The International Simutrans Forum

Development => Extension Requests => Topic started by: KrazyJay on July 12, 2009, 10:50:17 AM

Poll
Question: Is the Duplicate Backwards button helping you?
Option 1: Yes, it's helpful votes: 19
Option 2: Yes, but it could use an undo button votes: 20
Option 3: Yes, but it could use a confirmation votes: 5
Option 4: No, my schedules don't match this function votes: 3
Option 5: No, it's placement is annoying me votes: 3
Option 6: What? Button? Leave me alone, I'm busy building a network votes: 1
Title: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: KrazyJay on July 12, 2009, 10:50:17 AM
Good Day fellow Simuthaners!

The button Duplicate Backwards in the schedule window has been annoying me quite often recently. I'm using a laptop with a touchpad as a mouse, obviously, but I sometimes click on the duplicate backwards accidentally instead of remove sometimes. It takes me quite a lot of effort to undo my action, remove stop by stop and click on the remove button for every single stop since it selects add stop after every action taken in the schedule window. Isn't there an easier way to undo the actions take by the duplicate backwards button? Or would it be a solution to add a confirmation button before duplicating the schedule backwards, or maybe move that button out a liitle so it wouldn't be so close to the other buttons?
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: AP on July 12, 2009, 11:13:49 AM
I've had the same trouble several times this morning, I would fully support an "are you sure" option for this button.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Severous on July 13, 2009, 06:08:31 PM
Agreed.

Same problem here.

Instread of removing stops from a complex route Ive duplicated them backwards.  When there are 16+ stops to start with...thats some duplication
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: AP on July 13, 2009, 07:07:18 PM
I did it once on a route that ran the full length of a 2048 tile map. At that point I just abandoned the progress I'd made and reloaded.

I can't believe it's taken someone this long to point out that it's a problem, actually. I suppose it's minor, but just very annoying.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: prissi on July 13, 2009, 09:02:41 PM
I tried several times to convince players that this is complete useless and even counterproductive albeit view differed and finally it was agreed to leave this button there.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 12:24:14 PM
The complaint is not that the button is useless (it isn't: it is very useful), just that accidentally pressing it can cause problems where there is no undo tool and/or as a result of its proximity to the "remove" button.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: KrazyJay on July 14, 2009, 02:23:20 PM
Regardless of what exactly causes this issue, placement, need or lack of confirmation, (thanks for pointing this out James,) I still would like to propose a poll where players can vote whether they want it or not.

Proposed poll: Is the Duplicate Backwards button helping you?
Yes, it's helpful;
Yes, but it could use an undo button;
Yes, but it could use a confirmation;
No, my schedules don't match this function;
No, it's placement is annoying me;
What? Button? Leave me alone, I'm busy building a network!

Is this button removable or configurable through the .tab file?
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 02:39:57 PM
A poll might be a good idea. And the button is not configurable in any .tab file: it is hard coded.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: gerw on July 14, 2009, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 02:39:57 PM
A poll might be a good idea. And the button is not configurable in any .tab file: it is hard coded.
But it should not be hard to make it configurable.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: IgorEliezer on July 14, 2009, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 02:39:57 PM
A poll might be a good idea.

O hai, guys ;D

* Igor was here. *
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: KrazyJay on July 14, 2009, 03:24:22 PM
Thanks Igor for being here ;). Thanks guys for supporting and thinking with me. I'm curious to see results. :)
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Lmallet on July 14, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: prissi on July 13, 2009, 09:02:41 PM
I tried several times to convince players that this is complete useless and even counterproductive albeit view differed and finally it was agreed to leave this button there.

For those who want to read the original discussion:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=149.0
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Nathan Samson on July 14, 2009, 04:15:49 PM
I think a general undo button (general in the sense it works also for the insert/remove and add "actions) for the schedule window can be very usefull, regardless if you like/use the replicate backwards button.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: AP on July 14, 2009, 05:48:48 PM
Confirmation or Undo would be good, either works really.

If someone could make the repeat backwards command more intelligent, so it is able to handle two-platform stations (where they are obviously signalled in opposite directions) automatically, that would be awesome too, and might well pick up some of the people saying it doesn't work for them.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Isaac Eiland-Hall on July 14, 2009, 05:51:42 PM
I generally am against confirmations -- "Are you sure?" gets old fast. ;D
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Severous on July 14, 2009, 05:54:19 PM
I voted it annoys me. 

It annoys me when I'm changing masses of vehicles orders individually and I accidentally press this button instead of remove.  That happens though because of the repetitive boredom of micro managing many vehicles.  In normal play when just one or two tweaks I'm more focused and make less mistakes. So this is not a significant issue. My schedule building never uses this feature. I dont care if it stays or not.

If changing vehicle scheduling order code... and I had to pick a change..it would be to make the 'no load' orders work at specific stops..and not apply to all points in a schedule.  Next preference would be to have 'unload all' available as a stop specific instruction.  Doing something with the duplicate backwards button is a distant third behind those other two enhancements.

Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: micslu on July 14, 2009, 06:18:06 PM
I voted YES with UNDO button.
I use DUPLICATE BACKWARDS very often.

But what I would really like is also ERASE ALL STOPS option.
I know this will overcrowd the panel, but as I often must revise my routes, it gets tedious removing each stop one by one.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Isaac Eiland-Hall on July 14, 2009, 06:36:41 PM
I've never hit this button by accident... >.>
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: wlindley on July 14, 2009, 07:31:40 PM
As noted, signalized lines and one-way platforms now render the function relatively useless except in the most trivial of networks.  It only works when you don't much need it!  (Kinda like adding lanes to a highway for rush hour.)  I vote to remove it, until such time as it can be made to "Do What I Mean" (with those one-way platforms).
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Helian on July 14, 2009, 07:37:03 PM
I think the game could use an undo in general.  I know I've lost lots of money messing up high speed tracks, and lately I've been using subways, which are a lot more expensive and easier to mess up due to the surface difference.  No clue how hard this would be to code though, I imagine it would be messy.

That said, by the time I use really expensive things like subways, I usually have the income to easily afford such mistakes.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Isaac Eiland-Hall on July 14, 2009, 07:55:36 PM
Quote from: wlindley on July 14, 2009, 07:31:40 PM
As noted, signalized lines and one-way platforms now render the function relatively useless except in the most trivial of networks.  It only works when you don't much need it!  (Kinda like adding lanes to a highway for rush hour.)  I vote to remove it, until such time as it can be made to "Do What I Mean" (with those one-way platforms).

So you primarily use trains, and not busses. ;-)
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: yoshi on July 14, 2009, 10:09:50 PM
This button is quite useful, although it's not very useful for railways. The only thing I don't like in the schedule window is the behaviour of the delete button. I prefer the past behaviour (after deleting a stop, the delete button is still active).
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: z9999 on July 14, 2009, 10:50:48 PM
Quote from: yoshi on July 14, 2009, 10:09:50 PM
The only thing I don't like in the schedule window is the behaviour of the delete button. I prefer the past behaviour (after deleting a stop, the delete button is still active).

Yes. I liked old behavior. Current behavior is very frustrating.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Lmallet on July 15, 2009, 12:34:51 AM
Quote from: z9999 on July 14, 2009, 10:50:48 PM
Yes. I liked old behavior. Current behavior is very frustrating.
I have to agree, I miss the old behavior.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: VS on July 15, 2009, 06:10:07 AM
Agreed.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: KrazyJay on July 15, 2009, 06:27:30 AM
Maybe a combined proposal? Change the delete button back to its original state, and maybe replace the duplicate backwards button with a tickbox or anything alike? So you build your schedule, if you want it to duplicate backwards, you tick the box, it duplicates backwards. If you remove the tick, the added stops disappear again. I guess it's a nice solution for those who use the button, and for those who don't like it and want to undo accidentally using it.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: sanna on July 15, 2009, 08:36:44 AM
If it is too complicated to create a complete undo for the scheduling window, would the hopefully simpler approach of having a "cancel" button to nullify all changes since opening the window be feasible?
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: prissi on July 15, 2009, 11:33:27 AM
A cancel button would be easy to add (or probably revert all changes or so). Line creation however could no reverted then without some tracking efforts.

The current behaviour of the delete button was actually the result of a vote ... since too many people, after deleting a stop deleted also the next stop the convoi should go.

I think, the problem here is a little "I want a read-my-mind button." Maybe a revert button is probably the best to help people still dealing with a duplicate backwards button.

What will not come are confirmation windows. That are not possible without breaking the even system quite a lot.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: VS on July 15, 2009, 12:03:37 PM
Maybe... if the list acted like file browsers, allowing selection of more items, deleting would be probably easier.

Reverting changes sounds like a big improvement!
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: jamespetts on July 15, 2009, 12:19:45 PM
I vote for a "read-my-mind" button!
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: z9999 on July 15, 2009, 01:05:58 PM
Quote from: prissi on July 15, 2009, 11:33:27 AM
The current behaviour of the delete button was actually the result of a vote ... since too many people, after deleting a stop deleted also the next stop the convoi should go.

A reason of this is clicking station name behaves two different ways.
- When "Add stop" or "Insert" is selected, clicking station name acts as SELECT.
- When "Remove" is selected, clicking station name acts as DELETE.
This confuses players.

I think clicking station name should always acts as SELECT.
And when we click "Remove" button, remove current station directly.
I think this is good. But of course, someone will click this accidentally.  :P
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: yoshi on July 15, 2009, 01:12:10 PM
My point is, if the delete button behaves as it did in the past, it's pretty easy to delete the unnecessary stops, even if you mistakenly push the "return ticket" button.

But Z9999 is right, it would be good if a stop is deleted when you push the remove button after selecting a stop...
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Isaac Eiland-Hall on July 15, 2009, 04:36:19 PM
Maybe add/insert should only toggle between those two, and there should be little X buttons on each stop to remove? (would still be fast to remove - hold cursor over top-most and click-click-click)
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: KrazyJay on July 15, 2009, 04:52:01 PM
Little x-buttons... yummy! Sounds great! And good analyzing z9999! I never realised this, but you're right. I believe this is the main difference between paid software and freeware. Uniformity (is that a word?). If we can replace the delete button by little mini X buttons next to each stop, then we solved the duplicate backwards issue by creating more distance from the other buttons, the inconsistency between add/replace and remove button and last but not least we cleaned up the windows a bit.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: z9999 on July 15, 2009, 08:44:00 PM
My favorite is ...


[add    ][insert   ][replace]
[move up][move down][remove ]

Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: prissi on July 15, 2009, 09:43:47 PM
I think z9999 buttons are the more consistens suggestion so far.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: gerw on July 15, 2009, 09:52:32 PM
I would prefer z9999's suggestion, but with a 'duplicate backwards' button (instead of remove) and Isaac's X-buttons for deleting.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: V813 on July 16, 2009, 07:10:55 AM
What about moving the "duplicate backwards" button to somewhere else (away from the "remove" button) so that we will not click on it by mistake?
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: mwoodburn81 on July 16, 2009, 07:27:03 AM
how about:

[Duplicate Backwards]
-- empty space --
| copy to a  |   | copy to new      |                  
|  new line  |   | line  backwards |
-- empty space --
[add        ]  [  insert  ]  [replace]

on top.

and then for each stop

|>  Stop Name [^] [V][X]

Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Fabio on July 16, 2009, 12:02:38 PM
duplicate backwards is very useful for feeder bus lines (for my taste, the most annoying to set up), whereas it's nearly useless for trains as i mostly use two tracks railways.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: T0m4S on July 16, 2009, 03:08:21 PM
I think it should moved from its actual position or either have a confirmation/undo option. The best would be both of them.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: AP on July 16, 2009, 05:13:54 PM
Quote from: mwoodburn81 on July 16, 2009, 07:27:03 AM
how about:

[Duplicate Backwards]
-- empty space --
| copy to a  |   | copy to new      |                   
|  new line  |   | line  backwards |
-- empty space --
[add        ]  [  insert  ]  [replace]

on top.

and then for each stop

|>  Stop Name [^] [V][X]



I like this.
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: jap train fan on July 23, 2010, 11:15:33 AM
i really need that undo button
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: Caspercom on July 31, 2010, 12:22:53 PM
Long time no post here... :-X

I'd go for the undo button.

Not completely off-topic, there have been some cases in wich I'd definitely like to use the button, but it would give me problems with my network. With long buses that use 2 tiles for example. A bus doesn't move on to the end of a long station like a train, but instead stops at the exact point assigned. If you have stops of 2 tiles long, using the duplicate backwards button causes the bus to stop at the wrong place, like this:

------------{----------}{----------}------------
[__________][__________]    -->       Back
   <--    [__________][__________] Forth
------------{----------}{----------}------------

{----------} = 1 station tile
[__________] = 1 vehicle tile


When going back, it uses the exact same tile, wich causes the second car to be unused. Therefore, the way back has to be assigned manually because it uses different tiles.

(Bad english :-[)
Title: Re: Duplicate Backwards
Post by: sdog on July 31, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
the duplicate backwards button is likely getting obsolete anyway:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5262.0