The International Simutrans Forum

Ja, men ska vi inte då ta o starta upp en tråd så vi kan få lite mer form på sakerna och kanske rent av fixa oss en egen PAK? :police:

Jag tänker skriva lite hur jag tänkt mig paken ska utformas och vad jag vill den ska innehålla.

Börjar med fordonsparken :)
Eftersom jag är en sån där nörd som måste ha det så 'korrekt' som möjligt med littera o allt, har jag gått igenom fordonsparken till SJ och försökt plocka fram de fordon som är typiska, roliga och nödvändiga, och försökt utelämna onödiga varianter. Tex är själva personvagnparken jag tatt bara en bråkdel av vad som finns hos SJ.....
Jag ritar alla verioner en vagn har funnits i hos SJ, och lägger in 'upgrade'-funktionen i Simutrans Experiemental för att en vagn har blivit renoverad med tex nya säten och i samma veva får SJ's nya aktuella färg. Jag använder också 'livery'-funktionen i bla.a under 90-talet att man ska kunna välja mellan SJ standard blå/grå/svarta version eller SJ InterRegio (vlå med rött streck).

I ett senare skede skulle jag vilja stoppa in andra aktörers lok och vagnar, men det är rikligt att börja med SJ :) Jag har dessutom börjat mitt i, på 1930-talet. Det var då SJ fick sina första såkallade stålvagnar.

För vissa kanske detta bara är en uppramsning av massa konstiga siffror och bokstäver, men de är absolut nödvändiga om man ska kunna identifiera och hålla isär objekten ;) Den med intresse kan gå in på jarnvag.net (http://jarnvag.net) och kolla upp vagnar och lok :)
Kasta ur er om ni har kompleteringar, kritik för val av fordon osvosv!

edit 1408.2013:
Nu finns några av objekten online:
Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

Pak.Sweden.128.Ex

Fordon:

Ellok:
Årstal   Lok   Typ      Effekt   Maxfart   Notater
1925   Ds    Snälltåg   1220   90       (träkorg) Ritat!
1925   Dg    Godståg   1220   70       (träkorg) Ritat!
1926   Ua   Godståg   920      45      Växellok
1930   Ds    Snälltåg   1220   90       (stålkorg) Ritat!
1930   Dg    Godståg   1220   70       (stålkorg) Ritat!
1936   Ha   Alltåg   1300   70      Smått misslyckad konstruktion
1939   Hb   Alltåg   1300   80      lite mindre misslyckad konstruktion
1942   F   Snälltåg   2580   135      Nytt snälltågslok, inspirerat av D-loken
1944   Mg   Godståg   2640   80      Tunga godstransporter
1947   Hg   Alltåg   1300   80      Slutgiltig konstruktion med bra egenskaper
1951   Du   Alltåg   1840   100      ombygd Dg/Ds - Starkare motor Ritat!
1953   Da   Alltåg   1840   100      Nytt modernt D-lok Ritat!
1953   Ma   Godståg   3960   100      Modernare Mg
1953   Dm   Godståg   4800   75      tvådelat Malmtåg, specialkoppel Ritat!
1955   Ud   Godståg   920      60      Växellok
1955   Ra   Snälltåg   2640   150      "Rapid" Nytt snälltågslok
1962   Rb1   Alltåg   3200   120      Förlöparen till Rc1
1962   Dm3   Godståg   7200   75      Lagt till mellandel i malmtåget (Dm) Ritat!
1967   Rc1   Alltåg   3600   135      Första version av dagens populära lok Ritat!
1970   Rc3   Snälltåg   3600   160      RC-lok för passagerartrafik Ritat!
1975   Rc4   Alltåg   3600   135      Godslok
1977   Rm   Godståg   3600   100      Rc-lok med låg utväxling för användnig på Malmbanan, specialkoppel Ritat!
1982   Rc5   Alltåg   3600   135       Ritat!
1985   Rc6   Snälltåg   3600   160       Ritat!
1987   Ue   Godståg   920      45      Ombygt Ua
1987   Uf   Godståg   920      60      Ombygt Ud
2000   Iore   Godståg   10800   80      Nytt malmtåg, specialkoppel
2001   Rc7   Snälltåg   3600   180      Uppväxling av Rc6 Ritat!

Diesellok:
Har inte kommit så långt

Ånglok:
Har VART fall inte kommit såhär långt!

Personvagnar:
   1930-1941   30-40-talsmodell Nitade vagnar
Typ         Vagn      Längd   Årstal   vikt   Kapasitet      Detalj               
2.kl            Bo5(A5)   23,5m   1932   46t   48(0)      Inte Rammsäkra Ritat!
3.kl            Co8(A8)   23,5m   1932   45t   78(35)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Restaurang:   Ro3      23,5m   1933   52t   0(48)      Inte Rammsäkra Ritat!
Restaurang:   RCo1   23,5m   1935   48t   40(13)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Postvagn:   Fo4      23,5m   1932   46t   12t,53kvm   Inte Rammsäkra Ritat!
Postsortering:   Do40   16,3m   1935   39t   10t,40kvm   Inte Rammsäkra Ritat!
Postvagn:   Do30   12,3m   Ombyggda G-vagnar         


   1941-1960   30-40-talsmodell Svetsade Vagnar                  
Typ         Vagn      Längd   Årstal   vikt   Kapasitet      Detalj      
1.kl            Ao5      23,5m   1952   43t   22(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
2.kl            Bo5(A5)   23,5m   1942   39t   48(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
3.kl            Co8(B8)   23,5m   1942   39t   82(30)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Restaurang   Ro3      23,5m   1946   45t   0(48)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Postvagn:   Fo4      23,5m   1943   35t   19t,53kvm   Rammsäkra Ritat!
                     
                     
   1960-1983   60-talsmodell         
Typ         Vagn      Längd   Årstal   vikt   Kapasitet      Detalj               
1.kl            Ao2(A2)   24,1m   1963   43t   40(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
2.kl            Bo1(B1)   24,1m   1960   43t   68(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Restaurang   B1c(RB1)   24,1m   1960   52t   30(22)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Post            DFo28   24,1      1965   40t   28kvm?      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Post      Fo5      16,0m   1961   32t   8t,24kvm      Rammsäkra Ritat!

                     
   1979-1994   80-talsmodell         
Typ         Vagn      Längd   Årstal   vikt   Kapasitet      Detalj               
1.kl            A7      26,4m   1980   45t   52(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
2.kl            B7      26,4m   1979   46t   78(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Restaurang   R4      26,4m   1987   51t   24(28)      Rammsäkra Ritat!
Manövervagn   AFM7   26,4m   1988   47t   41(0)      Rammsäkra Ritat!

Rammsäker/inte Rammsäker????
I gamla dagar (1800-talet) så fick vagnar med människor inte gå direkt efter loket/tendern på loket. Detta pga några olyckor som hade varit ödesdigra, och då kopplade man som regel in nån godsvagn eller nått sånt som första vagn innan passagerarvagnarna. När sen stålvagnarna kom på 30-talet, konstruerade man några av vagnarna säkerhetsmässigt så att de skulle kunna få gå direkt efter loket/tendern på loket. Dessa fick beteckningen "Rammsäkra". Efterhand blev det standard med rammsäkra vagnar, men jag har noterat ned det, ifall funktionen skulle implementeras. DVS: Inte rammsäkra = får inte gå direkt efter loket/tendern

Resgods.. vad innebär det!?
Jag är inte helt säker på vad SJ's resgodsvagnar används eller har använts till. Jag kan misstänka att det har varit för passagerarnas packning, men jag har valt att resgods innebär lyftpallar i simutransspråk. Jag tycker inte det låter osannolikt att ett litet bryggeri i en stad skickar 10 backar öl med rälsbussen till grannstadens pub, men rätta mig om jag har fel!


Godsvagnar
Har jag inte skänkt en tanke än så länge......


Dieselmotorvagnar -rälsbussar
årstal   Littera         Typ                  Maxfart         Kapacitet         Komentar   
1934   Y            Rälsbuss/Dressin         80         24 (36)         Tvåaxlig    Ritat!
1934   UF            Släp post               80         9m2          Ritat!
1937   Yo         Rälsbuss                     80         46 (43)       Ritat!
1937   UBo            Släp 2.kl                  80         56 (45)       Ritat!
1937   UBFo         Släp 2.kl, post         80         30 ( 8 )       Ritat!
1937   UDFo         Släp post         80         12+11m2       Ritat!
1953   Yco6 (Y6)         Rälsbuss 3.kl         115         53 (24)       Ritat!
1957   Ybo7 (Y7)         Rälsbuss 2.kl         115         47 (15)         bekvämare stolar    Ritat!
1963   Ybo8 (Y8)         Rälsbuss (1.kl?)      115         36 (0)         Ombygd Y6-Y7 med ännu bekvämare stolar för längre färder.    Ritat!
1953   UCo6 (UB)      Släp 2.kl                  115               62 (24)         Sittinredning som Yco6    Ritat!
1953   UADo7z (UADZ)   Man.vagn 1.kl, post      115         47 (15)         FIKTIV VAGN!   Sittinredning som Yco7, 13m2 postutrymme, delvist fiktiv Ritat!
1953   UDo40 (UD40)      Släp Post            115         20+22m2         FIKTIV VAGN!   20+22m2 Postutrymme Ritat!
1953   UF6 (UFV)         Släp gods               115         20m2          Ritat!
1966   Y3            Fjärrtåg               140         259         3 delat, Första tvåvåningståg "Kamelen"   
1979   Y1            Rälsbuss               130         68         Importerat italienskt tåg   
1979   YF1            Rälsbuss               130         48         Variant av Y1 med mer godsutrymme   
2002   Y31            Pendeltåg            140         87         3 delat, inga SL/SJ   

Rälsbussarna ovan blev lite rörigt... Allt som börjar på Y är motoriserade vagnar, och allt som börjar på U är släp. Har linjerat motorvagnarna också

till sist:
Elmotorvagnarna:
årstal      Motorvagn            Typ            Delar/vagnar   Maxfart   Kapacitet      Komentar
1948-1955   Xoa5 (X5)      Fjärrtåg      3-delat         135         155   
1949-1956   Xoa7 (X7)      Pendeltåg   CoX7 (UBX7)   90      168 (20)      Pendeltågens föregångare
1955-1981   Ycoa6 (X16)   Rälsbuss      Y6-vagnar      110      53 (24)      El-version av Y6 Ritat!
1957-1981   Yboa7 (X17)   Rälsbuss      Y6-vagnar      110      47 (15)      El-version av Y7 Ritat!
1963-1981   Yboa8 (X18)   Rälsbuss      Y6-vagnar      110      36 (0)      FIKTIV!!! El-version av Y8 Ritat!
1963-1981   X9                 Rälsbuss      2-3-delat        115      154         Långfärdsrälsbuss
1960-1968   X6                 Pendeltåg   3-delat        100      302 (30)      Första riktiga pendeltåg
1967-1983   X1                 Pendeltåg   2-delat        120      196 (64)   
1982-2001   X10              Pendeltåg   2-delat        140      184 (78)   
1989-2001   X2                 Fjärrtåg         6-delat        200      292(18)      (X2000), med Korglutning Ritat!
1991-2001   X12              Regionaltåg   2-delat        160      120         Annan version av X10, Längre färd
1994-2001   X14              Regionaltåg   2-delat        160      131         Delvist ombyggda X12, delvist nybyggda, Anpassad för regional
2000-2010   X52              Regionaltåg   2-3-delat      200      294         Reginatåget, Ingen korglutning
2004-2008   X40              Pendeltåg   2-3-delat      200      246         Ingen korglutning, kaffeautomat - Dubbeldäckare
2005-          X60              Pendeltåg   2-6-delat      160      374         Ingen korglutning
2010-          X55              Fjärrtåg      5-delat        200      240         (SJ3000) ingen korglut, högre komfort, ersätter X2000

Vägfordon
Har jag heller inte skänkt en tanke än...

Strukturering:
Jag har börjat i änden med tåg från 1930-talet. Jag har ritat nästan alla personvagnar, flera lok och rälsbussar och några motorvagnar. Alla för passagerare, resgods eller post.
Vilka punkter som finns att ta tag i:

* Persontåg - ViolinVictor håller på och ritar för fullt
* Olika industrier -> Vad finns det för industrier i Sverige? ABB, IKEA, Koppargruva, Silvergruva, Järnmalmgruva, textil, .....
* Godsvagnar som matchar industrierna
* Vägfordon -> buss och lastbil
* Infrastruktur - ViolinVictor har målat lite vägar och räls.
* Stationer -> Busshållplatser, lastkajer, perronger, stationshus etc - ViolinVictor har målat ett stationshus och en första version av en lastkaj
* Enviroment -> Hur ska världen se ut?
* Städer -> hus, rådhus
* Ballancering av Pak
* Nånstans att kunna ladda upp och ned allt det vi gjort!

Teknik
Jag tar den faktuella längden på en järnvägsvagn, gångar med 0,7 och då får jag längden på vagnen som jag ska skriva in i .DAT-filen
vagnens längd= 25m
25*0,7=17,5
Eftersom .DAT bara tar emot hela tal och att varje tal representerar 4 pixlar i .PNG-filen måste man kompromissa och antingen runda upp eller ned till närmaste hela tal.
Jag har sen gjort en mall som gör det väldigt enkelt att 'alligna' objekten

Lite bilder efter all text :)


(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_1.jpg?w=1200)
Här syns de fyra olika spårbäddarna: brun, grå, mörkgrå och mörkbrun/röd
Tittar man noga ser man att det finns varianter innanför de enskilda spårbäddarna.
Sen står det alla möjliga fordon. Har kopplat ihop några random, några medvetet, och parkerat för att se hur det hänger ihop med rälsen.
Ett objekt som också funnits ett stycke tid men inte kommit med på bild förrens nu är Ra-loket.


(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_2.jpg?w=1200)
Den ljusbruna spårbädden har allt från betongslipers och högglansig räl till träslipers med rödrostig räl.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_3.jpg?w=1200)
Här syns de fyra varianterna av räls med den närmast röda spårbädden. Bara träslipers, men med både rostig och glansig räl. På bilden syns också stationshuset,som har hissats upp i plattformhöjd med en trappa till gatunivå. Vill minnas mig ha sett detta vid flera stationer (bl.a. Ängelholm) men jag kan ha fel?

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ra.jpg?w=1200)
Som sagt blev snövarianten inte alls snygg. Bl.a. översåg jag en skuggning i diagonalerna och sen blev hela färgen fel. Ska rätta till det vid tillfälle. På bilden syns också den ignorerade rälsstigningen samt de två versioner av Ra-loket som funnits till.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/80-talsvagnarna.jpg?w=1200)
Här är en fullständig översikt över samtliga 80-talsvagnar. Det är små skillnader på några av dem, och är tänkt att de ska ske utan att spelaren märker det, tex skillnaden i de två blå/grå samt de två svarta målningarna.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/60-talsvagnarna.jpg?w=1200)
En bild på 60-talsvagnarna, också en komplett bild med allt jag ritat av dem. Samma sak gäller här i de blå/grå målningarna.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/40-talsvagnarna1.jpg?w=1200)
Detta är en komplett bild på 40-talsvagnarna.
Dessa finns inte i så många variationer, eftersom SJ i stort sett hela vagnarnas levnadstid körde med SJ-bruna vagnar. Det finns i dagsläget fortfarande 40-talsvagnar kvar i drift och har målats om till modernare färger, men de är typiskt ombyggt till sovvagnar och utanför Simutrans omedelbara simulering. Skillnaden på de två rader är dels lite olika vagnar, men sen att översta raden är nitade vagnar, medans den undre är svetsade vagnar. Igen, här är det meningen att spelaren inte ska märka när man började svetsa vagnarna istället för att nita dem. Loken är Ds, först i träkorg och sen i stålkorg.


Vagnen som står på spår 3 uppifrån (gäller också vagnarna på spår 2 i 80-talsvagnarna) är SJ's koncept "City Express". Skillnaden på bilderna är bara att det hänger en liten skyllt på sidan där det står "City Express". Meningen är att spelaren ska kunna välja en livery och då får 1:a-klassvagnarna på sig den skylten. Samma princip är tänkt med "Interregio" (de blå vagnarna med rött streck) där vagnarna byter från den blå-grå målningen om man väljer den livery.

De klimat som jag ritat. Ville få med kopparjorden också, men det ser kanske galet ut med ett rött streck runt hela världen? Vattnet har jag inte ritat!
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/showcase-3-klimaten.jpg?)

X2000 i original och nyare målning:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/showcase-4-x2000.jpg?)

De två gamla typer rälsbussar:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/showcase-5-rc3a4lsbussar.jpg?)
Har blivit mindre nöjd med den vita rälsbussen, kanske gör om den efter en stund!

Håll tillgodo och sätt igång!! :D

Det är ändå en ganska ansenlig mängd arbete du redan avklarat, och det är ganska fint arbete. :>

Kanske vore "PAK.SE" ett bättre namn?

QuoteResgods.. vad innebär det!?

Resgods är mycket riktigt packning och dylikt. Jag undanråder att konfigurera detta som styckegods, ehuru den standard som råder både i Pak.Britain och Pak128 är att resgodsvagnar är utförda som postvagnar (jag föreslår att de därför bör vara postvagnar men med lägre komfortvärde och något lägre kapacitet).

Quote
Rammsäker/inte Rammsäker?

På denna punkt föreslår jag helt enkelt att någon slags vagn - för tidiga tåg då - med visst postutrymme är ett prerekvisit för hela passagerarvagnssätt - genom att sätta föregående... hur säger man, "Constraint" som i Pak.britain. I Pak-Britain är det samma sak med att bromsade vagnar måste leda och vara sista vagnen på passagerarsätt fram till Mk. 3-vagnarna som var utrustade med genomgående luftbromsar. Detta torde inte vara särskilt svårt.

Quote1982-2001   X10              Pendeltåg   2-delat        140      184 (78)   

Vad gäller pendeltågskapacitet föreslår jag att i enhet med vad som accepterats i detta fall i Pak.Britain, att mängden stående passagerare är lika stor som andelen sittande (för att reflektera en ungefärlig maximal överlastning på 200% för pendeltågstrafik, det vill säga för icke-Indiska förhållanden), eftersom det sällan är särskilt effektiv kontroll därav på sådana kortare resor.

1948-1955   Xoa5 (X5)      Fjärrtåg      3-delat         135         155   

Var inte Bergslagens Järnvägars X5 4-delat, då med en extra restaurangvagn. X9 var även den alternativt 4-delad; detta torde lösas genom alternativa constraint-s (restriktioner, antar jag; min svenska har blivit rostig med hur sällan jag brukar den) för att kunna bygga upp de olika sätten. För samtliga borde det även vara möjligt att sammansätta flera 2-3 eller fyrdelade sätt, för även om detta aldrig gjordes, skulle så ha varit möjligt att göra med viss modifikation, om därav behov funnits och pengarna tillåtits.

Quote
Godsvagnar
Har jag inte skänkt en tanke än så länge......

Lite svårare eftersom Järnväg.net's repertoar vad gäller godsvagnar (tillika ånglok) är ganska otillfredställande, för att inte säga nästan helt avsaknad. Men det kan nog vänta, eftersom det behöver arbetas ut vad för typ av industrier det skall vara och deras kedjor innan det där svåra arbetet påbörjas. Tyvärr kan jag inte erbjuda någon form av grafisk assistans, ehuru mitt tålamod för att lära mig sådana saker är ungefär lika flyktigt som tidigare nämnda sidas ångloksrepertoar.

Vad gäller plats att ladda upp; jag vet inte hur man använder den där SVN-saken men om man kunde få antigen det eller github så vore det väl att föredra.

Quote
Har blivit mindre nöjd med den vita rälsbussen

Är det Hilding Carlsson rälsbussar jag ser...  8)

Men visst är det Hilding Carlsson-bussarna du ser på sista bilden ;)
Ska kolla över den i ett senare skede igen, och bla.a justera färgen och konturerna litegran.
Har några ritningar nu som jag inte hade tidigare :)

Du har rätt det med de delade motorvagnarna. Överallt finns det varianter på dem och olika bolag har haft dem i större och mindre versioner.
Men eftersom jag till en början tänkte på SJ-s fordon har jag utgått från vad jag hittat på nätet. Måste dock reservera mig för att jag kan ha läst fel :P
Men frågan är:
Ska man köra en fixerad längd, eller ska man tillåta att valfritt bygga motorvagnarna upp till så långa som de är/har varit i verkligheten, fast än SJ kanske inte har haft längsta motorvagnståget?
Ett exempel är X2000. Visst kan man koppla runt vagnarna i verkligheten om man vill det, men idag är ALLA i en speciell ordning (vad jag vet) och innehåller 7 enheter.
För och nackdelar med båda:
Fördel att det blir mer flexibelt, nackdel att det blir för flexibelt -> alltså man kan plötsligt köpa en variant man kanske inte borde för att det blir billig.
Fördel att det blir fastare enheter och därmed klurigare att ballansera för spelaren, nackdel att det är egentligen spelaren av spelet som är SJ och själv borde bestämma.

Det var ett smart sätt, att stoppa en desiderad "Rammsäker"-vagn som ligger i rutan till passagerarvagnarna. Jag har försökt klura ut hur det ska gå med konstraints när tåget vänder, dvs loket kör över i andra sidan. då måste han ju ta den vagnen med sig om det inte redan finns en sådan vagn i bakändan. Vill undvika att man måste stoppa en rammsäker vagn i båda änderna. Har dock inte gjort några försök än, eller ens kodat Rammsäkerheten ännu.

Resgods.
Jag vet inte helt om jag håller med dig att det är bästa lösningen att göra dem till postvagnar..
Gör man resgodsvagnarna om till postvagnar, kan man lika gärna ta bort de flesta av dem, då det redan finns postvagnar. En av mina hållningar är att det ska inte finnas mer än en vagn i taget för ett visst syfte, och har man två olika, men lika postvagnar, kommer man i 9 av 10 tillfällen välja bara den som blir billigast. På andra sidan, så skulle en del av rälsbussvarianterna försvinna, då de egentligen är resgods som jag har kopierat hela bussen och gjort ett postutrymme där, så det skulle bli färre bussar och mindre rörigt.

Men jag vet inte... Det blir en funktion i sig själv huruvida man ska kunna transportera (väldigt lite) styckegods i passagerartåg. Frågan är om man vill ha den funktionen?
Isf skulle vi be James (eller någon annan) att koda om depotet, så inte den där "Sortera efter: Relevant" är med, att man kanske kunde få lov att sortera vagnarna själv redan i DAT, och då skulle Resgodsvagnarna kunna hamna tillsammans med resten av vagnarna.

Jag kommer inte ihåg på vilka sidor jag har hittat alla sätesplatserna, men ett är säkert, att det inte är många sidor som skriver ståplatser :P De flesta platser i parentes (med undantag av restaurangvagnarna) har jag bara gissat mig till.. en del att hämta där :)


Britternas pak heter Pak128.Britain-Ex.

Kanske Pak128.Sweden.Ex ?

Om du inte vill/kan rita, men gärna vill göra nått endå, har du lust att brainstorma lite industrier? Vad är typiskt svenskt? :P

Jag sitter och ritar 80-talsvagnar och har kommit till ett litet dilemma...

Ska jag rita vagnen AFM7?
http://www.jarnvag.net/index.php/vagnguide/personvagnar-i-trafik/afm7 (http://www.jarnvag.net/index.php/vagnguide/personvagnar-i-trafik/afm7)

Vagnen är såklart väldigt praktisk då det är en manövervagn.
Grunden till min tvivel är:
Den existerar endast i 3 exemplar, och är därmed tämligen ovanlig i Sverige.
Jag hade först tänkt att skippa vagnen och då tvinga fram "SMS-körning", dvs ett lok i varje ända. Detta är vanlig praxis runt om i Sverige.
Men nu har jag som sagt kommit i tvivel......

Vad tycker ni?

Quote from: ViolinVictor on June 04, 2013, 09:01:47 AM

Men frågan är:
Ska man köra en fixerad längd, eller ska man tillåta att valfritt bygga motorvagnarna upp till så långa som de är/har varit i verkligheten, fast än SJ kanske inte har haft längsta motorvagnståget?
Ett exempel är X2000. Visst kan man koppla runt vagnarna i verkligheten om man vill det, men idag är ALLA i en speciell ordning (vad jag vet) och innehåller 7 enheter.
För och nackdelar med båda:
Fördel att det blir mer flexibelt, nackdel att det blir för flexibelt -> alltså man kan plötsligt köpa en variant man kanske inte borde för att det blir billig.

Flexibiliteten torde vara att föredraga - så länge det inte blir oöverskådligt mycket mer arbete i och med detta; i dessa fall kan det vara fördelaktigt att vara lite mer... rigid. Du kan titta på hur vagnarna är organiserade på BR Class 43 i Pak.Britain.ex, vars arrangemang med mellanvagnar och två lokändar är mycket likt det hos X2; att tillåta fri placering borde inte vara så svårt. Istället blir tågets kraft den begränsande faktorn i hur många mellanvagnar man kan klämma in - om man inte sätter ihop två sätt förstås, vilket jag anser borde vara en möjlighet, även om lokvagnarna borde ha en någorlunda hög driftkostnad för att göra detta olönsamt utom i de mest vällastade fallen. Jag fördrar den metoden, att uppmuntra "realistiska" val på detta sätt till att göra det helt omöjligt - inom vissa ramar, förstås.

QuoteJag har försökt klura ut hur det ska gå med konstraints när tåget vänder, dvs loket kör över i andra sidan. då måste han ju ta den vagnen med sig om det inte redan finns en sådan vagn i bakändan. Vill undvika att man måste stoppa en rammsäker vagn i båda änderna. Har dock inte gjort några försök än, eller ens kodat Rammsäkerheten ännu.

Det problem som uppstår i sådana fall, när loket vänder, är teknikaliteter vilka bara är någorlunda besvärliga vad gäller fordonshallshanteringen (skicka fordon till hallen med omvända vagnar kan göra att de inte är i körbar ordning, men att disassembla (jo, gräsligt, ursäkta mig) dem och att sätta ihop dem åter är sällan för mycket begärt, och under automatisk ersättning fungerar det i allmänhet väl, även om man kanske måste skicka två omgångar till hallen. Jag anser inte att detta är tillräckligt prohibitivt för att denna lösning bör förkastas; det är en godtagbar praxis.

QuoteGör man resgodsvagnarna om till postvagnar, kan man lika gärna ta bort de flesta av dem, då det redan finns postvagnar. En av mina hållningar är att det ska inte finnas mer än en vagn i taget för ett visst syfte, och har man två olika, men lika postvagnar, kommer man i 9 av 10 tillfällen välja bara den som blir billigast. På andra sidan, så skulle en del av rälsbussvarianterna försvinna, då de egentligen är resgods som jag har kopierat hela bussen och gjort ett postutrymme där, så det skulle bli färre bussar och mindre rörigt.

Jag spelar ofta med väldigt många olika fordon och så, så jag upplever egentligen inte att det blir rörigt förrän det är hela skärmen full med olika spårtyper och fordonshallsfönstret är några sidor långt; men det är fördelaktigt, för nyare spelare primärt, kanske, att det kanske inte är helt överväldigande. Dock tycker jag inte att det är så farligt med mer än ett fordon för liknande arbete... Vissa av dem skulle kunna kodas som passagerarsäten med högre komfort, också. Jag har svårt att se värdet i styckegodstransport med persontåg, även om jag instämmer att det inte är optimalt att blott ha dem som postvagnar. De kunde dock ha lägre kapacitet en reguljära postvagnar men högre komfortvärde, för att försöka något sånär simulera en förbättrad resebekvämlighet - vet inte om det går, minns inte om post har komfort nu--

Quote
Jag kommer inte ihåg på vilka sidor jag har hittat alla sätesplatserna, men ett är säkert, att det inte är många sidor som skriver ståplatser

Det är alltid svårt det där, men vad gäller fjärrtåg och tåg för regionaltrafik bör den vara rätt låg; men när det gäller just pendeltåg (tunnelbanetåg och spårvagnar borde kanske inkluderas framöver, och då gäller samma sak för dem) är det inte särskilt mycket kontroll över hur många passagerare är ombord, så överbelastningen kan bli betydligt högre; därav torde 200% (lika många stående som sittplatser - kanske något lägre för tidigare vagnstyper (minns inte hur sätesarrangemangen ser ut i X6), men de nyare (och tyvärr ohyggligt fula) X60 har extra mycket ståutrymme.

QuoteDen existerar endast i 3 exemplar, och är därmed tämligen ovanlig i Sverige.
Jag hade först tänkt att skippa vagnen och då tvinga fram "SMS-körning", dvs ett lok i varje ända. Detta är vanlig praxis runt om i Sverige.
Men nu har jag som sagt kommit i tvivel......

Det låter som en god idé att inkludera dem - även om de inte funnit mycket bruk i verkligheten, är det lätt att föreställa sig en situation där de skulle ha kunnat fått mer tjänst.
Jag erinrar mig ha observerat ett 5-vagnars regionaltåg till Stockholm med en Rc6 i vardera änden, och jag tänkte då att det såg ut som lite överdrivet mycket kraft för ett så kort tåg, men om det nu har med vändningen att göra så förklarar ju det en del. Vem vet hur de tänker numera... måste säga att den nya svarta färgsättningen är ganska skarp, ganska trevlig faktiskt.

QuoteOm du inte vill/kan rita, men gärna vill göra nått endå, har du lust att brainstorma lite industrier? Vad är typiskt svenskt?

Vad är den ideala tidsepoken? Pak.Britain är ju 1800 till modern tid numera... Skall det vara från 1850, då? Runt tiden då den första järnvägen introducerades. Eller mycket senare?

I alla fall...

Malmgruvor - Järnverk / senare Stålverk / - Järnhandel / senare byggupplag, osv. (Exporthamn av något slag - ?)
Urangruva (låg produktion)/ Kärnkraftverk (låg konsumtion, hög andel elektricitet)
Vattenkraftstation? (Hur den skulle te sig... skulle nog vara mycket svårt att få en sånär acceptabel visuell representation.)
Oljeraffinaderi (Här hade jag tänkt mig att eftersom det inte finns några oljefyndigheter skulle raffinaderiet helt enkelt producera olja/bränsleolja? Minns inte om råvarufabriker kan producera mer än en sorts gods... (till oljeeldad kraftstation? Stenungssundsverket...) och bensin till bensinmackar.
Importhamn - Kol, kanske. Till koleldade kraftstationer och stålverk/järnverk. Tidiga järnverk kanske kan konsumera träkol från någon mindre skogsindustri.
Skog - Pappersmassafabrik - Tryckeri - detaljhandel/bokhandel/varuhus(DOMUS?)/Pressbyrå.
Bondgård - Matfabrik/konservfabrik - DOMUS/Mataffär?
Stålverk - stål till varvsindustri? Vattennära konsument av stål/konservfabrik

Nåja, det är lite i alla fall.

Du har en poäng med manövervagnarna, och jag lutar väl själv mer och mer också mot flexibiliteten där de faktiska förhållanden uppmanar spelaren att välja som SJ gjort i verkligheten för att bli lönsam. Faktum är att det ju är möjligt att SMS-köra loken redan innan denna vagnen (1988), så fram tills dess kan man uppmana att stoppa ett lok i varje ända :P Lösningen för att det inte ska bli för dyrt och fungera i spelmotorn är att det i praktiken är två olika lok, som har fått olika konstraints. Den andra kan inte gå först i stammen, men har till gengäld lägre månadlig kostnad (pga ingen förare) samt flaggan "might lead from rear=1" (eller vad den nu heter.....). Det är inte svårt att koda konstraintsen så tex bara X2000vagnar kan gå efter varandra, och såklart ska de kunna multipelköras ;)
Börjar rita manövervagnen nu iaf! :)

Jag har redan organiserat och ritat så det finns 1 klass och 2 klass samt även 3 klass. De har såklart fått olika komfortvalörer, men finetuning till sist är såklart ett måste :P
Detta gör att det alltid är 2 passagerarvagnar tillgängliga, och ibland även 3. Tillsammans med en eller två postvagnar blir det ganska överskådligt i depotet.
Jag är inte emot att det kör runt hundra miljarder olika varianter av fordon på kartan, bara att allihop skulle gå att välja i depotet samtidigt :P Fast än jag spelat en del Pak.Britain.Ex, så tycker jag fortfarande det är jobbigt att välja när det blir fler än 5-6 fordon i depotet och det kan vara svårt att se skillnad på dem....


Jag har funderat idag på resgodsvagnarna, och du har nog rätt att man kan använda vagnarna bättre som postvagnar. Det kommer då finnas två typer postvagnar, en som uppmanas att användas i persontåg då korgen liknar personvagnarnas, och en som är en modifierad G-vagn som är den originala post(uppbevarings-)vagnen och som man kan stoppa i godståg.
De nästan identiska dubbletterna bland "postvagns"-spårvagnarna tar man såklart bort.

Bra poäng med ståplatserna! :)


När det gäller den ideala tidsepoken, så har jag just nu siktat in mig på från 1930-talet till nutid. Det var från 1930-talet Sveriges banor på allvar började elektrificeras och många av fordonen används nästan helt fram tills idag. Det är många intressanta verksamheter som har blommat upp under denna period.

Har tagit första steget och skapat ett konto på GIT. Sitter brutalt fast på andra steget, då jag inte begriper ett dugg av hur det hela hänger ihop. Har läst lite manualer, men fattar nada.....

Därför tänker jag lägga upp några av objekten på min DropBox, och så får man ladda ned .DAT och .PNG och kompilera. Det rekommenderas då att man själv stoppar dessa kompilerade filer i en befintlig Pak128 för testning. Observera att jag nästan inte gjort någon ekonomisk ballansering!


Jag har lyckats kompilera själv tillräckligt mycket för att spelet ska hitta mitt PAK och starta upp till demokartan, men så fort man trycker på "New Game" crashar spelet. Anar inte vad detta beror på. Tips på felsökning mottages gärna! :o

Quote from: ViolinVictor on June 05, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
Jag har lyckats kompilera själv tillräckligt mycket för att spelet ska hitta mitt PAK och starta upp till demokartan, men så fort man trycker på "New Game" crashar spelet. Anar inte vad detta beror på. Tips på felsökning mottages gärna! :o

Har du testat att använda en lite äldre version av pak128 som bakgrund till det hela? Ibland kan det vara lite kompabilitetsproblem med nyare versioner och experimental.

Som jag kör nu, har jag tagit ett komplett Pak128 och strippat av och nytt ut så många komponenter som möjligt. Det fungerar såklart klanderfritt, men målet är att kunna kompilera det hela själv, vilket jag har lyckats med till den graden att spelet startar och demokartan syns, men det krashar när jag trycker "new game"
Har inte gått till bottom fullständigt ännu, men eftersom paken startar och visas korrekt, så vet jag inte i vilken ände jag ska börja...?

Om du kan delge mig .dat och bildfilerna så kan jag kompilera själv och testa på mina olika .exes och se hur det fungerar, om inte annat.  :P

Ja gärna! :)
Just nu är jag dock mitt i en flyttning, så jag kommer ha lite svårt att göra nått....! får se om jag hinner lägga upp det på dropbox ikväll eller imorgon. :)

Har skickat ett PM till dig med en länk. Eller jag tror jag skickade det, för det försvann spårlöst efter att jag hade skickat det... så säg till ifall du inte fått länken :)

Jag lyckas med att ladda det om jag lägger in det i en tidigare version av pak128. Mappen med lok kompilerade allting utom Rc-loken tills de andra togs bort - vilket var något underligt, eftersom ingenting tycktes vara fel i dat-filerna.

Några visuella observationer: Lok och vagnar ser något smala ut, inte tillräckligt robusta. Längdskalan medför dessutom att det inte ser helt tillfredsställande ut när de rundar ett hörn eller passerar genom ett kryss. Har inte lyckats reproducera dessa krascher du nämnde, men kanske har de med att du inte (antar jag?) lade dem över pak128 utan körde tomt?

Håller just nu på att flytta, så hårddisken med spelet är bortpackat och jag kan inte mer än att läsa och skriva i forumet för tillfället :P
Men jag tog bara mina egna .pak-filer och lade in tillsammans med en kopia av pak128britain-ex mappar med simuconfig.cfg, text osvosv. Och då startade spelet, men krashade när jag trycker på new game.... Men får testa när jag får tillfälle igen när det nu blir :(


Längden på fordonen:
Jag ville ha så lika originalet som möjligt, då det ser så fjantigt ut med avkortade fordon. De problem du ser uppstår i svängarna är pga 'alligning'-en:
Varje ruta du kan rita en vagn i är 128 pixel bred och hög. Sticker en vagn utanför kanten på en ruta, kommer den delen inte med i den färdiga vagnen. Du ser några av PNG-filerna så finns det några kopior med linjer (xxxx_linjer.png) där detta illustreras väldigt tydligt. Det finns inget rätt eller fel, var i rutan en vagn ska ritas, bara att SAMTLIGA vagnar måste BÖRJA på samma punkt för de olika vyerna, det representeras av strecken vid de olika linjerna.

Och dock!! :) :

Så kan man 'realligna' dem i .Dat-filen. Har inte orkat bry mig om att testa det än, men det kan man göra och ta fram några standarder för att få vagnarna att hänga ihop även i svängarna. Jag har väldigt lite lust att korta ned fordonen, då jag tror jag lyckats få dem i någorlunda skala.  :o
Du kanske har lust att testa lite? :)
Vet inte hur det fungerar i praksis, men här är exempelkod:

EmptyImage[E][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.0,-10,-5
EmptyImage[SE][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.1
EmptyImage[S][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.2,10,-5
EmptyImage[SW][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.3
EmptyImage[W][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.4,10,5
EmptyImage[NW][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.5
EmptyImage[N][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.6,-10,5
EmptyImage[NE][0]=./images/george-england-maroon.1.7
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11459.msg112420#msg112420 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11459.msg112420#msg112420)

Hur kompilerar du? Jag kör varje fil i PakBuilder, och kopierar in pakfilerna sen i spelet.
Observera att det även ligger med en viss "Ra-lok.dat", som ännu inte har fått bilder. Hade en gammal version som jag har förkastat :P

Smala? du menar att gaveln borde ha varit tjockare/bredare? menar du även när tåget kör rakt mot en/bort från en?
Du säger lok och vagnar, då alltså inte X2000/Y/Y6?

Vad tycker du om min lösning med SMS-körning? håller på med 80-talsvagnarna och även manövervagnen, men även tidigare kunde man köra såkallad SMS-körning.
Vad med det upgrade- och färgsättningssystemet? Har gjort det på det viset för att inte vagnarna ska lysa som 'obsolet' innan sista varianterna på vagnen kommer ut. Också för att vagnarna i verkligheten har blivit uppgraderade på olika sätt. Men kommer det funka?

Jag har inte testat allting ännu... Men för att röra vid vad jag menar med smala...

Det ser lite ut som, tycker jag, att fordonen inte är särskilt mycket bredare än spåren. Deras bredd tycks inte vara helt i enlighet med verklig bredd i relation till spåren. Det är mest på loken och Y6 - på X2 ser det betydligt bättre ut, det var i alla fall ingenting som slog mig där, bredden kändes mer ackurat.

Jag kör dem i senaste makeobj via en .bat-fil skapad för ändamålet.

ok jag förstår hur du menar. Jag har resonerat att vagnarna smalnar av i gavlarna, speciellt 30-40-talsvagnarna.
Har ännu inte fått upp min hårddisk med alla originaler, men ska testa att rita till en pixel på bredden när jag får hårddisken :)

Har testat att bredda översta vagnen i 30-40-talsserien. Den ligger i mappen uppdateringar. Och alltså endast en vagn. Se vad du tycker :-)

Jag har testat den nu - och den ser betydligt bättre ut. Den fyller en bättre sitt rum. :)

Hej och glad sommar! :)

Förlåt att jag inte skrivit i tråden de senaste månaderna, är som sagt fortfarande mellan två bostäder utan någon permanent lösning för min stationära dator. Hade dock idag turen att kunna skriva ihop lite och titta på bredden på några fordon. Har breddat alla 30-40-talsvagnar samt RC-loken. Har dock inte haft möjlighet att testa än.

