Maglev tunnels?

[Wuz314159]

Trying to figure this one out & failing.....
Running stock 120.0 & I see I have Underground Maglev Stations, but no way to actually build Maglev tunnels.
(Maybe I'm not at the correct point in the timeline?)

I have no idea if the stations can be used at all. Seems like a Copy+Paste "Trains" error more than usable.

[Ters]

Maglev tunnels isn't really as great an idea, unless we are talking low speed maglev. Entering a tunnel at high speed is like hitting a brick wall, since the air can't move to the sides or up like in the open.

The stations are probably buildable underground, because stations by default are unless marked otherwise, to maintain backward compatibility with stuff made before the distinction between station above and under ground.

[Wuz314159]

Maglev tunnels isn't really as great an idea, unless we are talking low speed maglev. Entering a tunnel at high speed is like hitting a brick wall, since the air can't move to the sides or up like in the open.

The stations are probably buildable underground, because stations by default are unless marked otherwise, to maintain backward compatibility with stuff made before the distinction between station above and under ground.

I ask because it saves me from having to build another train line from my city's central station to the perimeter of the city to meet the maglev line.
I wouldn't care if speeds were reduced to 50kph, as long as I didn't have to build 3 separate trains to get me from city to city.

and the stations aren't buildable without the tunnel.

Thanks



For further clarification...


The Mail train heads straight downtown to the Central Station, but the Maglev needs a sub-station outside of town.
... and then a shuttle to the city centre.

I just wanted to get my maglev to the city-centre via tunnel.

(I guess I could use elevated lines, but ascetics.)

[Ters]

(Don't double post. It's against the rules.)

Well, that sounds like a legit use of maglev tunnels. I guess the artist who drew the maglev rather expected players to use the elevated option for maglev tracks to go into the city center, rather than dig down. Maglevs are typically seen as elevated. Unfortunately, I don't think the artists behind pak64 are active anymore. We not only need someone who can draw these maglev tunnels, but someone who can preferably draw in the same style as what has already been done.

[prissi]

It was an intended limitation of the maglev. The fast speed cames at a price (and realistically tunnels would have lower maximum speeds than elevated ways due to higher friction).

[Wuz314159]

It was an intended limitation of the maglev. The fast speed cames at a price (and realistically tunnels would have lower maximum speeds than elevated ways due to higher friction).

My here's my issue with that logic.....
Why can I not take a 160kph maglev train on a 160kph maglev track via a tunnel but I CAN build a 300kph conventional rail tunnel?

and then also, Why include a Maglev Underground Passenger Station?

[Ters]

Maglev is 590 km/h.

Unfortunately, pak64 has mixed monorail together with maglev, or rather the other way around. Although monorail tunnels do exist in real life, the purpose of monorail in Simutrans was probably as a form of transport suspended above ground, which is the stereotypical monorail.

[prissi]

There was first only monorail, which gradually evolved into maglev in pak64. The station is probably still in the old format and thus can be built anywhere.

[Octavius]

Tunnels are essential for any land based high speed transport. Suppose you want to travel from Zürich to Milano at 500 km/h by maglev. You have a choice: either you build a very long tunnel, or you give your passengers a sensation of weightlessness as the steep climb suddenly turns into a steep descent as you pass over the Sankt Gotthard pass. I think the latter would be fun, but not everybody will agree.

[Wuz314159]

Maglev is 590 km/h.

Unfortunately, pak64 has mixed monorail together with maglev, or rather the other way around. Although monorail tunnels do exist in real life, the purpose of monorail in Simutrans was probably as a form of transport suspended above ground, which is the stereotypical monorail.

The whole thing is a mess.
The 300kph only in elevated tracks & 750kph only on ground tracks tends to blow arguments as to what it's supposed to be in the Real World out of the water.
Combine that with a passenger station that can not be placed at all due to no such things as tunnels & I'm just as confused as to why as when I started this thread. =)

Lesson Learned: It was time for a major overhaul. :Þ

Thanks everyone.

[Ters]

Combine that with a passenger station that can not be placed at all due to no such things as tunnels

I never noticed that there even was an underground only station, and thought, without bother to check, that you were referring to the regular stations remaining on the toolbar despite all the tracks disappearing. That has actually been fixed, and this new station was added at the same time. Sorry about that.

Either that station was added so that it was available should someone make a monorail tunnel one day (or even to encourage someone to make it), or because prissi forgot that there were no tunnels for that waytype when doing lots of changes to the station definitions after support for distinct underground stations was added (the actual ways are defined elsewhere, so it's not immediately obvious when just working with stations).

