Author Topic: Concerning size of buildings  (Read 5183 times)

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Offline Václav

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Concerning size of buildings
« on: June 20, 2013, 10:45:03 AM »
I would like to know if there is any limit for size of buildings. Mostly in dimension of covered area.

At this time, from yesterday I create open coal mine for pak96.comic and it would be good if it should not be dwarf.

There is something that looks very strange in most paksets - open mines that have the same size like some big factories, mostly up to 4*4 or 5*5.

And I (like often) would like to break this - and create it in such size that is getting to real. It means that such mine may consume some villages - or one minor town.

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline Ters

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 02:12:52 PM »
Even if there aren't any limits to size of a building, finding a big enought flat, unoccupied area will be difficult at some point. And don't think too much over scales in Simutrans, because they intentionally don't match up, nor can they with current computing resources and map sizes.

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 03:36:19 PM »
there aren't any limits to size of a building
Thanks.

Quote
finding a big enought flat, unoccupied area will be difficult at some point
It is clear to me - that it cannot cover too much, but ... with good settings it is possible to limit appearance very much and it would help too - to it could be more real.

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Offline Ters

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 05:34:45 PM »
I didn't intend to say that there are no limits, because I don't know if there are, just that the even the hypothetical lack of such doesn't mean you can get industries covering tens or hundreds of tiles to work.

(Another thing: this topic seems to be on the wrong board according to the board's description.)

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 07:10:07 PM »
I didn't intend to say that there are no limits, because I don't know if there are, just that the even the hypothetical lack of such doesn't mean you can get industries covering tens or hundreds of tiles to work.
:thumbsup:

Quote
(Another thing: this topic seems to be on the wrong board according to the board's description.)
I don't understand this.

May it be that this is not true help request, but ... I did not know about better place.

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline prissi

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 08:19:01 PM »
I think there are also an absolute limit; at a certain points a tile counter is(was ?) assumed to be only a byte.

Offline greenling

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 08:24:22 PM »
Hello Prissi
what it's the maximal biges size for a Factory?
Opening hours 20:00 - 23:00
(In Night from friday on saturday and saturday on sunday it possibly that i be keep longer in Forum.)
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Offline Ters

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 08:33:50 PM »
I don't understand this.

May it be that this is not true help request, but ... I did not know about better place.

According to the description for the Simutrans Help Center board: "For questions about development of paksets, tools, resources and the Simutrans engine, please use the respective boards of the forum." Since how big factories Simutrans supports seems to me to have to do with pak set development, I would have thought that PakSet Maintainers and Artists Corner or Technical Documentation would be the right place, though I must say that the former's purpose isn't very clear. I think this board is more for questions like "How do I set up a train service?"
I think there are also an absolute limit; at a certain points a tile counter is(was ?) assumed to be only a byte.
As far as I can see, pak files and the corresponding data structures at runtime define building size only with size along X and Y axes, which are 16-bit numbers. However, the number of child nodes is also a 16-bit number, which puts a limit at 65536 square tiles. That would require several duplicate images, or the maximum image limit would be reached before that. Furthermore, there is some math in the code that lowers the limit further, at least if there are multiple layouts (rotations).

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »
Greenling,

If I am not wrong, you have not created anyone yet. So, I don't see why you ask for it. And also, I have plan to make only one factory of extreme size - but nothing more.

Ters,

may it be. It may be moved there. I missed that board.


Prissi,

If I understand right,

Basic length of side: square root of 65536 = 256
Length of side in case of more directions: 256 / 4 = 64 (it is better than 256 / 2 = 128)

And so great that open coal mine shall not be.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:35:49 AM by Václav »

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline Fabio

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 01:55:07 PM »
It may be moved there. I missed that board.

Moved, as per your request. 8)

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 10:37:08 AM »
Thanks.


And minor correction mathematics written above:

Basic length of side: square root of 65536 = 256
Length of side in case of more directions: 256 / 4 = 64 (it is better than 256 / 2 = 128)
Length in case of winter version: 64 / 2 = 32

...
and it still may be very sufficient - because if one side would be a very shorter, other side may be a bit longer than this number.


Such outstanding coverage is needed for mining machine will cover about 3*5 fields. And it is clear that such great mining machine needs great mine, else it would look very strange.

And in the worst way, that mining machine may be used as curiosity.

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline Ters

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 12:00:09 PM »
If only the mining machine could be the factory, and the rest fields. But, getting fields to look right for this is far from trivial.

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 01:34:14 PM »
If only the mining machine could be the factory, and the rest fields. But, getting fields to look right for this is far from trivial.
Yes, it could be fine - but this needs more faces for fields.

Probably this is as it would be needed

      c1 s1 c2
      s2 XX s3
c1 s1 c3 XX c4 s1 c2
s2 XX XX XX XX XX s3
c5 s4 c6 XX c7 s4 c8
      s2 XX s4
      c5 s4 c8


XX - center tiles
c# - corner tiles
s# - side tiles

I began to think about this some time ago.

And what is descripted above is only base - because each tile needs at least summer and winter version.

Another problem may appear when you take in consideration that those tiles would need also empty and full image. Then number of images would be higher of at least 1 - because for full image would be needed only one additional image (without consideration of seasons).


But here is something that would be done as soon as is possible - allow building of stations to fields instead coverage area of central building. Without this it is not possible to go on in development of special fields for mines.

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Offline Ters

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 03:40:02 PM »
There should perhaps be some building on the edge of the fields which severes as connection to station. Especially for mines. Not that I can see how this can be done.

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 06:48:00 PM »
... only minor correction of:
Quote
Another problem may appear when you take in consideration that those tiles would need also empty and full image. Then number of images would be higher of at least 1 - because for full image would be needed only one additional image (without consideration of seasons).

Full image would be used autimatically for fields on border of mines. In this way, it may simulate land prepared for mining.


But here is one very important thing: all fields of mines should be only on the same level like central building.


There should perhaps be some building on the edge of the fields which severes as connection to station. Especially for mines. Not that I can see how this can be done.
I think that this is not so important, in sight of whole potential project of change of mines.

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline gauthier

Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 07:12:52 PM »
About station coverage : why not simply making mine field destructible so as to build ways and stations on ?


Another idea : if I understood well your idea, a full field is a field reserved by the mine, an empty one is a hole in the ground, exactly like after using a slope tool. Therefore, ways and stations could be built in these empty fields and/or mining activity could change landscape both by changing height of tiles and by changing their appearance.

Offline kierongreen

Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 09:42:02 PM »
Fields are destructible - as long as a factory has a set minimum number of fields.

Offline Václav

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Re: Concerning size of buildings
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2013, 06:52:02 AM »
Another idea : if I understood well your idea, a full field is a field reserved by the mine
Center (empty) fields - where mining activity ended (but still reserved by mine) - yes, it is possible to build station here - but nothing else (so, forget on any station extensions)

Corner and side fields - where mining activity goes on

Full fields - yes, something like it - reserved for future mining - but land may be excluded from mining plan; so these tiles may be deleted

Quote
and/or mining activity could change landscape both by changing height of tiles and by changing their appearance.
You found way how to avoid appearance of standalone fields.  :thumbsup: In case of agriculture factories it is not problem - but here, it would look very strange.


Until mine is closed (but this is matter of future ... and long discussions) and restoration of land is done, nothing can pass inside, of course excepting employees and other mining machines and vehicles that carry mined material out of mine.


Minor correction (and delayed explanation). Here, instead
... cover about 3*5 fields ...
I wanted to write (and what I meant):
... cover about 3*5 tiles ...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 01:46:58 PM by Václav »

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní