As the title says, the convoy total capacity should be shown in depot, in a line like max speed and length.
This is probably trivial to patch, so if someone wants to give it a go :)
Maybe next to tiles required? I support it.
Good idea fabio. Maybe below Resale value will look better.
And maybe change Resale value position with Max. Speed. This way, the number of vehicles and how much it cost is shown on the left, and its max speed and max capacity is shown on the right.
what about mixed trains? capable of carrying passengers, mail, coal, wood, and oil?
Quote from: vilvoh on August 08, 2011, 04:15:39 PM
Maybe next to tiles required? I support it.
Instead of displaying a number, having a scale/ruler below, with the station tiles being highlighted. Thtat's more work, but more direct feedback for players.
me supports.
Quote from: Dwachs on August 08, 2011, 04:21:30 PM
what about mixed trains? capable of carrying passengers, mail, coal, wood, and oil?
As long as this would be useful mostly for single-cargo trains, I'd say to use the total amount for single-cargo trains and omit the string for mixed trains (or put a fixed text like "mixed cargo convoi").
me supports this too
Quote from: Zeno on August 08, 2011, 07:22:31 PM
omit the string for mixed trains (or put a fixed text like "mixed cargo convoi").
But from 3 cargo-types. This is needed for passenger trains - because most players use combined trains - for transporting passengers and post together.
Quote from: Dwachs on August 08, 2011, 04:21:30 PM
what about mixed trains?
I would say: display capacity of pax, mail and goods (using the same icons as in the station dialog, also to save space).
You still mix the different goods capacity, but it would be a start.
E.g. Pax: 50, Mail: 0, Goods: 80 (mixed cargo)
Similarily, also displaying the total running costs would be useful (basically all the stuff and data later displayed in the convoy dialog).
Can't be used the same code used on vehicle dialog? It shows all the available goods it can carry.
And maybe limit it to 3 types, I think that everybody here rarely uses more than 3.
:support:
In particular, grouping resale value with max speed and tile length with total capacity...
...I also support a graphical tile length marker, so I don't have to buy until it exceeds my station length, then sell back the extra car.
...and the capacity should cover pax and mail at least, not considering them mixed cargo if mixed cargo is not calculated...
@An_dz: Good question. Wish I knew the answer.
Here's an idea: allow for a "current max station length", so that while buying/selecting vehicles for a train does not exceed that length.
TrainMith,
most players build stations before building depots and buying vehicles - but: sometimes you can have stations with many platforms of different length. Some ones of them may be shorter than train will be (for example 4 instead 8 ) - and if you built signals in wrong way, train may go to platform of wrong length.
And by the way, you see trains' length - and you may improve length of target station. So I don't see why this extension.
Quote from: VaclavMacurek on August 12, 2011, 08:03:06 AM
And by the way, you see trains' length.
Yes. But it is hard to predict when adding to train will will increase number of platforms for it. It is not one vehicle <=> one platform. I support TrainMith suggestion. Limiter will be useful.
I support TrainMith too. Sometimes I have to buy and sell it again because it is too long. Not every carriages have a length of 8.
But instead of limiter, we can simply display the length of each carriages below. Next to max speed, max capacity, intro date, or price.
Out of topic however.
How about, instead, a limiter that defaults to 4 tiles (or something set in the conf), and can be moved up or down like the wait times in the scheduler? That way, you could set a limit for the length of the train.
Although, I think the best solution is a graphical ruler so you can see ahead of time that you're approaching the length you want. A limiter, while nice, would still require selling back to add the mail car or whatever once you hit it.
Quote from: Vonjo on August 12, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
Sometimes I have to buy and sell it again because it is too long. Not every carriages have a length of 8.
But instead of limiter, we can simply display the length of each carriages below. Next to max speed, max capacity, intro date, or price.
Quote from: skreyola on August 12, 2011, 04:05:28 PM
How about, instead, a limiter that defaults to 4 tiles (or something set in the conf), and can be moved up or down like the wait times in the scheduler? That way, you could set a limit for the length of the train.
Although, I think the best solution is a graphical ruler so you can see ahead of time that you're approaching the length you want. A limiter, while nice, would still require selling back to add the mail car or whatever once you hit it.
The loss of funds for selling back the newly bought vehicle is exactly why I suggested a limiter, and the thought I had was to have it be an up/down control (widget) so that it could be adjusted in game at will. I would suggest a default that would be equivalent to the maximum tile length for the particular transportation type, so that anyone unaware of the feature can still blissfully continue buying vehicles.
I do like the idea of the graphical ruler and the length being stated, though.
[PS. If I knew how to code with the GUI, I'd be able to implement this, most likely.]
Yes, the up/down widget is what I meant. Sorry for not being clear.
I like your idea that the length is automagically the longest convoy size. But I think the widget should start at 0 (and remember where it was last set, or be changeable in the conf file), where 0 means no arbitrary limit.
skreyloa,
Your idea of having the length truncation start at 0 has merit, but I personally think it would be easier setting it to the maximum hard-coded (ie, it's a constant within the code and utterly unmodifiable without a recompilation), so that if I want it to have a limit I don't have to go through the smaller sizes first.
The reason I think it's better to have the UI start at 0 is that the maximum length for a train convoy, for instance, is much farther from, for example, 5 tiles than 5 tiles is from 0. Isn't it more than 20 tiles? As a player, I wouldn't want to have to click past that many high numbers to get down to my preference (3-6 tiles). I guess typing it in isn't so bad, but I'd prefer to use the spinner buttons, and coming up from 0 would be easier, I think.
That's my opinion, and I won't be upset if you disagree. I hope I have made my position understandable.
How about using the vehicle info area at the bottom of the dialog to display the convoi info too? i.e. When the mouse is over a vehicle, display the vehicle info, when not, display the convoi info instead of blank.
Graphical ruler for convoi length is easy to add, rather hard to make behave sensibly though...
Actually i don't like it too much.
I would like to see the stats of the convoy AND those of the car I can choose to add to it or not.
I would rather add these info under Resale Value
skreyola: Not upset at all, even though your opinion and mine are slightly conflicting. At least we are discussing it sensibly, and hopefully come to an agreeable solution. The solution might even be a configuration option, at the worse.
TurfIt: I am agreeing with fabio. This new idea about the convoi should stay with the convoi information area above the individual vehicle section. If the length of the individual vehicle is also to be displayed, let it be just to the right of vehicle weight (or someplace similar).
I'm not sure the graphical ruler is going to help much: how well are you (ie. anyone) at picking out individual pixels on your monitor, and hoping that the algorithm to display the size hasn't had a rounding error (either by rounding down or up)? This is why I was suggesting a coding proposal of a configurable limit which prevents vehicle purchase.
TurfIt: Thank you for your work on this. What I was thinking of for the ruler was sort of a grey stripe showing the current default station length (whether it's the longest existing station, or a conf value, or a value chosen in the dialog). The green and yellow seems to me a bit too close to the speed and waiting bars, leading to some cognitive dissonance in using it for length. Perhaps just different colors? A brown would show up nicely against the depot background. Maybe a black for the used length capacity?