Tunnels are essential for any land based high speed transport. Suppose you want to travel from Zürich to Milano at 500 km/h by maglev. You have a choice: either you build a very long tunnel, or you give your passengers a sensation of weightlessness as the steep climb suddenly turns into a steep descent as you pass over the Sankt Gotthard pass. I think the latter would be fun, but not everybody will agree.

True, but at those speeds, you need to have a (near) vacuum in the tunnel. And since it's hard to create an airlock you can drive through at any significant speed, and because you need special trains built to withstand the lack of atmospheric pressure outside, the easiest solution is just to extend the tunnel all the way to the terminals, or move the terminals to the tunnel. The newly drilled, but not yet opened, Gotthard base tunnel only allows for 250 km/h, and I expect that is state-of-the-art.

[DrSuperGood]

The 300kph only in elevated tracks & 750kph only on ground tracks tends to blow arguments as to what it's supposed to be in the Real World out of the water.

This should have been fixed with the last release. The best elevated monorail should support maximum speed like the best ground monorail. There is still an issue of power with some of the vehicles though (all monorail/maglev carriages should be powered but some are not or do not have enough power to reach their maximum speed economically).

Combine that with a passenger station that can not be placed at all due to no such things as tunnels & I'm just as confused as to why as when I started this thread.

With the speeds and volumes involved you really should not be picking up passengers directly with monorail/maglev. Instead you should be using it at transfers to cover big distances very fast. A good point-to-point passenger network should be using massive 12 long monorail/maglev stations with many convoys servicing them.

The biggest problem with monorail in pak64 is the use of elevated ways. They have a number of mechanical flaws, mentioned in another topic, which affect their usability. Specifically in cities you are currently limited only to roads and cannot pass over other player stops.

[Ters]

The biggest problem with monorail in pak64 is the use of elevated ways. They have a number of mechanical flaws, mentioned in another topic, which affect their usability. Specifically in cities you are currently limited only to roads and cannot pass over other player stops.

That's not the behavior I am observing, and even if it was, it would not have been a pak64 problem, but a general Simutrans problem. Though the algorithm for deciding which buildings are low enough to be built over isn't perfect, as has been discussed elsewhere. It should be noted that I used the public player for trying to build over my own stops, as there are no other players in my games, and the public player might be special in this regard.

[DrSuperGood]

That's not the behavior I am observing, and even if it was, it would not have been a pak64 problem, but a general Simutrans problem.

Which I stated in another topic. You can pass over small (low) buildings however due to bad city logic the buildings will eventually upgrade to tall ones resulting in an impossible way placement situation (the way should not be there) stopping you from upgrading them.

I think the issue of no elevated ways over other player's stops has been fixed. I am not sure anymore as I did mess around with a local build which had it fixed but the code from that might have been rejected or lost. This only applied to actual players, not the public service provider's stops and ways which was excluded from it specifically.

[Octavius]

True, but at those speeds, you need to have a (near) vacuum in the tunnel. And since it's hard to create an airlock you can drive through at any significant speed, and because you need special trains built to withstand the lack of atmospheric pressure outside, the easiest solution is just to extend the tunnel all the way to the terminals, or move the terminals to the tunnel. The newly drilled, but not yet opened, Gotthard base tunnel only allows for 250 km/h, and I expect that is state-of-the-art.

There are conventional high-speed rail tunnels designed for 350 km/h, although I think they are currently only used up to 300 km/h. The experimental Japanese maglev track where they set the world speed record at 603 km/h (see here) also has some tunnels. But to run at these speeds through tunnels, you need a very large bore, making the tunnel more expensive. The Gotthard base tunnel is expected to carry dense traffic, including many goods trains. This limits headway to such extend that operation at more than 250 km/h would be problematic anyway.

As a sidenote, the headway issue is part of the reason why operators hesitate increasing the top speed of high speed trains to more than 300 km/h. On some french main routes, TGVs already pass at top speed every 5 minutes. Increasing speed means increasing headway, reducing the number of trains and passengers. Combined with higher maintenance cost this is economically a bad idea, and passengers would complain about the lack of available tickets or the ridiculously high fares used to maximise profits in a market with limited supply. The reason why operators sometimes increase top speed nonetheless is national prestige. They all want their country to have the fastest trains in the world.

Real maglev trains would have to use tunnels to reach a city centre at high speed, if only to reduce noise pollution. As any machine that has air moving at high speed through a narrow gap, they are rather noisy machines. They would have to travel to city centres, as their main advantage over aircraft is removing the slow transfer from city to airport.

The difficulty in Simutrans is that, apart from some test tracks and one or two novelty items for tourists (like the one in Shanghai), there are no maglev lines in the real world, let alone maglev networks. So there's nothing to compare it with. And given the very limited range in distance and high minimum passenger volumes where they can outperform both wheeled trains and aircraft, I doubt there will ever be a maglev network. Maybe just a few isolated lines.