Men jag lägger nu ut det offentligt i denna tråden alla fordon jag gjort klart samt min räls, så andra kan få tycka till lite också :)
Det kommer mer ut så småningom.

Länk till mina fordon:
Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

Det är inte balancerat alls rent ekonomiskt, samt jag har inte tagit James nya uppdateringar i bruk än.
Men håll till godo och kommentera gärna!  :)

Quote...samt jag har inte tagit James nya uppdateringar i bruk än.

Betyder detta att det måste köras på Simutrans Experimental?

Nej, jag tror att om du kompilerar med standard-make-obj så ignoreras de experimental-relaterade posterna automatiskt.

Jag är själv såld på experiemental och de funktioner den erbjuder bl.a. med upgrade, så därför har jag riktat det jag hittills gjort mot detta. Men det borde gå att köra i standard makeobj och få att köra på standard ändå.
Har ritat 80-talsvagnarna nu också, lägger ut dem snart :-)

Nu har jag lagt ut en png med alla 80-talsvagnarna. Har varig petig och inkluderat båda två originella blå målningarna, samt svarta målningen med vit rand runt dörren och utan vit rand. Vet inte om det är overkill, men har sketchat ihop en .DAT hur jag ser för mig att det hänger ihop.

Kommentera gärna! :-)

Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

Bra dag ViolinVictor
Din svenska järnvägen modeller ser bra ut.
Det gläder mig att du gjorde för att göra det som en modell för Simutrans. :thumbsup:

Tack Greenling! :)

Jag läste igenom Sarloks blendertutorial, och kände mig grymt taggad att prova på!
Sagt och gjort, jag lyckades göra hans hus och rendera det korrekt, och ville prova på att bygga en vagn.
Jag använde samma måttskala som han hade till det där huset, och jag började med en 40-tals vagn. Fick efterhand till det rätt bra, men när jag skulle rendera det blev storleken väldigt mycket för stor, ljuset blev för mörkt (det skulle jag dock kunna ändra själv med ambient occlusion) och färgerna ändrades drastiskt. Det där med skript har jag ingen susning om, så jag renderade alla 8 bilder, flyttade solen o allt det, o klippte sen ihop det till en png med rätt bakgrund.

Men bilderna blev som sagt konstiga och jag känner mig inte säker på hur jag ska 'tweak'a blender för att få exakt rätt skala och färger, så med mindre jag får en uppenbarelse eller nått annat, kommer jag nog avvakta lite med blender så länge..

Jag fick däremot en lektion i perspektiv!
Junna, jag förstod direkt vad du menade med att vagnarna är för tunna. Jag ritade om mina 30-40-tals vagnar så de liknade den renderade vagnen i perspektiv och jag jobbar nu vidare med 60-talsvagnarna!

Lagt upp filerna på dropbox!
Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

Någon som har kritik? Synspunkter?

Jag har renderat en del Simutrans med Blender och använder Compositor för att maska (Material ID) in specialfärgerna så att de blir rena utan påverkan från ljuskällorna. Det är lite trixigt att få bort antiliasingen men det går hyffsat bra.

Skall prova en annan approach på maskningen som, om den fungerar, ger mer en tillförlitlig maskning.

Du behöver inte scripta någonting för att rendera alla bilderna, animera kameran och ljuset bara, en "vinkel" per frame. Skall se om jag kan posta min grundinställning med kamera, ljus och animering.

Ok, det är där jag går bet, så fort jag ska göra något utanför sarloks tutorial :P
Det vore kanon om jag kunde få en save eller nått med dina inställningar att prova på!
Min blendervagn är också på dropbox, om du vill se hur det blev. Sarlok hade skrivit i tutorialen att han inställningar gav 20 meter pr tile (som var standard i pak128), men min vagn ser ut som ett monster i pak128 :(

Vad är det för saker som du har 'blendat' för simutrans?

Eftersom jag är med och utvecklar Simutrans behöver jag förstå hur saker och ting fungerar. Jag håller på att göra ett PAK-set från scratch för att förstå vad varje object gör och hur de kan konfigureras.

Hittils har jag tagit mig igenom det mest basala som mark, shaders, hus, vägar, station och depå.

Har skickat en blend fil länk på min depå till dig. Den använder tre special färger; transparent bakgrund, day 7 och Day 8 färgerna.
I node gruppen "Background" kan du justera antialising masken med "Value" fältet.

Det är två scener, en sommar och en vinter. Objekten i scenerna är länkade så att updateringar sker i båda. Dock har de olika noder i compositor.

Fråga om du undrar något...

Snygg depå! :)

Du får ursäkta mig om jag kommer med några dumma frågor:

Först, nodegruppen 'background', det är inte den som bara heter 'ground'? eller letar jag på fel ställe (rutan med trädet med objekt i vänster kant)? och om det är, var hittar jag rutan med value?
De speciella färgerna, vad är det som gör dem speciella? på vilket sätt använder man speciella färger? Jag märkte att depån skiftade färg när jag tryckte runt, men förstod inte vad som menades med day 7 och day 8 eller hur det hängde ihop. bara att depån helt bytte färger när man renderade med sommar och vinter.

Speciella färger kan t.ex. vara saker som spelarfärgen (vilka finns i olika nyanser) och genomskinlighet och så vidare, tror jag i alla fall. Jag har inte gjort så mycket med dem...

Quote from: ViolinVictor on October 25, 2013, 08:05:44 PM
...nodegruppen 'background', det är inte den som bara heter 'ground'? eller letar jag på fel ställe (rutan med trädet med objekt i vänster kant)? och om det är, var hittar jag rutan med value?

Byt till "Compositor" och välj Scene noder. Background är noden precis innan Composite och byter ut backgrunden mot Simutrans trandparanta färg (se bifogad bild).

Quote from: ViolinVictor on October 25, 2013, 08:05:44 PM
De speciella färgerna, vad är det som gör dem speciella? på vilket sätt använder man speciella färger? Jag märkte att depån skiftade färg när jag tryckte runt, men förstod inte vad som menades med day 7 och day 8 eller hur det hängde ihop. bara att depån helt bytte färger när man renderade med sommar och vinter.

Simutrans kan växla mellan natt och dag genom att göra färgerna mörkare under nattetid. För att kunna simulera lampor som tänds eller använda färger som inte påverkas av detta har Simutrans reserverat ett antal färger som "specialla" färger.

Takfönstret på depån blir gul när det är natt, så de är målade med specialfärg dag 7 och dag 8 som blir färgen natt 7 resp. natt 8 i Simutrans.

Du kan läsa om dem på Wikin (http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_SpecialColors).

Simutrans's speciella färger kände jag till, jag trodde du hade gjort några blender-speciella färger. Då klarnar det!

Så det är det day 7 och day 8 är till för, du har helt enkelt programmerat in i blender day 1-8+ med simutrans speciella färger och du använder just de två här! Eller hur? :)

Försökte härma vad du har gjort i compositor till min egen vagn, men hade inte tid att sätta mig fullt in i det nu. kommer ta mig en bra stund att gå igenom alla nodes och försöka komma på vad de gör och varför du har satt dem där. Tack för bilden, utan den hade jag inte begripit vad du snackade om.  :o

Överlag verkar det vara rätt så avancerat att rendera saker för simutrans. Finns det möjlighet att återanvända något mellan varje objekt, annat än kamera och ljus och de modelleringar som liknar? Måste man gå igenom hela proceduren med alla nodes eller är det också nått man kan enkelt kan spara?

Quote from: ViolinVictor on October 26, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
Simutrans's speciella färger kände jag till, jag trodde du hade gjort några blender-speciella färger. Då klarnar det!

Så det är det day 7 och day 8 är till för, du har helt enkelt programmerat in i blender day 1-8+ med simutrans speciella färger och du använder just de två här! Eller hur? :)

Jag hade en ide om att göra ett material för varje specialfärg, men det blir en hel del och dubbelt arbete eftersom jag inte hittat något sätt att få reda på ett materials färg i "Scene Copositor". Jag har uppdaterat blender filen med 3 node grupper; Background, Special Color och Winter. De är gjorda så att de can seriekopplas, inga andra noder behövs.

I noden "Special Color" anger du färgen du vill använda, men tyvärr måste du gå in i noden (markera och tryck tab) för att sätta vilket material index du vill ersätta med specialfärgen. Naturligtvis måsste du även ha ett material med samma "Pass Index"som du anget i noden.

Quote from: ViolinVictor on October 26, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
Försökte härma vad du har gjort i compositor till min egen vagn, men hade inte tid att sätta mig fullt in i det nu. kommer ta mig en bra stund att gå igenom alla nodes och försöka komma på vad de gör och varför du har satt dem där. Tack för bilden, utan den hade jag inte begripit vad du snackade om.  :o

Överlag verkar det vara rätt så avancerat att rendera saker för simutrans. Finns det möjlighet att återanvända något mellan varje objekt, annat än kamera och ljus och de modelleringar som liknar? Måste man gå igenom hela proceduren med alla nodes eller är det också nått man kan enkelt kan spara?

Du har ungeför tre sätt att arbeta på.

1) Gör en "bas" med kamera, ljus, material och noder. Inga objekt. Spara den och starta alla projekt med den blender filen (glöm inte att spara under annat namn).

2) Importera object från en annan blend fil. Detta heter "Append" i blender. Välj "File->Append", klicka på blenderfilen du vill hämta saker från. Nu kan du navigera i blenderfilen och välja vad du vill importera. Gå till Group nodes, markera noderna (SHIFT+Högerklick) och välj append. I compositor; SHIFT+A, under group hittar du noderna. Du kan även importera, kamera, ljus, object, material etc... på detta sätt.

3) Länka till en annan blender fil. Samma förfarande som "Append", men välj istället File->Link. Aarbetsförfarandet är detsamma med undantaget att du kan inte editera det som är länkat, då de fortfarande befinner sig i orginal filen. Editerar du orginalfilen reflekteras de in i alla blender filer som är länkade till den. På detta sätt kan du bygga ett bibliotek med material, noder, objekt etc...

Hmm det låter ju väldigt smart.

Hur renderar du då animeringen?
Försökte få till den genomskinliga bakgrunden, men misslyckades. ska försöka igen imorgon. :)

Quote from: ViolinVictor on October 27, 2013, 02:06:36 PM
Hmm det låter ju väldigt smart.

Hur renderar du då animeringen?
Försökte få till den genomskinliga bakgrunden, men misslyckades. ska försöka igen imorgon. :)

Animeringen startar du med "Animation" i render fliken. Glöm inte att sätta path och filnamn i "output" utan extension. Välj filformat PNG RGB 8 och kryssa i "File Extensions". Renderingen skapar en fil med löpnummer för varje frame.

Hur går det? :)

Om du skulle ha missat detta så är Blender 2.69 ute nu :)

Jodå, jag fick animeringen att funka, och jag lyckades även animera kameran på min vagn. kollade noga igenom alla noder som du hade gjort, och gjorde några jag med, så nu har jag automatiskt rätt bakgrund och jag la även till en specialfärg på fönstren. Har inte testat i simutrans än, har haft en hel del annat att göra sista veckorna!

kan lägga upp blendfilen på dropbox så kan du kika vad jag gjort och kommentera den :)

har inte laddat ned nyaste blender än.. :P

[SE]
Jag hoppas att Google Translator inte kommer att göra många misstag.

Mycket intressant. Mestadels tåg X2000 är mycket trevligt.

Bara jag skulle vilja fråga vilken storlek använder du? Tåg X2000 ser ut som det tillhör Pak128, men jag är inte säker.

---

[EN]
I hope that Google Translator will not do many mistakes.

Very interesting. Mostly train X2000 is very nice.

Only I would like to ask what size do you use? Train X2000 looks like it belongs to Pak128, but I am not sure.

Hello václav!

I have drawn these trains incl. X2000 al by my self for pak.se so they dont 'belong' to pak.128 ;) that Said, its ofcorse possible to use Them for that pak. :) but i dont know if the allignment Will work.

The scale i used is approximately 1,5m pr every 'length' Unit in simutrans, that Will say every fourth pixel in the north-South-east-West-directions. But unfortunately it varies a little bit between different vehicles.

I have seen there is a x2000 on the simutrans addonsite, but this is another author.

Thanks for the comments! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Har inte hållit på så mycket med detta på en stund, men har fått ett ryck nu på det senaste.

Jag har gått ifrån att använda blender, av flera anledningar, men blant annat för att jag tycker det är väldigt roligt att rita just i GIMP. Blender gav mig dock lite insikt i hur mycket djup (bredd) det faktiskt bör vara i fordonen för att de inte ska se platta ut. Därför har jag ritat om stort sett allt. :-)

Jag har skrotat spåren som jag först gjorde. Detta till fördel för ett gäng nya spår, hela 16 av slagsen(!!), där jag har gjort många varianter, för att senare kunna sålla bort. Gjorde två varianter av alla spår, en med smal spårbädd och en med bred... Jag har även i de lodrätta riktningarna (sydost/nordväst) breddat rälsen med 1 pixel. Detta för att det rent geometriskt på pixelnivå blir rätt då. Det betyder i sig att samtliga fordon är 1 pixel för smal i dessa riktningar. Lösningen ligger i att antingen bredda fordonen med 1 pixel, eller låta det vara, då det ändå är väldigt svårt att se.
Gjorde även snövarianter av alla, men jag hade missförståt hur Simutrans ritar bilderna, för snöversionen ser bara konstig ut. Dessa ska ritas om senare.
Samma ska även "upp"-riktningarna som just nu inte är ritade överhuvud taget. Jag vill vänta tills jag har fått koll på halv-/helhöjderna så jag vet hur jag ska rita. Har likaväl inte hunnit med att rita en ny järnvägsövergång heller.

Sen har jag ritat ett stationshus och en perrong! Stationshuset hade jag faktiskt ritat för länge sen, men inte förrens nu kommer den upp på bild. Jag har försökt göra perrongen till en typiskt svensk asfaltperrong som inte är speciellt hög. Man måste kliva upp i tåget! Bilden som jag hämtade färgerna från hade en närmast rosaktig färg på asfalten, så därför blev färgen på perrongen rosa, men det går att ändra om det nu blev för rosa :-)
Stationshuset har jag hämtat färgerna och inspiration till detaljerna från Ängelholms stationshus, fastän mitt avbildade hus är en lite mindre variant. Det är fortfarande många detaljer kvar som kan placeras på huset dock (skorstenar m.m.)

Sen har jag också linjerat om samtliga rälsobjekt så rälscentrum = tile centrum. Jag läste att pak128 planerar att göra detta, och jag tycker också det känns bättre med nedfäld spårbädd. Detta gör det också lättare att rita snyggare stationer, då perrongplattformarna inte behöver vara så höga och därmed ser bättre ut mot omgivningen också.


(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_1.jpg?w=1200)
Här syns de fyra olika spårbäddarna: brun, grå, mörkgrå och mörkbrun/röd
Tittar man noga ser man att det finns varianter innanför de enskilda spårbäddarna.
Sen står det alla möjliga fordon. Har kopplat ihop några random, några medvetet, och parkerat för att se hur det hänger ihop med rälsen.
Ett objekt som också funnits ett stycke tid men inte kommit med på bild förrens nu är Ra-loket.


(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_2.jpg?w=1200)
Den ljusbruna spårbädden har allt från betongslipers och högglansig räl till träslipers med rödrostig räl.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bangc3a5rd_3.jpg?w=1200)
Här syns de fyra varianterna av räls med den närmast röda spårbädden. Bara träslipers, men med både rostig och glansig räl. På bilden syns också stationshuset,som har hissats upp i plattformhöjd med en trappa till gatunivå. Vill minnas mig ha sett detta vid flera stationer (bl.a. Ängelholm) men jag kan ha fel?

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ra.jpg?w=1200)
Som sagt blev snövarianten inte alls snygg. Bl.a. översåg jag en skuggning i diagonalerna och sen blev hela färgen fel. Ska rätta till det vid tillfälle. På bilden syns också den ignorerade rälsstigningen samt de två versioner av Ra-loket som funnits till. Men jag tycker nästan att snön som ligger på spåret ser bättre ut än den snön som ligger på resten av marken. Det har hamnat en massa lila pixlar runt omkring!

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/80-talsvagnarna.jpg?w=1200)
Här är en fullständig översikt över samtliga 80-talsvagnar. Det är små skillnader på några av dem, och är tänkt att de ska ske utan att spelaren märker det, tex skillnaden i de två blå/grå samt de två svarta målningarna.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/60-talsvagnarna.jpg?w=1200)
Till sist en bild på 60-talsvagnarna, också en komplett bild med allt jag ritat av dem. Samma sak gäller här i de blå/grå målningarna.

Vagnen som står på spår 3 uppifrån (gäller också vagnarna på spår 2 i 80-talsvagnarna) är SJ's koncept "City Express". Skillnaden på bilderna är bara att det hänger en liten skyllt på sidan där det står "City Express". Meningen är att spelaren ska kunna välja en livery och då får 1:a-klassvagnarna på sig den skylten. Samma princip är tänkt med "Interregio" (de blå vagnarna med rött streck) där vagnarna byter från den blå-grå målningen om man väljer den livery.


Är det någon som har några synspunkter, kommentarer kritik etc så vill jag väldigt gärna höra dem :)
Kan även ladda upp pak-filer om någon är intresserad.

WOW!!!

Ser enormt mycket bättre ut! (det såg bra ut innan med ;) )
Jag tycker rälsen är ett stort lyft och som du säger, nu stämmer proportionerna bättre. Ser kanoonbra ut!

Tack! :)

Här kommer en komplett bild på 40-talsvagnarna.
Dessa finns inte i så många variationer, eftersom SJ i stort sett hela vagnarnas levnadstid körde med SJ-bruna vagnar. Det finns i dagsläget fortfarande 40-talsvagnar kvar i drift och har målats om till modernare färger, men de är typiskt ombyggt till sovvagnar och utanför Simutrans omedelbara simulering. Skillnaden på de två rader är dels lite olika vagnar, men sen att översta raden är nitade vagnar, medans den undre är svetsade vagnar. Igen, här är det meningen att spelaren inte ska märka när man började svetsa vagnarna istället för att nita dem. Loken är Ds, först i träkorg och sen i stålkorg.

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/40-talsvagnarna1.jpg?w=1200)

De nya spåren ser fruktansvärt möra ut måste jag säga.

Möra, menar du att rälen ser "platt" ut?

Quote from: Ves on February 18, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
Möra, menar du att rälen ser "platt" ut?

Hah, nej, jag menar att de är mycket trevliga. ;p

Haha jamen tack :-)

skit! jag upptäckte precis att jag när jag tog skärmdumparna hade glömt aktivera lagret med skuggorna på 80-talsvagnarna, så alla 80-talsvagnar saknar skuggorna som ska sitta på vagnsväggarna. jaja har sparat skuggorna nu, så de efterkommande skärmdumparna skulle gärna ha skuggor på sig :P

[ +1 ] (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=modifykarma;sa=applaud;uid=10191;topic=11963.25;m=126688;d064dfa2e821=465a09b0f22014fdc74a7159a29b3818)  :thumbsup: 

Quote from: Yona-TYT on February 18, 2014, 08:01:15 PM
[ +1 ]  :thumbsup:

Tack, thanks! :) (you speek swedish? :P )

Hur föreslår ni att det fortsätts? Ska det ritas flera saker nu, eller är det dax att börja balancera eller fokusera på något annat område? Någon av er som är sugna på att göra nått eller har idéer?

What about you non-swedish-people? If someone wants to contribute in some way or give any kind of feedback it would be very much appreciated :)

Quote from: Ves on February 19, 2014, 12:24:08 PM
What about you non-swedish-people? If someone wants to contribute in some way or give any kind of feedback it would be very much appreciated :)

Well, judging from screenshots, it looks really cool. I'd like to try it out, where can I download pak.sweden?
And by the way, I spent a few years at your neighbours in Finland. Would you consider adding some finnish or norwegian vehicles?