TrainMith: I agree. I think a conf option is the best way to go. :)
Perhaps the color of the cars in the buy window should change color (to orange or amber) when their length would exceed the station limit, the way they turn yellow or red (can't remember at the moment) when they can't be bought, to signal to the player that they've reached the limit of their stations? A limit preventing purchase is good, but what's really needed here is feedback that you're approaching the limit, that your next car will make the train too long, or else how is it better than "Station tiles: 6" at preventing the need to sell back an extra car?
Quote from: fabio on August 18, 2011, 08:57:04 AM
I would rather add these info under Resale Value
Space under resale value is occupied by max speed text; Some of the translations are rather lengthy...
Quote from: TrainMith on August 19, 2011, 12:13:06 AM
TurfIt: I am agreeing with fabio. This new idea about the convoi should stay with the convoi information area above the individual vehicle section.
I agree too. Seen the otherwise 'empty' space down there and thought it might work. The convoi info area is full, but I think I can squeeze out a few pixels. Would make the spacing consistent with the other dialogs to boot.
Quote from: TrainMith on August 19, 2011, 12:13:06 AM
I'm not sure the graphical ruler is going to help much: how well are you (ie. anyone) at picking out individual pixels on your monitor, and hoping that the algorithm to display the size hasn't had a rounding error (either by rounding down or up)? This is why I was suggesting a coding proposal of a configurable limit which prevents vehicle purchase.
Actually the ruler is working better than I thought it would. Might be one of those things that'll have to be tried first.
Quote from: skreyola on August 19, 2011, 04:09:35 AM
The green and yellow seems to me a bit too close to the speed and waiting bars, leading to some cognitive dissonance in using it for length. Perhaps just different colors? A brown would show up nicely against the depot background. Maybe a black for the used length capacity?
Colours are configurable...
Quote from: skreyola on August 19, 2011, 04:09:35 AM
TrainMith: I agree. I think a conf option is the best way to go. :)
I'm not fond of the limit approach. If the ruler doesn't pass muster maybe, but I'm not seeing a simple implementation.
Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2011, 08:07:48 PM
The loss of funds for selling back the newly bought vehicle is exactly why I suggested a limiter,
What loss?
I like the last screenshot! Thank you for your work!
I'm not sure about the length bar. I would rather add a warning in the individual cal section (bottom). It can be blank or "adding this vehicle will require one additional tile for the stations" or a better wording.
very very nice
I think there is a nuance here that is being misunderstood.
Quote from: skreyola on August 19, 2011, 04:09:35 AM
A limit preventing purchase is good, but what's really needed here is feedback that you're approaching the limit, that your next car will make the train too long, or else how is it better than "Station tiles: 6" at preventing the need to sell back an extra car?
What good is the feedback of a graphical ruler when you are close to the limit, know that you are close to the limit, and purchase a vehicle that looked like it should have fit, but doesn't? There are two methods by which this situation can occur: firstly, seeing the graphically shown length and mistakenly assuming that it would fit, and secondly, the graphical representation of the length being miscalculated to be slightly smaller than what it should be (ie, rounding error).
In either case, the vehicle is purchased. I would prefer that the purchase hadn't happened. Similarly, if combining a consist of owned vehicles, I wouldn't want to release it from the depot with a too long length, only to have to send it back to be shortened.
Quote from: TurfIt on August 19, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
What loss?
I thought that, immediately after purchasing a vehicle, its monetary value depreciates? I'll check again later tonight, looking at the "resale value" and the purchase price.
This text layout will fail with many languages using longer words (like german, finnish, hunagrian, etc.) Also the depot frame is already very large in its current state and prevents simutrans from working properly on some smartphones.
Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...
@Trainmith
setting a max convoi length can be useful, but it is also a bit dangerous for beginners, firstly it clutters the gui a bit more, and it sets a limit people might overlook and consider hard at first. There might be cases you bought a vehicle too much, but there are easy ways to fix it. The ruler is a good compromise that can be quite self explanatory.
I however would suggest some minor changes to make it more obvious. It would already work if it was only a non interactive bar with ticks at the length of station tiles. Alternatively having gray sections of the length of a station tile that get partially or fully highlighted when they are filled up by a convoy. The second coloured bar would be superfluous if this was done.
I've attached an edited version of TurfIt's screenshot to show what i meant. For demonstration purpose it contains both types of rulers i suggest, while only one would be required.
Quote from: TrainMith on August 19, 2011, 08:01:20 PM
I thought that, immediately after purchasing a vehicle, its monetary value depreciates? I'll check again later tonight, looking at the "resale value" and the purchase price.
AFAIK not as long as it hasn't left the depot. Just look at the screenshot and compare cost and resale value.
there's quite a lot of text in a small window, wouldn't it be sensible to change the layout of the whole dialogue, to have more room for text, preferably as a table, with more descriptive names.
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 08:24:27 PM
@Trainmith
setting a max convoi length can be useful, but it is also a bit dangerous for beginners, firstly it clutters the gui a bit more, and it sets a limit people might overlook and consider hard at first. There might be cases you bought a vehicle too much, but there are easy ways to fix it. The ruler is a good compromise that can be quite self explanatory.
Quote from: prissi on August 19, 2011, 08:05:04 PM
Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...
Actually my idea of the implementation would already have solved most of this: Using an up/down spin count widget (possibly with a very small 2 digit numerical text entry) and, as I stated earlier, have it set to the maximum that is already hard-coded into the source file. Hence, it couldn't possibly become larger except by a recompilation of the source, and unless you lower its value in-game then you wouldn't even know it was there. As to a beginner noticing it, isn't that what the tooltips are for?
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 08:24:27 PM
I've attached an edited version of TurfIt's screenshot to show what i meant. For demonstration purpose it contains both types of rulers i suggest, while only one would be required.
AFAIK not as long as it hasn't left the depot. Just look at the screenshot and compare cost and resale value.
Is this pakset dependent? I'm normally playing pak128. I haven't made it home yet to check.
sdog:
I do like the look of the ruler under the coloured bar.
TurfIt:
I don't think that moving the vehicle information from the bottom is good. The top portion seems be more for consist information and the bottom for vehicle, which especially makes sense with the icons for already-bought and available-for-purchase vehicles at the bottom.
I'll see what I can do about coding a patch for this, if I can ever get the gui widgets and such figured out. Any quick suggestions of files and functions to look for would be appreciated.
i would move the assigned line over the train, just below the drop box to select the line. The assign line button could be next to it.
Colour could also be used to highlight information, perhaps using 70% grey for the description of an entry (e.g. "Vehicle:", "Cost:" etc)
having most information in a neat table in another window, only the most important information in the buy box, prefering numbers and icons to text.
Another idea:
First have the select line drop box and an assign line button next to it.
As soon as a line is selected and assigned, the box dissapears and is replaced by the selected line in a non changeable box. The "assign line" button is replaced by a "change line". Pressing this button again, will get back to the initial state. This has two advantages, it is very clear when a line is assigned (i've seen at one new player that he selected the line, did not assign but assumed it was correct since he saw the line at the top.) and it takes less room.
