Discussion in the Bridgewater-Brunel (http://www.bridgewater-brunel.me.uk) online game about industries in the 18th century has revealed that we are lacking early heavy industries, most notably the ironworks. Steel production was rather a later thing, and only made really popular in the 1850s with the invention of the Bessemer process.
Before then, ironworks ruled the day. A single industry graphic for an early industrial revolution ironworks could encompass an industry chain taking in coal and iron ore and (or earlier versions perhaps wood and iron ore - charcoal was used in the early days) and put out hardware. The hardware shop could be backdated using the 18th century graphics.
My time is limited, so it will be a while before I get around to doing this. I have posted this here partly as a reminder to myself, but mainly to invite others to have a go at an ironworks graphic for Pak128.Britain (it would be useful both for Standard and Experimental) to improve early heavy industry.
Looked around for some background on English ironworks... found at least one good source of information and some early photos of even-by-then ancient works here (http://www.fussells.org/gallery1.html) ("The 'Fussell Country' story so far as the Fussell dynasty concerned starts with the establishment of their first ironworks at Mells in 1744 by James Fussell ...") Here's an 1880 photo of the much older mill buildings:
(http://www.fussells.org/images/101.jpg)
Using the images I created awhile back for a possible revamping of the older Mills, I have a .dat for these, with just two rotations for now (and no snow yet), ...not quite perfect, there are some alignment issues, but it's a start. Should I continue work on these?
(http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/1790Ironworks.jpg)
That's a splendid start - yes, do keep working on them. That is rather excellent, and would greatly help early heavy industry.
looks good.
I wonder, did they have glass roofs back then? Those squares on the roof look like glass roofs.
They wouldn't have been glass - those panels are far bigger than they could make glass in those days. They look like wooden hatches.
Incidentally, I am moving this thread to the Standard Pak128.Britain board, as this new industry is really equally applicable to Standard as to Experimental.
Looks great. Did you get any further with other industry graphics? Looks like there won't be any changes to the code to allow more flexible use of your tiles idea, but we could still do with more new graphics for industries from different eras.
The other industries I'd suggest from that era are military related. Armourment factories, ropeworks, all the sort of thing one needs to supply a navy that is ruling the world. :)
If there would be industries that have to be adjacent to water, or have water tiles, a shipwright or wharf shipyard could be a nice industry. Consuming very large amounts of timber and textiles until 1890 then huge amounts of steel. Extension request?
(such an industry type might also benefit other chains in other paks, i'm thinking of: fishery ports instead of the fishing grounds, long discussed export or import harbours as good sinks/sources, marinas, lighthouses and historic harbours as tourist attractions, off-shore wind farms, wave and tidal power plants.)
If feedback is positive here, i'll write an extension request.:wq
Military industries are not something I feel fit into simutrans.
Ah, but without cannon-boring technology, the piston would never have developed from the massive low-pressure pumping engines in cornish mines to the high-pressure self-propelling minature variety, would it? War drives innovation (alas). Simutrans without those industries should logically never develop the railway. Or, arguably the air industry (all those unemployed pilots post WW2...)
What's that quote about italy, war and the rennaisance, vs switzerland, peace, and the cuckoo clock? ;D
Lets assume the war industry driving the innovation of steam engines is in a different part of the simutrans-world, not covered on the map. :-)
A ropeworks is not a uniquely military industry, however; but what would consume its outputs? Does one need a string of chandlers' shops? Perhaps rope could be sold at hardware shops in the mid 19th century onwards?
I think that we should put the rope in a hardware shop as you said jamespetts, but we should also use the hardware store as an output for nails and other hardware like objects.
Quote from: jamespetts on November 26, 2012, 11:57:09 PM
A ropeworks is not a uniquely military industry, however; but what would consume its outputs? Does one need a string of chandlers' shops? Perhaps rope could be sold at hardware shops in the mid 19th century onwards?
oh, that was the reason i above suggested a new industry type to be built near water, to allow shipbuilders as consumer industry.
I quite like the idea of shipwrights.
Preliminary playable Ironworks pak here (http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/1750-ironworks.pak)
Since that uses my modular mills images, we could do several, somewhat overlapping-in-time, variations in size over the years... a 1750-1788 one-or-two tile version, a 1770-1820 four-tile version, and so on. There are no snow images, because I coded this only to be placed in temperate zones.
The fishing-port is already an industry that must sit on the water... so a shipwright should be quite possible. Know any good period drawings?
I've never seen those! So industries at the edge of water are already available in game.
Is the relevant part in the .dat file this:
climates=water
Location=Land
Yes, climates=water location=land should do the trick. The documentation here (http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_Climates) is a little outdated, suggesting that only works for attractions. But from this discussion (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=3880.msg37915) it should work for any 1x1 industry as well... should we change the wiki accordingly?
In theory I think it should work for any size building, as long as one corner is over water? I've never tried it.
The idea with the shipwrights it very good idea.
They like i.
2*1 and 3*1 should work as well, any linear shore could work. Or 1*1 with sheds coded as fields.
Quote from: wlindley on November 27, 2012, 04:02:39 PMa shipwright should be quite possible. Know any good period drawings?
There must be oil paintings of that sort of thing.
Few interesting images on this site (scroll down) http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Pinturas/RouxAntoine.htm
Portsmouth had Dry Dock(s) since 1495, so one of those might be in order?
Quote from: wlindley on November 27, 2012, 04:02:39 PM
Preliminary playable Ironworks pak here (http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/1750-ironworks.pak)
Since that uses my modular mills images, we could do several, somewhat overlapping-in-time, variations in size over the years... a 1750-1788 one-or-two tile version, a 1770-1820 four-tile version, and so on. There are no snow images, because I coded this only to be placed in temperate zones.
The fishing-port is already an industry that must sit on the water... so a shipwright should be quite possible. Know any good period drawings?
Do you have sources for that...? Shall look forward to trying it!
Quote from: Fabio on November 27, 2012, 09:27:59 PM
2*1 and 3*1 should work as well, any linear shore could work. Or 1*1 with sheds coded as fields.
Wlindley, didn't you some experiments with factory buildings coded as fields? How did that work out?
Shipwrights (and locomotive works for that matter) sound like interesting industries :) though with this discussion about water edge industries I've got the feeling I'll need to check those work with my landscape patch...
Ironworks playable .pak, source, and .dat -- all for Experimental -- are here (http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/ironworks.zip) ... might need some mods for Standard. No snow images, as I have coded it only for temperate climates... which should be relatively prototypical.
That includes the current Modular Mills images, both .png and Gimp .xcf layer files.
Thank you for that - that is rather lovely. Two small things: could the railings be a little darker, perhaps a sort of charcoal colour? Also, would it be possible to have all four rotations rather than two? Thank you!
Edit: With some modifications, I have added this to Github - but it would still be good to have the abovementioned graphical refinements. Thank you!
THank you for the Data wlindley.
Four rotations will have to wait until I redraw a few of the mills images. As for "railings" -- you mean the fence around the coal? It is currently approximately a 50% grey... I could make it more like #555 instead of #777.
Would you like a 1x3 version for 1750 and a 2x3 for 1850? One of my main goals with the modular mills images, is that the larger later factories should cover a little more ground.
Hmm - different sizes would interfere with the upgrading mechanism, so perhaps best leave that for now. But, yes, the fence could do with being a darker colour if you are able to do that. Thank you very much for this - it is most helpful.
Edit: Incidentally, I think that we shall still need snow graphics, as people can set their winter snowline anywhere if they choose.
I didn't realise larger buildings over time messed with the upgrading code - I actually thought that was the idea to get bigger industries over time. Certainly from a graphical perspective parger over time would be better.
Anyway, regarding the current images, four rotations and snow would be necessary for pakset inclusion (standard at least). If you pursue the modular idea some more, can I recommend having as many of the tiles as possible so that they can work in all 4 rotations or at least just need (individually) two rotations?
Indeed. In the mills*.png used here, I have already started moving tiles in preparation for 4 rotations... this week's project. Then on to adding snow.
I hope also to write a Perl script that will take a Gimp .xcf and automatically turn on layer groups to automatically create individual .png files... once I update the .xcf, "make" ought to be able to compute all those pesky details! I haven't plotted out the automatic .blend -> .png creator yet, though.
Interesting workflow...
Earlier industries could be surrounded by yards, which would be taken over while upgrading the factory.
Fabio
That what you here be said it a very nice idea.
Working from jamespetts's committed files, I revised the .dat to include four rotations. Furthermore the selection of mills tiles varies over time to show the growth from a 1750 low-efficiency twin hearth, to 1790 with a single hearth with larger workshop, to 1850 with a second storey on the workshop and workings buildings.
The mills1, mills2 images are slightly updated as well. Zipfile here (http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/1750-ironworks-revised.zip) includes playable .pak for the impatient among us.
Snow will have to wait until after Christmas...
(http://wlindley.com/images/simutrans/ironworks-change.jpg)
Wlindley
The Photo loks super out.
Looks good - may I ask what the deal is with the tile that appears blank in the two images currently? Might be best to fill the gap with a generic yard tile or a dump of coal/ore? Or some boxes of goods waiting for shipment away?
The latest Standard builds allow for non-rectangular industries. Perhaps it is related to that?
Since when? I thought all industries had to have the four corners defined even if they had holes in the middle.
Quote from: The Hood on December 04, 2012, 08:11:42 AM
Since when? I thought all industries had to have the four corners defined even if they had holes in the middle.
since some time. Iirc this is included in the 112 release already.
So L-shape is now allowed?
