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Simutrans Extended => Simutrans Extended Paksets => Pak128.Sweden-Ex => Topic started by: Vladki on April 08, 2015, 08:16:52 PM

Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 08, 2015, 08:16:52 PM
Hi, there. As you may have noticed the recent nightlies have configurable offsets for signals on left, so I decided to try some more stuff on swedish signs and signals. Work is in progress. As a taster here is a screenshot of modern pre-signal. Stay tuned...
And an attempt to make smaller dwarf signals.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 09, 2015, 08:58:25 AM
I thought I recognized the five light signal you used to demonstrate in that discussion thread! ;) great to hear! Haven't tried the nightlies but it will be nice to get signals proper on left side of the track! :) the dwarf signal looks great! Just to address the games lack of antialiasing, how would it look like if you made the corners on the signal fade into a lighter shade? I know it's a hack but if not too much could be interesting to try.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 09, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Indeed the 5-light signal is the same.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 10, 2015, 06:52:43 PM
Well, here is long overdue stuff: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/
You'll find railsignals with fixed offsets, smaller dwarf signals, better pre-signal.
Roadsigns come in two sizes - big ones with more variety, and small ones - only the basic ones.
Small ones are yet in two more versions - fully saturated and a bit darker. Png contains both, you have to choose in dat file which images are used. Minimum speed sign is made as blue circle with white blob... the blob may be a bus or car, so the sign is - cars/buses only (reserved lane).

Enjoy

Hmm, I have just found minimum speed sign in SFS1966.pdf (sign 112. Pabjuden minimihastighet) - white numbers on blue backgroung, just like in other european countries.

Added old rail sign for one-way (red circle) and end-of-choose (green square).
Added two-arm semaphore (long signal), and three-arm semaphore (choose signal)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 11, 2015, 12:19:28 AM
Great! Can't wait to try it out! :-)
It just comes to my mind, James is about to redo the signaling functions of experimental, do you happen to know which signals he will make possible? I see you already made the presignal correct with green as danger and white as safe and even made it with one and two greens! Do you think James would be open for animations on signals? Then the presignal could be flashing!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Junna on April 11, 2015, 01:34:32 AM
Modern speed limit is generally a tiny yellow square with black edge. It's a pain to read when you don't have any in-cab display for the speed limit...

Also, invariably the Swedish signals are black/grey and have generally a thinner frame (they are generally quite low and don't typically have a ladder for access).
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 11, 2015, 10:31:06 AM
The changes in experimental are mostly about pre-signals. They now (branch devel-new) work as real distant signals. Hmm perhaps longer description would be fine - at leas this is how I understand how it works:

The (virtual simutrans) train driver knows where the signal is, but can see it only one tile ahead. But the breaking distance of train is usually longer. Thus the train has to brake in advance of the signal, slowing down to some 50 km/h. Thats without pre-signal. Reservations go from main signal to main signal - pre-signals ignored. Pre-signals can be passed at top speed at any aspect.
If train approaches pre-signal - reservation of next block is attempted and if succesfull the train will not slow down at the main signal.
Important change is that you need "departure" signals on stations. Otherwise the train will go in "drive-by-sight" mode, ready to stop immediately - usually at most 50 km/h.

James is planning to make 3-aspect signals (danger/caution/free). For swedish signals we could use 4-light signal for that: (red, 2xgreen, green+white), but no blinking is planned AFAIK.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 11, 2015, 11:48:11 AM
ok, thanks for the summary! Departure signals, is that going to be a special signal type or any signal be used?
Yes the 4-light signal would be ideal for that!

Junna has a point that the swedish signals usually never have a latter going up the pole.

I must ask, when im opening the datfile signals.dat from your server on my computer, the entire file is expressed as a on long continiously text making it very very difficult to read. Am I doing something wrong, or is it just not to be helped?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 11, 2015, 12:55:29 PM
ok, thanks for the summary! Departure signals, is that going to be a special signal type or any signal be used?
Just normal signal, or whatever is appropriate for that situation (long or choose signal)

Quote
I must ask, when im opening the datfile signals.dat from your server on my computer, the entire file is expressed as a on long continiously text making it very very difficult to read. Am I doing something wrong, or is it just not to be helped?
Thats because Linux uses only LF for end-of-line, while windows uses CR+LF. I use Linux so the files use LF. Wordpad should deal with such files.


Update: road sign for min speed is now with numbers, rail signs improved, signals without ladder - now the height can be better adjusted. Still a lot to do...

Update2: added min. speed signa for rail - yellow with black as junna suggested

Update3: mechanical presignal (green disc)

Update4: an attempt to make smaller signal (2-px lights, 4px wide), it was too thin compared to the 2 px pole... Maybe even too high... I tried to add the white rim, looks better:
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 11, 2015, 11:48:04 PM
This is really great! :)
I didnt find the signals with the white rim around, did you upload that to your server? As far as I know, the white rim around the signals came after quite some time, but I dont remember. Would it be too much to have both variations?

However, I took all your (rail) signals i found through the ages and put next to each other and a train:
(https://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/signals.jpg?)
What comes to my mind is (besides that they are awsome! ;) ) that especially the modern signals might still be on a too high pole.

Another thing is that some of the signs currently are conflicting with the catenary pole. If the sign was to be painted over the pole it wouldnt matter, but unfortunately they are not. I know you have reworked the signal position codewise, is there some position in the .png-file where they wont conflict with the pole and still work with the new signal placement?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 12, 2015, 09:21:28 AM
The white rim is not finished yet. Only the one view on the screenshot.

Height can be easilly adjusted now when the ladder is gone.

Signal must be on tile border, otherwise it will look bad on slopes and diagonals. I can move it only sidewise (closer or farther from the track.

Do you have some picture of signal and presignal in real life to see its relative height/size compared to catenary?

I forgot to write about the new signalling one important thing - one sided signals are now ingored in the opposite direction.
Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 12, 2015, 11:51:31 PM
I got that that signals will be ignored from behind! A very nice addition!

It was more dificult to find pictures on google than anticipated.
This search generated a few pictures of the wish:
https://www.google.com/search?q=svenska+signaler&espv=2&biw=1786&bih=901&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MQMrVa09xZayAYK4gZAB&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=signaler+j%C3%A4rnv%C3%A4g (https://www.google.com/search?q=svenska+signaler&espv=2&biw=1786&bih=901&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MQMrVa09xZayAYK4gZAB&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=signaler+j%C3%A4rnv%C3%A4g)

Otherwise there are some information and pictures I think on the server in the 'signals' documentation folder.

Edit:
I found this site about early signaling.
http://www.ekeving.se/hi/sj-regl-1858.html (http://www.ekeving.se/hi/sj-regl-1858.html)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 13, 2015, 09:15:55 AM
Wow, a goog link - it found czechoslovak semaphore as well :) 
I went through the docs a few times, its a lot of stuff, very detailed. I know there are some tech specs (sizes, etc), but for the game I feel that relative sizes are better - I cannot make the signal only pixels wide, and I'm not sure what is the vertical scale. We always spoke about 24 m/tile (4px = 1.5m) but how does it translate to height?
Thats, why I feel that a photo of real one would be more relevant...


Hm, the problem with catenary poles is nasty. I think the only option is to put the signals more to the side, so that they are further from track than the catenary poles, or in case of dwarf signal - closer to the track..
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 13, 2015, 04:34:11 PM
The poles could also be moved. They are reused from some other pak. Maybe moved closer to the track?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 13, 2015, 05:57:22 PM
Here is a screenshot - signal is on the left of the track, reduced height, and put aside of the catenary pole.
Another option is to make the signal even smaller, and put it "inside" (between the pole and track) on the photos it look like the signal height is about half of the catenary pole...

Hmmm, moving the poles closer might look good. Anyway the horizontal part seems to be quite long...

Update: dwarf signal squeezed between the pole and track.

Update2: normal signal squeezed under the catenary... Perhaps this is the right scale ? But I'm afraid the 5-light signal won't fit...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 13, 2015, 07:48:54 PM
Wow it looks very nice! Im currently working on repositioning the catenary poles, where would you suggest I put them? maybe one or two pixels closer to the track?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 13, 2015, 08:02:00 PM
I would put them closer, so that the base of the pole is completely inside the trackbed. In that case the signals would have to go on the outside.

Which size of the signals looks better?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 13, 2015, 08:37:10 PM
I moved the poles 4 pixels closer to the track centre (that is, 4 pixels towards track, 2 pixels down)
I put the very unfinished new catenary on the server if you want to try. Only directions this works for the moment is straight north/south or east/west. No junctions, corners etc as it takes some time to move all the catenaries and poles. final version will be on the server later this evening :)

edit: And regarding the size, its difficult to judge when one signal was outside (the one with a rim) and the other inside the catenary pole. But maybe the shorter one gets more consistent?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 13, 2015, 09:25:06 PM
Check the docs. Maybe there is a scheme of catenary with sizes...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 13, 2015, 10:06:20 PM
Im now finished with the catenary and they are on the server. Looks overall better with the poles closer to the track!
I was refering to the signals sizes which you painted :) can you try the new catenary and see how the signals look with them?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 14, 2015, 02:47:40 PM
Yep looks beter. I found inthe swedish docs this: ritning01.png an loket_3.png. It says that the height of catenatry abov rails should be 5600 mm, and distance of pole from center of rails 2600-3000 mm. That makes only 7-8 px (2 tilesteps). Which is even closer, than the modified catenary (16 px). I'm not sure about the height - how does that translate to our scale 24 m/tile  ?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 14, 2015, 04:39:20 PM
I calculated on it a bit last night and found that the painted catenary is quite a bit higher than the real catenary. I think the real world catenary would translate to about 12 pixels in height, where my catenary where something like 18-20 pixels(??) (I'm not home and can't check so I'm unsure if I'm remembering correct)

I could try to make a real scale catenary when I get home to see what it looks like.
It's just that the rest of the world probably will be a bigger scale (the houses I painted are in approximately 10 m/tile, so many of the addons currently existing). Therefore a slightly bigger catenary might look more in scale?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 14, 2015, 05:12:49 PM
the scale of catenary should be the same as scale of trains, (otherwise it will be too high and trains will not have electrical contact)

I did some geometry research, to find the correct heights... Hmm found interesting stufff.  The isometric display in simutrans and similar games is not true isometric. X axis is not at 30 degrees, but 26.7 ... a perfect cube filling a pak128 tile should be 72 pixels high, and for 24 m/tile it makes 3px/m (OK some rounding happened...)

Soo... if contact wire i 5.6 m above rail, that makes 16.8 pixels... it is 22-23 now, so could be reduced to 16-17
Red lamp in signal should be 3 m above rail - 9 pixels (uhmmm not much), and with 350mm between lights we are again at 1 px lamps... :-(
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 14, 2015, 08:46:08 PM
Sorry, I was wrong, the catenary should be around 16 pixels high to be in scale. Currently the catenary is around 22 pixels. The poles are currently 4 tilesteps (16 pixels) away from the centre of the track.

So, to see what looks like what, I made some tests:

The height of the catenary from track is, as well as the distance from centre, as much in scale as possible.
2 tilesteps (8 pixels) from track centre to pole
16 pixels from track centre to catenary
(https://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/catenary_in-scale.jpg?)
Two things: Consider the fact that I apperently have not painted the trains truly in scale regarding height, some of the pantographs seems to miss the catenary by reaching to far. Although that could probably be resolved by repainting the pantographs.
The other is that the poles end up closer to the track than the platform does. The tracks itself are (apperently also :P ) not painted truly in scale. 1,435m rounded to 1,5=1 tilestep = 4 pixels and when I measure the tracks I get 1½ tilestep (ca 6 pixels) wide. Repainting the tracks is quite a big job....

What do you think?

Edit:
I tried to suit the catenary and pole to fit the existing graphics and came up with this:
11 pixels from track to centre of pole
18 pixels from track centre to catenary
(https://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/catenary_slightly-bigger.jpg?)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 14, 2015, 09:51:46 PM
Hmm, I'm interested in others' opinions... Is it really worth to try havng everything at the exact same scale? There was a lenghty discussion about scales in pak128.Britain. And they have width and height of vehicles exaggerated by 1.25. See here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=13153.0

Anyway the poles seem to be too close to the track, and the wires too low. If we use the british rule (x1.25), then the poles should go 10px from track center, and 20 px high. If we use track a width base: 6px = 1.5m then the poles should be 12px from track center. Regarding the height - how high are the railway cars? (in meters and pixels) - that could tell us the height scale used and the catanary could be adjusted to that. No need to repaint all the vehicles.

IMHO, we should not take the scale too seriously, but aim for the best look and playability.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Junna on April 15, 2015, 04:39:37 PM
I agree with what Vladki said, that the appearance and playability should take precedent over everything being exactly accurately dimensioned. Sometimes that can just look bad and so on.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 15, 2015, 08:05:05 PM
Great! I agree with both of you :-)


Quote
Regarding the height - how high are the railway cars? (in meters and pixels)
The height of the 1930-generation of cars are in real life: 4,06m = ca 11-12 pixels
The height of the painted version = 13-14 pixels (dependent on how you measure)

The X10-X14 Has these specs:
IRL (folded pantograph) = 3,79m = ca 10-11 pixels
Painted version (folded pantograph) = 13-14 pixels
Painted version (raised pantograph) = 19-20 pixels (difficult to meisure)

With upfolded pantographs, all pantographs should in real life hit 5,6m = 16 pixels


I will make a new catenary based on this and Vladkis meassures
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 15, 2015, 08:45:21 PM
I will make a new catenary based on this and Vladkis meassures

OK, when the catenary is done, I'll try to adjust the signals in proportion to that.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 15, 2015, 09:21:17 PM
They are not finished, but a preliminary version is on the server, only the north-south and east-west directions are finished.

They look like this:
(https://glasbordsbanan.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/catenary_final.jpg?)
Also, the fundament is removed.

I think that looks acceptable :)

edit: typo

edit: Final version on the server
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 19, 2015, 06:50:19 PM
OK, readjusted signals to be in the middle between poles and tile border. Height adjusted to have red light at catenary height. I know it should be lower, but then the 5-light signal would almost touch the ground... Well what do you think? Is this size acceptable, or should I try something smaller?

Update: all modern signals adjusted, and uploaded
Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 19, 2015, 07:16:49 PM
These signals looks nice. :-) How does the 5-light signal look like?
One thing that comes to my mind, do you think one would like to see the status of the signal from behind? I mean if The player wants to know in what status the signals are without rotating the map, how could that be done? Over the edge like the signals in the standard pak (the presignal might not work).
Discrete dots on the back of signal, like there is some leakages of light in the lamp houses?

Edit: there the five light signals was! I think you found a nice compromise between the scales. If anything, try move the signals closer to the overhead pole, to make it look more in line with the track. Maybe only one or two pixels space from the pole.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 19, 2015, 07:54:58 PM
Signal from back - I had a version with light visible over the edge, but didnt like it. I it requires the "hood" visible as well and swedish signals seem to have quite short "hood". Leakage sounds interesting. Do swedish signals leak the light this way? Leakege would be a solution for pre-signal as well.

I'll move it closer - just to see if the pre-signal won't collide with poles.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 19, 2015, 08:18:39 PM
I don't think the real life signals leak anything particular out the back way, at least not on purpose. But let's not tell anyone ;-)
If you do the pole on the backside shorter (under bottom lamp) you could make some shadows of lamp houses, wires etcetera on the grey back (it should be kind of grey, not black) then a single pixel of "lamp color" on the edge of a shadow?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 19, 2015, 09:24:06 PM
I'll try the leakage... In the meantime I have moved the signals closer to the track... Hmm back at the original position...
Also I have modified the earliest signals - the guys with flags, so that - red is stop, green is caution and white is clear.
For long signal, the guy has got red hat. I just have to turn the guys for the left side... Anyway, it seem that the swedish rules are very similar to old austro-hungarian (and also early czechoslovak) rules. I hope to hit two flies with one hit.

Changes are uploaded, no screenshot now.
Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 20, 2015, 08:31:39 AM
Great! Looking forward to see the results!
I'm wondering, do you intend to also do the early semaphore signals? The semaphores you already painted are from around 1915 and the oldest ones are from around 1858 (according to http://www.ekeving.se/hi/sj-regl-1858.html btw, would you like a translation?). In the earlier days, the semaphores points downwards and have a slightly other design. And was in fact three aspect signals (danger, caution and free)

Anyway, it seem that the swedish rules are very similar to old austro-hungarian (and also early czechoslovak) rules. I hope to hit two flies with one hit.
Nice! :-)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 20, 2015, 06:45:29 PM
No, unless there are also many trains from 19th century. Theres a lot of work on 20th century semafores and I want to move on to other projects. Guys with flags/lamps will have to do for now. Translation is not necessary now (but would be interrsting). Just help me with the timeline.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 20, 2015, 07:53:21 PM
ok I understand you have more projects! Currently there are no train before 1914 so in that way, earlier semaphore signals can wait :)
Help you with timeline?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 21, 2015, 06:08:39 AM
When the first light signals appeared, when the last semaphore was built...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 21, 2015, 11:00:08 AM
Ah ok!
1858 - First semaphore model (danger, caution, stop)
1870 and 1890 - two and three wing semaphores are introduced.
1906 - the semaphores is now decided to point upwards (the models you have painted)
1915 - introduction of presignal
1920'ies - first modern signals (light signals) appears.  Number of lights represent number of wings
1950ies - the last semaphores are built (according to http://www.jvmv2.se/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=90897 )
I try to find when the signals got the white rim, but haven't found anywhere. Somebody happen to know?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on August 30, 2015, 08:58:05 PM
Here is an attempt for a light signal without the white rim, and also with modified backside (narrower), so that the light can be seen also from backside. I really hate the backside, but I have not got any better idea.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on August 30, 2015, 09:31:13 PM
Sweet! Although I could live with that backside, did you try painting the grey color on the backside with a brighter grey?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Junna on August 30, 2015, 10:05:38 PM
Ah ok!
1858 - First semaphore model (danger, caution, stop)
1870 and 1890 - two and three wing semaphores are introduced.

Does that mean you intend to introduce actual early steam engines and earlier rolling stock?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on August 30, 2015, 10:25:21 PM
Yes! Although I don't know how to paint them yet. Maybe go for rendering?
Incidentally I already painted some of the earliest G-cars, showed in the other thread.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Junna on August 31, 2015, 12:28:34 AM
Rendering certainly makes it easier, but I don't know how you would maintain consistency. If you do go this way, I recommend it might be easiest - for consistency of the visual appearance - for you to make a basic model, render this and then draw on it to add details and touches. It will make it easier for you to maintain a consistency of scale and appearance for steam engines, which are notoriously quite complex in their shape by their nature, without compromising the visual consistency.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 02, 2015, 08:36:56 PM
Vladki, do you have the sources for the signal? the latest update on your server I could find is 19 april.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 03, 2015, 06:39:19 AM
I'll try some modifications and upload tonight.

Well here it is - I repainted also the pole to pure grey - I took the same colors as for big road signs.
As you can see it is a bit harder to see it on grey track, an similar problem is with the road signs.
It may need some tuning when rails and roads are finished.

New files are uploaded, but the png and pak are the same as used to be (white rim) for consistency. This signal is only in src/signals_1_small.xcf (gimp), and here as attachment.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 03, 2015, 10:31:44 PM
Incidentally, may I ask whether there are any plans to make this pakset open source?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 03, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
Quote
As you can see it is a bit harder to see it on grey track, an similar problem is with the road signs.
It may need some tuning when rails and roads are finished.
At the first look, i have no problem 'finding' the signal, however I have not tried yet ingame.

Quote
Well here it is - I repainted also the pole to pure grey - I took the same colors as for big road signs.
Although the color on this new pole is very much better, it also makes it look very much thicker. Next to the catenary, it almost looks twice as thick.

Quote
New files are uploaded, but the png and pak are the same as used to be (white rim) for consistency. This signal is only in src/signals_1_small.xcf (gimp), and here as attachment.
great thanks! Im looking at the signal in the .xcf-file and it looks great! Will export and pak it to get it ingame tomorrow.

Quote
Incidentally, may I ask whether there are any plans to make this pakset open source?
Well, yes in the end, I think the plans are to make it open source like the rest of the game. However, I cant really overview how to make that happen with updates, contributions and how im supposed to work with the sources as its all currently down on my computer.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 03, 2015, 11:03:37 PM
Well, yes in the end, I think the plans are to make it open source like the rest of the game. However, I cant really overview how to make that happen with updates, contributions and how im supposed to work with the sources as its all currently down on my computer.

May I suggest using Github? It's free for open source projects, and it's what is used for Pak128.Britain-Ex (and there is a mirror for Standard's version, too).
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 03, 2015, 11:14:19 PM
Quote
May I suggest using Github? It's free for open source projects, and it's what is used for Pak128.Britain-Ex (and there is a mirror for Standard's version, too).
Funny, as I was about to check it out, it didnt accept my email adress, and it appeared that I already had signed up for it ages ago but never used it and forgot it :P

edit: gosh, I realize why I gave up so quicly last time! how do you create folders and upload files? Its only yelling about pull requests and commits....
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 04, 2015, 06:41:07 AM
The poles are 2 px thick. Just as the catenary. Imho catenary looks thin on green background as it is painted in green-grey. Should the signal pole have the same color as catenary?

No need to export and compile. Pak (for std) is attached above.

License for signals: artistic same as simutrans and many paks. Feel free to improve.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 04, 2015, 01:04:07 PM

The poles are 2 px thick. Just as the catenary. Imho catenary looks thin on green background as it is painted in green-grey. Should the signal pole have the same color as catenary?
The signal poles should not have the same color as the catenary poles. I think you found a good color. The artistic decision I made behind the current catenary poles is that I think they look too thick if they got to be 3 pixels wide. Also, the irl poles are wider at the bottom than the top, but this won't look good as it will be very edgy.
However the brigtnes of the poles could still be adjusted.

Reason the signal poles looks thicker (to my eyes) is the brighter pole which will shine more on the screen than the relatively dark catenary pole and the signal itself.
Maybe you could try to darken the color and quite heavily the 'shadow' side of the pole (the right side) or simply make the pole only one pixel wide.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 07, 2015, 09:34:59 AM
Vladki, Im about to create this public Github repository, do you mind if I put the signals you created there?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 07, 2015, 03:58:48 PM
I don't mind, but please give me access so I can upload new versions. It is work in progress.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 07, 2015, 05:58:58 PM
Quote
I don't mind, but please give me access so I can upload new versions. It is work in progress.
Yes ofcourse! ... once I figure out how.. ;)
At least I think you need a profile on github, and then I should search for your name.

I will soon share the link to the repository in the forum, only need to understand the last things!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 18, 2015, 11:38:19 PM
I see that the sources for these have been added to the Github repository - splendid! I see also that the .dat files from Pak128.Britain (Standard) have been used. Did any of you want any help in setting up these signals to work with the new signalling features in Experimental?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on October 19, 2015, 06:47:48 AM
Sure I do. I had a quick look on the dats of new signals in pak britain but some sort of reference would be handy.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 19, 2015, 10:34:39 AM
That would be great to have some references! Also eventually to all other cool stuff you implemented :-)
Vladki, do you have access to the github? Can you "do" stuff there?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 19, 2015, 10:59:03 PM
Here is a basic reference, adapted from the notes in various commits on Github. I do hope that this is useful; let me know if you have any questions.

New data members for signals' .dat files are as follows:

- aspects: the number of aspects that a signal has (default: 2 for all signals but pre-signals; maximum is 5)
- has_call_on: whether the signal has a call-on aspect defined (0: no; >0: yes; default 0);
- has_selective_choose: whether different graphics are provided for choose signals operating as such or operating as normal signals (0: no; >0: yes; default 0);
- permissive: whether this signal will let trains pass in the drive by sight working method assuming no converging or diverging routes to the next signal after it has been brought to a stand (0: no; >0: yes; default 0);
- max_speed: the maximum speed at which a train can approach this signal in km/h (default: 160) (Note: Was originally incorrectly written in this post as max_speed_kmh)
- signal_groups: comma separated list of numbers (1 to 31); if any of these numbers match any numbers specified in a signalbox's "signal_groups" comma separated list, this signal can be built from that signalbox. An entry of 0 (default) means that this signal can be built without a signalbox.
- working_method: the working method used by the signal, which will determine the method in which the train operates when under this signal's control. Default: track_circuit_block. Setting a signal to "drive_by_sight" makes it an end of signalling sign (beyond which trains operated in drive by sight mode) rather than a signal in the conventional sense. Possible methods:

   - drive_by_sight;
    - time_interval;
    - absolute_block;
    - track_circuit_block (the default if none of the other valid types are specified);
    - token_block (this will have the same effect as setting the signal to be a longblock signal);
    - cab_signalling;
    - moving_block; and
    - one_train_staff.

NOTE: any signal encoded as a "longblock" signal will override any user specified working method with the token block working method. A "longblock" signal is identical to a signal with the token block working method. It is recommended not to encode signals as "longblock" for clarity and consistency. It is preserved for backwards compatibility only.

- upgrade_group: a signal with the same upgrade group as this signal will automatically upgrade to this signal in the following conditions: (1) that signal is obsolete; (2) this signal is current; and (3) the underlying track is being renewed or replaced. Be very careful to make sure that signals in the same signal group are functionally identical to avoid unpredictable results, and likewise, make sure that only one signal in every upgrade group is current at the same time so as to avoid unpredictable results.
- signal_upgrade_cost: the cost that will be charged to a player when the signal is updated as above.
- max_distance_to_signalbox: the maximum distance from any signalbox that this signal can be placed EXCEPT for signals in the moving block working method, in which this instead denotes the maximum distance between moving block signals/beacons (any greater space than these and the train reverts to drive by sight after that distance has passed); this is expressed in meters
- is_presignal: this works largely as before, except that this now designates the signal as a distant signal or repeater signal, depending on the working method (distant signal in absolute block, repeater elsewhere; the difference between the two is slight in any event). What they both have in common is that a train will never be brought to a stop at a signal marked is_presignal: such a signal does nothing more than give an indication of the state of signals ahead. Note that if a signal has is_presignal=1 defined, is in the absolute block working method and has aspects=3, it is treated as a combined signal (that is, a signal that is both a distant and a stop ("home" or "starting") signal at once. The stop signal part will always work, but the distant signal part will only work if the next signalbox on the train's route is in range.

As for signalboxes, the .dat file parameters are:

Obj=building
Type=signalbox

allow_underground - as with signals; allows underground signalboxes
signal_groups - as with signals: see above
radius - the maximum distance from this signalbox that any signal connected to it can be placed
capacity - the maximum number of signals that can be connected to this signalbox at any given time

All other parameters are as for buildings (including new parameters, such as population_and_visitor_demand_capacity or employment_capacity.

Have a look at the Github repository for Pak128.Britain-Ex (especially here (https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/tree/half-heights/signalboxes) and here (https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/blob/half-heights/ways/signals.dat)) for worked examples of this in practice.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on October 20, 2015, 07:04:10 AM
Hi, james. Thanks for this nice reference. A few questions though:

What is the difference between token block and one train staff (staff as stick or staff as employees?)

What is the difference if aspects=3 and is_presignal=0 or 1

What is the simutrans use of call_on and permissive signals? I always thougt their use is only in case of signalling failure, ans there are no failures in simutrans.

Does cab signalling and moving block require changes in engine dat file?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 20, 2015, 02:42:28 PM
Really great references!
Looking through the links you posted, and there's some great work and cleverness behind it! Keep up! :-)
It will probably take some time to fully understand it all...

Sometime in the future, I could help you write descriptions to all new parameters in the datfiles :-)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 20, 2015, 09:17:05 PM
Vladki,

I answer your questions below.

(1) Single train staff as against token block

(a) Single train staff (and "staff" as in stick rather than employee) is a system in which only one train is permitted on a whole stretch of line. It is very simple in operation: only a train whose driver is in physical possession of the staff may enter the section. This system must therefore have only one entry and exit point for all trains, or else the staff will be left in the wrong place. It is only really useful for either entire lines where only one train is running (very basic railways, where this would be placed on the exit from the depot and not on the train's normal route), or single track dead-end sections that have no internal signalling. In Simutrans-Experimental, the staff cabinets (there can be more than one for a section, but they must be placed in an immediately adjacent tile to one another to work as one) work by reserving the train's entire route until it comes back and reaches that cabinet again (or until it reaches the same point in its schedule as it is now, whichever is sooner).

(b) Token block is a much more sophisticated system. In real railways, it requires a train's driver to hold a physical token before entering the section. However, there is more than one such token, meaning that many trains can go through the section in one direction one after another. Only one token can be released at any one time. This is ensured by telegraph equipment at either end of the section. The rest of the tokens are locked in the token machine. This allows signalling of a single track line with multiple sections and multiple entry and exit points. In Simutrans-Experimental, trains will reserve the route only as far as the next signal, but will not unreserve the route until they pass the next signal.

(c) I had considered implementing an intermediate system between the two called staff and ticket, which was the way in which single track lines were signalled before the telegraph was used (it was introduced in the late 1850s but took a while to spread fully). Like the simple staff system, a physical staff represents the permission to be in a section. However, instead of having to take a staff, a driver may take a "ticket" instead provided that he/she sees the staff before entering the section. This allows more than one train to pass in the same direction without a train going back in the other direction. However, I decided not to implement this because, even in real life, this could frequently lead to deadlocks which, in real life, had to be resolved by sending somebody on horseback to the next station to collect the staff.

(2) For absolute block signals, aspects>2 is not supported except when is_presignal=1. For track circuit block, is_presignal=1 is not supported when aspects!=2. "Not supported" means that this combination is not intended to be used, has not been tested, and may produce unpredictable results.

(3) I plan to make a video about this, but, briefly, is_permissive indicates that the signal works in the permissive block mode. This is a variation of either track circuit block or absolute block (and should work in the cab signalling mode also, which is very similar to track circuit block in basic operation, although it has not been tested in cab signalling). It is a real life signalling system that is used to increase line capacity. I think that it is still used on the London Underground, or, in any event, was in use there until very recently. In a permissive block system, a train that is brought to a stand at a signal at danger may proceed even though the signal is at danger provided that it travels slowly enough to stop on seeing the train ahead. This is only possible where the signal controls a section of straight, unidirectional track. In real life, there sometimes are and sometimes are not subsidiary signal arms showing a "call on" aspect allowing the train to proceed in this way. call_on=1 indicates the presence of graphics for such an aspect. See the Pak128.Britain-Ex files for examples of how to encode this graphic. It is possible to have permissive signals without a visible call on aspect: in this case, they will continue to show a danger aspect when the train passes. There are underground permissive signals that work in this way in Pak128.Britian-Ex. In Simutrans-Experimental, permissive signals will work as such only if the route to the next signal has no junctions. If there are junctions, the permissive functionality is disabled and the signal works as an ordinary stop signal. In Pak128.Britain-Ex, the signal's sighting speed is lower for these call on signals, so there is a real disadvantage in placing them where they do not work as such. Provided that the line to the next signal has no junction, the train, once it has come to a stand at the signal, will be given a call on aspect, and will be able to proceed in drive by sight mode. This allows multiple trains to enter a section, which might be useful in busy goods loops, for instance, or low speed high density urban passenger lines. Choose signals cannot be permissive signals, as it is assumed that there will be junctions ahead. Note, however, that it is planned in future for signals that are not defined as permissive to have call on aspects to deal with light engine movements and splitting and combining trains; this is a significant new set of features, however, and has not been implemented yet.

(4) Cab signalling and moving block do not require compatible trains. It would be difficult to handle the situation where a non-compatible train is sent down the line, and, in any event, it is common to have portable equipment that can be carried by non-compatible trains (even steam trains use this equipment when they run special enthusiasts' trains on lines with cab signalling, which strongly suggests that there is really no such thing as an incompatible train).

***

Ves,

thank you! Do let me know if you have any questions. If you would like to help with the documentation, it would be much appreciated. Thank you again!

Generally, very best wishes with the Swedish pakest project - it is excellent to see a new pakset for Experimental being created. Do let me know if you have any queries about how to make Swedish style signalling work in Experimental.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 20, 2015, 11:16:36 PM
Wow, I was speculating what this "permissive" would do to the signal, now I understand! The three green steady lights would mean that the route is shortened (possibly by other rail vehicles or going sideways in a junction) but i dont know of any practice in Sweden where eg underground trains may use such signaling routinely. Worth investigating!

Quote
Do let me know if you have any queries about how to make Swedish style signalling work in Experimental.
I havent got into very deep detail for most of the old signal systems, but I do know something of the very first one which differs a bit from normal signaling:

To protect a station, a T-semaphore was used. It was usually placed directly in front of the station building, showing trains at the edge of the station if they are allowed to enter the station. The signal was bidirectional with one wing for each direction and the driver was supposed to look at the lefthand wing. When the signal is in stop position for both directions, the signal looks like a "T".
It had three aspects:

horisontal = stop
pointing 45* downwards = caution
vertical downwards = clear (very seldom used and later removed)

When the train approach the station area, the driver would look after this signal and, if it showed stop, he had to wait with the train outside the furtherst junction or at a special sign.
The signals where all local operated.

When the train leaves the station, Im not sure, but I think a "flagman" would show up and let the train continue.

Pictures in this link:http://ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html (http://ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html)

I dont know if this system would be doable or preferable for Simutrans. It would be fun to see, although its more like eyecandy and there is a danger that it would just overcomplicate things.
There also exist another signal used in a more normal way (train stops in front of signal).


Regarding signal boxes, would you consider to let station buildings or platform tiles (or any other building for that sake) behave as signal boxes?

I would love to help with some documentation. After all, I anyway need to dig in to understand and code dat-files.
Obviously, I need to learn the parameters first in order to later describe them :-P
How would you suggest?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 21, 2015, 10:19:43 AM
That is interesting - thank you for that description. Firstly, to answer your question about the documentation, what would be particularly helpful is if you could put what I have written above in the same format as the .dat reference addendum documentation in this (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2112.0) post, which is currently up to date only as at 11.35.

As to the T-semaphore, that is quite unusual in your description. Was it functionally different, or was it just a signal that was in one place and intended to be read in and to apply to another place visible from the first place to save on installation costs? How significant was this system of signalling? This might be a little tricky to implement, as one would have to have the train look ahead in its route, find the T-signal, then work backwards to a specifically linked sign to determine where to stop, and that functionality is quite different in type to the functionality currently implemented. One might conceivably partly simulate this visually by having a signalbox graphic with the T-signal built in and the actual signals being the stop boards, but this would not, of course, allow for the T-signal to operate visually.

As to signalboxes being built into stations, this would be quite fiddly to achieve in the code; is this a significant thing? It is possible to place a signalbox immediately behind a platform, for example.

Incidentally, I have realised that one thing that I missed from my earlier post about parameters is that signals now have a "maintenance" parameter, which works in the same way as that parameter does for ways. This is not available in Standard or earlier versions of Experimental, as signals had no maintenance cost.
Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 21, 2015, 11:13:10 AM
Edit: bah, hitted save button accidentally....

 
As to the T-semaphore, that is quite unusual in your description. Was it functionally different, or was it just a signal that was in one place and intended to be read in and to apply to another place visible from the first place to save on installation costs?
As I have understood, the second of your statements is true. So it was not functionally different, just a practical solution.
The guard could just walk out from the station building out on the platform and shift the signal instead of walking the entire way (or hiring another guy) to operate a signal at the entry of the station. There where no wire mechanism at that time.

Quote
How significant was this system of signalling?
I have the impression that almost all stations have used this method for quite some time. From the very beginning, late 1850'ies during decades. The last remaining signal, where operated until 1960'ies or something. I think that was to protect a little siding or something similar.

Quote
This might be a little tricky......
Yes it might :-)
I think the keyword would be automation. A way to do it could be to code signs as signals for the player to put which would act as a normal signal/choose signal. Some graphical representation on either the station tile or on a platform would make up the signal itself.
The deluxe version would be that whenever a platform, a station house/signal box and such a sign is built, the signal would be automatically placed by the game on the tile in front of the station house/signal box or at the center of one of the platforms.

Quote
As to signalboxes being built into stations,
Well somehow it depends on how you foresee players to build their stations. In the old days, maybe it would be a staff member of the station that sends a guy out in the cold to operate the signals on that station.

Quote
"maintenance" parameter
Great! I will look into it :-)


Edit: In the signals.dat you linked, what is the entry "free_route=1"? Is that what makes it a choose signal?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 21, 2015, 11:38:05 PM
Yes, free_route=1 refers to a choose signal: this is the same as in Standard, so I did not document it above.

Having a signal in one place and the graphical representation of it in another place is I am afraid totally alien to the code as it exists at present and would require a total rewrite. Having a T signal as a separate specific signal would be easier than this, but I am struggling to find a way to fit even this into the existing system without great upheaval.

Interestingly, though, the concept of a T signal might explain the curious signal that appears at Tan-y-Bwlch station on the Ffestiniog Railway in Wales (a preserved narrow gauge line) here:

(http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/84/48/1844848_9025f1f9.jpg)

The signal is now disused and preserved for posterity, the actual signalling being done by colour light signals. The line is single track and fairly lightly used and Tan-y-Bwlch is a passing place. I think that the Ffestiniog had somewhat unusual signalling arrangements in its early days, which might explain this.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 22, 2015, 02:43:02 PM
Ok i see there might be a problem there. Maybe once in the future! :-)

Yes that definitely looks similar to what I found on Swedish websites. I don't know where this kind of signaling where invented, I would imagine England or Germany. The station looks little like a model train station with the strange camera angle and the narrow tracks! :-)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 22, 2015, 09:25:12 PM
It is rather lovely. I went there a few years ago: it is very peaceful and the scenery is quite pleasant.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on October 25, 2015, 11:29:46 AM
That would be great to have some references! Also eventually to all other cool stuff you implemented :-)
Vladki, do you have access to the github? Can you "do" stuff there?

Hi, my git access seems to work. I'm now trying to play with the new signalling. I would like to implement the modern circuit-block/in-cab signalling, with the current graphics for light signals (white rim, black background). The signals would be:
- 2-aspect signal = 2 lights (red, green)
- 2-aspect presignal = 3-lights (green, white) - should be blinking
- 3-aspect signal = 4 lights (red, 2x green - caution, green+white - clear) - the bottom light should be blinking, but we cannot do that now. Any ideas how to distinguish them?
- 3-aspect choose signal = 5 lights (red, green+white - clear without choose, 2x green - clear with choose (non-bilnk) / caution without choose (blink), 3x green - caution with choose)

maybe also:
- 2-aspect choose signal = 3 lights (red, green (without choose) , 2x green (with choose))

Similar aspects could be for absolute block signals (semaphore and light signals), just without the 3-aspect 4-light signal. And 3-aspect choose signal would show clear with one green light/arm.

Dwarf signals as they were plus one more for end-of-signalling with diagonally placed lights

Do you have some evidence about using token block signalling in sweden and the related signals?

BTW James, I have a lot of questions about the new signalling. Where is the proper place to discuss it?

Well I have to get the questions and comments out of my mind.
<long stuff here>

I cannot resist comparing british and czecho-slovak (or even austro-hungarian and neighboring) signaling.

- permissive signals - we have those - modern circuit block signals on plain track that have the pole painted white are permissive. Those with red/white striped pole are absolute. But I think the reasoning behind was not to improve throughput, but to avoid blocking the whole line if one signal gets broken. At times there was a label on signals in uphill sections that allowed heavy cargo trains to pass slowly on danger without stopping (as they would struggle to start moving again.
- call on - we have a special aspect on signals within the reach of station (entry, exit) to allow trains enter the station if signalling is somehow broken, or if the train has to enter an occupied track. So this is different. There's no special aspect on perrmisive signals on plain track. It is only on otherwise absolute stop signals.

- absolute block signalling. I was looking for the closest equivalent here - it is old telephone signalling and half-automatic electromechanic signalling. The signalman had to communicate in similar way to their british colleagues:
A: I've a train for you
B: ok, let it in
A: there it goes
...
B: it passed through (complete)
and so on.
However there is one significant difference. Czech signalling distinguishes signalboxes at stations (where trains can pass each other), and intermediate boxes on plain track. This is important for operation on single, bidirectional track. The start of communication goes on between stations, with intermediates only listening and acknowledging that they have reserved their block accordingly. When the train passes the intermediate box, a next train can follow in the same direction. When there are trains for the other direction, the station signalmen have to agree on changing the direction (and wait for the track to clear of course). So I think the "blue" reservations described for circuit block, should be available for absolute block as well. However I have tried how it works, and I see that if there is only one intermediate signal box, then the whole path is reserved, which works just as expected. More then one could make deadlock, but that may be a design decision.

Another thought is about reservations. In real life all reservations go from one signal to another. If there are train stops in between (without track junctions), then the track is reserved through them. The train continues according to the last signal seen. Not in drive-by-sight. And the whole stretch of track remains reservered unitl the trains leaves the block completely. So I think that:
a) the reservation should go through any platforms and stops until the next signal
b) trains should be forbidden to turn around on platforms without signals (except for dead end tracks)
This will reduce the need for long/token-block signals on bidirectional tracks

Tokens and staff. I think there should be some indication where is the staff (in cabinet or not), or if a token can be released or not. Perhaps also if the train is in possesion of staff/token. Max_speed of staff cabinet or token box should be (almost) zero. The driver has to stop, and go for the staff/token. Also the token should be returned at box for opposite direction. After returning the token, the train should continue in drive by sight, if there is no other signal. Thus bidirections staff/token box makes sense - return one token and take another for the next section.

I think that the previously discussed T semaphores could have been used in combination with tokens/staff. While the staff/token secured the track between stations, the T semaphore (with entry signs), protected the station, allowing for shunting while there was a train on the track approaching the station. Their position and shape was IMHO just to save on installation costs and to keep is as simple as possible. Later the entry signs would be replaced by entry signals operated by wires or electricity. But the token would not be returned at the entry (choose) signal, but at the station.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 26, 2015, 12:27:12 AM
Hi, my git access seems to work. I'm now trying to play with the new signalling. I would like to implement the modern circuit-block/in-cab signalling, with the current graphics for light signals (white rim, black background). The signals would be:
- 2-aspect signal = 2 lights (red, green)
- 2-aspect presignal = 3-lights (green, white) - should be blinking
- 3-aspect signal = 4 lights (red, 2x green - caution, green+white - clear) - the bottom light should be blinking, but we cannot do that now. Any ideas how to distinguish them?
- 3-aspect choose signal = 5 lights (red, green+white - clear without choose, 2x green - clear with choose (non-bilnk) / caution without choose (blink), 3x green - caution with choose)
and
Quote
- 2-aspect choose signal = 3 lights (red, green (without choose) , 2x green (with choose))
and
Quote
Similar aspects could be for absolute block signals (semaphore and light signals), just without the 3-aspect 4-light signal. And 3-aspect choose signal would show clear with one green light/arm.
sounds reasonable.

Quote
Do you have some evidence about using token block signalling in sweden and the related signals?
Sweden have heavily relied on a system called System-M, also called TAM, that is Tåg Anmälan.
This mean that two dispatchers, one on each station on each side of a peace of railway, communicate via telegraph, later telephone, with each other and agreeing on which train to send. They then prepared the station for the approaching train, and eventually set the T-signal, or later the entry signals to accept the train.
I found it difficult to find out definitively wheter another train in the same direction where allowed to be sent before the first train had arrived to next station, but several things suggest that this is the case. Then the trains where driving with reduced speed (20kmh).

One train staff and physical tokens, where aparently very rarely used, since the system-M with telegraphing the next station on the line where quite successfull. However, it did exist briefley on some tracks, and should therefore exist in Simutrans as well I think. The signals, I think, was just normal stop/drive signals.

(References (Swedish): http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.591542/jarnvagens-signalsystem--principer-och-logik-del-1?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+idg%2FJYvw+%28IDG.se%3A+IDG.se+-+Senaste+nytt%29 (http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.591542/jarnvagens-signalsystem--principer-och-logik-del-1?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+idg%2FJYvw+%28IDG.se%3A+IDG.se+-+Senaste+nytt%29) and http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.592328/jarnvagens-signalsystem--principer-och-logik-del-2?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+idg%2FJYvw+%28IDG.se%3A+IDG.se+-+Senaste+nytt%29 (http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.592328/jarnvagens-signalsystem--principer-och-logik-del-2?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+idg%2FJYvw+%28IDG.se%3A+IDG.se+-+Senaste+nytt%29), http://www.jvmv2.se/forum/index.php?id=88831 (http://www.jvmv2.se/forum/index.php?id=88831))

If anybody reading this happens to have some knowledge (and knowledge in general about signals) you are most welcome to help clarifying!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 26, 2015, 11:50:24 PM
On the subject of T-signals, I have found an interesting reference in "The London Tilbury & Southend Railway; a history of the company and the line" (volume 2) at p. 139 suggesting that these might have been used in the U. K. at some point. The text is as follows,

"Double line sections, which always formed the majority of the LT&S system, were originally worked on time-interval. No use was made for signalling purposes of the Electric Telegraph which had been installed throughout. Each station had the usual double-armed 'Station Semaphore' with one arm for each direction, showing horizontal (red light) for stop, 45 degrees (green light) for caution, and vertical (hidden inside the slotted post) (white light) for clear."

What is not clear is whether those were signals for trains entering the station or for leaving it, and, if for entering it, where the trains would be held if not at the signal. It may be that I shall need to look more closely into the history of signalling (although I am a little reluctant to embark upon a whole slew of 1850s slotted semaphores for Pak128.Britain-Ex).

Can anyone tell me a little more about how the operation of these Swedish signals worked, and in particular where trains would stop outside the station, and how trains were signalled to leave the station?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 27, 2015, 04:01:45 PM

On the subject of T-signals, I have found an interesting reference in "The London Tilbury & Southend Railway; a history of the company and the line" (volume 2) at p. 139 suggesting that these might have been used in the U. K. at some point. The text is as follows,

"Double line sections, which always formed the majority of the LT&S system, were originally worked on time-interval. No use was made for signalling purposes of the Electric Telegraph which had been installed throughout. Each station had the usual double-armed 'Station Semaphore' with one arm for each direction, showing horizontal (red light) for stop, 45 degrees (green light) for caution, and vertical (hidden inside the slotted post) (white light) for clear."
That very much exactly describe the Swedish T-signal. Not strange, since much Swedish old railway are inspired (and imported) from England.

Quote
What is not clear is whether those were signals for trains entering the station or for leaving it, and, if for entering it, where the trains would be held if not at the signal.
Can anyone tell me a little more about how the operation of these Swedish signals worked, and in particular where trains would stop outside the station, and how trains were signalled to leave the station?

The signals where definitively for trains entering the station, and the driver was supposed to hold 100 meters outside the outermost junction.
I have read that the train gives departure whistle with the horn, only then the signalmen may change the signal status to caution and the train depart. That suggests that the signals where in fact used, possibly from behind the train driver, to deliver the message for departure. However, I haven't yet found that this definitely is the case.
There are also described hand signals to be used by signalmen, but currently Im not sure whether this is for normal train departure or just cases where there doesn't at all exist signal.
Further researching......
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on October 27, 2015, 08:47:42 PM
I think that I shall have to research the time interval method further.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on October 28, 2015, 08:31:28 AM
Finally, I found some more filling information.
http://www.ekeving.se/b/gdg/regl_mm/BJ_tjgregl_1876.pdf (http://www.ekeving.se/b/gdg/regl_mm/BJ_tjgregl_1876.pdf) page 11.
Here is described that usually departure signal was given by a signalman, holding his arm horizontal to the tracks, meaning "clear". At dark he would have a white lamp moving in circles.
If another train just has left the station in that direction, he can (at earliest five minutes after the departure of the former train) show the "caution" signal with a green flag and the train may drive with a speed limit.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 04, 2015, 07:13:33 PM
May I ask whether this is describing the absolute block or time interval method of signalling, or whether this is not clear from the text?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 04, 2015, 09:53:12 PM
May I ask whether this is describing the absolute block or time interval method of signalling, or whether this is not clear from the text?
Im not sure wether it best fit to time signal or absolute block signal. Those terms are not mentioned in that document.
As many early railways where only single track, the time interval method doesnt really work (as I have understood time interval method cant be used on bi-directional lines?).
Its maybe more like absolute block with only one train between stations, with the aditions that trains may enter an occupied block in the same direction as the first under some circumstances (eg if the former was behind schedule) with the rules earlier described.

Afaik, manual blockage of the tracks via Siemens telegraph mashines where used. The telegraph has been used since the beginning to protect singletrack (bi-directional) and doubletrack.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 04, 2015, 10:01:43 PM
Ahh, I see - a token block system?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 04, 2015, 10:18:04 PM
Well, yes but without any physical objects. I tried to describe the "System M" earlier, but that might have been quite unclear. Hee.. I barely understand myself what I wrote.... :-)
Would you like me to try to elaborate how it works, or do you know how now?

Incidentally, are you considering T-signaling?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 04, 2015, 10:24:12 PM
I am looking into "station signals" as part of time interval signalling (which is why I asked about that); I am waiting to hear back from somebody at the Signal Record Society who has told me that he will provide me with some more information as to the working of time interval signals at junctions and stations presently (the current implementation in the code I do not think deals with stations and junctions correctly).

When you refer to working "without any physical objects", are you referring to something similar to "tokenless block (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_block_system#Tokenless_Block)"; were the signals interlocked with the telegraph to prevent more than one train entering the single line section in opposite directions?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 04, 2015, 10:31:52 PM
Quote
When you refer to working "without any physical objects", are you referring to something similar to "tokenless block"; were the signals interlocked with the telegraph to prevent more than one train entering the single line section in opposite directions?
As far as I have understood it, the interlocking was a human with the key to the signals. In theory, a station chief could wrongly send a train (and set points and signals to be clear) in the head direction of an approaching train. The "interlocking" is the telegram he got from the machine.

Quote
I am looking into "station signals" as part of time interval signalling (which is why I asked about that); I am waiting to hear back from somebody at the Signal Record Society who has told me that he will provide me with some more information as to the working of time interval signals at junctions and stations presently (the current implementation in the code I do not think deals with stations and junctions correctly).
Interresting with station signals! Are they supposed to be placed like the T-semaphore or what kind of logic will they have?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 04, 2015, 11:17:54 PM
As far as I have understood it, the interlocking was a human with the key to the signals. In theory, a station chief could wrongly send a train (and set points and signals to be clear) in the head direction of an approaching train. The "interlocking" is the telegram he got from the machine.

Interesting, although in practice for Simutrans purposes this may make little difference from standard token block operation. (Does the token block working method seem to behave correctly for this situation with the exception of the details of T-signal working?)

Quote
Interresting with station signals! Are they supposed to be placed like the T-semaphore or what kind of logic will they have?

I have yet to complete my research on this, and am waiting for Mr. Stirling to reply with his information on the early workings of time interval signalling.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 05, 2015, 12:10:20 AM
After I played around with it in Simutrans, I think it would work. With the exception that they should not have to stop outside the signal (to collect the token). Maybe an option in the datfile virtual_tokens=1 or something similar to make different of a token machine (generating physical tokens) and just "token type" of signalling?
Thought could be given if the possibilities to drive, even if there is a train on the line heading the same direction, should be added.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 05, 2015, 12:42:45 AM
The not stopping at the signal to collect the token would not be too hard, but allowing a train to proceed in the same direction would be so different to how token block signalling operates that it would require a whole new working method (the verification that there is no train coming in the opposite direction would require a directional reservation, not used with token block signalling at present). Also, sending multiple trains in the same direction: were there signals along the track, or was this in effect permissive or even time interval working in this respect? How early were these signals, with the block telegraph instruments, in use? Also, do you know whether these signals were normal clear or normal danger?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 05, 2015, 01:10:02 AM
Quote
Also, sending multiple trains in the same direction: were there signals along the track, or was this in effect permissive or even time interval working in this respect? How early were these signals, with the block telegraph instruments, in use?
As I know, there where no signals along the track, except with remote sidings, protect streetcrossings etc.
I guess its a kind of unintended time interval working (trains where not supposed to go before previous train had arrived to next station). From the very beginning, they used telegraph (Sweden started around 1858 with railways) I read somewhere.
The signals themself where the T-semaphore, and a kind of plate-signal (like your vane signal-graphics), later more kinds of semaphores.

first at 1920's automatic blocking of lines where used
http://www.ekeving.se/lb/aut/ (http://www.ekeving.se/lb/aut/)

Quote
Also, do you know whether these signals were normal clear or normal danger?
All signals where, to my knowing, normally showing danger  (except some signals which we do not aim for in Simutrans)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 05, 2015, 11:46:10 AM
Interesting. May I ask how it was known that the train had reached the next station, and whether the next station was always one with a passing place (in which case, this is just token block and there is no question of sending multiple trains down a block section at once) or whether this could include just a single track halt with a signal (in which case, this gets more interesting, but could possibly just be represented in Simutrans by 2 aspect track circuit block signals, albeit with some adaptation for the T-signal form discussed)?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 05, 2015, 09:22:38 PM
The receiving station would call back and tell that the train had arrived.
First by telegraph codes (machine by Siemens)
later by normal phone.

As I have understood, all halts had two tracks or more. Otherwise, I think such a station would be considered as "ungarded", which means the dispatchers at each side of that station would be communicating to each other (dispatchers sitting in "guarded" stations), instead of the singletrack'ed "station", however im not sure.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 05, 2015, 10:29:02 PM
Hmm - so is this not identical to token block working as far as Simutrans is concerned, except for the T-signals? I am having trouble reconciling what you wrote about sending two trains down the line in the same direction with what you also write about a train having to have arrived at the next station (which would also be a passing place) before the next train could be sent.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 06, 2015, 03:46:08 PM
I gues you are right that it more or less is identical to token block signaling between stations.

Reason a train could be sent down a line before the former train had arrived to the next station is, if either the former train was behind the schedule, or this train is an "extra train" (meaning its not figuring on the time schedule).

I do think that they planned their time schedules so no train had to be sent before the former had arrived to the next station. However, when delays occured or there where this "extra train", this could be done in order to prevent further delayment of the schedule.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Junna on November 06, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
I gues you are right that it more or less is identical to token block signaling between stations.

Reason a train could be sent down a line before the former train had arrived to the next station is, if either the former train was behind the schedule, or this train is an "extra train" (meaning its not figuring on the time schedule).

I do think that they planned their time schedules so no train had to be sent before the former had arrived to the next station. However, when delays occured or there where this "extra train", this could be done in order to prevent further delayment of the schedule.

Two trains going the same way would generally be done using a manual time-interval set-up where a certain number of minutes had to have lapsed before the second would be permitted to go, and it required that the next station have a certain ability to handle it. I don't think this was done often, nor is it feasible to do it in Simutrans (certainly without signals) as it would just end up for more opportunity for things to get stuck.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 07, 2015, 12:29:30 PM
I could agree that the function to send more trains in the same direction might be too complicated for simutrans.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on November 17, 2015, 11:50:41 PM
I was trying to assemble all the bits here to what would be feasible to do. I have this proposal:

Early signalling for double track - time interval - 1858-1877 ?
Normal signal - a man with blue hat and flag (red-green-white)
Choose signal - (half of) T semaphore with 3-aspects, no choose aspect.

Early signalling for single track - token block - 1858-19xx ?
Normal signal - a man with red hat and flag (red-green)
Choose signal - (half of) T semaphore with 2-aspects, no choose aspect.

Classic lower quadrant signals - absolute block (may be automatic upgrade from time interval ?) - 1877 - 1907
Normal signal - one arm
Choose signal - two arms
Distant signal - none

Classic upper quadrant signals - absolute block (automatic upgrade from lower quadrant) - 1907 - 1947 (?)
Normal signal - one arm
Choose signal - two arms
Distant signal - green disc
Optionally Combined signal - three arms: signal (upper arm) + presignal (middle arm) + choose aspect (lower arm)
This will make a possibility for new aspect: top and bottom arms at 45° and middle arm vertical, meaning go clear for alt route: 40 + clear. Introduction of distant and combined signal may be different, I just put them here for consistency. Distant signal is at least from 1913: http://www.ekeving.se/b/swb/regl_mm/TjgrEJ_1879-1913.pdf

Color light signals - circuit block, default danger, non permissive, max speed 80 km/h - 1920(?)-now
Normal signal - two lights
Choose signal - three lights
Distant signal - three lights (lower green not used)
Optionally Combined signal - five lights (white not used) - same aspects as upper quadrant combined signal

ATC signals - cab signalling, default clear, non permissive (?), max speed 200 km/h  - 1960/1980(?) - now
Normal signal - 4 lights (3-aspect)
Choose signal - 5 lights (3-aspects+choose) - clear + choose  could be shown as green+white+green to distinguish this signal from combined choose signal above. Top two lights would be always the main signal (green/red), 3rd and 4th presignal (green/white) and bottom light always the choose aspect (green/none).

Do you have any idea what sign could be used for early drive-by-sight signal?
What sign is usual on gates over railway (gates of depot and such) ?

I found something about T-semaphores here: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/sweden/signals.htm
They say they were working in the same way as in UK.

Also here is quite some info - but in swedish. Maybe you could use it to improve my guesses. http://www.ekeving.se/
Could you find more about the signal on the left picture here: http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/index.html?
It is also at 1877 section here: http://www.ekeving.se/hi/sj-regl-1858.html
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 18, 2015, 12:12:53 AM
Thank you very much for the link to the article in English on the Swedish signals: that is very useful, especially this part,

Quote
As with early British signals, any driver approaching such a signal showing danger would be expected to bring his train to a stand before any points, rather than stop at the signal itself.

This resolves one specific part of the puzzle of how to implement such signals: the train would have to stop one tile before the last set of points before the signal. There are other difficulties with this type of signal that will have to be considered carefully before I decide whether I am able to implement it. I shall in any event have to do some more research into time interval signals, the operation of which at stations and junctions are difficult to pin down. If there is anything in the Swedish documents that assists with how this worked in Sweden, a translation/summary would be very helpful, as one can reasonably infer that it was very similar there to here (and in any event, the code would be useful for the Swedish pakset).

Incidentally, having signals of one working method automatically upgrade to those of another working method will not work: the player may well end up with signals of a mixed type on the same line connected to an incompatible signalbox. Further, if you allow time interval signals without a signalbox, and then have them upgrading to absolute block signals (which cannot function in the game without a signalbox), things are liable to go very wrong. I should probably simply not allow upgrading to signals of a different working method at all in the code to prevent this sort of thing happening. May I suggest that somebody amends the reference post relating to signal parameters to reflect this?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 18, 2015, 10:38:52 PM
Ok, I have read alot about signals these last days, so I have summarized underneath what I found.

Quote
Could you find more about the signal on the left picture here: http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/index.html?
That is a so called "plate signal" in the lack of a better translation. I have made a shortshort description underneath

Quote
Do you have any idea what sign could be used for early drive-by-sight signal?
Maybe fig. 17 (Grön bansignaltavla och dess placering)  on this link: http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html (http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html)?
The "one way sign" could be fig. 10 (Spårspärrskärm) on that link?
"End of choose" could be fig. fig.9 b2.

Quote
What sign is usual on gates over railway (gates of depot and such) ?
I dont understand which sign you mean.

Firstly some comments:
Combined signal was to my knowledge never used with semaphores. First with track circuit blocks, a signal could show the state of the next signal.
The maxspeed should be quite higher than 80kmh for the pre ATC signals, like 160kmh as its in pakbritain.
Time interval I nowhere found where ever used (only in the exceptions I have descibed in earlier posts), so I think that this working method should not be used.
Token block was also only very very rarely used and therefore I think should not be included. Although the one train staff also where very rarely used, I think that could be very usefull in Simutrans.

The telegraph has been used since the beginning, using a system called Tam which best describe as both absolute block signaling and later track circuit. Everywhere I read, Tam is what has been used. Therefore I think the working methods of Pak.Sweden should be:
Absolute block
Track circuit block
one train staff (very handy)
cab signal
Moving block


I have some corrections which I will try to explain via the underneath timeline:

-------


*Dawn of railways* Communication station to station via telegraph (absolute block)
All signals has to be set manually = signalboxes have very short range
*Dawn of railways* Signalman with flags (stop/clear, maybe also a choose version (with no aditional choosegraphics))

1858 T-semaphore (stop/clear, maybe also a choose version (with no aditional choosegraphics))
1858 Platesignal (stop/clear, maybe also a choose version (with no aditional choosegraphics))
Semaphores where mainly signalling wether a train where allowed to enter the station.
When they wasnt a T-semaphore, they where placed around 50 meters outside the furthermost point.
Platesignals where painted red and only facing one direction, and could (instead of a semaphore) be placed on either side of a station (outside the furtherst point).
T-Signal meanings:
Left wing horizontal: Stop
Left wing pointing down: Drive
Both wings pointing down: Points are locked to main track and is "ungarded" (mostly used when the station is closed)
Also, the left wing could hang vertically down which would mean Drive and proceed, however that was seldom used at stations (and was not allowed on tracks with junctions)

Platesignal meanings:
Red plate facing approaching train: Stop
Turned along the track: Drive

1880 Presignals (clear/caution)
A green plate facing the train would mean caution, no green plate would mean clear.

1888 "Hävstångsställverk" (absolute block)
1890 "Ställbock" and "Vevställverk" (absolute block)
All three are mechanical signalboxes of different types and sizes.
"Ställbock" is a very small signal"box", or rather a switchgear, often bolted to a wall or where standing directly on the platform. Usually only manouver a couple of points and signals.
"Vevställverk" is a signalbox where the mechanism to change tracks and signals where based on wheels. Length up to 350 meter
"Hävstångsställverk" is a signalbox that uses big arms to change the states of signals and tracks. Length up to 550 meters

1890 Twowinged semaphore (choose signal: stop/clear-main/clear-div)
The two winged semaphore had the logic that when the upper wing alone pointing 45 degres down, the train will enter the main track. If both wings are pointing 45 degres down, then the train will enter a sidetrack on the station.

1906 All semaphores now points upwards

1907 Threewinged semaphore (choose: stop/clear-main/clear-div)
When clearance is given with three wings, it means sidetrack/shorted track. This signal could in principle replace the twowinged semaphore.
Later, when Simutrans trains can reassemble, three wings would be the "call on" aspect.

1910 Electric Signalbox (absolute block)
Could manouver signals at mutch bigger distance, however only signals inside his sighting distance. When track circuit blocks becomes available, the distance could be much higher.

1910 Presignals can alert for more wings on the forthcoming signal (clear/caution/(cant be simulated now, but caution for sideway))
By adding a wing to the presignal, it could alert the traindriver if the main signal to the station would send him to main track or side track

1920 Track Circuit Block
1920 Electric Signalbox (extended range, track circuit block))
1920 Track circuit block signals (stop/clear/caution)
These first track circuit block signals had these states:
Red solid light = stop
Blinking green = caution
Green solid light = clear
(http://www.ekeving.se/lb/aut/index.html (http://www.ekeving.se/lb/aut/index.html))

1922 Modern signals
two light: stop/clear (solid-red/solid-green)
three light: Choose signal: stop/clear (solid-red/2xsolid-green)
four light: Stop/clear/caution (solid-red/solid-green+blinking-white/solid-green+blinking-green)
five light: Choose signal: Stop/clear-main/clear-div/caution-main/caution-div (solid-red/solid-green+blinking-white/2xsolid-green/solid-green+blinking-green/3xsolid-green)
When Simutrans trains may reassemble, the 3xsolid-green should become the "Call On" aspect.
presignal, two lights: clear/caution (blinking-white/blinking-green)
An optional permissive signal could be:
Five light: three aspect permissive signal: Stop/clear/caution/Callon (solid-red/solid-green+blinking-white/solid-green+blinking-green/3xsolid-green)
Do note that some of the very early modern signals could have some variations (eg yellow light, signalling the caution for sideway) but I find it very dificult to find good documentation

1930 Modern presignals get an extern yellow lamp to alert for sideway entry (clear/caution/(cant be simulated now, but caution for sideway))

1975 Modern presignals get three lights
A green light are added to the signal itself (now has two green and one white), removing the yellow "caution for sideway" lamp.
States:
clear/caution/(cant be simulated now, but caution for sideway))


1980 ATC (cabsignalling)
As track circuit signals but speed limit is now raized to 250kmh
All signals should have a yellow plate between the rails (like on pictures of this google search: https://www.google.dk/search?q=atc+baliser&espv=2&biw=1786&bih=901&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIo6uDpYSbyQIVARUsCh2QwAW2 (https://www.google.dk/search?q=atc+baliser&espv=2&biw=1786&bih=901&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIo6uDpYSbyQIVARUsCh2QwAW2)

2010 ERTMS (Level 2)
No signals needed

Future ERTMS (Level 3)
No signals needed
------

Questions:
As to the five aspect choose signal I have a question: will the "Clear-main" be showed also when the train is stopping at the station, or is there a way to make this state only show when when the train drive through the station (using the main route)?
Regarding the 3 light choose signal, is that needed along with the 5 light choose signal?
Will there be implemented a signaltype that works as a T-signal?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 18, 2015, 11:52:31 PM
That is a splendidly comprehensive description - I shall look forward to seeing this emerge. It is excellent to see people making signalling systems for other paksets.


...

Questions:
As to the five aspect choose signal I have a question: will the "Clear-main" be showed also when the train is stopping at the station, or is there a way to make this state only show when when the train drive through the station (using the main route)?

In the current implementation, clear-main is shown when a train is stopping at its designated platform, or passing through on its designated route. I am considering changing this as requested in another thread to show only in the latter case, and to show caution-main in the former case.
Quote
Regarding the 3 light choose signal, is that needed along with the 5 light choose signal?

Is this a question to me about the code, or to another Pak128.Sweden contributor about what signals that you need to make? If the former, I am afraid that I do not understand. If the latter, my apologies for possibly confusing it with the former.

Quote
Will there be implemented a signaltype that works as a T-signal?

I have been giving this some careful consideration and am still not decided. This would be quite tricky to implement: it would require a signal being assigned to a station, and then facing in one direction but nonetheless controlling the movement of trains in both directions (or in theory all four directions if a station was a + shape, which is possible in principle), add code for that single signal to govern all departures from a station independently in each direction (for time interval, which is the method in which that signal was used in the UK, storing independently for each of the possible four directions the time at which the train left), and cause the trains to stop at the right point outside the station rather than, as at present, immediately beside the signal, on the same tile as it. Further, logic would have to allow it to control both entry to and exit from the station and to know in each case which it is doing. This is all made much more difficult by the way in which signalling is implemented, in which trains try to reserve tiles ahead on their route one by one, and, when they reach a signal, engage complex logic as to both whether and to where the train may then proceed from where it is now, and what the state of that signal should be. As may be appreciated, this system is particularly difficult to implement with signals controlling multiple tracks at the same time. I have still not worked out a clear idea of how this all could be implemented in the code, nor do I even understand how the real signals worked to a full level of detail.
Title: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 19, 2015, 12:33:17 AM
Quote
In the current implementation, clear-main is shown when a train is stopping at its designated platform, or passing through on its designated route. I am considering changing this as requested in another thread to show only in the latter case, and to show caution-main in the former case.
I would very much support that change! Maybe make it optional?

Quote
Is this a question to me about the code, or to another Pak128.Sweden contributor about what signals that you need to make? If the former, I am afraid that I do not understand. If the latter, my apologies for possibly confusing it with the former.
haha, I think that was a general question to wether it really would be necesary for a pakset to have two choose signals. "Why would one place the one over the other" would be my question, and Im kind of struggling to find an answer to that :-)

Quote
I have been giving this some careful consideration and am still not decided. This would be quite tricky to implement: it would require a signal being assigned to a station, and then facing in one direction but nonetheless controlling the movement of trains in both directions (or in theory all four directions if a station was a + shape, which is possible in principle), add code for that single signal to govern all departures from a station independently in each direction (for time interval, which is the method in which that signal was used in the UK, storing independently for each of the possible four directions the time at which the train left), and cause the trains to stop at the right point outside the station rather than, as at present, immediately beside the signal, on the same tile as it. Further, logic would have to allow it to control both entry to and exit from the station and to know in each case which it is doing. This is all made much more difficult by the way in which signalling is implemented, in which trains try to reserve tiles ahead on their route one by one, and, when they reach a signal, engage complex logic as to both whether and to where the train may then proceed from where it is now, and what the state of that signal should be. As may be appreciated, this system is particularly difficult to implement with signals controlling multiple tracks at the same time. I have still not worked out a clear idea of how this all could be implemented in the code, nor do I even understand how the real signals worked to a full level of detail.
Great, Im really looking forward to see the results (if it comes that far!) of this :-)
If I may throw in a proposal:
In reallity, all the points at that time where not necesarily securily locked. If you add a BIG speed penalty for "ungarded" points (simulating that the train driver would have to stop the train, run forward and check wether the point is set and the track is clear, then run back again), then a T-signal could "guard" all points in a specified radius (removing the speed limit)? Normal signals (in pre track circuit blocks) would also guard signals behind the signal in a certain distance, and when track circuit blocks become available, all points behind the signal up to next signal (unlimited distance) are considered guarded.
If the line is branching between two stations, a signalbox and a T-signal could be placed and that junction is considered guarded in all directions. Routes would always be booked THROUGH the T-signal, never up and until the T-signal.
Regarding multifacing T-signals: Scroll down on this page: http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html (http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html) it shows for 4 directions!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on November 19, 2015, 12:52:52 AM
I would very much support that change! Maybe make it optional?

Whether an aspect less restrictive than caution is shown will have to depend on whether an onward reservation (i.e., beyond the station) is made. It may be that this can be made optional in the parameterisation of schedules which is the next phase of works after signalling, but I am not quite sure how this might work at this stage and how to prevent there being excessive options cluttering the GUI.

Quote
haha, I think that was a general question to wether it really would be necesary for a pakset to have two choose signals. "Why would one place the one over the other" would be my question, and Im kind of struggling to find an answer to that :-)

One good answer might be that the five aspect one might be considerably more expensive than the three aspect one, both to purchase and to maintain.

Quote
Great, Im really looking forward to see the results (if it comes that far!) of this :-)
If I may throw in a proposal:
In reallity, all the points at that time where not necesarily securily locked. If you add a BIG speed penalty for "ungarded" points (simulating that the train driver would have to stop the train, run forward and check wether the point is set and the track is clear, then run back again), then a T-signal could "guard" all points in a specified radius? Normal signals (in pre track circuit blocks) would also guard signals behind the signal in a certain distance, and when track circuit blocks become available, all points behind the signal up to next signal (unlimited distance) are considered guarded.

Adding a speed penalty would not simulate truly manually operated points; one would actually have to simulate the train stopping then proceeding again. One would then have to find a way of dealing with multiple trains approaching the points at the same time to determine which train gets priority (which would involve deciding whether a reservation is used, and, if so, how far that that reservation should go (if too far, it might as well be absolute block, which rather defeats the object of these early systems), and then deal somehow with multiple sets of points so as to avoid deadlocks. This would actually become very complex indeed, and it is not clear whether any of this would represent real working practice.

Quote
If the line is branching between two stations, a signalbox and a T-signal could be placed and that junction is considered guarded in all directions. Routes would always be booked THROUGH the T-signal, never up and until the T-signal.

I am not quite sure what this would actually entail. Most particularly, it would be very hard for code to be written to determine precisely what tiles constitute a single junction and which tiles are outside that junction (it is this (http://xkcd.com/1425/) kind of problem).

Quote
Regarding multifacing T-signals: Scroll down on this page: http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html (http://www.ekeving.se/si/mek/T-sem/T-sem.html) it shows for 4 directions!

Interesting! That at least shows an historical precedent for them, but does not make them any easier to code...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on November 20, 2015, 12:43:38 AM
Maybe fig. 17 (Grön bansignaltavla och dess placering)  on this link: http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html (http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html)?
The "one way sign" could be fig. 10 (Spårspärrskärm) on that link?
"End of choose" could be fig. fig.9 b2.
I have already used these:
- one way sign - red sign (fig 14/15) or dwarf signal at 11a
- end of choose - green sign (fig 17/18) or dwarf signal at 11b
- end of signalling - dwarf signal at 11c - no sign yet.
if I understand correctly, 9b is just 9a turned by 90°. I would prefer something more like a sign.


By railway gate I mean a gate that is used e.g. when track enters factory grounds surrounded by wall or fence. I have made such a gate for pak128.CS here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9551.msg102556#msg102556
Real life version: http://www.vlakregion.cz/trate/041/vlecky/sadova/sadova_vlecky_13.jpg

The blue diamond on those pictures is a Czechoslovak railway sign meaning "shunting forbidden" and is placed where movements are physically impossible - fixed version on dead end or closed gate, changeable version on derailers, turntables. Old mechanic shunting semaphore was also a blue diamond (otherwise similar to mechanical presignal - it turned upwards when cleared).

So, which sign is the swedish equivalent for this blue diamond? I guess fig 9a, 10 or 12.

Quote
Firstly some comments:
Combined signal was to my knowledge never used with semaphores. First with track circuit blocks, a signal could show the state of the next signal.
in that case I would just make the choose signal with two arms, and the 3-armed semaphore will not be used at all

Quote
The maxspeed should be quite higher than 80kmh for the pre ATC signals, like 160kmh as its in pakbritain.
Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_railway_signalling they write, that the max is 80 km/h without ATC.
Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Sweden they write, that current max with ATC is 200 km/h

Quote
I have some corrections which I will try to explain via the underneath timeline:

Some of the dates are in contradiction with your earlier post
- presignals
- two/three arm semaphores

Do you have some reference, which is correct?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 20, 2015, 02:10:38 PM

I have already used these:
- one way sign - red sign (fig 14/15) or dwarf signal at 11a
- end of choose - green sign (fig 17/18) or dwarf signal at 11b
- end of signalling - dwarf signal at 11c - no sign yet.
if I understand correctly, 9b is just 9a turned by 90°. I would prefer something more like a sign.
I interpret them all as signs, 9a has a light inside the sign, 9b1 also has a light (unclear if the light is inside or in front) and 9b2 is a normal sign with no light. Fig 10 is also just a sign, just a different shape (but with the same meaning).

Quote
By railway gate I mean a gate that is used e.g. when track enters factory grounds surrounded by wall or fence. I have made such a gate for pak128.CS here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9551.msg102556#msg102556
Real life version: http://www.vlakregion.cz/trate/041/vlecky/sadova/sadova_vlecky_13.jpg
I don't think they look much different in Sweden than any other place. I really like the look of your pak.cs "fences" over the track, and I think they would be perfect if you just remove the diamond!
Quote
The blue diamond on those pictures is a Czechoslovak railway sign meaning "shunting forbidden" and is placed where movements are physically impossible - fixed version on dead end or closed gate, changeable version on derailers, turntables. Old mechanic shunting semaphore was also a blue diamond (otherwise similar to mechanical presignal - it turned upwards when cleared).

So, which sign is the swedish equivalent for this blue diamond? I guess fig 9a, 10 or 12.
Yes it's some of those signs (fig that would achieve the same. Except, fig 12, which means stop for all electric vehicles (because the catenary stops)
Quote
in that case I would just make the choose signal with two arms, and the 3-armed semaphore will not be used at all
Ok, then save the 3 armed semaphore for the call on aspect when to reassemble trains! :-)
Quote
Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_railway_signalling they write, that the max is 80 km/h without ATC.
Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Sweden they write, that current max with ATC is 200 km/h
Well you could say there is a 'before ATC ' and an 'after ATC'. Before ATC, the single green light just meant clear without any speed restriction, as speed restrictions where given on signs along the tracks. After ATC, all trains NOT equipped with ATC got this speed limit of 80 kmh on ATC equipped lines. On lines without ATC, the speed signs along the track still gives the speeds (also over 80kmh) to all types of trains. Since equipping a loco with ATC is not implemented in simutrans, there is no point in simulating that.