It would be even possible to go one step further and seperate changing the consist and the line. Having the select line drop box at the bottom, and a button "finish consist and asign line" next to it. Creating a new line is done by the default selection in the combo box, "create new line"
Pressing it would bring one to a window with the schedule dialogue open, that can be switched for the line or the convoy. The list of vehicles dissapears. Top Speed and Capacity are the only information shown of a convoy.
The window also has a "copy convoy" button and a "start" button. (perhaps also "copy <n> and start" button, where n can be set with control click?)
The convoi selection could be replaced by two arrows right and left, that is true.
But the line combobox needs to stay, if you want to modify the line without opening the line window again. Same for schedule, since there is no need (at least with current system) to force line creation for single convois. Still one could use the currently selected line automatically for the convoi.
line-combox
<start> <change schedule> <copy> <sell>
Sell/dissamble can be in principle achieved in other was. Although I use <sell> very frequently and never disassemble. But maybe clicking on the convoi does sell when the below button is on sell?
But with your suggestion two rows of button can be saved, which is a goo thing. But why not using the convoi detail window for all the informations you want to show here instead of cluttering the dialoge again?
My reasoning was that convoy creation is already a two step process, both steps are also not directly related. This could be reflected in the structure of the window.
Lines that could go from the convoy consist window are "Assigned line", all buttons except "Sell" and "Assign line" (dissasemble is only sometimes useful in experimental, and can be achieved by clicking on every vehicle. It should go!) So it's just one line, but six buttons, simplifying the dialogue.
The real benefit comes in the second step of the process, the line window, in the space saved from the list of vehicles the list of stops in the line can be shown, the first stop it should call could be selected and other necessary line operations included. The "start" button also should only appear here, you can not start a convoy without assigning a schedule anyway. A "back button" something like change consist and line is good enough if one still desires changes in the consist. (see attached image)
A "sell" button should remain in this window. By reducing the overload of this dialogue, there is now room for the additional 'advanced' button "copy & start <n>" reducing the workload for experienced players. (This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free. it's a pain in the **** to start more than a couple of trains at the moment, particulary in network games with lag and no fast forward!)
Creating convoys without a line, just a schedule is, i think mostly a relic from the past, with some very specialised applications. However it can be a trap for new players. Let's have it as an exception, available to get, but you have to look for it. I think an entry in the combo box: "create vehicle without line" would be sufficient. May i ask, why is it still necessary to have vehicles without lines?
Oh, btw, the buy/append/sell is extremely awkward to use! I very rarely do so, mostly i just click the parts of a consist away and assemble again. This i think really needs some thought, or perhaps can be dropped altogether if it's not used frequently by others.
I hope i'm not going to far, but i think the recent discussion showed that this dialogue is at the edge of what it could take.
ps: with drop-down i meant the combo-box
EDIT: added an edited screenshot to display what i meant
EDIT2: fixed ommission in the appended image, added image for second screen of dialogue
I like sdog's screenshots and ideas, but I think the first view should keep the disassemble and possibly the new line buttons. Sometimes, you want to rearrange your convoy, and clicking every car can be tedious, especially if you play using really long trains. I certainly want to keep the option of no line, because I don't always want to put a train on a line, especially if its job is only temporary.
Definitely in favor of a start queue for train depots.
Thank you all for your hard work, coders.
Quote from: prissi on August 19, 2011, 08:05:04 PM
This text layout will fail with many languages using longer words (like german, finnish, hunagrian, etc.) Also the depot frame is already very large in its current state and prevents simutrans from working properly on some smartphones.
Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...
The layout I added up top is exactly the same as what's currently used down below in the vehicle info section. Except I squeezed 'Gear:' in, but that could go. (would be nice to completely rip the whole gear concept out of the game but that's a whole other topic. ;)) I see the vehicles, station tiles line does overflow in a couple languages, shorter words would be nice! Or, is the vehicle count actually useful?
Adjusting the element spacing in the dialog to be consistent with the other game dialogs saves 14 pixels. So adding 2 more text lines to the convoi info section results in 8 bigger... Using some of sdogs ideas can save 39 more.
Calling up the convoi detail could work. Would be better if it actually contained some useful convoi details though. But, I think the spirit of this request is to get useful information such as convoi capacity directly in the dialog. Now what all counts as useful, and what'll fit?
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 08:24:27 PM
It would already work if it was only a non interactive bar with ticks at the length of station tiles. Alternatively having gray sections of the length of a station tile that get partially or fully highlighted when they are filled up by a convoy.
Effectively this would be that same as I've done, just a different graphic. I used the existing speedbar widget as it was readily available. Note fixed ticks won't work; The vehicles comprising the convoi are displayed in a fixed width grid with 24 spaces across the screen. The length of an individual vehicle doesn't change the horizontal placement in the display.
I don't follow your alternative suggestion. Mock up?
Quote from: TrainMith on August 19, 2011, 10:05:23 PM
I don't think that moving the vehicle information from the bottom is good. The top portion seems be more for consist information and the bottom for vehicle, which especially makes sense with the icons for already-bought and available-for-purchase vehicles at the bottom.
??? The vehicle info is still at the bottom. Doesn't show in my screen shot as I didn't have a vehicle highlighted. My first attempt at this was putting the convoi info at the bottom where there's room, but wasn't liked (by me either).
Quote from: TrainMith on August 19, 2011, 10:05:23 PM
I'll see what I can do about coding a patch for this, if I can ever get the gui widgets and such figured out. Any quick suggestions of files and functions to look for would be appreciated.
Main file is gui/depot_frame.cc. Warning, it's probably the most convoluted dialog frame in the whole program.
For your "up/down spin count widget" is suggest gui/components/gui_numberinput.cc is what your looking for.
To actually implement a purchase limit, you'll be into many more.
Quote from: prissi on August 19, 2011, 10:50:49 PM
Still one could use the currently selected line automatically for the convoi.
line-combox
<start> <change schedule> <copy> <sell>
Sell/dissamble can be in principle achieved in other was. Although I use <sell> very frequently and never disassemble. But maybe clicking on the convoi does sell when the below button is on sell?
I like this single button row layout. Never use disassemble either, just as easy to click on the convoi vehicles to do so.
New line, assign line, can be done directly by the line selector combo box. If nor line selected then convoi has an individual schedule. Change schedule would allow for editing it, or if a line is selected would do the current update line function.
Quote from: prissi on August 19, 2011, 10:50:49 PM
But why not using the convoi detail window for all the informations you want to show here instead of cluttering the dialoge again?
Why be forced to open a second dialog just to get the basic info for the convoi you're trying to assemble?
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 11:41:36 PM
(This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free.
This has been implemented for a while...
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 11:41:36 PM
May i ask, why is it still necessary to have vehicles without lines?
I find it useful so as to not clutter up the list of lines with a whole bunch of single convoi lines.
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 11:41:36 PM
Oh, btw, the buy/append/sell is extremely awkward to use! I very rarely do so, mostly i just click the parts of a consist away and assemble again. This i think really needs some thought, or perhaps can be dropped altogether if it's not used frequently by others.
Assuming you mean the Append/Put in Front/Sell vehicle action button, then I agree. Potential to gain another 14 pixels... but only if certain languages trim their words a tad...
Quote from: sdog on August 19, 2011, 11:41:36 PM
I hope i'm not going to far, but i think the recent discussion showed that this dialogue is at the edge of what it could take.
I don't particularly care for the adding of a second dialog, but the existing one is rather full...
@skreyola
the idea was to have a dropdown in the combo box that looks like this:
<create new line>
<set schedule without line>
(1) Line
(2) Line
.
.
.
In normal simutrans, i usualy just sell the whole convoy, instead of dissasembling it. It is a different matter in simutrans experimental, where i want to keep an old engine sometimes. But then i usually just click the engine away and sell the rest. In the economic model of simutrans it doesn't matter if you sell it or dissasemble it. You shift money just from 'Assets' to 'Account Balance', the difference in depreciation is negligible anyway.
@TurfIt
Quote
Effectively this would be that same as I've done, just a different graphic. I used the existing speedbar widget as it was readily available. Note fixed ticks won't work; The vehicles comprising the convoi are displayed in a fixed width grid with 24 spaces across the screen. The length of an individual vehicle doesn't change the horizontal placement in the display.
Ah, i overlooked that vehicles don't have to be of half a tile length.
Quote"(This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free."
This has been implemented for a while...
But only for the first convoy, the next will still have to wait until the depot is free. It would be desirable to queue up all immediately after pressing start.
Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.
Quote from: sdog on August 20, 2011, 04:03:00 AM
the idea was to have a dropdown in the combo box that looks like this:
<create new line>
<set schedule without line>
(1) Line
(2) Line
.
That's what I got from your/prissis suggestion.
Quote from: sdog on August 20, 2011, 04:03:00 AM
But only for the first convoy, the next will still have to wait until the depot is free. It would be desirable to queue up all immediately after pressing start.
Just hit start for every convoi you want to start. They'll queue up and leave as the track blocks become available. This might be only in the Nightlies though...
Quote from: sdog on August 20, 2011, 04:03:00 AM
Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.
No, but as an item in the line selector I think works instead of a separate button taking up space.
Oh, just realized i've been playing stable the first time in years, since it's running on timothy's server. ;-) That stacking up of start orders is a very good feature -- thanks for coding!
Didn't realize the combo box included the create new line already. I think the button to activate the selection in the combo box should be quite close to the selection however.
Thanks for coding the multiple train starting goes to prissi.
Combo box doesn't already include new line. That could be added if this rearrangement goes ahead. I was thinking to activate it if selected in the list, no separate button
I'm really not sure that a big layout change is needed to enable people to predict whether buying the next vehicle will make the train too long for the station, and the current layout is, I think, somewhat clearer than the above. There is a much, much easier way of doing this: when one mouses over a vehicle, display in brackets after "station tiles" the number of station tiles that the train would occupy if that vehicle were added to the convoy.
In TurfIt's layout I like. As for the size: Maybe one could make the convoi info optional (by a setting in simuconf.tab). That way nearly everyone by smartphone owner could use full dialogue.
I am still wondering, if one should not use the text for xxx oassengers yy barrels of oil as the category texts are available. But if everyone is happy with icons, I can live with them too.
Hmm - the problem with TurfIt's layout is that it omits "New Line"; I don't know about other people, but my workflow when creating new lines is to create a convoy in the depot, then create the line for it using the "New Line" button in the depot window. It would be fiddly to have to do that from the line management window.
OK, the discussion here was growing and I was just reading, but now I want to give my contribution. My idea for the depot window:
The station tiles can grow assuming the Length parameter. That's the purpose of length value. Am I right?
Edit: Explanation:
As you can see on my idea the station tiles are shown and the option of the highest station on the schedule can be added.
And the idea of the limiter can also be used, but not with a box where you add the numbers, but clicking on the station bar.
The other good point on my option is that it leave a whole line for the convoy capacity, meaning it can show the products it can carry just like prissi wants, and I want. With text.
@james: in TurfIt's suggestion the create new line would be the first option in the drop down menu (combo box, because it has left right buttons) containing the lines. Selecting it would automatically open a new line dialogue, as does pressing the <new line> button right now.
Quote from: An_dz on August 21, 2011, 12:58:19 AM
The station tiles can grow assuming the Length parameter. That's the purpose of length value. Am I right?
The idea was that the proposed convoi length limit can increase or decrease so that adding vehicles to a convoi will not exceed a certain number of tiles, which may or may not be the same as the length of a station on its schedule. This length limit would be adjustable in-game, at any time, and at the user's desire. It is also different from the hard-coded limit which is currently found in the game, but may be set to that same value.
An_dz, is this a better explanation?
In truth no TrainMith, my question was if the length value worked the way I asked. Anyway I understood what you said.
And I must say that I don't like this idea. For this reason:
1. If the number is coded, the player, in this case me, will need to keep changing the number every time a new convoy is needed, and this will make the game so boring. BUT...
As you can see on my idea the station tiles are shown and the option of the highest station on the schedule can be added.
And the idea of the limiter can also be used, but not with a box where you add the numbers, but clicking on the station bar.
The other good point on my option is that it leave a whole line for the convoy capacity, meaning it can show the products it can carry just like prissi wants, and I want. With text.
Quote from: sdog on August 21, 2011, 02:56:54 AM
@james: in TurfIt's suggestion the create new line would be the first option in the drop down menu (combo box, because it has left right buttons) containing the lines. Selecting it would automatically open a new line dialogue, as does pressing the <new line> button right now.
Hmm - but won't that involve two clicks for what currently takes one click?
Not assigning a line, just a single schedule is the exception, isn't it? Assigning a line is the most common use scenario.
Have an entry in the combo box <set schedule, no line> selecting it will automatically open the change schedule dialogue, the entry will persist.
The start button however could become "Assign line & Start" assigning the line in the combo box (and it stays persistent as it is now). The exception is when <set schedule, no line> is selected in the box, then the button changes to "Start".
This would streamline the most common use scenario without making the less typical schedule one too awkward to use.
These improvements to the depot dialogue look very good -- thank you TurfIt.
I don't know if some of these things are feasible, but let me put in my two cents.
I like only having one bar of buttons -- start, schedule, copy, and sell. What if when you pressed schedule, the current schedule dialogue opens, but it automatically creates a new line with the schedule. Then, in place of the current 'promote to line' button, there is an option for 'no line' which would revert to standard, line-free scheduling. If you selected a line in the drop down box, then pressed 'schedule,' that could be treated like 'update line.' I think this would preserve almost all functionality with no extra clicks, and at the same time, make naming new lines much easier upon creation (so you can see the schedule while naming).
You could save space on the bottom by changing [] Show all and [] Show obsolete to simply Show: [] Obsolete [] All. That might help save space there for the Vehicle arrangement button, which could be shortened (in English at least) to simply back, front, sell. I don't use put in front, but sell is useful, particularly with netgame lag.
I tend to agree with jamespetts that the ruler is not as useful for me, but I personally use consists of many different sizes for different goods in different eras. I am fairly sure there is no penalty for selling back vehicles as long as the month does not change. I think any limiter could really confuse people.
I liked the idea to remove the line buttons, but don't automatically create a line clicking on schedule, but maybe add a way to create a line on schedule dialog. Also can add a button to open the line management dialog.
And the change of the Show buttons is not so good, cause you need to remember there are more than just one language on Simutrans. In Portuguese there's not much problem on this part cause the translation won't be so big, but there are languages that are not the same. Václav was talking about Czech was difficult to translate for the small spaces. The good point is that prissi and Dwachs speak German and German have probably the longest words.
The ruler on my idea is by clicking on the ruler where you want the max convoy size and it fills it with a color and then as you buy vehicles it fills with another color.
Quote from: sdog on August 20, 2011, 04:03:00 AM
In normal simutrans, i usualy just sell the whole convoy, instead of dissasembling it. It is a
You're not the only player. I often disassemble, and I play standard. The disassemble button should probably be available... unless a poll is taken and people overwhelmingly don't use it.
Quote from: sdog on August 20, 2011, 04:03:00 AM
Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.
It is for me, anyway. I don't think I've ever created a line from the line management window.
Quote from: prissi on August 20, 2011, 10:56:43 PM
I am still wondering, if one should not use the text for xxx oassengers yy barrels of oil as the category texts are available. But if everyone is happy with icons, I can live with them too.
I like the icons. They're space efficient, and they tell me what I need to know for most trains. It's usually not feasible to have mixed cargo trains for goods.
I think what's actually needed here is not a limiter (that prevents buying the next car) but a warning (that lets you know that buying a particular car will reach the desired station length), and I think it should change the color of the bars under the cars in the option pane, the way (if you have show all checked) they change from green to red to green as the constraints are met or not. Perhaps an amber or orange (yellow is already taken for the half-bar meaning of two-part car). Pre-purchase feedback is the only thing that will decrease the number of clicks the user has to make to buy enough pax cars to fill the station with enough space left to add a single mail car (which is how I usually build my city trains). I guess I could put the mail car first, but I just like it on the end (and with one of the bullet-type trains, you can't put a mail car in the middle).
An_dz's ruler gave me an idea: What if, instead of marking the whole train, the ruler marks the portion of the last tile the train requires is filled? So, for a train that requires five map tiles, it would show how many (out of the station tile length) length units are used in the last tile. Then, you could see that on the fifth tile, the train is using up 8 of the 16 length units, so you'd know you could add that length=8 car and keep it in five tiles, but not that length=10 observation car. Or if your train is falling to 4tiles, 9 units, you would know you can't add a length=8 car but would have room for a length=6 car. If this is done, I think the ruler should show binary marks like English-measure rulers (1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16).
Quote from: skreyola on August 23, 2011, 05:32:07 PM
I don't think I've ever created a line from the line management window.
Myself, I use whatever is the least number of inputs: If I have the depot dialog open, I use that; if not, I use the the line management dialog.
Quote from: skreyola on August 23, 2011, 05:32:07 PM
I think what's actually needed here is not a limiter (that prevents buying the next car) but a warning (that lets you know that buying a particular car will reach the desired station length), and I think it should change the color of the bars under the cars in the option pane, the way (if you have show all checked) they change from green to red to green as the constraints are met or not. Perhaps an amber or orange (yellow is already taken for the half-bar meaning of two-part car). Pre-purchase feedback is the only thing that will decrease the number of clicks the user has to make to buy enough pax cars to fill the station with enough space left to add a single mail car (which is how I usually build my city trains).
Another good idea, but I would prefer the prevention of purchasing. Especially when purchasing a fair amount of a vehicle, I use the left mouse button rather rapidly and, even though I have counted out the exact number mentally, it occasionally will either over or under record how many clicks. I've noticed this with the SDL library with other applications, too.
Quote from: skreyola on August 23, 2011, 05:32:07 PM
An_dz's ruler gave me an idea: What if, instead of marking the whole train, the ruler marks the portion of the last tile the train requires is filled? So, for a train that requires five map tiles, it would show how many (out of the station tile length) length units are used in the last tile. Then, you could see that on the fifth tile, the train is using up 8 of the 16 length units, so you'd know you could add that length=8 car and keep it in five tiles, but not that length=10 observation car. Or if your train is falling to 4tiles, 9 units, you would know you can't add a length=8 car but would have room for a length=6 car. If this is done, I think the ruler should show binary marks like English-measure rulers (1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16).
I actually like the ruler as it originally was shown. Your idea of the vehicle option bar changing color would help moreso than the remaining length units shown. I think everyone is still misunderstanding there is a translation when going from the actual vehicle length to the graphical representation, so even if you can eyeball correctly what looks to fit, will in fact not fit. Unless of course more text is added to the dialog, explicitly stating the length, such as in your (quoted) example.
The ruler is not so useful to me, I just added it cause people were asking, what I really want to show is give an idea for the convoy infos. Specially the big space to show the capacity.
About a text to explain the ruler, it can be a tooltip, and when you point over the end of the filled part it can show how much tiles/units are being used.
I try to make all my vehicle have a line, cause I think it's cool use the line management. It's easier to see infos about the line, and it's easier to add more vehicles to existing lines, modify them is also cool for big cities.
Quote from: TrainMith on August 23, 2011, 07:00:05 PM
I actually like the ruler as it originally was shown. Your idea of the vehicle option bar changing color would help moreso than the remaining length units shown. I think everyone is still misunderstanding there is a translation when going from the actual vehicle length to the graphical representation, so even if you can eyeball correctly what looks to fit, will in fact not fit. Unless of course more text is added to the dialog, explicitly stating the length, such as in your (quoted) example.
I'm being unclear. Forgive me.
The ruler I now think would be best is not a 1:1 graphical representation for people to eyeball but a full-width expansion of the portion of a station tile the end of the train consumes. This would help players internalize the relative lengths of particular cars and help us prevent overbuying by making it more apparent when the end of the tile is approaching.
And perhaps when the player hovers over a car to add, it could show on whatever ruler is adopted how long the train will be if the car is added (in a different color so the player can see the impact).
@An_dz: Perhaps the information I want can be easily tucked away in a tooltip that shows if you hover over the "(Station tiles: 9)" text: "This convoy uses 8 and 5/16 station tiles." or something like that... but I still think a graphical ruler would be useful for this.
I fuel again this discussion, quoting here some thoughts I had in another thread.
Quote from: fabio on January 29, 2012, 12:45:56 AM
Just considering things aloud, not actually requesting any of them, pushed by Hajo's thoughts.
In depot you create a convoy. Then you can select a line from a drop down box. In the list there could:
- <Individual schedule>
- <New line>
- Line 1
- etc...
- <Reset>
If you select <Individual schedule> the schedule dialog will appear. If the convoy has already an individual schedule or a line assigned, the new schedule will be created letting you edit the existing one.
If you select <New line> the schedule dialog will appear again, but this time creating a new line, which will be automatically assigned when you close the dialog.
If you select a line that line will be automatically assigned.
If you select <Reset>, all line or schedule info will be forgotten.
