Awhile (three years) back we discussed the Pharmaceuticals factory:
Quote from: jamespetts on September 13, 2009, 09:52:23 AM
...it was (and, I think, still is eventually) intended to have gasworks, which take an input of coal and produce an output of chemicals (albeit in a far lower proportion than coal, since most of it is turned to gas...). [[And that the]] pharmaceutical factories [[accept the chemicals]]
Being as the current graphics, circa 1920, are anachronistic for 1860 -- poured concrete not being widely used until the twentieth century -- perhaps something more like this?
(http://www.wlindley.com/images/simutrans/pharm-1860.jpg)
And would we want to finally update the chain so the 1860 pharmaceuticals factory requires both veg and chemicals, and accordingly add chemicals to the gasworks, now that we have one?
p.s., The Mills images still need snow, which I shall tackle once I nail down exactly which buildings are in it.
Wlindley
You have here a good idea but i don't know who gas works make chemicals.
The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasworks) explains how Gasworks created both Coke and Tar products. Tar was used in some pharmaceuticals.
wlindley
thank you and i got a idea.
Lovely. Wonder if we could have a few more boxes lying around in the yard? You also reminded me the gasworks never made it into standard pak128.Britain...
This is rather splendid!
Do you have a dat for this as well now you've done snow images?
wlindley, what's the current status on this? I'd love to add it to SVN...
Ah! I had mislaid this thread.... do let me pick it up again. Thank you for the reminder.
The 'mills' set of images that I created, is only used by the Ironworks so far. I am revising the set, correcting pixel errors and adding in hopes ofto permiting these early factories:
- 1910 car factory
- 1850 hardware factory
- 1950 car factory, similar to current graphics but coded with fields
As for the Pharma. factory: is the 1860 gasworks going to provide Chemicals?
1860 gasworks can provide chemicals if it needs to - I feel like a complete industrialist megalomaniac with too much power!
Just to check - are there any historical precedents for synthetic pharmaceuticals from the 1860s?
However, there is a difficulty here. It is realistic enough for a gasworks to produce chemicals used by the pharmaceutical industry (whether or not as early as the 1860s, the earliest synthetic pharmaceuticals were indeed made from coal tar residues), but if the gasworks is coded in game as a producing factory rather than as a consumer, then it will consume no coal unless somebody is buying its chemicals. In reality, of course, the chemicals were just byproducts that were sold if there was a market for them, and the main function was to produce gas, which was transported by pipe, not vehicle. Gasworks should not stop consuming coal merely because people are not buying the byproducts (which would have been emptied into a river in 1860, I imagine, if nobody wanted them).
This might call for a code change to allow designated industries to consume even when they cannot produce any more. In theory, this should be relatively easy to code, but would require stepping the pakset version to add a new parameter.
I'm going to add my work on new industry graphics to this topic, to avoid duplication of work (and rename it as new industry graphics). First up, two new breweries, an early one for the 1750 industry and a modern one for post-war.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/1549/j2i8.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img822/125/x6fy.jpg)
Very nice! Of course, with them being different sizes, they will no longer upgrade to each other in Experimental. Are either of them the same size as the existing 19th century brewery? It might be best not to have too many size differences between industries of the same type in different eras to avoid upgrade problems.
I wasn't aware of that. I went smaller on the principle that earlier industries tended to be smaller affairs...
Understandable - perhaps you could put smaller industries in larger grounds for the early ones? The difficulty in upgrading to different sizes is the difficulty in re-siting a multi-tile building.
Upgrading industries increasing in size seems reasonable. After all, many breweries which would have been near the centre of towns would have been moved to industrial estates on the outskirts as time went on.
The trouble is, there is currently no code to allow them to move to the outskirts of the same town, or move at all and still be connected to the same suppliers, etc. They can only upgrade in situ or close down and leave a slot in the industry density figures for some other industry to open somewhere else. Indeed, is that not what normally happens - do industries not either upgrade in situ or move a very long way away? Certainly, the Burton-on-Trent brewery has upgraded in situ, has it not?
Experimental has the industry upgrading option, it's up to you to code how to deal with this. Upgrading industries is something I'd be thinking about maybe adding to standard eventually so might think of something with regards to that. Over time industries to generally move to larger premises - there's certain exceptions, but for example coal mines, steel mills, farms, car factories all tend to get larger with time.
TheHood's modern brewery could be coded as three separate 1x1 buildings (half of the shed [which would be repeated twice to get what we see above], the tanks, and the "office" building [bottom tile in the above image]). Then define the modern brewery as a 1x2 factory (the office building and the tanks) with at least two "Fields" -- where the fields are the tank tile and the shed tile (perhaps with the tank tile having twice the probability as the shed tile). That would let it upgrade in place, wouldn't it?
Ah but if it's surrounded by buildings then the fields will never get built.
It would seem sensible to me to allow relocating to the outskirts when upgrading if it isn't possible to extend into adjacent squares (even allowing for knocking down citybuildings but not attractions/roads/other industries perhaps?).
wlindley, I could do you some field versions but I'm worried we'll end up duplicating work. Which industries exactly are you planning on making graphics for and I'll avoid them. I find it much easier to just do everything in blender and then use tilecutter - I've got lots of 3D model parts that can just be moved around then rendered easily now, hence why I'm not going modular with my own creations.
EDIT: And a new modern brickworks (same size as older graphics)
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3968/jjp1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/jjp1.jpg/)
The trouble is with code for "relocating to the outskirts" is that it is not at all easy: first of all, we have to have code for knowing what the "outskirts" are, exactly; that is difficult when an industry is in a town, but impossible when it is already in the countryside. Suppose that there is not enough space in the existing "outskirts" of a town; what then? How far out of the centre of the town counts as "outskirts"? Can the town border be extended to include the new industry? If so, how far can it be extended?
There is then the troubling matter of the relocation itself. Goods destined to a factory know that that they are destined for that particular factory by storing the exact position of their destination. If the factory is no longer in that position, the goods will no longer know that they are bound for that particular factory, and will be discarded. This includes all goods shipped by the supplier but not yet picked up, as well as goods en route; yet goods en route count towards the "in transit" figures and will stop more goods being produced by the supplier factory. Further, of course, relocation is as disruptive for players and their transport connexions as closing and reopening elsewhere: existing connexions would need to be severed and closed, and new connexions built.
Overall, there is no advantage in principle to "upgrading" if the factory moves to simply shutting it down and opening a new one; and if one is going that far, there is only a small advantage to shutting it down and opening a new factory of the same type with the same suppliers and consumers as there is to shutting it down finally and letting the industry density system create a new factory of any type in due course, which is the current state of things in any event.
The new brickworks, however, looks excellent.
I'll resolve these issues in Standard with an upgrade mechanism in that. If you wanted to merge that into Experimental you'd be welcome to of course, otherwise the responsibility of solving them lies with you.
Quote from: kierongreen on August 21, 2013, 11:40:12 AM
I'll resolve these issues in Standard with an upgrade mechanism in that. If you wanted to merge that into Experimental you'd be welcome to of course, otherwise the responsibility of solving them lies with you.
Ahh, interesting, industry upgrading in Standard; might I enquire how you plan to make it work? If you can find a way of solving these problems in Standard, it would certainly be worthwhile merging such code into Experimental. Might I suggest that you use the same .dat file parameters as used by Experimental to avoid duplication?
Edit: I should add that it seems to me that a number of the components required to do this might well overlap significantly with the components required to achieve multi-tile city buildings (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=12337.0), which would also be a worthwhile thing to have in Standard.
QuoteAhh, interesting, industry upgrading in Standard; might I enquire how you plan to make it work?
The Hood has a lot of suggestions in his post. If we're extending city buildings to be more than 1x1 then code for replacing will already be there. Only difficulty will be if road layout, monuments or attraction block factor expansion. Landscape could potentially be an issue for both city and rural factories. In all cases I'm thinking opening a warning that a factor is closing down soon might work? Possibly linking to new factory at same time? The new factory could "open" immediately but have 0 production/consumption until the old factory shut down, or it could slowly transfer over or... well, I think it's a case of everyone chipping in ideas. It all depends on citybuilding code being revamped though, and realistically I think that might not be until after we've had a stable release.
Quote from: kierongreen on August 21, 2013, 04:42:28 PM
The Hood has a lot of suggestions in his post. If we're extending city buildings to be more than 1x1 then code for replacing will already be there. Only difficulty will be if road layout, monuments or attraction block factor expansion. Landscape could potentially be an issue for both city and rural factories. In all cases I'm thinking opening a warning that a factor is closing down soon might work? Possibly linking to new factory at same time? The new factory could "open" immediately but have 0 production/consumption until the old factory shut down, or it could slowly transfer over or... well, I think it's a case of everyone chipping in ideas. It all depends on citybuilding code being revamped though, and realistically I think that might not be until after we've had a stable release.
That's interesting - are you thinking of adding factory closing generally to Standard?
If we are having new factories built, then I think that there are strong reasons to integrate this code with the city building code: I am in favour generally of integrating industries, attractions and city buildings as closely as possible and discriminating as little as possible between them. On that basis, factories should build and upgrade according to the same criteria and using the same systems as city buildings. In situ upgrades would be preferred, with, where appropriate, neighbouring buildings being demolished to make way for the extended factory, in the same way as with expanding city buildings (where there is space). Where there is no space, it is cleaner, I think, simply to close the factory, or leave it in its non-upgraded state (and perhaps close it if and when a new factory of the same type is built elsewhere, once that new factory is served by transport, at least).
Absolutely thinking of linking it in with city building code! Well I think that factory opening/closing should be pakset dependent. For simpler paksets it makes sense to keep industries in the same place. When you start playing a 200 year game in pak128.Britain seeing industries from different eras just seems jarring.
Yes I'd see the old factory closing just wonder whether to give people a bit of warning so as to give them time to reconfigure transport networks. Also, even on larger maps this should not be a regular event. Pakset maintainers should ensure that you'd only get one factory a year or so moving (if that), moving only being done at a major factory upgrade. Minor upgrades and changes in graphics would be the same size, it would only be the larger ones where demolishing nearby buildings and so on would come into the equation.
Yes, that all seems to make sense. Have you looked into how factory closing is done in Experimental? That is designed to let it be customisable in the pakset. How regular that it is depends on the era: there will be more factory closures in the 1970s (with fewer replacements built) than in the 1860s, say.
I've not looked into things deeply yet. Don't worry, I will look at experimental (as I did for station capacities, infact for that I just copied and pasted code into standard more or less apart from changes asked for by prissi). As I said, there's other smaller things I want to get done, and double heights finished. Then I can look at city code and work from there. I'm not sure about closing factories with no replacement. Will have to think about that.
Having factories close with no replacement simulates both industrial decline and shifts from one sort of industry to another. The economy could get very distorted if things were otherwise in a longer game.
Modelling industrial decline would mean reducing factory outputs steadily after a certain year. Infact, that's how you could arrange for replacements - once a factory can no longer run effectively (with a bit of randomness) it is replaced by a more modern one, or just closed. There could be flexibility in dat files to deal with that also. The decline could simulate newer factories undercutting the older ones making production less profitable.
How would effectiveness be measured?
Bear in mind that Experimental already has code for closing down factories.
Cross that bridge when we come to it.
Hmm - surely we need to know what we mean by "effectiveness" to know whether a feature that closes factories down when that effectiveness crosses a threshold is worthwhile implementing in the first place?
how about modelling land value?
Industries tend to congregate to places with low land value, and therefore low land ownership taxes
say for example...
pax station coverage = +3
freight only station coverage = -2
next to high speed road = -1
next to rail = -1
next to industry = -1
next to factory industry = -2
next to attraction = +2
etc.
production factories should prefer zero, intermediate factories/industries should prefer negatives, while commerce and residences should prefer positives.
dat files should not need any additional values, as the values could be derived from a preset list.
Presumably, one could just reuse the code for station coverage to tally up land value.
What I mean is there are other things I'm concentrating on right now. One step at a time.
The important thing as far as industries are concerned is to be able to have their suppliers and customers well connected; what needs to be modelled for industry generation, in other words, is success rates for goods transport to neighbouring industries (except for primary industries, which locate on the basis of resources).
Latest graphics - early and modern versions of the Builder's Yard. Fairly simple...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img593/4148/2co2.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img202/1578/qnq3.jpg)
Lovely!
An art deco style car dealership for the 1920s...
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1034/15d0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/15d0.jpg/)
Very nice - I like that! One can imagine gentlemen in brimmed hats and floppy hair buying sports cars and being thrilled that they can go all of 45mph...
The Hood
the photo from the Shop looks very good out.
WOW!
Thanks The Hood!
Giuseppe
Is the lighting setup the same for that factory as other buildings? The contrast left/right doesn't seem as much as usual...
It certainly doesn't does it - I hadn't noticed. I'll double check but I can't think why it would be any different...
EDIT: further inspection reveals the cause - a bug in the render script - http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=12451.new#new
I've no idea how many recent graphics are affected by the bug. Please report any that look dodgy (only 2/8 rotations were affected) and we can fix.
Some more graphics - two earlier versions of the cement works:
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9455/d8qy.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/d8qy.jpg/)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9262/tqh4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/tqh4.jpg/)
Also some more graphics for china and clothes shops, but these are similar to existing types so no screenshots...
@wlindley - any progress on the old car factory? I've skipped doing this one because I know you'd half finished it.
Splendid!
Quote from: The Hood on September 01, 2013, 08:40:07 PM
@wlindley - any progress on the old car factory? I've skipped doing this one because I know you'd half finished it.
Funny you ask, I had just picked up work on the 1860s Pharmaceutical factory and finally added snow images, still having a few alignment issues, but I'll see if I can't get that and the 1910 car factory up to preview status at least. At some point, when the dat files can repeat images without embedding them twice, there will be a really good reason for the module approach, but it's important with the car factory as I will be making at least two ranges for 1910s (Model T) and 1920s (Austin Seven). I might even do an 1860s version with horse-drawn coaches (in the United States, the Studebaker company was one of a few who made the transition from wagons to automobiles; not sure if that would be prototypical for Britain).
Sounds perfect. I'd like to include those regardless of whether we ever get "modular" buildings implemented. I'll also avoid doing pharm factory graphics as well then.
Next up - early coal power station, loosely modelled on Deptford - the original high voltage power station.
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5831/d42m.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/d42m.jpg/)
Very nice!
And some early mines, coal and iron ore...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img20/4554/gm5k.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img850/4946/sbkf.jpg)
Those are delightful! They do capture the spirit of the early industrial revolution rather splendidly.
OK ... 1860 pharmaceutical factory.
(http://wlindley.com/simutrans/pharm.png)
Zip with dat, pngs, and Gimp xcf (http://wlindley.com/simutrans/pharm1860.zip).
Very nice! I can just imagine them churning out vast quantities of carbolic smoke balls (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8340276.stm)...
Great!
Hello
The new factory rocks me. :thumbsup:
Time for some more effort on factory graphics. Here's a modern coal mine - much larger than the existing older mines, on the basis that modern mines are larger to get economies of scale, and small ones look a bit daft next to long freight trains:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/839/cyz4.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nbcyz4j)
Very nice!
Some more:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/835/zunw.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/n7zunwj)
Above road L-R: furniture shops (victorian & deco), dairies (modern & early)
Below road L-R: furniture factories (early, modern)
These are lovely!
Excellent - is that meant to be ivy on the early furniture factory? Looks like you might want to increase the roughness of it is so (or turn down specularity) as seem quite bright at the moment...
Good spot - I'd accidentally removed a darker green texture when removing the winter snow texture.
New grain mills:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/543/6l1o.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/f36l1oj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/802/fqon.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/mafqonj)
A windmill! I have wanted a windmill in the pakset for a long time.
I forget now - is there a way of getting animated industry graphics? If so, the windmill would be the perfect candidate.
An animated windmill would indeed be lovely.
And yes, you can add animations to industry graphics. I did that for my Simutrans Fried Chicken outlet (though the pak.Britain one isn't animated).
Windmill very nice :)
I've added some animation so that the windmill rotates 22.5 degrees every 1/2 second. It's a little jerky so maybe more rotations would improve it, but that would require 8 sets of images not 4. Test it and see when I release it.
Also, a modern hardware factory and more variety of hardware shops:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/706/wbi6.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/jmwbi6j)
Delightful, although the image on the right is an under construction graphic...
Clicked screenshot too quickly.. Here it is with an iron ore mine and a newsagent (on a roll this morning!)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/198/wcoi.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/5iwcoij)
Older oil refinery and oil wells, alongside Junna's behemoth of a modern power station (just as it should be!) which I've finally imported into the game.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/21/z19s.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/0lz19sj)
PS, @wlindley:
Quote from: wlindley on March 10, 2011, 10:27:39 PM
Point taken, TheHood. I will eliminate any "buildings" from the fields. Here is a somewhat revised and completed progression of the Car Factory from 1910, 1922, 1948, 1962, 1970 using entirely the new graphics. This should help condense the size of BritIndustry.pak significantly once more of the factories are on this scheme.
(http://blog.wlindley.com/images/simscr06.jpg)
Since it now would not much increase pak size, I am tempted to add a second, rival, car factory... using some of the "other" models, or perhaps a factory for vans and lorries, maybe a motorcycle factory -- any thoughts on what that would do to industry balancing?
Have you still got these? Would love to include them if they are finished with snow and 4 rotations?
am I looking at that correctly? 6x6
massive!
