might be geeking out too much, but say I'm at work – (cough, clearing throat).  I print out the map of the city I'm planning on building and I start tying cities together with a passenger rail line. 

I try and map out rail lines, no more than 5 cities together, and then have them connect to major hubs (the largest cities on the map).  Once I get all of the hubs and cluster-of-5 cities together, I begin laying my tracks in-game.

It usually ends up working surprisingly well, and makes for more fun in my cubicle.  :)
Then in each city, I cover the entire city with bus lines that go to each train station.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: MeHazTrainz on September 25, 2010, 03:39:28 AM
Ok.
Local Transportation
First I make my local bus...
When the stops get bussy i have a metro in my main cities.

City to City
I always make my big highspeed freeways. and I use the fastest busses. But when I have to connect big cities I often use Airplanes... and when I have small cities pop. 20,000 I make a Train Station just by the City Hall.

Goods and Freight
What I do is
Airplanes: Goods and Cooled Goods
Trains: Raw materials
Trucks: Factory to shops

No SShots
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Václav on October 22, 2010, 08:21:23 PM
City mass transit:
trolleybuses and (after some time) underground trains

Short-track cities connection:
mostly monorail or trams

Long-track cities connection:
mostly trains (classical or maglev)
sometime they are supplied by planes or ships

Short freight transportation:
almost ever trucks

Long freight transportation:
mostly trains (classical or maglev)
some connections are served by planes or ships

Long-track intercity web building is based on principles forced in TransportGiant - it means A -> B, B -> C, C -> D ..., A -> G, G -> H and so on... Mainly for passengers and post it is the best way I got to know - while it can be a bit uncomfortable way
City mass transit (and short-track intercity) lines are built in closed circles
Passenger/post airports are sticked to main railway stations in cities; by planes are connected by those cities which cannot be connected directly between each other - or they are connected via at least one another city
Freight airports are built very rarely due to very difficult earning of money by this way
Ships connects those places (factories or cities) which are accessible from free water or without building long water canals
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: LNBC on October 23, 2010, 12:49:51 PM
My networking usually done in this way:
Within the Town: a Circular Bus route to the nearest railway station is a MUST.
Also for those suburb-factory lines.
(Underground/overground railways existed only for those overcrowded urban areas,
and based on bus stops for an easy access. Of course, to the nearest railway stations.)

Between the towns:
Well - depends on the following:
(1) Are those towns jointed into a single urban areas? If yes - treated as a single town:
but this time I may needed a few numbers of buslines, or even a subway (MTR).
(2) Does towns laid out within a circle? It is quite assured that circular lines did generate much profit that the single lined lines did.
(3) Intercity trains always in 12 cars (with a mail car: always repaked from the original.) and runs in circults (with singals, we can put up to 20 trains on a single line!)
(4) NO sharing tracks between lines! (If a railway line fails, you might be panic for handling 2 lines trains - 40 to 50 trains - at once!)
(5) Share Freight Trains ONLY when the Passenger Trains run at the same top speed - or either of them will block the another IF the Freight Trains goes slower.
(6) Piers and Airports always linked with any railway system - except the crowded urban centres.

DON'T to me:
(1) Never use a tram - as I got handful of double-deckers and bandies to do the same job.
Also building trams tracks, setting power lines cost too much to be done.
(That's why I think a overhead railway or subway did better - they don't share space with the road traffic!)
(2) Never building intercity trains with slow vehicles (only for those timeline-free players) -
30 Shinkansen bullet trains does the job of 50 normal passenger trains with ease.
Yes - it's so expensive, but as the railway system covered all of the town in the map -
the first train can earn a million Cr within one single go-and-return trip. A train saved is a faster service you can offer.
(3) No Long railways for freight - instead, I get a existed station upgraded into a hub, and let another freight train running direct to the factories. Or Huge Oil Tankers for those productive oil rigs to the thirsty refineries and/or oil power stations DIRECTLY.

At last - I love suburbs expanding from the town centres - so I prefer get a busline from stations to popular tourist spots (or simply a housing estate) afar from the tracks (with a station built for the interchange.)

PS Cable Tram is the only tram I would like to apply - in mountainous regions only.
So, I need to show this exception at the end.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Defacto on March 31, 2011, 10:03:34 PM
All these maps, screens, and plans sound awesome, but how do you start up your network? I can never get enough profit to stay in business...
so how do you start when you develop those massive maps?