This way buttons could be greatly simplified:
- drop down box for line and schedule management
- a small arrow near it: it will open line management window selecting the line in the box. If the convoy has an <Individual schedule> set, it will open the schedule dialog instead.
- copy convoy
- start
- start from nearest station: a new tool which will calculate which station in the schedule is shorter to reach from depot location.
Also schedule button in vehicle dialog would be redundant: enough to have the same drop down box, if you select
<Individual schedule> the schedule dialog will appear. The same small arrow could redirect you to line management window selecting the appropriate line.
Editing or deleting a line can be done only from line management window.
A nice extension to this window would be a new button "withdraw obsolete".
Quote from: TurfIt on January 29, 2012, 01:53:33 AM
Sounds like where we were headed with Show convoy capacity in depot (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7767.0). Still on my TODO list reworking the depot dialog. Can't believe that was August that conversation! Someday...
Quote from: An_dz on August 21, 2011, 10:41:26 PM
The good point is that prissi and Dwachs speak German and German have probably the longest words.
Finnish has the longest words of European languages.
Poor Finnish... They'll have trouble translating Simutrans.
BLTN... posted up for comments on form/function.
All the previous functions retained (except 'delete line'), new info added, dialog size maintained - at least until the new margins were added.
? ? ? !
Not sure what happened there. Edited my last to make sense.
<crickets>
Maybe a pretty picture:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img840/7233/simscr02.png)
And a compiled version for testing:
EDIT: removed.
Turfit
Your Patch looks good out.
I like it.
Finally this is revived! I can't wait to see it committed, it's a great improvement!
Looks indeed nice.
Pretty nice. I can't wait TurfIt turfing it in the code. :D
I like it!
I'm about to commit this. Several translations need changing which I can't do.
Is it preferred to have the printf format specifiers in the translation string or not? There's a couple places I can change this.
New: (strings added to code)
"<no schedule set>"
"<individual schedule>"
"<create new line>"
"--------------------------------"
"Can't buy obsolete vehicles!"
"Cost: %6d$ (%.2f$/km)\n"
"Power: %4d kW\n"
"Weight:" - would require 4 different translation entries if format specifiers included
"Capacity:" - see below
Deprecated: (strings no longer in code)
"Move the selected vehicle(s) back to the depot"
"Lines are used to manage groups of vehicles"
"Add the selected vehicle(s) to the selected line"
"Aufloesen"
"%s\nCost: %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nPower: %dkW\nTop speed: %dkm/h\nWeight: %dt\n"
"%s\nCost: %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nCapacity: %d%s %s\nWeight: %dt\nTop speed: %dkm/h\n"
Translation change required: (code has old text as requested, should be translated as follows:)
"Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line" - tooltip
"Capacity: %d%s %s\n" to "Capacity: %3d%s %s\n" - could be combined with new Capacity: above if format string not translated.
Show button text change if desired: (original text in code changed to new text)
"Show obsolete" to "obsolete"
"Show all" split into "Show:" and "all"
Old but missing: (in code pre-patch but not in translator)
"1 convoi"
"keine Fahrzeuge" - should never happen - would be a logic error in the code if this is ever displayed.
EDIT: updated list based on discussion below.
There are some errors. Assemble a convoi without show all, then sell them. The window in empty, no convois can be selected without closing the window. It does not happen always though. Furthermore, selecting a line needs two clicks, same as for deselecting. The schedule is correctly set though, just the string does not update correctly.
About the tranlations:
I think it would be good to have the format specifiers with the tranlations.
Do you mean to change the translations or the source strings. If you mean the latter, please do not change them in simutrans, since these are essentiall identical. Change them in Simutranslator instead. The tooltip ("Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line") change be changes, since it is no essential to a dialoge.
Also the space for Convoi 1 of 1 is way too short for almost all languages in simutranslator. Add another 80 pixels or so, please.
The splitting of "Show all" and "Show obsolete" is possible in english, but does not go neccessarily well in other languages. Also it leads to a button "obsolete" with is very far away from the Show. Using the Simutrans standard button, the text will be to the right. Also there are now translations for Show all und Show obsolete
"Capacity: %d%s %s\n" again, change this on translator
"Constructed by %s" change on translator. Or let me add there the break, it is really simple for all languages. Otherwise the essential text would lacking for most of them. And filling those is painfully slow on simutranslator.
In any case, please put the changes into base.tab.
Other than that it seems working.
I just could not understand: What does the brown box mean when attaching stuff? If it is connected with fille tiles, then is seems to operate on length 8 instead of lenght 16.
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
There are some errors.
The patch above is quite old. New one attached that resolves many behavioural issues, especially in networkmode.
I can't duplicate your finding with the current patch.
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
I think it would be good to have the format specifiers with the tranlations.
It should be done consistently IMHO. I can change the existing ones so that all have the format specifiers in the translation. I see 5 that are a straight change, and 2 that will expand to 6 translation entries required. The text for the 2 is the same, but there's 3 different formats following - Weight: and Max Speed:.
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Do you mean to change the translations or the source strings. If you mean the latter, please do not change them in simutrans, since these are essentiall identical. Change them in Simutranslator instead.
I meant to change in the code. IMHO the code should contain the 'correct' English text. Having to look up things in the .tabs to figure out the meaning in the code is less than optimal, and extremely error prone...
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Also the space for Convoi 1 of 1 is way too short for almost all languages in simutranslator. Add another 80 pixels or so, please.
Done. Looks like way to much open space to me...
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
The splitting of "Show all" and "Show obsolete" is possible in english, but does not go neccessarily well in other languages. Also it leads to a button "obsolete" with is very far away from the Show.
Was split to make room on the line as before the complaint was not enough room. Two shows is redundant but can be changed back. In the meantime, I shortened the distance. The button positioning is also dynamic to allow for longer texts.
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
In any case, please put the changes into base.tab.
Will do once a final version is ready. What does this file do?
A SimuTranslator 101 would be handy.
Quote from: prissi on November 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
I just could not understand: What does the brown box mean when attaching stuff? If it is connected with fille tiles, then is seems to operate on length 8 instead of lenght 16.
The speedbar below the convoi shows how much of each tile is free, and when hovering over a vehicle to add, shows also how much of the free space will be used by this vehicle. It seems to be working correctly to me, although it uses the true convoi length, not the fake one that shows extra tiles not needed for the convoi to fully load. Try it with vehicles that aren't half a tile in length, makes more sense then.
About the length indicator: I say the leight brown. But still wouldn't it make more sense to use full tiles instead half tiles. Currently is stays the same color even if the same vehicle attached again would go over a tile or not. The indicator seems to use rather half-tiles. That was my main concern.
About translations: The are many text in the game which are not correct english. Please do not touch translations for this. It is already quite a work to change many entires. But transferiing a single entry to a new text needs 20 copy actions from one page to another. Thus if the translations just needs to add or remove a line brak, then I will do this in the translator.
Several languages have currently no active translator. Also simutrans experimental is reusing those text too. Therefore, please recycle as many existing text as possible. Even if they are wrong english or german or even wierder. (Like the "world choose 1" in the new world dialogue.)
