feedback from new guy

[phillyj]

Hi,
I started playing simutrans recently. I like it, especially the money management aspect. For example, I like looking for ways to reduce operation expenses and increase profits or making unprofitable ventures go "into the black".

Now, I read a few forums posts here from new users and also read some blog post reviews.

• I will say that this game has a gaming curve but the documentation is seriously lacking. For example, while it is obvious, a common reason that your train or truck "can't find route" is because your road or track is not linked. I made a track but I didn't notice that the track was not linked. The error message was vague and internet search provided very few clues. This put me off train building cause it just wouldn't work. I wonder how many people just gave up after an hour or so? Or what about the issue of multi-trailer trucks not being able to fit into the loading bay? The simple fix is to add a bus stop to extend the dock. I found one post that provided a solution. They're very silly problems but there is no help documentation, other than what things do.
• Next, while install is easy to do, I had no idea at first what these paks were. I downloaded 2 paks and am playing with comic96 now. And I'm not really sure what the differences are. It seems to me from reading the forums that paks are more than "skins". I chose comic pak because it looked the nicest. These things are not clearly explained on the pak website.

Overall, a fun game, once you figure out how to solve the errors. By the way, do you play single player mode with multiple AI competitors?

[Ters]

Feedback is always useful.

Regarding "can't find route", can you explain more closely why this message was unclear? Was it difficult to understand that this actually meant that there was no way to get from the vehicle's current position, or to find where the break was. The latter is something we are painfully aware of, but in general, it is very difficult getting a computer to figure out exactly where the break is. Despite what some may think, computers are very stupid.

As for road vehicles not fitting in loading bay, this flows over into the next question. Pak sets are what makes Simutrans into a game. They are way more than skins, and more akin to total conversion mods for other games. The differences between pak sets can almost amount to a different game, although the basic rules remain the same. Making documentation that covers them all is therefore somewhat not trivial. In pak64, there is never a problem that trailers don't fit into loading bays (although there is a bus requiring two bus stops). That you had to use a bus stop to extend the loading bay, rather than a loading bay extension, suggests that there is a flaw with that particular pak set. At least vehicles tell how many tiles they cover when you build them in the depot now. They haven't always done that if I remember correctly.

[vorlon]

The error messages can be a little vague indeed. Maybe they could state possible reasons that could be causing the problem, to partially act as a "tutorial" for players who wish to learn by doing rather than by reading? For example, not "can't find route" but rather "Can't find route. This might be caused by: lack of eletrification, weight limit, severed connection, etc."  And in tunnel or bridge errors it would be very helpful to show a preview image of how and where the structure in question is supposed to be built.

[Ters]

And in tunnel or bridge errors it would be very helpful to show a preview image of how and where the structure in question is supposed to be built.

The problem is that the game has no concept of tunnel or bridge errors. It just knows it could not find a route. Why is beyond its comprehension.

Showing an image of how its supposed to be would require upgrading all pak sets to contain example images, as some pak sets look very different from others. A completely differently looking example image might just confuse players more.

[transporter]

I think a better phrase to use would be "route not connected." Really, that's the only reason the "can't find route" error comes up. There might be another situation that error comes up and that's if the vehicle is too large, like ships and canals. But doesn't the game check the ways in the route? I don't remember there being a "vehicle too large" error or similar

[gauthier]

Having messages acting like tutorials would be a good idea provided such functionality can be disabled by experienced players. In my opinion, the best solution would be a complete tutorial game in every pakset. Although it just needs some efforts from each pak maintainer to build it, this would help many beginners.

[Leartin]

I thought about using the map that comes up at the start of simutrans as a tutorial map where you could see how everything is buildt, including markers for commentary. If not good enough as a tutorial, players could discover that map and study "how others do it" if they wish, no need to ask at a forum anymore.
While the reason I did not do it were time and the simple fact that most players won't start with pak192.comic, I still like the idea and I think a tutorial map could even be used in multiple paks with only slight changes, as the basic content is largely the same.

What comes to mind, though: When I first played the game, I never thought about clicking "new map" and closing the dialoge. So the map should be provided as a savefile as well.

[gauthier]

I thought about using the map that comes up at the start of simutrans as a tutorial map where you could see how everything is buildt

That would be nice. When I started playing Simutrans, there was a savegame "example" provided with the release I downloaded, I learnt on it. Anyway I needed much time understanding all the mechanics of the game, so I'm not sure it would be enough. In addition to that, the game was in early stage of its development, there was only trucks, trains and boats, only one type of signal for trains, etc ... so it was much easier than now.

[Spacethingy]

That would be nice. When I started playing Simutrans, there was a savegame "example" provided with the release I downloaded, I learnt on it. Anyway I needed much time understanding all the mechanics of the game, so I'm not sure it would be enough. In addition to that, the game was in early stage of its development, there was only trucks, trains and boats, only one type of signal for trains, etc ... so it was much easier than now.

Like an interactive version of OpenTTD's opening screen (and pak.128.britain) - that would be nice, especially for the community having "opening game choosing" competitions for each new release, as with the OTTD community.

[Ters]

I don't know what OTTD has done with the opening screen, but I can't say I learned anything from Transport Tycoon's opening screen. (Although it was impressive, and I can still clearly remember what it looked like and the music.) The manual was much more helpful. But I do still think that each pak set, at least the ones presented to new players, would need it's own manual. Either that, or we must enforce a standard set of toolbars and icons. Although even then, there is the problem that the toolbars change over time. Finding the right station for enabling passengers is very different between 1850 and 1950 even within pak64. There are small symbols to indicate passengers or goods, but I don't know if all pak sets use the same symbols.

[el_slapper]

The OP has a point on ways not connected. When I build 300/500 squares train line between 2 big towns, I often spend too much timefinding where the heck the rail(or electric power) is not connected.

Though I have no solution

[transporter]

One simple solution is to just go back over your ways again. Just take the long stretches and build over them. Doesn't cost anything except maybe the missing connections

[Ters]

As for broken rails, I feel like I've been more bothered by that in the last month than all my previous years of playing Simutrans. When dragging, it seems like the drag often doesn't start until the tile after I intended. These have been easy to find, as they have been between normal tracks. At least in pak64, this means that the break is marked by buffer stops. Those that are difficult to see, are inside platforms that have their own track graphics, between bridges, between tunnels and bridges, between tunnels and platforms with own track graphics, and between bridges and platforms with own track graphics. If a quick visual inspection doesn't show anything, I tend to focus rebuilding track across such things first.

Breaks in electrification is a different matter. Since electrification follows tracks, this can often be quickly fixed with two-click rebuilding end-to-end in each direction. Breaks in electrification should in theory be easier to see, but inside tunnels and across certain bridges that obscure them, it can be more difficult to spot.

Then there is no possible routes due to one of more signals facing the wrong directions, making the entire track one-directional in the opposite direction. I know no other solution for this than thorough visual inspection.

[sdog]

For example, while it is obvious, a common reason that your train or truck "can't find route" is because your road or track is not linked. I made a track but I didn't notice that the track was not linked. .

That is something that could be addressed at the level of park sets. The end of rail lines look very inconspicuous, even experienced players have to look carefully to see breaks in a line. Much more so beginners who don't know what to look for.

Suggestion: let end of track rails end furtherer away from the end, eg at two thirds or half of a tile.  Perhaps put some signal colours on it?

Self explanatory is always better than documented.

[ӔO]

I did make a signal demo save a while back.

It was quite easy to make, but it was only in english.