By the way, i have pak128. If i have understood things correctly, the economy works different in the packs
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: MeHazTrainz on April 01, 2011, 07:01:11 AM
Make a connection with a cheap vehicle in a short distance and make it 50% to 80% full..
Then add another stop... and just stay like that adding stops and vehicles. Well thats my way of doing it :)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Defacto on April 01, 2011, 09:45:04 AM
I see... should i add more stops when the first one gets full (truck jam, not too many resources that is)

And do you use dirt roads? Is the speed bonus from going 50km/h enough to make, say gravel roads economy viable when compared to dirt roads?
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: VS on April 01, 2011, 10:52:41 AM
Myself, I use gravel everywhere. Dirt is just too slow for anything :P

The faster your vehicles move, the more cargo can they move. So, one question is, how long do they wait for loading? If actual movement is only a smaller part of total time, you can get away with worse ways. To a certain point, time spent driving will just subtract from waiting.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: electroduck on April 04, 2011, 12:11:00 AM
(http://www.electroduck.com/images/simutrans/network.png) (http://www.electroduck.com/images/simutrans/network.png)
Please note that this is in 2013
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on April 04, 2011, 08:39:44 AM
I usually play pak128.japan, with rather big cities. Every bigger city (at least 50k) get's a subway system (110km/h, mostly underground, 4-6 station tiles) for inner city transport + commuter rails (120km/h, mostly overground, 6 station tiles) to the suburbs (smaller cities around it). The big cities all get one Shinkansen Terminal which connect the cities. The Shinkansen lines always have only two stops, eg they only connect two cities. The commuter/subway lines are usually quite long.

The suburbs usually have a bus system or some tram lines, depending on their size. Some suburbs are only the commuter rail station though.

Shinkansen tracks are always as straight as possible and don't have changes in elevation whenever possible, which makes their construction more expensive but over time creates more revenue.

Commuter rails are usually overground between cities, but sometimes switch to underground in cities. They usually don't go to deep into the main city they connect, unless they share tracks with a subway line inside the city. Commuter rail lines never connect 'big' cities that are big enough to have a Shinkansen line connecting to them.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: T0m4S on April 04, 2011, 09:39:13 AM
QuoteI usually play pak128.japan, with rather big cities. Every bigger city (at least 50k) get's a subway system (110km/h, mostly underground, 4-6 station tiles) for inner city transport + commuter rails (120km/h, mostly overground, 6 station tiles) to the suburbs (smaller cities around it). The big cities all get one Shinkansen Terminal which connect the cities. The Shinkansen lines always have only two stops, eg they only connect two cities. The commuter/subway lines are usually quite long.

The suburbs usually have a bus system or some tram lines, depending on their size. Some suburbs are only the commuter rail station though.

Shinkansen tracks are always as straight as possible and don't have changes in elevation whenever possible, which makes their construction more expensive but over time creates more revenue.

Commuter rails are usually overground between cities, but sometimes switch to underground in cities. They usually don't go to deep into the main city they connect, unless they share tracks with a subway line inside the city. Commuter rail lines never connect 'big' cities that are big enough to have a Shinkansen line connecting to them.

Interesting. Could you please post a screenshot or even better a savegame, I'm always interested in optimizing my network and yours looks like an interesting idea :)

Thanks.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on April 04, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
I'll post my latest savegame, where I actually started to use track sharing more often. Before I used to have 99% separate tracks for all lines, in this latest game I started sharing a lot of tracks (up to 3 lines using the same tracks in some parts, which is a lot for me), and I even started to allow Shinkansen tracks to cross (before it was a strict rule that shinkansen tracks have no intersections or anything unless right before the station to merge tracks). Turned out pretty well (especially since the Shinkansen Lines are not as busy as usual, 1 line with 2 trains @ 23 cars, 1 line with 2 trains @ 21 cars, 1 line with 1 train @23 cars).

The one thing I hate about simutrans due to my style of playing though is that I cannot go up/down levels underground, leading to weird holes in the ground where a tunnel changes it's level :(
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: prissi on April 04, 2011, 02:21:24 PM
Up down levels is implemented since half a year at least. Just use the elevate land tool on your tunnels ...
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on April 04, 2011, 02:41:15 PM
Quote from: prissi on April 04, 2011, 02:21:24 PM
Up down levels is implemented since half a year at least. Just use the elevate land tool on your tunnels ...

in experimental or 'normal' simutrans? Are you telling me I did ugly bypasses for half a year for nothing now?