Correct
Snow images for the Mills --
(http://www.wlindley.com/images/simutrans/mills1-snow.png)
(http://www.wlindley.com/images/simutrans/mills2-snow.png)
Adding to the .dat should be fairly simple, I hope... or I can do it, just say the word.
Great! Any reason why some appear not to have snow? If you are able to do the dat in the next 12 hours it will make it into the next release.
Wooh.
That it a very good work. :thumbsup:
Try this (http://www.wlindley.com/images/simutrans/ironworks.zip) zipfile (.dat and Gimp .xcf sources included). p.s., Finished snow on one or two other buildings -- the others without snow, are currently unused.
Brilliant thanks. Did you see my post in the other thread about a dat for the pharmaceutical factory? If you get time over Christmas, it would be great if you could code up other factory graphics for the other chains. Feel free to experiment with "fields" as well - just bear in mind these don't get rotations.
Just adding this to SVN. I also decided to create a new goods type "wrought iron" which is produced by the ironworks and required by the builders' yard up to 1855. From then on Builders' yards now also accept steel.
Is this in addition to or as well as "hardware"?
The dat file says:
OutputGood[0]=hardware
OutputGood[1]=WroughtIron
in addition to
cool that the ironwork now in svn it.
thank you.
Hmm - looking at this (https://github.com/aburch/simutrans-pak128.britain/commit/da82da9ec6ff8cfdb103a9640ed6bebce504d0a8) commit, the changes to goods-128.dat seem to be missing. Would wrought iron be defined as piece goods? It would, I suppose, be finished pieces of wrought iron, rather than pig or bar iron, which would rather be bulk or long goods?
Also, I notice that you have added "chance" variables to a number of buildings - these are not used by industries in Simutrans. "Distributionweight" is used instead.
Distributionweight it that what said how often a factory on a map comes.
it that right?
Looks like I missed that - which also explains why I can't get the SVN build to work (just I'm getting a different error message than what I expected for that problem). It's going in now.
Lovely - that is helpful. However, iron ore doesn't have its own load graphics for the various wagons. Is this intended? Only steel and wood are defined as long goods (category 6). Do we need to produce new graphics for all the long goods wagons (including narrow gauge and road vehicles)? I suspect that the wood images will be used in at least some cases, as wood is defined as the 0th graphic in, for example, the 10t long wagon.
OK, I checked a few and steel was the 0th graphic so that would get used; I'm fine with that. But we will need to ensure all long graphics have steel as the 0 graphic rather than wood. I don't think we need an additional graphic for wrought iron.
Quote from: The Hood on December 22, 2012, 10:37:06 AM
OK, I checked a few and steel was the 0th graphic so that would get used; I'm fine with that. But we will need to ensure all long graphics have steel as the 0 graphic rather than wood. I don't think we need an additional graphic for wrought iron.
Hmm - isn't wrought iron significantly darker than steel...?
In any event, steel isn't the 0th graphic in, for example, wagon-long-d1.dat:
obj=vehicle
name=LongD1
#?
speed=56
copyright=James
intro_year=1855
intro_month=1
retire_year=1903
retire_month=5
waytype=track
freight=Bretter
payload=8
length=3
brake_force=0
rolling_resistance=19
#?
weight=4
cost=100000
runningcost=5
sound=-1
min_loading_time=360
max_loading_time=975
Constraint[Next][0]=any
EmptyImage[E]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.0
EmptyImage[SE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.1
EmptyImage[S]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.2
EmptyImage[SW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.3
EmptyImage[W]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.4
EmptyImage[NW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.5
EmptyImage[N]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.6
EmptyImage[NE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.0.7
freightimagetype[1]=Stahl
FreightImage[1][E]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.0
FreightImage[1][SE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.1
FreightImage[1][S]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.2
FreightImage[1][SW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.3
FreightImage[1][W]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.4
FreightImage[1][NW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.5
FreightImage[1][N]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.6
FreightImage[1][NE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.2.7
freightimagetype[0]=Bretter
FreightImage[0][E]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.0
FreightImage[0][SE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.1
FreightImage[0][S]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.2
FreightImage[0][SW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.3
FreightImage[0][W]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.4
FreightImage[0][NW]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.5
FreightImage[0][N]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.6
FreightImage[0][NE]=./images/wagon-long-d1.1.7
A similar situation prevails in wagon-long-10t.dat, wagon-ng-long-sar.dat, wagon-long-30t.dat, wagon-long-20t.dat, wagon-long-12t.dat, wagon-ng-bogie-long.dat and wagon-ng-long.dat. The canal barges and road vehicles seem to have steel as the 0th good.
I still suspect that it would be better to have separate images for wrought iron. I had wondered whether it would be possible to produce new graphics quickly using the Gimp, but it seems that it is insufficiently easy to distinguish between the load pixels and the wagon pixels in an automated way to make this work.