The only exception could be tooltips. There a englisch text is better than a wrong hint translation.
Well, I could only test the patch you published. Glad to hear those are fixed already.
It is approaching nighttime, so I will check your new version tomorrow.
Try moving the mouse off the vehicle you're adding and see if that makes more sense. It uses full tiles, but if you're adding a series of half tile vehicles you'll only ever see a half tile free. Suggestions for alternate behaviour welcome... This is one of many things thrown into this patch on an experimental basis. It actually works better than I thought it would, but it does take some getting used to. It could just be ripped back out entirely too.
I honestly have absolutely no idea what to do with the translations, if you care to update the patch as desired...
EDIT: List in post #66 updated to reflect best guess on translations and clarify. Updated patch in #68 - old text left where possible with a comment of what the translation must be. Change requiring simply a \n removed, hardcoded to add the missing instead of translation change.
Did not read everything. But:
Please include format specifier in translation string. Some time ago I implemented a check to ensure that format specifiers are consistently translated. Obviously this method needs to know the correct format to begin with.
Try '-debug 2' to see whether there are broken translation strings somewhere.
Any news?
I'd rather revert all changes needing translation modifications than let this languish...
I played a little around, especially with the bar below the convoi. Now it is green for max speed always possible, orange if overloaded for some wares and red if always overloaded. One could also think of less severe colors, like yellow for some overloading and ornage for complete. Any thoughs?
The other thing: If a convoi cannot attach any more something, them maybe supppres the next car indicator? (That would be easy, too)
If there is consens, then submit.
It seems great. I would personally like to see it committed and if needed polished later.
I wonder if that's too many features all being done by the speedbar now, but interesting idea. The colors are a bit severe, I have no other suggestion. I say put it out there and see if any feedback comes in.
Suppression done.
I see you've recombined the show all and show obsolete buttons. Some languages now overlap, I've improved it a bit with only russian and slovencina overlapping now, but there's no room for the two buttons and the filter on the line with those langs. Are you ok with the overlap? or revert to the old layout here using an extra vertical line?
What about the rest of the translation changes - ok now? I thought they were the issue...
Actually, I am not sure which you changed and which you did not. After your post I assumed you reverted most of it. For the sake of base.tab (which I can create anyway), what is the current state of translations, please?
Updated patch attached. Integrates your new speedbar function, slight color tweak, more dynamic positioning for different languages - less overlapping text.
Current translation state:
New: (strings added to code)
"<no schedule set>"
"<individual schedule>"
"<create new line>"
"--------------------------------"
"Can't buy obsolete vehicles!"
"Cost: %6d$ (%.2f$/km)\n"
"Power: %4d kW\n"
"Weight:" - would require 4 different translation entries if format specifiers included
"Capacity:" - see below
Deprecated: (strings no longer in code)
"Move the selected vehicle(s) back to the depot"
"Lines are used to manage groups of vehicles"
"Add the selected vehicle(s) to the selected line"
"Aufloesen"
"%s\nCost: %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nPower: %dkW\nTop speed: %dkm/h\nWeight: %dt\n"
"%s\nCost: %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nCapacity: %d%s %s\nWeight: %dt\nTop speed: %dkm/h\n"
Translation change required: (code has old text as requested, should be translated as follows:)
"Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line" - tooltip
"Capacity: %d%s %s\n" to "Capacity: %3d%s %s\n" - could be combined with new Capacity: above if format string not translated.
Old but missing: (in code pre-patch but not in translator)
"1 convoi"
"keine Fahrzeuge" - should never happen - would be a logic error in the code if this is ever displayed.
I can create the base.tab changes after final translations are decided on.
For clarity - I'd revert the translations changes rather than throw the whole patch out, that'd only throw out 75%. I didn't do that yet, need to give you some time to look at things! But even better would be consensus on all the translations...
I also stumbles of weight. Especially since max speed is already handled this way too. I think translationwise it is ok.
Could you rephrase that last? I don't understand...
Sorry, "Max Speed:" is handled the same way than weight and is already in the translator. Then it make sense to have also only "Weight:" in the translator.
And 'Max Speed:' was also a result of one of my patches I believe, hence I did it wrong back then. At least wrong from the point of view of wanting format specfiers in the translator. Of course 'retire date' and 'intro date' among others are also done without specifiers. It's the inconsistency of it all that's so confusing.
This inconsistencies that comes with 15 year of development. You was at least spared three different dialogue classes and other more severe stuff. Not to mention the source code translation issues.
If the Simutranslator would be a little closer to the programming team, many nice stuff could be realized, like renaming entries or copying. But still it beats any system we had previously for translations. Nowadays, gettext would be the way to go. Another inconsistency, if you want.
But well, time is limited and so better back to ontopic posts ;)
Committed at r6048.
base.tab updated - hopefully correctly.
Simutranslator suggestions entered for changed entries.
Quote
"Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line" - tooltip
I would rather create a new entry at the translator site instead of hijacking an old entry. There are translations without active translators, which means wrong translation will persist.
any opinions?
Edit: What is the difference between the new string <individual schedule> and the old <no line> ? As I understand the action of the entry, it would be better to phrase it <clear schedule>.
I think this is a bug. If you have a convoi with an individual schedule, selecting individual schedule should preserved the existing schedule. Same for create new line. If the convoi has already an individual schedule, create new line should rather copy this schedule to the new line (and of course still open the schedule window).
Quote from: Dwachs on November 15, 2012, 08:15:54 AM
I would rather create a new entry at the translator site instead of hijacking an old entry. There are translations without active translators, which means wrong translation will persist.
any opinions?
I agree. However prissi stated a preference to reuse old strings, and said it's not critical to the dialog; But then stated better new untranslated text than a wrong tooltip. No wonder I'm confused on what's wanted with translator stuff...
Quote from: Dwachs on November 15, 2012, 08:15:54 AM
Edit: What is the difference between the new string <individual schedule> and the old <no line> ? As I understand the action of the entry, it would be better to phrase it <clear schedule>.
I thought <individual schedule> was more descriptive than <no line>. Also easy to confuse between a status and an action in the selector. Anyway I added <clear schedule> to make it clear that's what will happen when a line is assigned and that selection is made. Clearer I think.
Quote from: prissi on November 15, 2012, 10:13:04 AM
I think this is a bug. If you have a convoi with an individual schedule, selecting individual schedule should preserved the existing schedule.
Fixed. Although a quick way to clear the schedule is handy...
Quote from: prissi on November 15, 2012, 10:13:04 AM
Same for create new line. If the convoi has already an individual schedule, create new line should rather copy this schedule to the new line (and of course still open the schedule window).
I wouldn't call a missing feature a bug. :P
Added.
About translations I propose:
Reuse stuff for critical things in dialiges as much as possible: But if dialoge functions have completely changed, or the working of tools then change related help file names or tooltips. Because those will not help but only confuse. In that cases a missing help might be better that a wrong one.