Seriously though, that's awesome!
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Combuijs on April 04, 2011, 06:17:03 PM
QuoteIn experimental or 'normal' simutrans?

Both! Welcome to the everchanging world of Simutrans...
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: T0m4S on April 04, 2011, 10:07:44 PM
Quote from: ojii on April 04, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
I'll post my latest savegame, where I actually started to use track sharing more often. Before I used to have 99% separate tracks for all lines, in this latest game I started sharing a lot of tracks (up to 3 lines using the same tracks in some parts, which is a lot for me), and I even started to allow Shinkansen tracks to cross (before it was a strict rule that shinkansen tracks have no intersections or anything unless right before the station to merge tracks). Turned out pretty well (especially since the Shinkansen Lines are not as busy as usual, 1 line with 2 trains @ 23 cars, 1 line with 2 trains @ 21 cars, 1 line with 1 train @23 cars).

Thanks I'll wait for it :)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: uktrain on May 03, 2011, 07:31:24 AM
For me,I'll first build bus lines within the city in form of mass transit.Number of lines depends on the size of a city I begin with.Then I will build intercity transport.For land/water transport, I'll connect the nearest city.If air, then I'll connect one with large population.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Václav on May 03, 2011, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: electroduck on April 04, 2011, 12:11:00 AM
(http://www.electroduck.com/images/simutrans/network.png) (http://www.electroduck.com/images/simutrans/network.png)
This is good - but it has one weak point - it leads to huge overloading of some stations - if you did not disable this. So capacity of station in any city may be (for example) eight thousand people but its real usage may be one million or so.  ;)

So then building of direct connections between cities is in need - and you may harvest (word earn is very inexact - for amount of earnt money) more money.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on May 03, 2011, 11:52:31 AM
Tried to use graphviz/dot to display my network graph, but it kinda failed :D

This it what it spit out for my main city (cluster):
(http://ubuntuone.com/p/qSr/) (http://ubuntuone.com/p/qSr/)

Especially the red line (Chuosen) looks really weird, I'll see if I find a better way to do this (if anyone knows good apps to do network diagrams, that run on linux, please tell me), just thought I'd upload this as a teaser...

(Also: tried to do display my whole network, not just that city, but it refused to convert such a complex graph to png ;-)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: tuxianer1988 on May 03, 2011, 12:47:42 PM
You might want to try the program "dia" runs on Linux :)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Erik on May 03, 2011, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: tuxianer1988 on May 03, 2011, 12:47:42 PM
You might want to try the program "dia" runs on Linux :)

Nice, Lately I was looking for such program.  :D
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: sdog on May 03, 2011, 04:31:41 PM
ojii, try to use neato of the graphviz program. your difficulties likely come from graphviz (dotty?) trying to make a directed digraph. A non directed graph should do the trick nicely. only a few changes in the source file (digraph{} to graph{}; -> to --) should be required.

output for large graphs works very well in svg. You can also get rid of the node labels, in svg you can get the name from a mouseover. see the thread below for an example http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6375.0
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on May 04, 2011, 01:45:49 PM
Meh I figured it's probably easiest if I just write a little network-graph-generating app myself. Almost got it to properly output things:

- - - - - - - - - X X X X X - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- X - - - - - - - X X X X X X X X -
- - X - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- - - X - - - - - - - X - - X - - -
- - - - X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
- - - X - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- - X - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- X - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
X - - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - -


(For some reason North/South is swapped, but I'll figure out what goes wrong there). (Edit: fixed)

It would currently break if you had line 1 go A->B->C and line 2 go A->C, but I'll figure that out ;-).

For the curious, I generate the graph from an input file that looks like this:

name: Sakai Metro
lines:
   - name: Aomorisen
     color: darkgreen
     stations: Sagamihara - A16 v> Sagamihara - A15 v> Sagamihara - A14 v> Aomori Eki > Aomori - A12 / U12 > Nagasaki Eki > Hamamatsu Eki > Okayama - A11 / U11 > Okayama - A10 / U10 > Okayama - O1 / A9 / U9 > Okayama Eki (Sakai Shinkansen Terminal) > Nishi-Okayama Eki > Higashi-Sakai Eki > Sakai Eki > Sakai T6 / A4 / U4 > Takamatsu - T7 / A3 / U3 > Takamatsu Eki > Takamatsu - T9 / A1 / U1
   - name: Utsunomiyasen
     color: green
     stations: Utsunomiya - U18 ^> Utsunomiya - U17 ^> Utsunomiya - U16 ^> Aomori - U15 ^v> Aomori - U14 ^> Aomori Eki > Aomori - A12 / U12 > Nagasaki Eki > Hamamatsu Eki > Okayama - A11 / U11 > Okayama - A10 / U10 > Okayama - O1 / A9 / U9 > Okayama Eki (Sakai Shinkansen Terminal) > Nishi-Okayama Eki > Higashi-Sakai Eki > Sakai Eki > Sakai T6 / A4 / U4 > Takamatsu - T7 / A3 / U3 > Takamatsu Eki > Takamatsu - T9 / A1 / U1
   - name: Kakogawasen
     color: saddlebrown
     stations: Toyota - K1 > Toyota - K2 > Toyota - K3 / MM6 > Nishi-Toyota Eki > Toyota - K5 > Higashi-Toyota Eki > Sakai - K7 > Kakogawa Eki  
   - name: Nanbokusen
     color: turquoise
     stations: Toyota - N1 > Toyota - N2 / TR8 > Toyota - N3 > Naka-Toyota Eki > Toyota - N5 v> Toyota - N6 v Higashi-Toyota Eki v Sakai - N8 / SM5 / S8 v Sakai - N9 / S7 v Sakai Eki v Sakai - N11 v Sakai - N12 v Kawaguchi - N13 v Kawaguchi - N14 v Kawaguchi - N15 v Kawaguchi Eki v Kawaguchi - N17  
   - name: Tozaisen
     color: pink
     stations: Okayama - T1 / MM1 v Okayama Eki (Sakai Shinkansen Terminal) > Nishi-Okayama Eki > Higashi-Sakai Eki > Sakai Eki > Sakai T6 / A4 / U4 > Takamatsu - T7 / A3 / U3 > Takamatsu Eki > Takamatsu - T9 / A1 / U1


You basically give a list of stations separated by 'direction symbols' which can be "^", "^>", ">", "v>", "v", "<v", "<"or "<^". The idea was to make a human readable and human writable format, and those symbols seemed rather intuitive to me. Unfortunately right now it does not support usage of those symbols (which might be especially bad for the "v") in station names, but again, I'll fix that ;-).

The code is written in Python (and will be released under BSD once it actually works) and currently only outputs ASCII, but I will write a PNG output backend (using PIL) too and possibly other output formats (SVG/HTML comes to mind).


EDIT:

Got it to output way nicer now (it now knows two types of stations: Major (where multiple lines cross, but not if the lines run in parallel, and end stations) and Normal (all the other stations):


                  X . . . .         
                            .       
  X               X . . . . X . X   
    .                       .       
      .               X     .       
        X . . . . . . X . . X . . . X
      .                     .       
    .                       .       
  .                         .       
X                           .       
                            .       
                            .       
                            X       

Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: ojii on May 06, 2011, 09:58:54 AM
I moved the discussion about network graphs to http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7271.0 (Where you can see a much nicer graph of my lines above)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: paco_m on May 11, 2011, 11:21:06 AM
I don't use predefined models for my networks;
just need a map and then I start depending on the circumstances (geography, city size, etc.), in metropolitean areas I often make something similar to a spiderweb with different and separated overland connections (might be one central rail station, one harbour and one airport) and crossconnections to near cities.
I know, it becomes complex and hard to balance but I hate hubs  ;D
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: jap train fan on May 14, 2011, 07:28:59 AM
Passenger
Trains
I have a central hub station near the centre of my map where most trains and buses leave here.
There are express lines running 300+km/h that stop only at 1 station per city
Local lines running 200+km/h stop at many stations per city
Metro style services operate between the two largest cities
there is a loop service (mostly underground) running between the two biggest cities and some factories and tourist locations[/li][/list]
Buses
For each city I have local bus, trolley bus or tram system
There is also cross city buses that run along the highways I have built to get between cities
There are some postal services
Maglev
Maglev operates both between cities (passengers and mail) and in cities (passengers only)
Freight
I have trains running the distance from producer and consumer either via special track dedicated to freight or on the normal passenger track.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: General_Submarine on June 14, 2011, 06:19:16 AM
(http://hkgupload.org/upload/images/2FT8.png)
This is my road network
For route, there are:
(Area<>Area)
7<>8
7<>8(via another road)

2<>5
2<>1
2<>3
2<>3(skip interchange station)