Hello! thank you! :)

I was just putting the files on my drop-box:

Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

For you information, this is not a working pakset. There is not done any balancing at all so you cannot play with it. Just drive around with the trains :P
You will also need to have the Simutrans Experiemental and to put my files down onto an existing pakset and overwrite when asked. I hope that my ground will take over the default.

At the moment, I will focus on the swedish side, but in the future, I would love to do Scandinavia ;) But as you probably know.. its a BIG work... :)

Quote from: Vladki on February 19, 2014, 01:27:37 PM
And by the way, I spent a few years at your neighbours in Finland. Would you consider adding some finnish or norwegian vehicles?

I've planned for some time now to paint finnish trains but my skills aren't quite up to the task yet. I plan to continue the project someday, but it will have to wait until I learn blender. Rotations and shadows are a huge pain when painting pixel by pixel. I have as an experiment finished the Sr1 electric locomotive and I'm happy with it, although it was the easiest to paint being a crude, old soviet-designed brick. :P

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/163/3x2c.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/4j3x2cp)

Maybe we could indeed someday join forces to form a glorious pak.scandinavia...  ;)

Om vi vet vilka industrier som skall vara med så kan vi ju anpassa lite vagnar efter det.

Sverige är ju känt för sina gruvor, stålindustri och bilindustri. Att återskapa produktionskedjan för t.ex. Volvo involverar en mängd olika industrier, som t.ex. Gruva, stål, textil, elektronik, kemi och petroleum (kemi?) för att nämna några få områden. Varje område kan sedan brytas ned i flera olika processer.

Utöver detta behövs ju också de små detaljerna, som city trafik och fotgängare.

Sedan har vi ju de övriga transport slagen också...

Quote from: vorlonI've planned for some time now to paint finnish trains

Nice loco!
If you have planned now for some time, then its time to get started ;) you probably will end up redraw many things many times (at least I had to up to this point and probably will have to in the future) but when you get the feel, its much easier!

I took the freedom to download your loco, realign it and let it haul some cars on the yard. hope you dont mind :)


First of all, the picture you uploaded were jpg, so there was som qualityloss and I had to remove some ghost partickels but stil available as light spots on the ingame view. If you could upload a png, then it will be clearer :)
Then I think you made the same mistake as I did, making the loco to narrow. basically, the roof has to be almost as wide as the body is high. The RC locos have a height of about 4,5m and is 3,1m wide. that means the with (of the RC-loco) should be roughly 0.7 times the height. My RC is actually even a little wider, just so it wil feels good in the game.

But if you start painting, would you consider use the same scale as I, so that there will not be too much diversion if that big scandinavian-project once would become true? :)
My railtemplate:

Every 'knot' (every four pixels in the north/south east/west directon) in the allignementtools represent roughly 1.4-1.6 meters.

Now I dont know how often finnish and swedish trains were mixed in the years. I could imagine some kind of interaction up in northern Sweden/Finland but I never heard about finnish trains down in the more southern part of sweden. I know that sweden has a very big loadingprofile, making it dificult for some swedish stock to get outside the countryborders. But i know that the RC-locos with 80-generation wagons (maybe also 60- and 40-generation?) and X2000 is able to drive in norway, and X2000 at least is able to drive in denmark ath some other trains.

By the way, I putted the savegame with the yard on the pictures in the dropboxfolder, so you dont have to lay down all the different tracks :)
dropbox folder

Quote from: maxmaxOm vi vet vilka industrier som skall vara med så kan vi ju anpassa lite vagnar efter det.

Sverige är ju känt för sina gruvor, stålindustri och bilindustri. Att återskapa produktionskedjan för t.ex. Volvo involverar en mängd olika industrier, som t.ex. Gruva, stål, textil, elektronik, kemi och petroleum (kemi?) för att nämna några få områden. Varje område kan sedan brytas ned i flera olika processer.

Utöver detta behövs ju också de små detaljerna, som city trafik och fotgängare.

Sedan har vi ju de övriga transport slagen också...

Ok jag funderade också på att kika lite på godsvagnar. Har researchat lite och hittat lite fakta på några vagnar från början av 1900-talet.
Har inte du lust att designa några industrier? alltså rita/rendera några :)
Tex hur ska en gruva se ut? hål i marken? små gruvstugor? stor monstergruva som pak.britterna precis har skaffat? eller ännu större gruva, bara för att Sverige har världens äldsta gruvföretag (äldsta företag överhuvudtaget faktiskt).
Hur ska stålindustrins grafik se ut? ett stort blått hus som Domnarvet i Borlänge?
Brainstorma lite, prova några renderingar, så kan jag kika på lite godsvagnar och finna några typiska :)

QuoteFirst of all, the picture you uploaded were jpg, so there was som qualityloss––

Strange. When I open the link in Imageshack it's shown as png. Anyway, the loco doesn't quite seem to fit in with the other trains. Maybe that is because of the difference in width. I think my template was downloaded from somewhere around the pak128 forums, but it might be obsolete. It seems to match better with the standard pak128 trains which was my original goal, though most locos and coaches in pak128 are both too narrow and short by my mind. So I will definitely start using your template.

QuoteNow I dont know how often finnish and swedish trains were mixed in the years. I could imagine some kind of interaction up in northern Sweden/Finland but I never heard about finnish trains down in the more southern part of sweden.

Finnish tracks have wider gauge (1 524 mm) than swedish tracks which use the international gauge, so the interaction is limited to the short track on the border between Tornio and Haparanda which has tracks of both gauges. In that respect including finnish trains to the set might not be a good idea, as having finnish and swedish trains running on the same tracks is not realistic.

Anyway, I don't currently have the time to learn blender but the plans remain. I will continue drawing but a megaproject like painting all finnish trains will have to wait. I'll be glad to contribute to the set when I have more to contribute with. Meanwhile, feel free to use or modify the Sr1 if you wish and keep up the good work. The graphics I've seen so far look awesome and hopefully pak.sweden or pak.scandinavia or whatever name it ends up with developes into a fully playable pakset.  :)

Thank you very much! :)

ok I must have done something wrong then. Will have to try again :)

I also found the pak128 trains very short and I felt that it would limit too much to keep it to that small scale. That means that my trains have becom both longer, wider and taller. But I realize also that I with this decission never can use my vehicles together with any other pak's trains existing at the moment.

ah ok, if they have different gauges, then it probably will be very unrealistic to include one to the other if one are not simulating Trerikesröset :P
But you can use my other stuf if and as you want!


First attempt to make a 'Malmvagn' (Iron-ore car)
The car is too wide I think and big in general to simulate the car I tried to paint (M1 from 1890) along with some details that still are missing. So just look at this as a prototypecar :)
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/malmtc3a5g_1.jpg?w=1200)

Huh, what a beast engine is that? Three part articulated engine? Something running from swedish iron ore mines to Narvik harbour?

Sr1 is nice but too small compared to the other cars. And it used to be red-white instead of green-white 10 years ago.

Anyway keep up the good work. Now I have one more reason to try out experimental.

Regarding scale - did you compare yours with pak britain, german or czechoslovak? I think all if those are a bit larger that plaun pak128.

Sent using recycled electrons.

Now when we are going to join our forces we need to work out a standard regarding scale, color palette and shadows.

SCALE
Since Ves (former ViolinVictor?) used Blender to get the size right I suggest we use his scale. This would make it easier for anyone who use blender or other CAD tools.

@Ves can you share your scale with us in pixels and Blender units?

SHADOWS
The shadow is already defined for Simutrans, but as long "our" pak is uniformed we can decide upon any shadow we like. In Simutrans guidelines the Sun is at a 60 degree angle from the south. The shadow length can be calculated as:

length = height / tan(angle)

So if your house/train etc. is 10px high, the shadow, south to north should be 10/tan(60) =  5.7pixels. Or simply as a 1.7 ratio.

New shadow 
Since this is a Nordic PAK, we are a bit more north which changes the sun's angle a bit. The sun location can be placed at the average between Denmark, Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki (57°42'00.0"N 16°00'00.0"E).

This is the Sun's angle for each season (taking the middle date at 12:00).

Season	Angle	Shadow Factor
Spring (April)	42.41	0.91
Summer (July)	54.52	1.4
Autum (October)	23.29	0.43
Winter(January)	11.72	0.21

To get the shadow length, divide height with the shadow factor.
The sun's angle will also play a role in color schemes (see below).

COLORS
Depending on the object, a defined color scale will give the look and feel of one PAK, not a PAK mad up of several individual paks.
Objects that would benefit from this are ground, trees, water etc...
Buildings would preferable not include the ground, but if they do, should try to use the same color scheme as the roads/ground.

If we are going to be really anal about color schemes, we should have different color schemes depending on season because the sun is at different angles at 12:00. When the sun is at it highest peak, a clear day in the summer, it has a color temperature about 5500K (neutral). We can shift the color palette towards red as the sun's angle decrease.

I have not yet figured out a formula for the shifting, but I'm working on it...

Quote from: Vladki on February 19, 2014, 10:39:11 PM
Huh, what a beast engine is that? Three part articulated engine? Something running from Swedish iron ore mines to Narvik harbour?

Sr1 is nice but too small compared to the other cars. And it used to be red-white instead of green-white 10 years ago.

Anyway keep up the good work. Now I have one more reason to try out experimental.

Regarding scale - did you compare yours with pak britain, german or czechoslovak? I think all if those are a bit larger that plaun pak128.

Sent using recycled electrons.

Yes this is the Dm3  8)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SJ_Dm3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SJ_Dm3)

I downloaded the Czechoslovak pakset and tried a waggon in it. Unfortunately my waggon was very much bigger, but wow that is a cool pak! very big variation on the vehicles and the demomap was impressive! :)
The 'Deutsch' pak was actually the opposite in the question of size: It was just a snippet too large for my controlwaggon to look good. Then of cause there is the alignment that differs from both the paks and that I want to use lowered track (as standard pak128 will do I think?)

So I think that (unfortunately) this pak will not be compatible with those paks.


Yes that is correct i changed from ViolinVictor to Ves, because I use Ves in some other forum, and found ViolinVictor maybe a little bit silly in this forum :p but I have written there on the left side that my former name was ViolinVictor.

Now the scale:
The blendercar I made was much too big so its not usefull at all. But looking at the longest waggon (that should have the highest 'resolution') it is  26,4 meter representabled in simutrans by 17 vehiclesteps which is 17*4=68 pixels in horizontal pixeldirection.

If you lay the vehiclesteps-template out on a tile, you will see that a tile is 16 vehiclesteps long, 16*4=64 pixels.

26,4m/68px*64px = 24.8, roughly 25 meter pr tile

Just to give some calculations on this:
Vehiclestep in the template= 1.56 meter
One meter= 128 / 25^2 + 25^2 = 3.62 pixels in horisontal direction


In order to make the trains look god assembled, I recommend to very much use the template (if you are making trains) I made to correct rends in length and maybe a little trial and error in game.

But should the scale be the same on trains, cars, buildings?
The station I made is two tiles wide, thats 25*2=50 meters, which actual is in the bigger range. The Ängelholm station-house is the main building is infact around 25m wide. (crap! might have to redo that at some point then :redx: )

But does it sound reasonable with 25m/tile? Or have I calculated wrong somewhere?


@Max-max, you can have my blenderwagon, and resize it so it fits with the existing and then your resize will be the blendertemplate. Is it possible? the blendercar is on dropbox: Dropbox folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)


I have not currently done much shadows, but I agree that it would be very fun to just state a point and have different shadows than 'down south' ;) And also very cool, if you could make summer-shadows and winther-shadows. Its gonna be a big project to keep all different shadows in sync, but done right it could be a marvelous effect! I have no specific shadows on my trains yet and the different trains shadows are not even in syncronize with other train shadow. This is quite easy to correct since I have made shadows as layers in GIMP.

Same with colors. Here I have on my trains taken the colors from pictures and put right in to GIMP. I know this may be dangerous because a color can differ aloth when taken from different angels and in different lights. This is also quite easy on most of the trains to adjust as this also has its own layer (but some trains I painted before i 'discovered' GIMP, so they will be harder). But it would be really cool if the entire screen is changing its colorsheme during winter/summer!

But this with different shadows and colors leaves the question: How many seasons can different objects have? I know threes can have 4, but what about buildings and other objects? can 'everything' have seasons?
And what are the chances that we get ice on the water? ;)

And now another question:
My copy of the pak.sweden is a little mix between pak128.standard and pak128.britain which I have put down my stufs onto. Am I allowed to put this entire pakfolder on my dropbox and share it with you without doing anything else?

Regarding scale. There was a recent discussion on british forum. They agreed on 28 m/tile. I think 25 is fine as well. However 24 would be good for drawing as it would do exactly 1.5 m/step.

Is there a possibility to adust the day/night cycle. It would be cool to have the white summer nights and short winter days.

Sent using recycled electrons.

Yes I saw that they agreed on 28m/tile. But I also read in that thread sombody saying clipping errors would occur if the trains was too long. Do you know abut that? Would it affect us?

For me it is more important that the cars look good connected in the train, than the conversionfactor is precise and leaving gaps or overlapping trains.

Actually I have just gone through all my vehicles in a excellsheet, and some of them are variying quite much in length-scale and could actually benefit from a little rescaling. I must admit this probably happend because you only can define lengths for every fourth pixels and then I have used already drawn stuff to get the length of new stuff, and when trying to make it look good, its easier to add length than shorten down. At least my tendency is scaling uppwards. I have conversionfactors down to 1.32, creating a 21 m/tile. But this I will correct what is most out of length-scale, once we agree on something :)
But most of my vehicles have a factor of arround 1.44 to 1.55.

You could say it like this: The shorter tiles, the bigger you can create the objects and adding more detail to it. Ideally would be something like a 20 m/tile or 15 m/tile, but this I doubt would be . So I could agree on a approximately 24 m/tile instead of 25 m/tile :)

Quote from: Ves on February 20, 2014, 09:03:07 PM
...I have written there on the left side that my former name was ViolinVictor.

Duh...  :::)

I let you guys decide upon scale because I don't think I will be doing any vehicles myself anyway, I can stick to buildings :)
I did some roads in blender but didn't get the slopes match too well. This is my Blender test graphics to test the workflow.
Down to the right you can see the mouse placing a garage (highlighted border around).

(http://mkdevelopment.se/simutrans/roads.png)

It seems lilke we are going to need a server to put everything on. When I moved in here I had a walking closet, now it is a server room :) I happen to have some space left in the server rack. Maybe I can put up something for us under http://pak128nordic.mkdevelopment.se. I can get up an FTP server quite fast and then look at a Wiki system for us.

Regarding scale,
I think I red somewhere that Simutrans actually are using 2 scales, one for vehicles and one for buildings. I really doesn't matter as long we all stick to the same scales and rules. I really like the Comic PAK maybe we can ask them what scales they are using?

Seasons.
I know there are winter images for all buildings and I'm not sure but I think I saw that this actually was treated as a season parameter in the code. There is only one way to find out.... test  and see what happens ;D

I know for sure that trees has all 4 seasons.

Seasons - iirc buildings have two - with snow and without. Fields have five - spring, summer, autumn, winter and snow. However I dont know where is the setting for season times

Sent using recycled electrons.

Ok, after a nights sleep it feels like 24 m/tile is the way to go. It will be easier to calculate length of vehicles when drawing and it also makes everything a little (marginal) bigger than if it was 25 m/tile.

Nice 'city' you made there Max-Max! I also made som roads (they are on dropbox) which some of them are visible on some of my screenshoots.

I think the comic paks are not in 128 pixelsize, but 192, 96 and 32 (there are three comic paks!) djudging from the screenshoots of the 192, the trains seems to be a little shortened.
But you could ask them how many meters their buildings represent and adapt that. I like big buildings (grafically big), so the bigger you can make them with more detail, the better ;)


But the question remains:

Should the style be as photo-realistic as possible?
Should the style have other elements, clearly showing the player that this is meant to be accurate, but not photorealistic?

To answer my view on the subject, it would be cool with higly photorealistic texture, but my impression is that it will be very difficult to do that with the way the Simutrans engine is build. You can not make objects cast satisfyingly shadows on other objects or the ground or make it consecuently darker between the cars in a train and lots of such small cant's all over the place.
So I think a little tuch of 'comic' is needed in the pak in order for it to appear acceptable. But altough i like the comic paksets I must say, that in our pakset, I would not like to have it that comic.


Our pak has to represent something you can not yet get in any other pak :)


ok, then its just start testing with the season-images! But Ice on the water, is it possible?


Wow, that would be awesome to put on the server!
But I asked earlier, can I legally just upload 'whatever I have downloaded from Simutrans website and changed and modifyed' to the internet without any aproval?

Quote from: Vesok, then its just start testing with the season-images! But Ice on the water, is it possible?


Wow, that would be awesome to put on the server!
But I asked earlier, can I legally just upload 'whatever I have downloaded from Simutrans website and changed and modifyed' to the internet without any aproval?

The issue of ice was discussed in the pak128 forum. They figured that lakes, oceans and navigable rivers should not freeze, since ships would still traverse normally through the ice-graphics and that would look silly. Small rivers that ships can't use were drawn fully frozen for winter, but that has no gameplay impact. I guess a nice thing to have for a nordic pakset would be partially frozen oceans with icebreakers carving new routes, if there was someone to write the code.  :)

Pak128 went open source a while ago and it's released under Artistic license 2.0 (http://opensource.org/licenses/Artistic-2.0). I'm not really a license expert, but basically you can release modified versions if source materials (png's and dat's) are also provided. More or less the same goes for pak128.Britain although I'm not sure what exact license they are using.

Also, you have to decide if half-height tiles and the new climate settings (including lakes, for example) are worth adopting. It would mean more drawing but I've played with the new engine for some time and it's quite impressive. The change would be easier to undergo now when the amount of new ground and way graphics is still low. And getting rid of the raised ballast for railways was another change that pak128 took but your rails seem to be already flat, if I see correctly.

Crap! I had just written a long text as a reply, then the "send" button sended it right into space, disappearing for good! :-(

Well...

I want to adapt the new climate system and half height. I think it would add very much to the feeling to get half tile slopes. I'm just waiting for James to put the code into experimental so I can start try it out in game.

Ok, I will try to clear my installation so its only pak128 standard and pak.sweden stuff. Then when Max-Max get his server up and running it should all go there so you download a complete pakset.

One way to address the issue is to paint a water trail which will simulate a wake on the boat itself. The boat will drag the wake after it simulating the ice freezing again after the boat. It will probably be very ugly but plausible with current code.

A way to code it (now it is hypothetical since we are creating pakset, not code ;) ) would be to remove the ice on the tile under the boat and make the ice appear again after x minutes. This would also create a wake, much longer and nicer than with the first mode.
An icebreaker way to do it would also be really cool, but it woul maybe be too much ;-)

Balansering och sådant bör vänta till ett fullständigt sätt av fordon, infrastruktur och byggnader/industrier existerar, så det lär ligga en bra bit i framtiden. Det bör väl även vara prioriterat att försäkra visuell enhetlighet, så det inte blir så rörigt med olika skuggor och former som det är i en hel del paksätt.

Att rita dem för hand tycks emellertid ett fruktansvärt smärtsamt arbete...

Quote from: Junna on February 22, 2014, 12:43:05 AM
Balansering och sådant bör vänta till ett fullständigt sätt av fordon, infrastruktur och byggnader/industrier existerar, så det lär ligga en bra bit i framtiden. Det bör väl även vara prioriterat att försäkra visuell enhetlighet, så det inte blir så rörigt med olika skuggor och former som det är i en hel del paksätt.

Att rita dem för hand tycks emellertid ett fruktansvärt smärtsamt arbete...

We have Non Swedish speaking team members here so we try to keep this project in English.

Here is a ruff translation:

"We should wait with game balance until we have a full set of vehicles, infrastructure and buildings/industries. This will come further down the road. We should prioritise visual unity first. For example shadows not pointing in different directions, as it can be seen in some other PAK-sets. To paint them by hand seems to be a painful job."

Welcome back Junna :)

I just had a big post about shadows and the sun's position on the sky during the four seasons. We just decided the vehicle scale and it was suggested to have a clean design, something between PAK128 and Comic (but not that much comic).

We have also included Finland to the pack so we will call it pak128nordic (but I guess the Sweden will be the dominating country).
I have have put up a temporary FTP server (until I have renovated a little better server) for the development so we can share our work without public publicity. You will need a private login and password, let me know if you need one.

Quote from: Ves on February 21, 2014, 09:05:52 PM
One way to address the issue is to paint a water trail which will simulate a wake on the boat itself. The boat will drag the wake after it simulating the ice freezing again after the boat. It will probably be very ugly but plausible with current code.

I think this could be done as a sort of smoke...

Anyway as I got somehow dragged into this project I offer adapting my roadsigns from pak128.cz. I checked on wikipedia, that Norway has the same colors as CZ, but Sweden and Finland have green highway sign and red-yellow no-entry signs. So if you like my design (a bit more on the comic side though) I can change the colors to Swedish/Finnish. Some screenshots are on the czech forum: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9551.0

I hope that you not only feel dragged in a bad way ;)

I think that in general all white spaces on any given sign is represented as yellow in Sweden. In Finland I don't know the rules, but both Denmark and Norway uses white 'as usual'. The "motorway color" in Sweden is green, the "country road color" is blue and the "city color" is white, this meaning that signs that refer to (mainly when signs giving directions) one of the different types of road would have the different color.

But if you would want to do the job, you could to start with repaint your signs so the white is replaced by yellow. To find the 'correct' yellow, search google for the Wikipedia article about Swedish signs. Then the question of size, I cannot judge from the screenshots in the thread, but the signals might have to be resized if they appear too big or small. I hope you would allow such changes to the signs as well as maybe some kind of antialiasing towards whatever street we finally will get. But first yellow variations! :)

Smoke...! Interesting! Only hinder might be if smoke always is painted in front image?

Hello Junna! Yes let's talk English so everybody understand :)

It is a rather big job to paint by hand, but I hope that you find it good enough to be included :)  at least I feel much more in control painting pixel by pixel, as I can fade almost everything in the very direction I want.
Good point in waiting with balancing till much later!

Shadows should of cause be the same and here I will change my shadows on the vehicles to follow the visual style if it is needed. But of cause there will need to be quite some effort from every painter/renderer to keep it visual consistent.

I'm not home at the moment and cannot upload anything to Max server before Monday....

Max max how is it going in calculating the colors you mentioned in the earlier post?

Junna, you have made some impressive graphic for the pak Britain, how would you want the visual appeal of this pakset to be? As my screenshots or something else?

Was it agreed to include Finland and/or any eventual other (Norway or Denmark I assume) graphics? I do not think that it is a problem that there is a different gauge - we ought to ignore that, and there is no reason to have a separate 1524/20 gauge, as they are close enough that they would not look much different - though it would be nice if eventually there would a alternative narrow gauge to stand-in for both 1067/600mm gauge lines, of which there was a fair number in at least both Sweden and Finland.

Furthermore, as regards the graphics, I mean that I would be reluctant to make any graphics since it might violate the graphic integrity of your work, and it might not be good (the work that me and my boyfriend did was all made in Blender, have no knowledge of how to draw manually, and very impatient!) to mess it up with things that do not match (like my Ma)...

I will try to put down all the things, I "think" we have agreed on, into a design document.

@Junna, I'm a Blender fan myself and will do my parts with Blender. I have a template fro the Standard Simutrans Sun, but I guess I have to adjust it a bit to whatever we decide here.

I have said that I can do some buildings and factories (Swedish mostly). When it comes to track width between Finland and Sweden I think we can go what Ves have as the standard for all the nordic countries (does it really show in the graphics anyway?). A small gauge would be interesting since Sweden had a quite large network, especially around the industries. I think it is important that there is a distinct difference in the graphics between them so it clearly shows what is narrow and not.

Yes a narrow gauge is very much a must I think! Sweden would not be what it is today if not for all the small narrow gauge lines running all around during the time. The different in graphic I suggest use the same ballast as standard gauge for consistency but with significantly smaller tracks, also centered in the ground.

This also raises the question:
Are we about to model only SJ (in Sweden) or will we aim to model some of the other companies as well?

I think we should at least get some of the other big operators which has/had a little longer lifespan like TGOJ, LKAB etc.
I want to be able to in a multiplayer game, people are different companies with different roles and preferences.

I'm convinced that one can use both rendered and painted vehicles side by side, if we just are flexible. When max Max blender template is somewhat worked out you should put your Ma through that and see what we get. Some tweaks here and there in blender and some tweaks in my painting convention should hopefully make everything match nice together. In fact I have been really scared of the steam engines, so my plan was to be friends with blender and render them once it will be actual.

This creates the question:
What timespan do we want? Ideally the longer as possible, but how long is interesting?
My trains reaches at the moment back to 1930.

And after all, I think my ground texture make quite a clear statement of style, but it MUST not be that ground I painted. I'm not sure myself whether I'm happy with all the colors yet so that's open for discussion.

Since we are the first (what I'm aware of together with Vorlon) to think and start a pak up in the north, I hope that if someone suddenly starts making pak.Denmark or Norway would consider to coordinate with us. This would create some amazing possibilities not yet in any pak (what I'm aware of) where you could do simulations of borders and rules in different countries. Just imagine a multiplayer game.... And if not for that, then to save work since many traincars, buildings, industries etc are shared between the countries.
If someone absolutely want not to make a compatible pakset, that would be really sad I think. But if nobody is volunteering to start a pak Denmark/Norway then I probably can't resist and start painting Danish trains once in the future. And after that Norwegian, but now we are talking years and years into the future :-)

Good point in the gaugedifferenties between Finland <-> the world. One playing the set is maybe most likely to play one country at a time (if not a massive multiplayer game...) and then it actually would be totally out of question whether the gauge is different. If one would want it we could code some tracks as "Finnish" (the country, not that they are finnish = ready ( sorry.. Bad humor :) )) and only allow Finnish train to drive there. That was actually one of my considerations when brainstorming for the big Nordic pak setting prohibitions on the tracks so that one country's trains cannot automatically drive in another country if they not are constructed so (when Swedish trains have the "K" in their signature, they can drive in Denmark)

Very good idea with a design document! Then it will be easier to get an overview of status and information. Very important is that it is easy to modify as we probably to start with are gonna update it quite often.

If desired, wider Finnish tracks could be assigned to a totally different waytype. I don't think there will be need for a monorail or a maglev-slot in a nordic pakset so those could be used for the different gauges. There would have to be some graphical differences in the different rails though, because having two identical rail sections that refuse to connect might be a bit confusing for some players. I'm not sure if simply painting the two rails with a longer distance between them is enough to make the difference between the waytypes obvious.

Or the difference could be ignored completely. It's not that big a deal and if someone wanted to make a realistic map, it'd still be possible to use the Finnish trains on a separated network.

QuoteThis also raises the question:
Are we about to model only SJ (in Sweden) or will we aim to model some of the other companies as well?

Do the different companies use the same types of trains? Because if so, we could benefit from the feature of simutrans-experimental, which allows same locos and cars to have different liveries. Different liveries would also be useful for simulating the different colour-schemes that companies have had over time: the Finnish Sr1 for example has had three different paint jobs over it's history.

Very interesting point in using the maglev/monorail slot as Finnish trains! But I think also that that need careful thought so it not just feels weird having two apparently same functions.

Yes I indeed want to use the liveryfunction in the experimental game engine and have also used it already on some places. On my wish list to James is that you can sort the vehicles in the depot by company, making only vehicles of that company visible in the depot.

Ideally of a pak with our ambition would be to have multiple sort parameters: country, company, variation (eg standard and express train)

Quote from: Ves on February 22, 2014, 01:59:42 PM
I hope that you not only feel dragged in a bad way ;)

Not at all, just do not expect too much from me. I have no experience in drawing vehicles.

Quote
But if you would want to do the job, you could to start with repaint your signs so the white is replaced by yellow. To find the 'correct' yellow, search google for the Wikipedia article about Swedish signs. Then the question of size, I cannot judge from the screenshots in the thread, but the signals might have to be resized if they appear too big or small. I hope you would allow such changes to the signs as well as maybe some kind of antialiasing towards whatever street we finally will get. But first yellow variations! :)

Here is an attempt on road-closed sign. I tried not only yellow but also a bit thicker border. There is also the CZ version on the screenshot for comparison. Choose if you want white or grey signposts. For CZ I use both as they used to be painted white, but in 90. they began to use galvanised (Zinc) signposts. I have commented out the intro/retire dates, use whatever you find suitable.

As to the scale - they are definitely too big. If using the 24m/tile scale the sign would be 3.75m in diameter. If using 16m/tile - which is based on rail gauge - 6 tiles and cca 1.5 m (something in between the standard and finnish/russian gauge), then the sign would be 2.5m in diameter. Still too much. The right scale would be the same as pak64 signs. Well choose if you want exact scale or good visibility.

Of course any changes are allowed. I'll put the sources on FTP.

That was a nice sign! I think you managed to cough the right colors and good spotted that Swedish signs tends to have little wider red part! ;) How does these fit into the Czech street map? I don't think we have yet decided upon any actual streetscale as it might look better with something else than the rail scale. But it's also open for discussion :-)

I will download your files tomorrow and try out in the game as I'm not home in the weekend.

Ok, nice to hear! Do as much as you want :)

Quote from: Ves on February 23, 2014, 03:23:35 PM
That was a nice sign! I think you managed to cough the right colors and good spotted that Swedish signs tends to have little wider red part! ;)

Just as the wikipedia article told me. ;) However early (pre WWII) czechoslovak roadsigns had also wider red part, and I considered making that version earlier, but then I decided it is not worth the pain, as they were in use only for a few years.

Quote
How does these fit into the Czech street map? I don't think we have yet decided upon any actual streetscale as it might look better with something else than the rail scale. But it's also open for discussion :-)

Well the width of the other signs is the same as the width of the sidewalk, and height is the same as (full) tile height. This one is a bit of an exception. Nobody complained about them being oversized until I made a bus stop sign of the same size. The partial conclusion was that road sings are important feature and deserve to be exaggerated as otherwise one could overlook them. However I think the same about bus stops.

I just realized that the idea of having different rail waytypes will not work because only railway-waytype allows level crossings with roads. I guess allowing crossings isn't very easy or trivial to change. It was a good idea while it lasted...

Quote from: VladkiChoose if you want white or grey signposts.

I definitely like the grey poles more. They resemble the reality more closely and also look less pixelated against the road. The shade of grey has to be carefully chosen though, to avoid it blending in with the road too much. The colour in the screenshot seems pretty good.

Also concerning signs (and roads): what speed limits do we want? In Finland the most common speed limits are 120, 100 and 80 km/h, while in Sweden they are 10 kph lower respectively, if I recall correctly. It's mainly an issue with the signs as the difference is too low to be noticed in the speed of the vehicles.

I don't think scale should restrict the sign designs too much. It is more important to make them clearly visible for the players as they have an important role in the functionality of road networks. However I like how Max-Max put right of way -signs in intersection as a part of the road graphics. I would love to see more of them in places like roundabouts and parking lots. Such "ambient" signs don't need to be as big as those with gameplay impacts.

But isn't it just because there is no "crossing.pak" between monorail and street/normal rail? I know that if you remove the crossing between rail and street (and somehow manage to start simutrans) you can not build crossings between the two.

Automatic signs in crossings is a must in my opinion! Really ads to the look! I tried to do it on some of my ways, but managed only partly as you maybe can see in the pak files on Dropbox. I would also like to automatic have new speed signs when changing road type but that will be quite difficult. One way to do it is to paint the changed speed sign on all way tiles and if the next road tile is the same it will overlap the sign somehow. But that is difficult!

Anyway I don't think they should diverge too much in size, since it might look odd. I think instead all signs should be relative big so you can read them on the map.

The design of the signs should however allow for a sign being placed over or on top or next to a sign created by the road, eg a right of way-sign.
For instance, if I want to place a choose sign in an intersection and a right of way-sign is present.

The roads I painted has the limits of 50, 70 and 90 km/h. I have not painted any motorway yet which in Sweden is 110km/h

In Denmark the speeds are:
50, 80, 130

In Norway it is:
50, 80, 100

Of cause there are lots of diversions and variations but I think these are the ones standing at the border of the countries.

But how would you like it? All speeds in steps of 10km/h intervals or only a set of intervals?

Should all countries have it's own set of roads (with different graphics?) for the player to choose?

In the question of white and grey, could we have both?
I want that you in the pak are able to see when something is getting old. I think that the white sign pole appeared actually just like light grey, reflecting the surroundings and the other as dark grey and such small details are perfect to put in in order to make the dark pole signal to appear older than the other. If it's not too much work?

Quote from: Ves on February 23, 2014, 10:57:46 PM
But isn't it just because there is no "crossing.pak" between monorail and street/normal rail? I know that if you remove the crossing between rail and street (and somehow manage to start simutrans) you can not build crossings between the two.

I think so - because in pak128.cz we have a crossing for narrow gauge, and in pak128 there are crossings for road/water and rail/water.

Quote
Automatic signs in crossings is a must in my opinion! Really ads to the look! I tried to do it on some of my ways, but managed only partly as you maybe can see in the pak files on Dropbox.

I played a bit with pak.sweden and the road crossing has bad alignment of rails.

Quote
I would also like to automatic have new speed signs when changing road type but that will be quite difficult.

Uff, I don't think that will work well. Think of the speed limits more as about quality of the road.

Quote
The design of the signs should however allow for a sign being placed over or on top or next to a sign created by the road, eg a right of way-sign. For instance, if I want to place a choose sign in an intersection and a right of way-sign is present.

Most of my signs have same height and shape. So if the road included signs have pole aligned at the same place and are lower, then it could work. However the pole might be drawn over the smaller sign and I can't do anything about that.

Quote
In the question of white and grey, could we have both?
I want that you in the pak are able to see when something is getting old. I think that the white sign pole appeared actually just like light grey, reflecting the surroundings and the other as dark grey and such small details are perfect to put in in order to make the dark pole signal to appear older than the other. If it's not too much work?

Do you want the poles of already built signs to change color during the game as they are getting older? I'm afraid that's not possible. The only thing I can do is to make a switch, that at some year (you choose), white poles retire, and grey poles are introduced. Otherwise it is not a problem to make both versions, fortunately I have the gray poles as a layer so I can switch easily.

Question about speeds. It is possible to have minimum speed sign that prohibits slow vehicles entering the road. I have prepared signs for 30/50/80 km/h and combined signs for motorways - one-way + min-speed at 50/80. In Czechoslovakia you were not allowed to use motorway if your car couldn't go 50 km/h (nowadays it is 80 km/h). Is there any such rule in Scandinavia? What speed is (was) the limit.

Sorry I was a bit unclear writing my last post:
I meant that I have tried make signs on normal streetcrossings (not railway/streetcrossings). The rail/streetcrossings are the remaining parts of the old raised track, and I should fix that as fast as possible to get a pleasant look!

About signs at speed changes, I don't think it practically will work either. It's just a thought I've been playing around with :)

The question whether your signs will look good on top an automatic sign, I'm sure it will be easy to adjust both signs so they either appear both at the same time, or one overlapping the other.

I know that already built graphics can not change appearance, my thought was that maybe 1950 or something, all signs retire and new signs with the lighter grey pole are available. When being put next to each other,  the new one will look like it's very fresh compare to the other.

I currently don't know what the lower speed limit is on any countries motorway, but that would be programmed in the motorway sign?
I always found those minimum speed signs in pak128 a bit odd since (at least in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) they don't exist what I know. It is a problem not really appearing in real life that cars go too slow, rather the opposite cars going too fast! :P

Maybe a restricted speed sign (red and yellow)? Coded (if possible) like you can't go over the speed on the sign and the minimum speed is set to 10km/h under the limit? I real world, if I want to drive slowly, I wouldn't take a 90-road :P

What do you think?

Quote from: Ves on February 24, 2014, 07:03:43 AM
I always found those minimum speed signs in pak128 a bit odd since (at least in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) they don't exist what I know. It is a problem not really appearing in real life that cars go too slow, rather the opposite cars going too fast! :P

This is part of the motorway traffic regulation, though not stated separately by signs; I think traffic not able to travel at least 60km/h is barred, and so are mopeds, cycles, pedestrians, animals etc. Those are things that are implied by a motorway restriction sign on its own! One would have to read the traffic law to see those details, however.

Even though we (CZ) have the minimum speed sign in the rules, I have not seen it in real life. However similar role is played by signs forbidding tractors, horses, bikes, etc. So I can make the minimum sign to be something like "tractors forbidden", but the size is so small, that the tractor will be just a blackish blob on the sign. I think that having a sign with 90 displayed and enforcing 80 as minimum would confuse players. Either it should be the same speed and the meaning reversed - picture of max speed sign, but implemented as min-speed, or just omit the number at all and pretend it is a tractor on the sign.

Highway sign (in real life) is a combination of implicit min and max speed sign. The question is what are those speeds in nordic countries. I failed to find the minimum (and someteimes even the maximum seems to be vaguely defined). Higway sign (in simutrans) is a combination of min speed and one-way.

Road speeds - I think they should reflect implicit speed limits that are in place without explicit max-speed signs. From what I have found on net it is mostly 50 in town, 80 outside and 100/110/120 on highway (depends on country). Locals - please confirm. The other thing is to have some reasonably spaced selection of roads to choose from, and maybe even some historical aspect - quality improved, rules had changed. For starters I would suggest road speeds 20/50/80/110.

Implicit road signs - please share the source of the give-way sign, I'll try to play with it to match mine. There are basically two options - either show them both, or cover the implicit sign completely. And I gon an idea for another nice implicit road sign - warning sing at 90-degree turns.

About the building scales, Fabio has explained some of his principles in this thread:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=13352 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=13352)

Not that I thought you missed it, but now there is a reference to it in here. ;)

I have now uploaded the sources for the rail and road, I have also uploaded the raw file for the rails. Play around there if you want and create different types of tracks :) I have implemented the crossing to that so it automatically generates new crossing graphic (Which now should be aligned). I made three graphics with crossings, just pack the crossing_1.dat. If you want to create more crossings, play with the .xcf-file (use it in GIMP)

I did not have time yesterday (were drawing crossings ;) ) to look over the signs again to check if they Are ok but they should be ok.

Sorry to trippelpost, but regarding signs (skyltar.png)
There are many possible signs to use for the ways to place by itself. You mention the 90 degree sign to sharp turns, then there is the stop sign as a variation to give way sign (present in skyltar.png). Now we are really talking eye candy, but in Sweden there are almost always new signs after an intersection, mostly a speed sign and also a "main road" sign (a yellow square on diagonal) if the road is a such. Also there are usually blue (for country roads) destination signs telling how far to next town.  the foot walker sign for the city roads where there is a foot walk crossing the street (present in intersections).
When it is a sharp turn on the faster roads, there usually also are blue/yellow arrows on the outside of the turn. Bridges could have a "windsock" sign defined on the end tiles of the bridge, and maybe if possible tunnels could have a tunnel sign at the tunnel entrances.

Signs for the player to use, the dilemma with minimum speed signs, I don't know which option to choose so it's easy to understand with the most pleasing look.
Maximum speed signs (round red and yellow) which also acts as minimum speed signs?
Fictual minimum speed signs which for instance are blue?
Vladkis suggestion with painting for instance a tractor (or more correctly a "blobb") in a warning sign, respectively a motorway sign?

If you wonder why I got silent, it is because I'm trying to write the first draft of a Design Document and at the same time capture this discussion into it :P

However I really like the idea of automatic signs incorporated into the road tiles. When Sweden standardized the roads, we where at a good 2th place behind Germany when it came to standards :D There are many signs that actually can be incorporated into the roads thank to this.

EU members have basically one speed limit sign for every 10th Km/h. and can be categorised in 3 groups;

• In a city you can find from 10 - 60 km/h.
• A country road (including express way) span from 70 - 90 km/h.
• Highways span from 100 - 120 km/h.

With each group comes a set of signs that can be incorporated into the road tile. There are also some combination that should be restricted, for example, a highway can't cross a track of any sort or have any intersections.

Some smaller bridges can have some signs incorporated into the bridge road tile, such as Priority for oncoming vehicles, Road narrows to mention a few.

The Built-up area and End of built-up area can be placed at the city borders (disregard the fact that it might be another road than a city road because these signs also means speed limit 50 Km/h).

There are quite many signs that can be incorporated with the road tiles in the current  Simutrans version and even more if I try to add some more functions to Simutrans.

Regarding pedestrian crossings, I did try to incorporate them as well into my road tiles, together with he give way sign, but there was just not enough space. I suggest this can be an overlay to be placed manually on city roads.

Don't forget that I have been poking around in the Simutrans code a bit (mostly GUI stuff), so maybe I can try to add some code to achieve effects, not present in the current version. The first thing I come to think of is to have roads signs automatically added when the road speed changes ;)

PS. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Sweden) are all the Swedish signs in English.

The problem with automatic signs is that they do not have context. That means we can include only those that are specific for the given tile, without regard to surroundings. And that means only T - junctions (give way), and 90-degree bend (some arrows). However these are purely eye candy and have no function. Cars happily ignore the give way sign. However IIRC in experimental you can specify max speed in curves, so a max speed sign could be used and it will be not only eye candy but also an information for the player.

If context is available, then max speed signs would be possible - on the border of different roads, or a "steep hill" sing before high slope...

I found the wikipedia site with signs, but did not find answers to my previous questions.

I have found a page in swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vägmärken_i_Sverige but I'm not sure if I understood correctly that the first roadsings were specified by law in 1931, and that the first signs for higway were blue instead of current green. But I could not find when the color switch happened. It could be useful to have e.g. blue sign (min-50), green sign (min-80). I have set the intro_year to most of the sings with white pole to 1931, motorway sings to 1953 and grey pole to 1991.  I wanted to put the sources on FTP but I can't connect. You can find the stuff here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/roadsign/ The motorway sign I used finally is taken from pak.cz and recoloured to green. It looks better than downscaled swedish design.

Question about private road barrier. Do you prefer a player coloured barrier as in pak.britain, or a red-yellow stripes with no-entry sign, and perhaps a tool/customs house like i did for pak.cz?

How is it going with your document? :)


I have remade the crossings again. I realized that underneeth the crossingtexture, the normal road and track are lying just on top of each other. Luckily the tracks are the top part of the two, so I realized that if I just took the road with symbols etcetc and cuttet out the places where the rail should be visible, then I would get exactly correct railcolor, ballastcolor, with of the ballast etc. So now there actually only is one crossing needed, maybe two, for the sake of a wider road :)

The new crossings are lying on dropbox, also the sources.
I realy wanted to show a screenshoot of that, but my stupid computer still has very big problems with the internet. I can load different simutrans website and a newspaper, but not hotmail or wordpress where I usually put my pictures!  :redx: The screenshoot is instead in the dropbox folder :)

edit:Dropbox-folder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF)

Ok. The actual world is tending to run faster and faster, so I guess that this should be applied in our pak regarding speeds on the ways. During the years cars have been safer and roads have been upgraded again and again to handle greater speed.

As standard speeds could these be accepted?:

Inside townborders = 50kmh
Old/standard cheap countryroad = 70 kmh
Bigger road, more expensive, but allows for greater speed = 90 kmh

Bigger road becomes obsolete and is replaced with a new 90 kmh graphic, now with some collision dampers. Getting more expensive.
Motorway with collision dampers, *some way to force people to build two lanes?* = 110 kmh

New standard countryroad obsoletting the old = 80 kmh
Bigger road is obsoletting againg and is now replaced by = 100kmh

The motorway is being obsolete and a new one with even higher security (even more expensive!) has a speed of = 120 kmh


I think it might get too fiddly when you get to choose between 10kmh intervalls. If you have all the intervalls, which one to choose if they dont get other specialities (such as max weight or axelload although I know nothing particular about that)?

With the above, you would have between two but mostly three ways to choose from ( + some dirt roads) where you easy can notice the difference between the waytypes.
What do you think?

QuoteDon't forget that I have been poking around in the Simutrans code a bit (mostly GUI stuff), so maybe I can try to add some code to achieve effects, not present in the current version. The first thing I come to think of is to have roads signs automatically added when the road speed changes ;)

Now this would be very very cool! Do you think it would be probable to define a way-thing like "crossing", but with two different waytypes connecting? Then one could paint a nice transition!

Yes you are right that most of such signs would be just eyecandy. Also there might be a danger that signs are eventually confusing players. But also I think it could be interesting if signs could be there to remind, just as in reality, for instance i you build a bridge out of poor quality, with eg lowered weight as a result than the conventional road, there would come two signs on each end. The signs would show max weight (although you can only see a blob) reminding the player that something is special with that bridge. So if the player wants to be shure, player has to route his trucks over 'unsigned' bridges :p

Also because of my poor internet, I cannot load your page with the signs  ::( . I have to try again tomorrow.....

I have fiddled a bit with Skyltar.png and redrawn the give way sign so it has the same position, height and size as other signs. In optimal case it will be completely covered by player placed signs, but there is some funny graphical glitch that makes it sometimes appear in front of the sign. It happens in standard as well as in experimental, try different zooms and rotations and see the effect. Sources are on my web.

I looked on your signs from my phone and I'm very impressed with especially the motorway signs! They really look like miniature motorway signs!

Regarding the right of way sign it's also much nicer than my initial sign, however are the proportions of the sign right? It feels like it became very 'flat', I guess this is to make it hide able behind the other signs? Maybe it is possible to adjust it so it becomes a little 'thinner'?

I will try them in game tomorrow! :)

Quote from: Vladki on February 25, 2014, 08:53:06 PM
I have found a page in swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vägmärken_i_Sverige but I'm not sure if I understood correctly that the first roadsings were specified by law in 1931, and that the first signs for higway were blue instead of current green. But I could not find when the color switch happened. It could be useful to have e.g. blue sign (min-50), green sign (min-80). I have set the intro_year to most of the sings with white pole to 1931, motorway sings to 1953 and grey pole to 1991.  I wanted to put the sources on FTP but I can't connect. You can find the stuff here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/roadsign/ The motorway sign I used finally is taken from pak.cz and recoloured to green. It looks better than downscaled swedish design.

The transition from the blue highway sign tot he green one started 1978 and not until 1990 all signs had been replaced.

History.
Before 1916 Sweden didn't have any signs other than "mil" (10km) stones and some simpler signs to taverns along the road. 1916 One sign was designed; a triangular white sign with a red border. Under the sign on a separate board, information was written in plain text. But already in 1909 A serie of round prohibitory signs was decided as the first european standard. 1931 came the first limited standard for traffic signs in Sweden. At this point the european standard had incorporated the Swedish triangle shaped sign for a series of warning signs. Sweden adopted the european standard and the 6+2+1 signs became yellow with a red border.

Page and sign numbers are from the original 1931 Specification (http://www.mrw1.se/pdf_filer/SFS1931.pdf) (in Swedish).

Direction signs (page 506), Yellow background with border and text in Black.
Warning Uneven road (1)
Warning Dangerous bend (2)
Warning Junction with a road (3)
Warning Level crossing with gates (4)
Warning Level crossing without gates (5)
Warning Other dangers (6)
2 traffic direction signs (page 509)
Color definition (page 509)
A font type was designed specially for the Swedish road signs (page 507) and can be downloaded as a font for Windows, Mac and Linux here (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Trafikregler/Om-vagmarken/Teckensnitt/).

1923 a special tax was introduced to improve the roads and the road network formerly exploded with not only new roads laid in stone, but also the earlier mud roads converted as well.

1935 was the pole painted in the same color as the road sign, Yellow/red for warning and  prohibitory signs. Black/Yellow for the other.

1937 came an update and some new signs (SFS1937:44 (http://891mm.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/sfs1937_441.pdf)); Priority road signs, Built-up area and End of built-up area was introduced. The two later signs didn't set the speed, but prohibited high speed and use of the horn.

1953 opened Sweden's first highway (11 Km)

1951 came next update for the road signs (SFS1951 (http://www.mrw1.se/pdf_filer/SFS1951.pdf)). Built-up area and End of built-up area was removed.

1952 All poles are painted gray.

1955 New update. Warning for Animal and the speed limit signs.

1961 (SFS1961:602 (http://www.mrw1.se/pdf_filer/SFS1961.pdf))

1964 All poles are in their "natural color" (not painted).

1966 (SFS1966 (http://www.mrw1.se/pdf_filer/SFS1966.pdf))

1967 Sweden switch to Right side traffic.

1970 110Km/h on highways.

1979 (SFS1978:1001)

I found these blueprints for some Steam Engines (http://www.mrw1.se/pdf_filer/Bj_rull.pdf)...

I have put a lot of reference material on the server :P

What server is that?

;)

Quote from: Max-Max on February 22, 2014, 03:38:21 AM
Welcome back Junna :)

...I have have put up a temporary FTP server (until I have renovated a little better server) for the development so we can share our work without public publicity. You will need a private login and password, let me know if you need one.

I will send you a login in PM.

So I got a bit carried away and thought I should try to draw a wagon (Litt Gs).

This is impressive!  :o Too bad its not a 3d simutransengine! So many details! Can you make it fit in size and light to the existing graffics? Would be awesome to see it ingame! I hope that my vehicles are able to match up the quality to this!  :o


I have still had problems with my internetconnection and Im away again and will be back to my computer on saturday. I have this time brought my harddisk with me, but im not able to install the file-zilla-program on the computer im using for the moment. I hope that the internet at my home are fixed till I get back, so I can download the needed programs and start uploading to the server.

At least I now could open wordpress and upload my picture of the crossing:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/crossings.jpg?w=1200)
But in the meantime when I could not upload the picture, I improved it by adding a signal for the trains. Its not on the screenshoot but the files are in the dropboxfolder if you want to see it before saturday.
Notice that the rails is visible through the street and therefore will change color if you shift to some other rails. Notice also the improved malm-car on the edge. Only the 'even' directions are painted and I dont know if it should be that car or something else. It is not really correct in size and shape and it would be interesting if maxmax (or someone else) did a blendermodel of it *hinthint, notchnothc* ;)

Quote from: Ves on February 26, 2014, 07:03:27 PM
This is impressive!  :o Too bad its not a 3d simutransengine! So many details! Can you make it fit in size and light to the existing graffics? Would be awesome to see it ingame! I hope that my vehicles are able to match up the quality to this!  :o

I made it in SketchUp 2013 Pro wich I find a lot faster to make technical models compared to Blender. I tried to import it into Blender but the cleanup process was just to much to be an effective way to work.

I will try to find a workflow for Blender instead. Fortunately it seems like the Swedish wagons was built á la Ikea style. There is a base structure and then only swap in/attach different elements/features.

I love your crossings, very authentic. In the reference material you should find an early specification for crossings.

While I was browsing through a ton of wagon specifications I got some interesting ideas that has never been implemented in any pack I know of. There are a bunch specialized wagons and I started to think how we can use them in Simutrans.

Transport of prisoners.
A court house or police station can be coded as a city industry producing prisoners. The prisoner transport wagons can be used to transport these to a jail somewhere. The Jail will consume prisoners and food to produce citizens back to the court house/police station.

Military material.
There are a number of military fitted wagons for canons and troops. During WW1 and WW2 (and only during this time) Bofors can deliver canons and military material to Mob storage facilities (consuming them). Bofors would of course need SKF, Volvo, Ericsson and LKAB (steel).

Comfort.
There are a number of wagons for pure passenger comfort, such as sleep wagons, Restaurant wagons, Steam boiler (for heat), Power distribution for electric light. I was thinking how we could put these into play. So I figured that if a passenger train is equipped with these wagons, the profit will increase slightly because the ticket price can be higher, or extra income from the restaurant waggon. This would of course need some extra coding, but would also add a new dimension to it.

Transporting materials for buildings.
Assume the following scenario. You build a power station but instead of building it right away, a construction site is build as an industry. It needs to consume a certain amount of goods before it turns into the real power plant, by replacing itself. This will make use of our transformer wagons :) but would need some coding to work.

Just some thoughts...

Quote from: Max-Max on February 27, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Comfort.
There are a number of wagons for pure passenger comfort, such as sleep wagons, Restaurant wagons, Steam boiler (for heat), Power distribution for electric light. I was thinking how we could put these into play. So I figured that if a passenger train is equipped with these wagons, the profit will increase slightly because the ticket price can be higher, or extra income from the restaurant waggon. This would of course need some extra coding, but would also add a new dimension to it.

This is exactly what the existing comfort code for Experimental does, increases the revenue.

The special cars are quite interresting. I had already thought of transformertransport car, although I also had in mind that there would be a 'foreign country' industry, which would grab these kind of stuff.

Can you code it so that a new industry needs a certain amount of 'something'', (this also goes with for instance betong and wood) in order to be build? A challenge to make it detailed enough without creating too much micromanagement (one needs to build rail/roads, create vehicles, find from where the goods come from, setting up probably multiple shedules....) which you know only are beeing used in a preset time.

interresting with the military transports during ww1 and ww2! Industries in experiemental can both open new ones and close existing ones, so it should be possible!

I also saw the prisoners car in the documents! well why not? :)

But regarding goods transport, modern trains have a loading-sheet, telling how much it can load, when going faster or slower and how much STAX (axelpressure STAX18=18t axleload) it will create.
Example:

	A (STAX16)	B (STAX18)	C STAX20)
70 kmh	Maxload	Maxload	Maxload
90 kmh	Maxload	Maxload	Maxload
S (100kmh)	Maxload	Maxload	Maxload
SS (120kmh)	Maxload	Maxload	Maxload

How would you suggest to make any use of this?


regarding the comfort, Junna already explained that this is present in Experiemental (one of the reasons i like that branch ;) ) however Im actually not sure how it works.

If I have 2 trains, one with 100 comfort, one with 50, how is the calculated comfort? is it like this, that the people sitting in the 100 comfort car actually gets a higher comfort, or are the two comforts evened out, so both cars get 75 comfort?
Ive heard that the restaurant car will give a bonus to the entire train, how much is that?

I also thought about sleep cars. Many of the 40-generation cars have been rebuilt to sleepcars so that would be just natural to include them if we once will create sleepcars. however, I fail to find a way that these will work side by side with the other cars, and not just be a better car, making the player only build sleepcars.
In the real world, sleep-cars are only used to create higher comforts at night. In the daytime they would be parked at the yard, or some convertible ones will have their beds convertet to coupees with maybe 6-8 persons. None of this is acheavable in Simutrans, what im aware of. Do you have any ideas? :)

But if you have not seen the comforts in action, try pak.britain-Ex :)

I have mostly played the Standard edition since I was developing a theme feature for the GUI.
So you guys are saying we should do the pack for the experimental version? or should we start with the Standard and then add features for the experimental so it will work with both?

I have not poked around in that area of the code, but that was what I had in mind, to be able to set a quota to fill and when it is done trigg some action, such as replacing itself, or simply remove itself. However I don't know if this will be accepted by Jamespet or Prissi since it isn't in the "Simutrans spirit" to micromanage anything at all. I got quite burned in the theme project and if it requires too many hours of coding there is no point to do it because in the end all of it may be refused or just rewritten to unrecognition.

I do love trains but I have to confess that I don't care that much of authenticity. I'm just happy to play with trains and build signal systems ;D I know Jamespet is very keen on authenticity so stuff like axel pressure is definitely in the spirit of Experimental. Maybe Jamespet would be interested in implementing this?

I had no idea Comfort already was a part of Experimental  :thumbsup:
The sleeping wagon could be implemented in a way where they simply generated more revenue (get an extra bonus) when they are used during the night. To balance it, they might have a lower capacity and generate less than a normal wagon during the day, while they would catch up and generate more than a normal wagon during night time.

Maybe I should have a look at experimental again. It didn't catch my interest since my favorite pak was Comic, but now when we develop a nordic it should be the best pak :D

Also this "Simutrans Iron-Bite" (http://www.simutrans-forum.de/forum/index.php?page=Board&boardID=62&s=ecb916b7719339e213a3b1f4a16050ca41257adc). Maybe your project is more acceptable there for Hajo. :thumbsup:

Quote from: Ves on February 28, 2014, 12:46:22 PM
I also thought about sleep cars. Many of the 40-generation cars have been rebuilt to sleepcars so that would be just natural to include them if we once will create sleepcars. however, I fail to find a way that these will work side by side with the other cars, and not just be a better car, making the player only build sleepcars.
In the real world, sleep-cars are only used to create higher comforts at night. In the daytime they would be parked at the yard, or some convertible ones will have their beds convertet to coupees with maybe 6-8 persons. None of this is acheavable in Simutrans, what im aware of. Do you have any ideas? :)

There's a simple reason that sleeper carriages would not be superior to regular carriages, particularly on heavy load services: they have a very low capacity due to their nature. Now, the game doesn't take into account time of day and variable loads, but over very long distances loading will generally be less - it will be interesting to see how with the new distance-based generation this will turn out - and overall sleepers would be preferable on very long few-stop services due to their low capacity and simultaneous high revenue.

Quote from: JunnaThere's a simple reason that sleeper carriages would not be superior to regular carriages, particularly on heavy load services: they have a very low capacity due to their nature. Now, the game doesn't take into account time of day and variable loads, but over very long distances loading will generally be less - it will be interesting to see how with the new distance-based generation this will turn out - and overall sleepers would be preferable on very long few-stop services due to their low capacity and simultaneous high revenue.

.... and very high loadingtime! Excellent, this settles it! I will start painting sleepcars! There have been sleepcars/bed-cars since the 30-generation so this I will start to paint! It should actually be quite easy, its only the windows that really differ on some of the cars.

Iron-Bite, is it still in development?

Otherwise I really like the experimental version because of all the detail one can make that is not possible in the standard version (livery, upgrade, convoyspacing, comfort etcetc..) I think Experimental and Standard are equal as games and I think the experimental fork deserves some more attention. The biggest reason (I think) that there only is one truly experimental pakset, is because all other paksets were created before the experimental fork, but I might be wrong there.

I think actually it will be easier to form it with the experiemental engine in mind, and then adapt it to standard and take what is needed. Because the experiemental has more variables (for instance upgradepaths and liverys). In a Standard edition, there are no way to make a car appear in two ways, nor the possibility to upgrade or set a comfort, and this might affect the choices we make. Then its in my opinion better to make the desicions as detailed as possible, and then take what is needed to make a Standard pak.

In order to make such an idea with 'building' the factory more likely to be accepted by the simutrans community, I think some things are very very important:

* Building time over at least one year = reducing micromanagement, and making it possible to earn money.
* Time between spawning about one year = also reducing micromanagement.
* It should choose the nearest possible resources, and only a few (maybe 1-3 different types)
* If no resources are available (=empty map, or lack of some chains), it should 'cheat' and just have the currently not available resources in stock. If all stock are full by default, just place the industry!
* You code it ;)

Regarding the vehicle load, it would be an awesome feature, and implemented right, would not make it very difficult for players, rather enhance their experience. But I will ask James at some point :)

You definitely should have a look at experimental! ;)

On the Server, under document/color.png, you can find the SJ color scheme.

Nice! You find information like carving in butter! :D

I have downloaded Vladkis signs and putted them into the game.
Here is a screenshoot:

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/vladki-skyltar.jpg?w=1200)

Even though the signs are very nice (!!) I think they is maybe little too big? Vladki, is it very difficult for you to resize them, or if you find it too timeconsuming (boring :P ) is it ok if I or someone else are resizing them? What do you all think?

I have finally got to upload some of the sources to the Max-Max-server, so you can check them out there. Only uploaded the trains since I can not create folders so all the dats and pngs would just lie in the same folder and become a mess.....

Im starting to pinpoint out which sleepcars should be included. I think some newbuilt is allways needed, but they should be upgradeable too but not too many cars are needed! :)
thinking, thinking...........

Im sitting and looking for sleepcars. Well I found some and realized that some cars I already painted are capable of having beds.