Bug report:
Built a depot, buy a convoi, create a new line (add stops), then try to change to individual schedule. This entry is not visible but two seperaqtores and scrolling up with arrows will just trigger "create new line". Assigning "individual schedule" is no longer possible. (I could of course edit the schudle and the connection to the line is lost, but this is not helping a beginner).
This can happen only when there's a single line. If you have more than one, the last selected line list item will get populated and block selecting create new line. I can't find a way to allow scrolling past the last selected without breaking things worse. Using the mouse always works.
As for inadvertently triggering create new line, I blocked it from being triggered when the droplist is closed. i.e. when selecting using the prev/next buttons. Didn't think of selecting using the keyboard with the droplist open. Only fix I can think of is for the keyboard to not select things until enter is hit. But the whole gui isn't setup for that, everything takes effect immediately.
It did happen with three lines, leaving the last line blank and hiding the topmost "clear schedule" entries. But your corrections have aparently fixed it. Thank you.
I just removed the double seperator, I found this not very elegant.
(So this is the thread about the new depot dialog? At first, I struggled with it, but then found the improvements very useful!)
Some remarks (as tested with r6162; may not even relate to this patch):
1) After opening a drop-down list, the <Escape> key does not do anything: it closes neither the list nor the window, and the latter persists after closing the list with the mouse - it does not close the window any more.
2) Double-clicking on the convoy (tail) to disassemble it completely (feature, right?) does not work reliably on my PC, perhaps the double-click threshold is too short. (Strg-Click shows no different effect.)
3) When setting up e.g. a combined bus and mail truck line: is there a better way than creating the bus line, release the busses, buy a mail truck and then get the line from the list again (should show up as second)? Retaining the line selection for the next convoy would fit me better. It would also be useful for renaming the line after sending out the convoys. EDIT: also, selecting a line and then buying a vehicle clears the line, which I stumble upon rather frequently.
4) When changing the number of vehicles in the view by the buttons "show all"/"show outdated", the scroll bar is not updated.
5) I remember that some time ago, all vehicle types with stored vehicles were shown even without "show all" being selected. I liked that more than the current view, where stored vehicles will be hidden if they cannot be chosen as next item. I think that they should only be hidden whenever a convoy is selected (to be changed) *and* they are incompatible (at this point or at all?).
Mosr issues with dropdown boxes and keys in depots are now hopefully solved. Please test with r6187.
Which scrollbar do you refer to?
If there are more vehicles (to choose from) than fit into the window, then a scrollbar appears. This scrollbar is not adjusted when the number of these vehicles changes. Again, more a Pak128 problem, but also Pak64 should have enough vehicles (without timeline or at a late year) to make this scrollbar necessary.
I think I've seen this with pak64 as well.
r6196 should fix this too. Please test it.
regarding
1): With r6197 Win-SDL (using pak64): ESC still does not close the drop-down list and - after this happened and the list has been closed with the mouse - the window. This does not occur at every attempt, but quite often.
4): fixed
Lists never closed with ESC, at least this key is not processed. YOu can close them by Enter.
For the record: I changed to "Cost %6d..." string of the depot window into the new one, introduced with r6293/4.
Thanks. Speedy ;)
---
Quote from: whoami on December 14, 2012, 08:55:02 PM
2) Double-clicking on the convoy (tail) to disassemble it completely (feature, right?) does not work reliably on my PC, perhaps the double-click threshold is too short. (Strg-Click shows no different effect.)
Threshold is hardcoded to 400ms. Rather too long IMHO as it's easy to inadvertantly trigger...
The double click function is also used in text edit boxes to select words, and in the minimap to recenter. Does it work reliably for you in those places?
Quote from: whoami on December 14, 2012, 08:55:02 PM
3) When setting up e.g. a combined bus and mail truck line: is there a better way than creating the bus line, release the busses, buy a mail truck and then get the line from the list again (should show up as second)?
Third item in the line list should be the last selected line. Saves one from having the scroll through the whole list searching again.
Quote from: whoami on December 14, 2012, 08:55:02 PM
Retaining the line selection for the next convoy would fit me better. It would also be useful for renaming the line after sending out the convoys. EDIT: also, selecting a line and then buying a vehicle clears the line, which I stumble upon rather frequently.
Retaining the selection doesn't get along with multiplayer; I don't see an easy way to implement.
I've stumbled across that myself, I think it's from being so used to the old way where selecting the line first was natural. Maybe the line selection should be blocked until a convoi is present?
Quote from: TurfIt on January 20, 2013, 08:35:04 PM
Retaining the selection doesn't get along with multiplayer; I don't see an easy way to implement.
For the record: WTF? I trust you, but that kind of restriction... weird :o The code gets too complicated for outside understanding!
If there is a last_selected_line bound in said depot, it should be possible to reassign it. This could be done from the depot frame after creation of a convoi. But it would be a hack, since it would involve polling the state and set a waiting line bound flagto be executed in the clear_command_pending() call.
I'd tried this previously:
Index: simwerkz.cc
===================================================================
--- simwerkz.cc (revision 6198)
+++ simwerkz.cc (working copy)
@@ -6152,6 +6152,13 @@
depot->append_vehicle( cnv, veh, tool=='i', is_local_execution() );
}
}
+ // apply line only after vehicle added
+ if( depot->get_last_selected_line().is_bound() ) {
+ cnv->set_line( depot->get_last_selected_line() );
+ cnv->get_schedule()->set_aktuell( depot->get_last_selected_line()->get_schedule()->get_aktuell() );
+ }
+
+
}
}
}
Can't remember what all was wrong with it... (besides a player being able to change last_selected inbetween the command being issued and executed.)
Aside: Should a newly created line get set as last_selected?
Quote from: TurfIt on January 20, 2013, 08:35:04 PM
---Threshold is hardcoded to 400ms. Rather too long IMHO as it's easy to inadvertantly trigger...
That is true. When I need to just remove two wagons in a train, it may often remove too much. On the other hand, double-click is often not recognized as such (as I wrote).
QuoteThe double click function is also used in text edit boxes to select words, and in the minimap to recenter. Does it work reliably for you in those places?
The first seems to be OK, but I hardly use it, so there might still be similar glitches (in my environment). Minimap: single-click is enough, double-click does not seem to do anything different.
After testing this, I checked convoy disassembly again in the tram depot (pak64), and it worked perfectly. So I tried again in the train depot, and some (although few) double-clicks were taken as two single-clicks. There may be dependency on high CPU load (for one core), as it appears to behave better in pause mode. The problem might be that the first click removes one wagon/engine, and the second click is applied to the new state (as far as visible to me), yet double-click works most of the time. In Pak128, this might also interfere with non-standard vehicle lengths, because wagons positions may change (in this case, there is also a problem with hitting the right wagon due to clickable panes being misaligned to and having a different size from the wagon image). (This is on WinXP SDL.)
QuoteThird item in the line list should be the last selected line. Saves one from having the scroll through the whole list searching again.
This works after selecting a line from the list, but not after creation of a line. (A new line is not entered in the top entries of the list, even if there is no other remembered line, so this is likely not a feature.)
QuoteMaybe the line selection should be blocked until a convoi is present?
I would prefer to be able to select a line and then assemble a new convoy for it, if this is possible.