4<>5
4<>3
4<>2<>1
4<>2<>1(skip interchange station)

2<>5<>6<>7
4<>6<>8

thanks for reading my game with poor presentation^^
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Václav on June 14, 2011, 07:48:35 AM
Interesting but descriptions make it quite confused. I think that if you marked only stations, it would be sufficient - because almost all would be visible.
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: General_Submarine on June 14, 2011, 01:22:15 PM
(http://hkgupload.org/upload/images/39LP.png)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: Isaac_Clarke on June 16, 2011, 10:41:14 PM
Since last September I play on a map where I remake the french cities and the rail network, similar as possible to reality. Before posting somes screens and diagrams of my network of my map on this week end, I can say a little description
-For each important cities like Paris, Lyon,... i made a developped bus, metro or tram systems. The most important metro system is in paris of course with more than 9 lines.
-I've more than 500 convoys, passengers and fret confused
-Now there is approximatly 3.5M habitants with 78 cities reconstitued.
-The most importants cities are connected with freeways, TGV or classics trains network, and airplanes with a hub at Paris.

I hope you'ill like the screens I will post :)

PS: nice topic, I like to watch how others simutrans players make their owns networks. :)

EDIT: Here is a explanatory diagram of my network. What's your opinions about it?

(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/585/cartelegende.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/cartelegende.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: eekizz on October 28, 2015, 05:55:49 PM
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=14796.msg146344#msg146344

In this map, I have used couple different things, but mainly my basic network is sliced into regions.

My outercity network plan
http://imgur.com/AMKsGn7

Connecting cities:
I have one big capital, where is huge airport hub and there I have flights to couple big cities, which all have kind of international and domestic airports. International airport goes only to capital (maybe later also to other big cities) and domestic airport goes to smaller cities in same region. Then all cities I mentioned have bus terminal where all nearby cities connect to airport city. Sometimes there might be smaller transfer cities, if it woul be too far to travel from original city to airport.
I have also like to make some tests with my regions. I put around one city 20 other tiny cities and all had to have transfer in one big bus terminal and checked how all those lines could be handled by one terminal. Also one nice test was doing some kind of archipelago where goes only ferries. Transportation is very slow, but it is working.

In cities:
In cities I have central bus station (later train station) which is connected to nearby airport by bus or to nearest city, which has airport connection. First when city grows, I try to handle all with one innercity bus, and later on make other bus lines. After it get too busy in the city, I make circular tram system and even after that I move to subway.
I have also made some experiments with innercities like using canals in the city and circular maglev.

Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: eklas on November 01, 2015, 10:20:50 AM
I have a world with a large conurbation (you can check it here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=14855.0 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=14855.0)) and I've divided my transport network into four systems:

4. railways - connecting towns and the metropolis
3. regional buses - connecting villages with towns
2. city buses - connecting suburbs with downtown
1. trams/ downtown buses - operate in the city center
0. subway
In the future, there might be the fifth level, airplanes.

I don't really care about the coverage, so I have the minimum distance between two tram stops 20 blocks, between two bus stops 25 blocks and between two railway stations 65 blocks.

also, I've got a question for you, how do you name your lines?

I use numbers and then the first stop and the last one. For trams, I have numbers 1 - 59 (but now there are just lines 1, 2 and 3), for downtown buses 100 - 199, suburb buses 200 - 299, regional buses 300 - 499 and railways start with 'S' and then with a number from 1 to 99.

For example, I have the line 103 Jilmovka - Bělehradská, so that's a bus starting downtown at Jilmovka, ending uptown at Bělehradská. Or there is the line 432 Bolice, Otvovická - Kramolín, Zdechovická. So you know it starts in the town Bolice and goes to a village named Kramolín. And for trains, S1 - S9 are the main railways and S10 - S99 are the regional ones. So when you are at the Ryjice train station and you see that there are lines 'S2, S20, 421, 422, 423', it stands for three regional buses, one main railway and one local railway.

Title: Re: How do you organize your network?
Post by: sdog on November 01, 2015, 11:02:46 PM
Quote from: eklas on November 01, 2015, 10:20:50 AM
I have a world with a large conurbation [...]
+1
TIL
"A conurbation is a region comprising a number of cities, large towns, and other urban areas that, through population growth and physical expansion, have merged to form one continuous urban and industrially developed area. In most cases, a conurbation is a polycentric urban agglomeration, in which transportation has developed to link areas to create a single urban labour market or travel to work area." (from WP)