Some lovely graphics - am I right in thinking that that old refinery is based on my gasworks model?
I do love the massive power station.
Quote from: ӔO on February 18, 2014, 11:09:52 PM
am I looking at that correctly? 6x6
massive!
Indeed
Quote from: jamespetts on February 18, 2014, 11:59:26 PM
Some lovely graphics - am I right in thinking that that old refinery is based on my gasworks model?
Yes it is, with some parts from my modern refinery model too. Credits will be given of course :)
EDIT: New graphics for paper/print chain: bookbinder (small old building - provides books for early bookshop), modern paper factory, victorian and modern printworks.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/22/pz8d.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/0mpz8dj)
And some new petrol station and pottery graphics
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/594/z7zw.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/giz7zwj)
Splendid!
@ Hood
What would be the date range for the new (Old) oil wells and refineries? I notice that in the current Pak128 Britain, the earliest railway tank cars become available is 1927. Would there be any changes made to that vehicle or a new one added to take advantage of such industries? What I've observed is that the date range for certain petrol stations and oil wells etc is 1909 (roughly) in the current version of the pak I have, or have I missed some sort of update or patch? I probably could locate the .dat/.png files for the tank cars and make a new tank car file...but I'm just curious about the new stuff, which looks amazing, by the way!
Thanks!
The idea I think is for petrol chains to be available from around 1910ish but in small quantities. We probably do need a few more vehicles available to transport fluids at that time though.
New graphics for printworks & slaughterhouse:
(http://s18.postimg.org/5f06x9sop/printworks_slaughterhouse.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Lovely!
might I suggest some liquid chemical storage containers outside the print works?
What for? You could always add them as station extensions of course?
Victorian steelworks:
(http://s29.postimg.org/pdo2wye1z/steelworks_victorian.png) (http://postimage.org/)
Very nice! Your rate of production is impressive :)
Mainly because I just re-use stuff. Helps for consistency too. Latest example is using Wlindley's mills images: an early textile mill:
(http://s10.postimg.org/5ixi25tkp/textile_mill_early.png) (http://postimage.org/)
Quote from: The Hood on February 23, 2014, 09:40:39 PM
What for? You could always add them as station extensions of course?
True, but the print works doesn't output chemicals, so I figured there ought to be a visual representation of what is stored locally.
Then again, the storage tanks could be hidden inside the buildings, so it's all up to how one looks at it.
Modern textile mill:
(http://s1.postimg.org/6awje78hr/modern_textile_mill.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Very nice! I do wonder whether there should be more prominent signage on some of the more modern industries, however...?
Modern supermarkets:
(http://s29.postimg.org/w5qfzklqf/supermarkets.png) (http://postimage.org/)
What sort of signage did you have in mind?
Wonderful!
Ahh, splendid, we have been needing those for ages! Signage like I see in this picture is a good start, I think. On the previous one, we could do with a free standing sign near the entrance and some signs above the entrances on the facing wall.
How those new Industrys looks very good out.
I hope that they get more of this.
A bit more progress:
(http://s30.postimg.org/y7g4w6e75/dept_store_victorian.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Ahh, the joys of emporia!
And a deco one (loosely modelled on Bentall's in Kingston)
(http://s27.postimg.org/qz4gjgz9f/deco_department_store.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
I remember Bentall's from my youth - delightful!
And a 1960s monstrosity version
(http://s27.postimg.org/8nnlbsnsz/dept_store_modern.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Very realistic!
And a contemporary glass version.
Nearly there with all the new industries now!
(http://s2.postimg.org/9lrz8ay3d/dept_store_glass.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Splendid!
I have noticed that W. Lindley's Victorian era pharmaceuticals factory is no longer available for download, which is rather a shame. Did anyone manage to save it?
Hello Jamespetts
I have be download the pharm1860.zip that you search!
Ahh, splendid. Can you upload it somewhere, perhaps files.simutrans-germany.org?
Hello Jamespetts
Try this link:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/simutranspakset/files/Data%20to%20make%20pakfiles-Daten%20zum%20herstellen%20von%20pakfiles/pharm1860.zip/download
Speak my on if then gives problem with the Download!
Thank you - I have it. That is very helpful.
A complete archive of all my "New Industry" files with the pharmaceuticals factory, is here (http://wlindley.com/simutrans/new-industry-work.zip). Also includes Gimp source images (xcf files, with layers). All released under the Simutrans standard license. Hope they are useful.
Splendid!
All of these are now in SVN in anticipation of the next release.