But the question is:
Most of the 'real' old sleepcars have the littera BC-something, which means they are a combo of 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 class. I have deliberated avoided any car having two classes, since this makes it complicated to program since the simutranscars only can hold one cargo at a time. One way to do it is to make two cars out of it, one containing the graphic and one of the classes, one containing just space and the other class, much like the pak.britain-Ex boats are dooing right now. It is a workaround and I dont like it very much since it complicates the depot proces, making it very difficult to get an overview. I have actually already done this with some of the smal 'Spårvagnar' (no idea to phrase that word in english, but the smallest train in my set of trains :P ) where there are both people and mail holds.

What do you think?

Quote from: Ves on March 01, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Even though the signs are very nice (!!) I think they is maybe little too big? Vladki, is it very difficult for you to resize them, or if you find it too timeconsuming (boring :P ) is it ok if I or someone else are resizing them? What do you all think?

It is easy to reduce the height of the pole. However making the signs smaller would be equal to painting them again. I may do them if you agree on the final size. I can prepare one sign in different sizes as a sample. However I do not mind if somebode else does the modifications. I was planign to prepare blue highway sign and variants with yellow/red pole, and some signs for sharp turns, but I'll wait until the size is agreed.

Just a note to the sleepcars. They should have - low capacity (30-50), high loading time, and high comfort to allow for at least 8 hours ride. (somewhere around 200 and more). Anyway it might be quite tricky to get them balanced right.

The convertible Bc cars (at least the czech version) can have either 6 beds per compartment (and one compartment reserved for service), or 8 sitting places. You can either ignore it and just use it as 6 per compartment, or make two versions - Bc-sleeping and Bc-sitting, upgradable in depot at no cost.

Yeah i realize that there are gonna be much upgrading in the depot from the post I posted about that proposal :-P yes, I thought also that there could be two versions of those cars which are both daytime cars and verses, it was just the dilemma that half of the BC cars is 1class and the other half is 2class. Those require two different comfort ratings, but which is not possible yet. Some of those cars in the beginning of the century had the 'massive' capacity of 10 sleeping travelers. Of course this is on first class. That car is gonna have a high comfort rating...
Most of the coupe-cars at the time could be converted between bed and sitting

Sorry, my last post was maybe a bit unclear.. have to stop posting in the middle of the night! :P

I have looked even deeper in to which sleeping vehicles could be incorporated in the pak and im getting closer to a conclusion i think!
But we have to decide how to handle when 1'st and 2'nd and 3'rd class is involved in the same car, since one vehicle cannot hold two different cargos.

One solution is to make one car out of two vehicles (as I wrote in earlier post) one vehicle containing the graphics and loading first class and one without any graphics but loading second class. These two vehicles are forced together, never to be separated with constraints.
An other way is to imagine the entire car as a first class car, with the seat numbers it would have if it infact where first class (requiring some guesswork here....) and add upp to with overcrowding to the cars factual seatlimit. This should drag down the comfort rating when the car is getting overcrowded and (hopefully) make it level in comfort with a second class or third class car. What do you think?

Some of these cars are also not dedicated sleepcas, but cars with coupés where the sofa could be made into a bed, requiring as vladki suggest, two different vehicles to represent one.


Repainted the 40-generationcars with the colorscheme from Max-Max.
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/rc3b6da-40-talsvagnar.jpg?w=1200)
Maybe little too much in the red corner...? :)

I believe the X6 EMU's for suburban traffic were of a similar red (as well as white) livery, and I believe also that the 100-seater suburban loco-hauled stock had a similar red livery, so it might be that they had such a bright red colour.

I have seen this read color on some early Litt G. SJ seemed to have quite bright colors in the early 1900.

I made a concatenator pole in SketchUp from various notes, reports and half blueprints :P I'm not sure from what period this is, but I believe it is the first half of 1900.

Some of the pictures of the real life cars from that generation, shows a 'very' red car, but the paint tend to get more brown/white during the ages.
We'll I'll leave it there for the moment. :)

Maxmax your details are wonderful! Have you tried to render it for the game? Just use my catenaries as a template.
What about the car you made earlier?

It's a shame now you made all those details, that the cannot be visible in the game, but maybe you are hoping for the simutrans 3D ;)

Quote from: Ves on March 04, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
Maxmax your details are wonderful! Have you tried to render it for the game? Just use my catenaries as a template.
What about the car you made earlier?

When I saw all those drawings I felt the urge to do them in SketchUp. I still have to figure out how to best transfer them to Blender for some proper rendering.

Quote from: Ves on March 04, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
It's a shame now you made all those details, that the cannot be visible in the game, but maybe you are hoping for the simutrans 3D ;)

I put in as many details as possible so we can scale them up and down as we like and if there ever will be a Simutrans 3D or another 3D train simulator. As it looks now I'm thinking of writing a Blender Export filter to SketchUp or a SketchUp Import filter in Blender.

With all these details I start to think if we should go for a 192 or even a 256 pak instead? :P

***EDIT***
Seems like I managed to import from SketchUp without to much hussle. I just need to plan a bit when I design the objects.

How ever, I need some fundamental info.

1) Are we designing for Experimental or Standard?

2) Is this going to be a PAK 128, 192 or 256?

3) Standard has implemented the half slope patch, do we know if this will be implemented in Experimental at all and should be design the half slope version?

As far as I'm concern, experimental will adopt the new half height and climate zones. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
I thought that we could make this for experimental, to get all these functions. If you can agree on that (and no one else is making some really good arguments against it) I think we should head for that!

I must admit that making a pak 256 would be awesome. But then my works would be lost. However I think about it, it might be possible to just double up the size on my paintings. Then they would look exactly as now, just twice the size and I would have to add all the details not yet visible....
Is it at all possible to compile a pak that size?
At least I don't think that the packing program I'm using can do it... How do you pak files from sources?

PAK256 looks terrible (as does 192 in my opinion) due to the inflexibility of the tiles making large things look cumbersome and rigid.The oddity of the excessive width of ways and tiles becomes even more obvious at such a large scale, too.

If things looks odd or not in 192 or 256 has nothing to do with tile size. No one is forcing us to use the whole tile as a road, we can still define and use proportions that looks right, just bigger end more detailed.

I think the truth is that a smaller pak size is really out of proportions, having different scales for vehicles and buildings. I think a 256 pak will be more close to some more realistic overall proportions. In the end we can decide these proportions ourself...

I just downladed the 192 pak comic to try a bigger tilesize, and I got a little deja vu from when I first time tried pak 128 after playing pak 64. You could really zoom in to the details! Also I noted that there might come some sort of limit somewhere to this kind of pixel-game that Simutrans is. The graphic is getting inconsistent, eg shadows on other objects are missing, vehicle cornerings etc. Simply, it risks to looks like a picture moving around on the screen, instead of an actual train traveling on the rails. Because you expect to see even more details like the mechanics on the old steam engines moving, more rotations between the directions. The game cannot fool the human eye too much. Junna, isnt this what you mean?

I dont know where that limit would come though.

I tried, to rescale some cars, and i must say, that if its gonna be a bigger size than 128, then it must be 256, since 192 would be equal to scale it with 1.5, making the rescaling very very difficult.
Any way its a big big step to rescale everything, so there really should be something to gain and some very good solutions presented to make the graphic inconsistence not so present.

But for the moment, I must say my vote go for the 128 size. Maxmax, your wonderful models, you could still save for the sake of a simutrans 3D ;)

Any thoughts on this?

Hey everyone, and sorry I've not been able to participate lately. I have still read every message that has been posted and the discussion has been very interesting. I have my high school final exams going on and they will keep me occupied for a couple of weeks more.

I just wanted to briefly comment the issue of different tilesizes. I totally agree with Max-Max with regards to the roads reserving the whole tile. The biggest problem I have with simutrans graphics in general is that cities tend to be more pavement than buildings due to the disproportionate scaling of roads, and narrower roads would open some very interesting possibilities with sidewalks, special road markings in intersection etc. But I understand that for pixel-artists bigger tiles mean a lot more work, and the current graphics being all 128-sized I think the current size is the way to go. I would have no problem with painting bigger graphics though, if that is what we end up with.

Quote from: vorlon on March 06, 2014, 10:14:04 AM
Hey everyone, and sorry I've not been able to participate lately. I have still read every message that has been posted and the discussion has been very interesting. I have my high school final exams going on and they will keep me occupied for a couple of weeks more.

I just wanted to briefly comment the issue of different tilesizes. I totally agree with Max-Max with regards to the roads reserving the whole tile. The biggest problem I have with simutrans graphics in general is that cities tend to be more pavement than buildings due to the disproportionate scaling of roads, and narrower roads would open some very interesting possibilities with sidewalks, special road markings in intersection etc. But I understand that for pixel-artists bigger tiles mean a lot more work, and the current graphics being all 128-sized I think the current size is the way to go. I would have no problem with painting bigger graphics though, if that is what we end up with.

real life has to go first ;)

I personally would not mind to convert my objects to another tilesize or to paint new stuff for a bigger tilesize. I like painting!
My concern is what Junna pointed out, the limitations of this kind of game, which might get overexagerated when using a big tilesize.
Some of the limitations that Im refering to:

* No antialliasing / blending between objects and the ground.
* Only 8 views for vehicles. Makes the cornering a 'jump' between different views. If there was maybe 16 or 32 views, then a smooth curve could be made, but I wont be drawing 32 views of the same car. Ever! ;-)
* No 'climb'-textures for vehicles. The default south/north, east/west images are shown when vehicles are climbing a hill.
* The ways also have only 8 directions, no smooth transition in corners and the 3- or 4 directions rail texture would be difficult to get realistic since all rail vehicles can turn either way.

I think these issues are easier to forgive when using a smaller tilesize so you "can not zoom in on all the uglineses". Big tilesize invites for more details and more expectations of some of these things.

I think that the comic pak.192 is dealing with these issues as to not aim for a 'realistic look', but a comic look (NOO.....!? ;) ). A cartoonish look which does not invite the player to expect the world to be realistic in the way which for instance pak britain does.


Look at it like the wodden BRIO-trains: They have a very typical design and a relative small size. The design and convention of the briotrain is the Simutrans engine, and whatever you paint on the BRIO-car is our pak. As long as the wooden train-car has that small size, its easy with some paint to convince yourself that 'this is a RC-loco'. Your imagination fills in the gap.
If you instead made the brio train-car huge, 1 m wide, I assume you would have some problems accepting that 'this as a very good representation of a RC-loco' no matter how much details you have painted on it. It would still contain the big plastic wheels, the track would still be what it is, and it would still be a flatsided cube.
The best solution to this would be to go over to Märklin or some other model-train hobby to get all the juicy details, but as we are not able to just switch the mechanics of Simutrans, we have to go with the BRIO-train.

(this is not meant to be any offence to the Simutras engine or its designers, Im just exagerating a little to describe my point ;) )


So, the solution to this 'equation', I think will be:
The more realistic, "serious", that we want the pak to be, the smaller it has to be.
The more comic, cartoonish, "obviously not realistic", we want the pak, the more we can afford to go up in tilesize, making the player not expect a perfect world.


Does this sound reasonable? :)
What do you think?

And finally, which pak should we aim for?
Im voting for 128 ;)

Quote from: Max-Max on March 05, 2014, 05:02:25 PM
If things looks odd or not in 192 or 256 has nothing to do with tile size.

It does. Ponder this: at a bend, because the game only has 45 degree turns, parts of a vehicle will always overlap with another tile. How much increases with the length of the vehicle, but the appearance of this will be further exacerbated by the tile dimension; the larger the tile, the more jagged the look of the movement will become. Consequently, in pak.192 it looks a lot worse than in pak.96, and pak64 generally looks best (as regards the annoying nature of the overlap). The vehicle proportions in this pak are already quite large, so would look absolutely ridiculous if it was 256.

Well, my point was that just because it is bigger than 128 doesn't mean it automatically looks bad. I'm all in for 128 if that is what the majority wants ;)

I have been experimenting with Blender to generate images for 128 and one of the biggest problems are when details are so thin that they all are antialiased. To remove the blueish background border around each object (due to anti aliasing) I'm masking out all anti aliased pixels, meaning small details will completely disappear.

I'm experimenting in the Compositor to somehow "save" these "weak" pixels.

But beside that I have managed to import from SketchUp and have it scaled correctly to 24m/tile :)

I have spent an enormous time thinking about varying pak sizes and the challenges of trying to create a visually appealing final product in Simutrans.

I came to the rapid conclusion that bigger is not better, for two reasons:
1) The player spends a lot of his/her time zoomed out, so the detail is largely lost.
2) When zoomed out, you not only lose the fine detail that you worked so hard to create but you are also losing quality due to the algorithm used to zoom the artwork out.  A pak128 object will not look as nice as a similarly designed pak64 object when the pak128 object is zoomed out to 2:1. (the pak192.comic can escape this because of its bold outline and solid colouring style, it looks very nice with a large image size)
3) Larger pak sizes require exponentially more work to create the art and take up more memory

I have done a lot of pak128 objects with Blender, several published items and volumes of unpublished work (either unfinished or test objects).  If you put the PNG created by Blender through GIMP's Threshold Alpha remover, you can quickly strip the "haze" that you get from the alpha blending on your finished object and create a really nice end product.

Detail does look better, in my view, but only add detail items that will show up in the end render at the size you are aiming for.

I present an aerial photograph:

(http://www.ssgholdings.ca/simutrans/images/aerial.png)

This is taken in a similar angle to our isometric view.  Look at the detail!  And yet, this barely pak64 size.

Take a close look at the building on the right side:

(http://www.ssgholdings.ca/simutrans/images/aerial2.png)

This building is 64 pixels by 59 pixels, including the sidewalks!

A few things I note:

1) Consistent lighting.  Very important.  If you want your pakset to look good your lighting levels have to be similar.
2) Very few shadows.  The few shadows that are there play little part in making the image believable.
3) Despite the zoomed in appearance being a complete mess of pixels, it looks amazing when zoomed out.  Even zoomed to 50% and 25%, the detail is still incredible.
(http://www.ssgholdings.ca/simutrans/images/aerial3.png)

The human eye has an amazing ability to pattern match and decide what these objects are even though the actual pixel representation is somewhat random in appearance.

Look at a few cars in the parking lot:

(http://www.ssgholdings.ca/simutrans/images/aerial4.png)

You can barely even tell what this is.  Yet, when you see it in the image, you can see that it's cars in a parking lot immediately.  Why?  Because your eyes/brain can instantly infer from the surrounding objects what that must be (primarily from the painted lines)... and because it decides it's a parking lot, the cars look exactly like what your brain has decided they are... even though they are just blobs of black and grey pixels.  In the zoomed picture it's hard to determine what you're looking at...yet in the regular zoom picture you know instantly that you're looking at 5 cars side by side.

I am really starting to edge towards a pak64 or pak96 size as being optimal for Simutrans, if the graphics are done right.  One limitation we do have, however, is that we lack an alpha channel blending between objects, so edges will be a bit more sharp and won't blend smoothly together.  This is especially limiting with trees and other foliage.

That truly looks amazing and it is a good analyse. However, highres monitors are being more and more used. I tried to play Pak64 on my 2560x1440 monitor and find it far to little. Zooming in only makes it worse and even the Font text is a little bit to small. The tool buttons and dialog elements are also in the smallest (hence why I tried to make the theme update to Simutrans Standard).

For a highres monitor, such as mine, 128 is about the minimum size, not smaller. I also propose that we make the tool buttons larger than the standard.

To remove the anti aliasing in Gimp might be an alternative, as long it can be automated from a command file.

Very interesting reasearch and thankyou very much for sharing it! :)

Quote1) The player spends a lot of his/her time zoomed out, so the detail is largely lost.

Im actually playing mostly zoomed in, so I can see what Im doing ;) But you are right, that most players maybe play zoomed out most of the time.

Quote1) Consistent lighting.  Very important.  If you want your pakset to look good your lighting levels have to be similar.

This is very true! Im waiting for how the renderings from Max-Max will look like, and adapt my work towards it. We where talking earlier about having a more special northern lighting, due to our contries are more northern. Maxmax would do some research on this I think?

Quote2) Very few shadows.  The few shadows that are there play little part in making the image believable.

What do you mean? I think it looks like there are very much shadows on the picture you present..? Maybe even little too much, because you barely can see what is on the side turning away from the sun, but this is maybe not what you mean? Anyway, this should also be coordinated between all objects together with the ligting.

Very interesting with the car-parking"blob". It really is the brain making it a car-parking!
So, if you were about to start up a new pakset, you would use 64 or 96 tilesize?

I'd probably use 64, if only because then you can borrow a lot of the components from other paksets to get your set up and playable fairly quickly.  Then you can upgrade those pieces one by one as time allows.  If you have the time and people to help, pak96 might be a nicer compromise.  96 is also very nicely divisible in to 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8, which is a useful benefit... though if rendering the graphics rather than hand drawing them it's not as important (depends on whether you're going for a nice hand-drawn, clean look or a purely rendered photorealistic style).

pak128 uses a sun angle of 60 degrees which roughly reflects the sun position at summer solstice roughly around northern Germany.  The downside of choosing a steeper sun angle is that the shadows become longer and while they look good on the tile itself it's hard to project shadows beyond that tile that look half decent (especially when zoomed out a bit)... especially with trees (pak128 uses the every second pixel is black method which looks alright but goes all black when zoomed out).  pak128.Britain does away with shadows altogether (as on a very cloudy day, which seems apt for a British pakset :) ).

What I meant about the shadows in the aerial photograph I sent is that they don't play any significant factor in you needing the shadow information to determine what is on the picture.  The shadows are mostly lying on the road behind the buildings and aren't that important.  If you removed the shadows you would hardly notice they are gone.

(http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~joel/g110_w08/lecture_notes/sun_angle/agburt02_17b.jpg)

Once you come up with a few renders you like, you should probably do like pak128.Britain does and establish a common lighting setup that can be used by everyone to maintain consistency.  The intensity of your shadows will be an important component on the lighting setup (whether to use a stronger environmental lighting and less bright sun or vice versa).

Here is an attempt on smaller roadsigns. Actually I just used the saize used for pak64, which is actually quite exactly the right scale - height is cca half of the railway electrification poles, and with a bit less that railway gauge. For comparison I put also pakBritains one way sign (back-to back with mine) and bus stop with a bus (not double decker). Big sign is 10px wide, 32px high. Small sign is 5px wide, 16 px high.

I think about making something in between - 7px wide, 24px high

Those smaller signs looks just about perfect  :thumbsup:

I know you guys are waiting for my document and I'm kind'a working on it (not so much written yet), but I have written about tile size, shadows and the sun.

I have also done some major research about the train history in Sweden and collected a lot of drawings and blueprints (on the server).
I have also contacted The model railway society here in Gothenburg and the Train museum in Gävle (where a lot of the original blueprints are stored).

It seems like I have to pay some sort of fee to get copies of the blueprints, so before I go ahead, I think we should make a road map of what engines and wagons we intend to include. Then I can focus on collecting information on things we actually will include :)

I have borrowed "Svenska Ellok" from the library and I'm scanning some material, but everything isn't complete.

Quote from: Max-Max on March 09, 2014, 05:47:17 PM
Those smaller signs looks just about perfect  :thumbsup:

Just to make sure - do you mean the small red-yellow "no entry" sign? The others - blueish are bus stops from pakBritain

Quote from: Vladki on March 10, 2014, 07:30:39 AM
Just to make sure - do you mean the small red-yellow "no entry" sign? The others - blueish are bus stops from pakBritain

I mean the smallest "no entry" sign. Have you tried to make some more signs in that scale?
To me it looks like the pole is a little bit to high (compared to the bus on the road).

I have been holding on to this "design document" far too long now. This is just the very beginning of the design document, but at least we can discuss what's in there now.

You can find it on the server "Pak128Nordic_DesignDocument.pdf"

I tried to paint a shadow using the technique from the threes you described on a train car. It did not look good at all..... Made a screenshot, but it's on my computer back home at the moment. So until the simutrans engine is making up a better way to handle shadows, I think we should avoid them for the moment.

Good point about using 96 instead as 64 (or 128). I have not tried the 96 pak (there is only one?) but I think I will agree with Max that 128 is a good size, not making it too small on the screen. 

Ok, so you mean shadows should almost only be on the object itself, not cast shadows on whatever is behind?

@vladki, that small no entry sign looks very nice! Good work! :-) how are the experiments on the different sizes going?

@maxmax, you really dig like a machine! Impressive! :-)
Ironically, now I can not go in to the server and check your document, I'm not home.....

By the way, I have uploaded the vehicles on the server along with ways and crossings. There is a document in the rail-folder explaining how to operate the GIMP-file, since it might be a bit confusing with lots of layers.

Hello All
The New Photos looks very nice out.
On what do the devloper in moment work?
Can i on thuesday post some new ideas for those Pakset?

Hello greenling! Thanks for the comments :-)

Currently, I'm in the process of painting sleep cars and widening some trains (x2000 for instance) and some other stuff...
Vladki is painting signs and maxmax is gathering material and rendering.

You are most welcome to post ideas to the pakset! :-)

By the way, maxmax, I had made an excell sheet with the vehicles I have been thinking to include. It contains only the locos (gods/pax) and all passenger. I have not included any freight cars in it. It also contain information like weight, load etcetera.  I will upload it when I get home. Then we can discuss and update the file.

Here the screenshoot with the awfull ground-shadow:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/markskuggor.jpg?w=1200)
The method I have used is every second pixel black. In some way, I think then it is difficult to continue with the idea that we should have a lower sun in our pak. Any suggestions how to solve this?
Notice also that I have painted the X2000 a bit 'thicker' in order to make it match the other vehicles and also added wheels to it. I Think it looks a bit better now :)

Nice document! A bit empty at the moment, but we will fill it once we get through the work. God to have some ambitions and references in the document, so one is not getting lost in just creating pak-stuff...

Somethings that could be added:

Timespan We could ambition to have a limitted timeline, at least to start with. My suggestion is from arround 1930 to present time (this is the timespan my vehicles range). Any suggestions?
Train compagnies (in Sweden, and you could write down the compagnies in Denmark,Finland and Norway as well if you want)
Namingconvention: Big pak = many files = A MESS! We need to name stuff properly in order to not get lost. My suggestion: Countrycode_Name_Decade. This yealds for instance the pakfile: vehicle.Se_Du_1950.pak, or way_Se_50_road.pak. One has to know the name (real name) of the object in order to find it, but with this it will be easier to navigate the day pak.nordic includes more than Sweden. The reason to include the year, is that cars gets upgraded, so its called the same, but just another decade after. Also this helps one identifying the objects.


I have my excell sheet with the trains I think should be included. Im currently working on it so it will be able to be readable by someone else than me :P
writing,writing,writing...............

Well, I didn't have much time to play around with the signs. Those tiny signs are just signs from pak64, with only minor modifications - color and position. I have a complete set for pak64: (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9551.0;attach=17544;image) and (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9551.0;attach=17618;image). However thay are so tiny, that it is almost impossible to paint anything on them. And I'm afriad, they'll be almost invisible when zoomed out. I personally play pak128 mostly zoomed out so that it looks like pak64. I zoom in, and unhide trees and buildings only for amusement. However here is an attempt on signs 6 and 8 px wide - antialiased and not. Antialiased look quite good, bud the question is - what backgroud should be used for antialiasing? In the game it can be anything - road, grass, some building...

Sorry I have been away for a time.. have a lot of other work at the moment..  :)

hmm that is not good if you can not see the sign. How is the little bigger sign looking in the game?
I think the signs themself should be antialized, but not the edges of the signs. A sharp border to a smooth (and good looking  8) ) sign.

I have tried to acces the server, is it down at the moment? I have a vehiclelist I have worked on and Im sharing it on my dropboxfolder (http://goo.gl/vcXYZF) under 'documents'. its definitely not an absolute list, just a incomplete list of vehicles I could think of that would benefit the game. At the moment there are no freight cars (no true freightcars at least), no diesel/steam-engines and there are almost only SJ stuf in it.
The list is a bit messy as I have tried to fill it with as much information as possible. You can sort the information by date to get a timeline (default is by littera). The information in the file is unfortunately not 100% reliable (especially some tractive effort entries) other infos as weight and capacity and KW should be mostly accurate.

Please think about what vehicles more to include! :)

The sleepcars / cars with sleepingabilities I think should be included are: (cars with "W" in the name have slightly more comfort)

ACo4
Ao5
BC2
BC4
WLABo4
WL1
WL11
WL2
WL4
WL6

The "BC2" is an old 1940-generation car. In the 70'ties SJ had many different cars from that 1940 generation rebuilt into "BC2", and they are still using them today. There are currently 5 different cars included that could possibly be converted to BC2, meaning that I have to paint all these 5 cars in all blue and black variations. 5 cars * (3 blue variations + 1 black variation) = 20 new cars to paint!  :o

Also, I have put up some fresher compiled vehicles on the dropbox.

I have now painted the 30- and 40-generation cars with sleepcars. There are some very minor differensies in some of the variation like the roof has been made a little taller (in order to make room for more beds)
Not all variations are visible on the screenshoots, but all the paintjobs should be visible.
I also adjusted the color of the red and brown. Is it too dark?

Anyway here are the picture:

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/40-talsvagnar.jpg?w=1200)

Are you guys working on something and if, what are you doing? :)

Im planning to make the 60- and 80- generation sleepcars next....

Just plain amazing!

I'm currently caught up in a book project, but I still keep an eye on things here ;)

Thanks :)
Did you get to render that car in correct size?

Are more or less finnished with the sleepcars. It was mostly quite easy.. just copy the car variations and reconfigure the windows :)
I also made a little general polish on the 80-generation car, for instance made them one 'knot' longer and scaled the windows to fit better.

Anyway, I got inspired some nights ago to start with X55, SJ's new Regina "SJ3000" train: https://www.google.dk/search?q=x55+sj&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hh1kU525Guf8ywPhqYK4Dg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=965 (https://www.google.dk/search?q=x55+sj&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hh1kU525Guf8ywPhqYK4Dg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=965)

This is ment to be the next generation after the X2000 train.

This is the work of my two nights work:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/ritning-av-x55.jpg?w=1200)

I have only made one view as I want to get it right before I copy up and continiue with the other views. I have tried to design it so it would be easy in the future to add other liveries, using layers and neutral colors. In fact, all details are only black or white (except for the lowest part of the car and the pantograph) in different shadings, (hopefully) to make it easier later.
There are still things left to doo before I make copy to the other rotations, for instance the details on the roof (At the moment, just copyed from a loco.....). Im also a bit unsure if I got the angles right, what do you think? (look at the pictures in the google-search)
Any tips in general would be much appreciated! :)

The ordinary rotations are mostly done for this entire X-55 trainset: X55A, X55M, URB55 and X55B. There are still some issues, like getting the right angle of the roof and body.
The car is a little changed since the 'GIMP'-shoot in the previsous post, some adjustments to the black parts and the dark parts under the cars. Also the doors are little remaked to better create the illusion of the curved fuselage. I realize, looking at the screenshoot, that there are some glitching in the transition between the 3rd and 4th car (and 7th and 8th car).  :redx:

(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/nya-x55.jpg?w=1200)

In this screenshoot, there are also are visible the polished and a little longer 80-generation car. I did also change the color on the older cars, visible in the picture.

i'm really sorry about keep you so long waiting!

first at all:
your pakset is getteing greater with every post! - you got my whole respect!

on that fotos the roof semms to be really flat, i think it would be more like this:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85896215/128_x50_1.png)
i only changed the colours at the 2end car, i hope you see the difference ;)

i've rescaled the image to "original-size" - wasn't that easy, why do you zoom in?
- the only thing you're going to do with that is to destroy your own trains!

and just another thing:
do you use 3d-models or do you draw the trains/objekts by gimp?

Flemmbrav, thanks for your comments and your feedback! :-)

You are right, the roof seems more proportional on your picture than mine, you made some adjustments at the border between the cars? Did you also change the color on the roof or are my eyes fooling me? (Looking from the phone)

What do you mean with that I am zooming in? Do you mean that I should cut the image to a proper screen size instead?

I draw everything in gimp! Layer by layer :-)

Quote from: VesI draw everything in gimp!

wow!  :o
and again: big respect!
it musst take lot of time to draw trains like that!
for my part, i currently don't use that much colours 'couse simutrans won't use them.

You're right, i've changed the roof-colours of one coach, and the border of every car.

If you use the zoom simutrans will "correct" your/our objekts here and there for "better" pictures.
just take a look at the station-roof:


Also some tricks won't work. (dithering etc)

Just plain awesome!

Thank you both for your kind words! It takes some time, but I try to be as modular as possible, so I easy can adjust shadows, transitions, colors without having to redo too much. Look at all the layers in the gimp-screenshot earlier in the thread :)

You mean that you don't use so many colors between the nuances (50 shades of grey for instance ;) )?

I still don't really understand what you mean with the zooming. Do you mean that I should not zoom in inside simutrans when I'm taking a screenshot? Or are you referring to zoom in/out the picture in a picture program?

Sorry to have so many questions I'm just a guy sitting on my room and play In GIMP, which tricks do you mean that don't work? :-)

Quote from: Ves on May 08, 2014, 07:53:42 AM
I still don't really understand what you mean with the zooming. Do you mean that I should not zoom in inside simutrans when I'm taking a screenshot? Or are you referring to zoom in/out the picture in a picture program?

I think the opposite, that you should take more zoomed in shots in-game, because Simutrans has an auto-smoothing feature that evens out edges as compared to the graphics in raw png.

Quote from: Junna on May 08, 2014, 04:09:49 PM
I think the opposite, that you should take more zoomed in shots in-game, because Simutrans has an auto-smoothing feature that evens out edges as compared to the graphics in raw png.

But I usually zoom in as much as possible when Im taking a screenshot in Simutrans. I cant get closer to the trains..? The screenshot I originately took, is what I see on my screen when I zoom max in.

Hi,

I have been quite busy lately, so I did not play anymore with roadsings. And because the development of swedish vehicles tends to be focused on trains, I have decided to leave the roadsings as they are. I have tries the small (pak64) size in game. I think it is ok, as long as bright colours are used. However it is extremely hard to paint anything sensible in 5x5 pixels, so I did not do anything more. If there are more road vehicles and roads added to pak.sweden, I'm willing to reopen the issue and paint more signs in requested size (10x10 or 5x5) if needed. So far enjoy the big ones and feel free to modify them: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/

However I decided to go on with railway signs. First attempt on mechanical semaphore is attached. It is modified from pak128.Britain. Only the front side is done. I have no idea what coulour shall be the back side. And I am not sure if the signals are supposed to be on the right or left side of the track. Photos from this site are not helpful: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/sweden/signals.htm

I plan to do also the other signals - long (two arms, two greens), choose (three arms, three greens). For one-way and end-of-choose I plan to use dwarf signals (stop and free respectively)

I have problem with pre-signal. I wanted to use distant signal, but swedish signaling uses flashing light which are impossible in simutrans. So it would be confusing that green one normal signal is "free" and green on pre-signal is "expect stop". Any suggestions?

Update: I have found the colors for the backside, updated pak. uploaded.

The pak developes into what people developes for it. I like trains, so I just began with that...
I liked your principles on roadsigns, so I hope you will continue working on them later on!

The signals are in general placed on the left hand, since the rail traffic also is left hand traffic.

Do you intend to use the distant signal as a twoblock signal? Then maybe just put a red and a green or yellow lamp in it?

It looks like the pole is a little thick? When I look at the pictures of the original signals, the "pole" looks very long and very narrow, almost thinner than the arms. Would you like to try and experimenting making the pole one or two pixel tighter? I know you said your signal is based on the brittish pak, I suppose they are rendered?

Maybe some day a signal could be allowed to have more images animated. showing a flashing light.... (MaxMax? :::) )
There is also the old topic about true distant signals and other signal behaviours: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7090.0 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7090.0) But I dont think anything came out of that..

If you lack pictures of signals, search on google for "svenska signaler" or "svenska semaforer"

Keep up the good work!

I just took the semaphore pole from pak128.britain (it is the same as for pak128), and have only redrawn the arm. I wanted to get the arms right first, then maybe replacing the pole. But it is no problem to make it thinner. I found that the semaphore pole shall be painted red/yellow, but I could not find that info for light signals.

Well, here are the modern (light) signals. For pre-signal (two-block signal) I have tried to do the swedish Försignal, but it is definitely not that round as it should be. Improvements are welcome. I decided to use more common yellow/green colors for that, so that players who are used to other paksets feel comfortable. The screenshot pictures choose signal, and end-of-choose signals.

All sources will be soon on my web: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/

Any idea what signs to use for old-style end-of-choose and one-way instead of dwarf signals?

Hello! Nice with some fine signals!
I downloaded them and put them into my testfacility with these results:

Modern main signal and one of the dwarfes:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dvc3a4rgsignalhuvudsignal-v-1.jpg?)

Choose signal:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/choosesignal-v-1.jpg?)

Semaphor:
(http://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/semaforer-v-1.jpg?)

I forgot to take a photo of the distant signal.

My first impression is that they are a hair bigger than the scale used on the trains. at least the dwarf and the modern signals. Also they should be moved some pixels closer to the centrum, now one get confused which track to which signal!?

I made a little calculation:

I found information that the with of such a daytime signal (the electric light signals) is about 60cm wide.

24m/tile   /    16 tilesteps    =      1,5m/tilestep
1,5m/tilestep    /    4 pixels =       0,37m/pixel

This means that a perfect in scale signal should be two pixels wide......! which very small.
But therefore just for experiementing: Would you like to paint the signals in 3 or 4 pixels with, see how it looks? I suppose the signals are now about 5 or 6 pixels wide? This means that the lamps of the signal will be 1 or 2 pixels big. It might look horrible, but who knows :)
Usually I paint the lamps on my vehicles 1 pixel big, but sometime with a glowe if its a little bigger and more 'important' lamp.

In the real world, its the centre of the signal OR the centre of the red lamp (depending on era), that should be at cabride height.

Do you still have acces to MaxMax server? There is a section about signals in there, with some simple signs that very well could be used to simulate blocked track and end of choose. For instance there is a sketch in "stopp.gif" in the signals folder, which contains a round and a square sign. The round is yellow and red, the square is yellow and green.

The signals are not yet aligned for left hand side. Please switch them to right hand for now.

I can try narrower (now it is 6 px, so I'll try 4 px), but I would not go for lights smaller than two pixels. One pixel lights are good for old semaphores - their light was much weaker, and maybe also dwarf signals could work with one pixel ligths.

Btw what signal is that near the rail crossing on the second picture?

Yes I have all the docs from FTP. I almost forgot about them...

Ah ok! I will put them right hand tonight!

Ok, try out with 4 pixels!

The signal near the railcrossing is a part of the railcrossing itself and only eye candy. It shifts between red and white. I think that the sources to it is on the server as we'll. that signal should preferably have about the same size and dimensions as your signals. I think it's 3 pixels now..

Typically the Swedish signal poles are simply grey steel, much more slender than the pak128/etc signal pole. Probably be fine to just recolour them from that odd brownish.

This thread is starting to become very long and difficult to overview. Maybe starting a new topic regarding signals and continue discussions about that there? If someone with moderatorabilities happens to fall over this thread reading this, that person is more than welcome to take out the signals part (latest 7-8 posts) and create a new thread with those.
Hmmm... Maybe also some other topics/parts would deserve to get their own thread....

So... If someone wants to discuss a topic not discussed before, open a new thread! :-)

Det är en mycket bra idé!! Jag laddade ner det men det funkade inte :-[ Någon som vet vad som kan vara fel?

Quote from: Mr.Spissky on August 23, 2015, 12:32:19 AM
Det är en mycket bra idé!! Jag laddade ner det men det funkade inte :-[ Någon som vet vad som kan vara fel?

Vad trevligt att du vill testa! :)
För att det ska funka behöver du följande:
Simutrans Experiemental med tillhörande Pak128.Britain-Ex-0.9.1
Du behöver göra en kopia av Pak128.Britain-Ex-0.9.1 (kopiera mappen helt enkelt) och döpa om den nya mappen till nåntinga annat, typ Pak.Sweden
Placera .Pakfilen du laddat ned i den mappen.
Leta sen rätt på "Simuconf.tab" (befinner sig i pak-mappen -> config -> Simuconf.tab) och ersätt det nedersta stycke om livery med det som står i "Livery - Add to Simuconf.tab.txt".
Då ska det gärna funka :)

Har precist färdiggjort några nya fordon och lite andra saker, som jag kommer inkludera i filen inom kort.

Som du säkert förstår, så är detta ett hack, och det enda som är möjligt för tillfället är att köra ut tågen på spåren o låta dem köra runt där. Det går tyvärr inte att spela ett spel med ekonomi osv.

Tack!! :)

Om du använder det tillsammans med ett annat pak-sätt kan du spela med det, dock. Fast det är inte särskilt visuellt tillfredställande.

Kan man få stationerna och isåfall hur?

Jag har nog inte lagt till stationsbyggnaderna till den pakfilen än. Jag ska snarast köra ihop några nya pakfiler där dessa och lite annat får följa med.

Now I got time to put the new vehicles and also the station on the dropbox

---

Nu har jag hunnit få ihop stationen och plattformarna och uppdaterat med de nyaste fordonen, de ligger på dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/za2mzif7k9oxy92/AAAe2tv29ubD6eDFwLo1kPWga?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/za2mzif7k9oxy92/AAAe2tv29ubD6eDFwLo1kPWga?dl=0)

Any comments are, as always, welcome!

This does look splendid. Are there any plans to make an Experimental version of this?

Quote from: jamespetts on August 28, 2015, 09:17:59 AM
This does look splendid. Are there any plans to make an Experimental version of this?

This is indeed intended to be used with experimental!
The pak files in the Dropbox is compiled with the experimental makeobj and are currently featuring liveries and upgrades.

How splendid! It would be good to have another Experimental pakset.

Glad you think that! If you want to test, I probably don't need to tell you how to install the pak files. ;)
Only remember to add the liveries from the file in Dropbox to the simuconf.cfg!

Are these a complete set, or do I need .pak files from another pakset to make it work (and, if so, which ones)?

The name of the file specifies what's inside them. So only train vehicles, and some stops are there.  No ground, tracks, system or anything else. Therefore you need to drop them inside an existing pakset for the moment.
I'm working on compiling the whole pak.sweden from sources so it will be independent, but for the moment this workaround is the way.

Which pakset do you recommend using for the other things - Pak128, Pak128.Britain, or something else?

Despite the very different looking graphics, I would just go for the default pak Britain experimental. However I have "sunk" the rails into the ground, and if I don't recall wrong, neither the Britain experimental pak, nor the pak128 standard-experimental version have sunken rails.
Reason I haven't included rails from the pictures with correct depth with the Dropbox files, is that I have painted the slopes with half height, although that's not possible a the moment in simutrans experimental :-)

It is if you compile from the devel-new branch, but that is not currently stable.

I know that, but compiling is not the most easy thing for me. Everything I've painted till now works on the current release, only that slopes on the rails looks quite weird. However I will compile later on when more stuff is painted!

Edit:
If you by the way have any comments regarding the things in the Dropbox files, you are very welcome to comment/ make suggestions!

I have had a brief look at this: it is rather nice! I do not have much expertise in Swedish railways, but the train graphics are splendid indeed. (The train and station graphics do have some alignment issues when used with Pak128.Britain track, but perhaps that will be solved when you have your own track for this).

There will come a time when this pakset deserves its own subforum...

Thank you! I will work on the tracks to get it right, then it hopefully won't look _that_ bad!

James, did you try also with the swedish tracks?

I only used the things that were in the Dropbox folderand I could not see any  Swedish tracks there. Are they somewhere else, or have I somehow missed something in the Dropbox folder?

No they wasn't in the Dropbox folder. I will finish the tracks so they can be used properly on the current release of experimental, only I'm not home so can earliest upload in next week.

Edit: clarifying text

Ive modified the rail designs (to work properly on single heights) and have put the rails but also roads into the dropbox folder as well as crossings and catenaries.
The the rails have some glitches, especially the winterview, I didnt notice them until I had printed them all out, but that should be fixed occassionally.

Just put add the *.pak files to the folder, no need to overwrite anything.

(This thread has been moved to the new board for the pak. Just a heads up. Apologies to everyone who sees this message multiple times)