Apparently the Wikipedia articles about Swedish ATC diverge a bit. On the Swedish Wikipedia, it says that ATC is designed to 250kmh, although the safety regulations from the government only allows 200kmh.
Quote
Some of the dates are in contradiction with your earlier post
- presignals
- two/three arm semaphores

Do you have some reference, which is correct?
I'm sorry that I'm contradicting myself. The dates from the latest post should be the one that is most correct as I have picked information from that Swedish ekeving-site that I find quite thrustworty.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on November 30, 2015, 08:26:20 PM
Railway Gate added to SVN
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 30, 2015, 09:44:37 PM
Railway Gate added to SVN
Sorry if I have missed something, but are there a SVN-server? I could not find anything on either the Github or your webpage..
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on November 30, 2015, 10:16:54 PM
sorry I meant GIT. I was using SVN for a while and got confused...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on November 30, 2015, 10:37:11 PM
Im supposing you mean github? Did you syncronize also, I cannot find it in the Github repository (latest commit nov 18)..?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on November 30, 2015, 11:56:53 PM
How about now. I still have problems with git/svn commands. svn commit and git commint is not the same...

Btw, is there any way to distinguish ATC signals from non-ATC other than balises? I would prefer some sign on signal pole, to keep the possibility to show signals on right. What about 3.1 or 3.2 from http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/globalassets/global/publikationer/jarnvag/jtf/3h_signaler_systemh_webb.pdf

What about using signal 5.4 for end of choose, and "Grön bansignaltavla" for end of signalling?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on December 01, 2015, 12:26:13 AM
Quote
What about using signal 5.4 for end of choose, and "Grön bansignaltavla" for end of signalling
signal 5.4 (page 39) would be excelent for end of choose.
"Grön Bansignaltavla" (fig. 17 from http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html) is also fine as end of signalling.

As far as I know, there are no ways to differ an "ATC-"signal from a normal signal, other than the ballisers. I know there are signs for when the train enters and exits an ATC-line, and those signs along with other "ATC-signs" are at page 96 ("ATC börjar" and "ATC slutar"). However, I think it would be fine to use the triangle or the diamond you suggested.

This makes me remembering that normally on an "infartssignal" (=choose signal), there is a little yellow square sign telling wich station is ahead (page 17, sign with "HOA A1/2"). Would this be suitable to distinguish that this is a choose signal?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on December 01, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
signal 5.4 (page 39) would be excelent for end of choose.
I was thinking also about sign at page 81 or 27 (2.1), just because it would be easy to do. But I have no idea what they mean.

Quote
As far as I know, there are no ways to differ an "ATC-"signal from a normal signal, other than the ballisers. I know there are signs for when the train enters and exits an ATC-line, and those signs along with other "ATC-signs" are at page 96 ("ATC börjar" and "ATC slutar"). However, I think it would be fine to use the triangle or the diamond you suggested. This makes me remembering that normally on an "infartssignal" (=choose signal), there is a little yellow square sign telling wich station is ahead (page 17, sign with "HOA A1/2"). Would this be suitable to distinguish that this is a choose signal?

Now the signals can be distinguished by number of lights:
2 - 2-aspect stop
3 - 2-aspect choose
4 - 3-aspect stop
5 - 3-aspect choose
I think it is enough. I would use the yellow diamond, or some other plate to mark ATC signals.

BTW do you have any idea if some signals in sweden are "permissive"?

I think about using dwarf-signals (either alone or combined with main signal), for token-block signalling. Even if it is not used in sweden, you might need it for playing a game.

A thought about speed signs - if I guess right it is the round yellow sign with black number at page 41. and the triangles at page 42 are their distant counterparts? What is the sign with triangle instead of numbers?
Is the fig 38 in http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html just an older version of speed sign? (also as 1.9 at page 114)

What is 6.3 (page 64) ? Hinderpale
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on December 01, 2015, 10:33:22 PM
I was thinking also about sign at page 81 or 27 (2.1), just because it would be easy to do. But I have no idea what they mean.
"Påstigningssignal" is actually a mechanical signal, placed on the platforms and turned by any travelers on the platform to face the train in order to tell the train that there are people wanting to travel with the train.

Quote
Now the signals can be distinguished by number of lights:
2 - 2-aspect stop
3 - 2-aspect choose
4 - 3-aspect stop
5 - 3-aspect choose
I think it is enough. I would use the yellow diamond, or some other plate to mark ATC signals.
Ok, I guess thats also enough.

Quote
BTW do you have any idea if some signals in sweden are "permissive"?
Some kinds of permissive signalling do exist:
5 light signal: three green solid = "short route" meaning that the train should drive carefully because there are obstacles (eg another train).
Dwarf signals: page 22 shows a combined dwarf and main signal. The second aspect from the top could in principle be a permissive signaling aspect, however its irl focused for shunting movements. Such a signal is in effect also a 3 aspect signal (beside the call on aspect):
Stop= Solid red, horisontal white (no 1)
Caution= Flashing left green, vertical white (no 5)
Clear= Solid right green, vertical white (no 8 (page 23))
Callon= Solid red, vertical white (no 2)

Quote
I think about using dwarf-signals (either alone or combined with main signal), for token-block signalling. Even if it is not used in sweden, you might need it for playing a game.
Maybe not use the dwarf signal for that, but the sign on page 27, fig 2.1? Despite its usually a sign placed where the train stops, it means that the clearance given from the last signal, still is valid beyond the platform. We could interpret it that the sign is placed on the signal itself, making it a tokenblock signal.

Quote
A thought about speed signs - if I guess right it is the round yellow sign with black number at page 41. and the triangles at page 42 are their distant counterparts? What is the sign with triangle instead of numbers?
You are right with the speed signs and their distant counterparts. The signs with a triangle instead of numbers are just telling that a speed restriction, shown on the ATC panel in the train, is ahead. Arrow down is used when the speed will be lower, otherwise the up-pointing arrow.

Quote
Is the fig 38 in http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html just an older version of speed sign? (also as 1.9 at page 114)
Yes, I assume fig.38 just are an older version of speed signs. However the signals 1.9 at page 114 are modern speed restrictions for shunting.

Quote
What is 6.3 (page 64) ? Hinderpale
This pole is used at track joints, and is positioned where a train may park before the joint.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on December 12, 2015, 05:57:03 PM
Hi, I have an idea how to "fake" the T signal. I can just move the graphics of classic semaphore to the very edge of tile. And then if you build signals so that they are between the tracks (signal on right side of track, train running on left hand track), their masts will join visually together, while arms will operate independently. However it will be usable only for block signals on double track. Putting such signals in the middle of station, it will force you to build the station twice as long.

As to the old 3-state signalling. From what you wrote early, it seems to me as very similar to time-interval signalling. But if I understand correctly, that can be used only on double track, otherwise head-on collisions are unavoidable. Alternative option would be to use the T signal as permissive (in absolute or circuit block), with caution coded as call-on. But I think it too will work nicely only on double track. For single track, the token-block is imho the only viable option (unless the discussed change in reservations is made).
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on December 12, 2015, 09:34:03 PM
This would only work on a two track station, would it not, even if the code were amended to make this pair act like a T-signal/station signal?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on December 12, 2015, 10:37:09 PM
Yes there would have to be one T signal for each pair of tracks. It was just an idea how to get T signal's visual appearance without any code modifications. Anyway I think that T signals are not really usable in simutrans. They remind me of some small czech stations, that use mechanical semaphores until now. These small stations have only one signal for each direction, even though there are multiple tracks. The signalman (station master) has to go out and let the train depart with hand signal (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%BDpravka). I suppose that similar system was used with T signals. It worked in addition to hand signals.

In simutrans you too need to specify from which track the train is allowed to go. So you have to put a signal on each platform before the points. If you put the signal out of the station (behind the points, where the station track join together), you ask for deadlock. Train will depart (in drive-by sight) and if the track is not free, it will block the points.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on December 14, 2015, 02:36:16 PM
That was avery creative way to get the t-signal!
Although it is a very nice idea, I would really like to hear if James has any new thoughts regarding these signals?
If there was an easy way to make your arrangement work on single tracks as well, it would also be interesting.

The three state signaling, but where two trains in rare circumstances where allowed to travel in the same direction after each other, I thought we would not do?
Anyway, that requires some code change to make it work on single track.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on December 14, 2015, 11:08:37 PM
I have been rather busy at work lately, and have had less time than I might like to dedicate to Simutrans. I had also been somewhat side-tracked by rebalancing the steam locomotive power (if you will excuse the pun). The next step is to improve the way that junctions work in time interval signalling using some new research information recently obtained from very old railway rule books, and I will then consider further whether the T-signal or station signal can readily be incorporated into the code.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 25, 2016, 06:26:24 PM
If those new alpha-blendings gets into Experimental, that could be used to show the status of a signal from behind: Let colored "spheres" be in front of the lamps that are lit! That way almost all signals can be painted more true to the original and it still being possible to se the status from all angles.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on April 26, 2016, 06:38:56 AM
Yes, I have that on my todo list :)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on June 24, 2016, 08:06:59 PM
Are you doing any work on this currently?

I am reworking all the signals so it gets more flexible and adding all the states not yet present. They will also not be compatible backwards anymore.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on June 24, 2016, 08:25:10 PM
Not doing anything but there may be some uncommited unfinished stuff. I was working on czech signals recently. I'll check what I have and push it to git, or send separately.

uploaded signals.new - which has my latest stuff. No changes in graphics, just in dat... Feel free to modify
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on June 24, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
great, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on June 24, 2016, 08:41:48 PM
pushed. Tried to compile, fails on:

ERROR: image_writer_t:  cannot open Vehicles/Rail Vehicles/Locomotives/A-tender.png
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on June 24, 2016, 08:58:26 PM
Are you using the old "original" makeobj or a devel-new one?
Oh, I forgot to upload the graphics. Try again!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on June 24, 2016, 09:27:25 PM
its ok now
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on July 01, 2016, 08:00:46 AM
There is now a whole bunch of signals I have modified on github for the new experimental. I think there might be some bugs and issues in the datfiles, but will have a look on that again later.
Also note that they are on a new branch on github. Very originally I called that branch half-height..  :::)

Please have a look at the graphics, and write if you encounters any issues or other things!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on July 06, 2016, 06:26:46 PM
ERROR: image_writer_t:  cannot open Way/WayObjects/Rail Signals/images/Main_2_ATC.png

Edit: it was only case sensitivity of file names in Linux. Fixed by renaming files and pushed to git

Just a question - why most of the signals are coded as longblock?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on July 08, 2016, 09:05:37 AM
Sorry for the delay!
I was testing the long block feature and some of the tests made it onto git. Currently, all track circuit block signals (maybe save for the choose signals, I don't remember) are coded as longblock, because it seems to work as usual AND you can then use the same signals as starter signal.
Also, the time interval with telegraph (red white semaphores) use long block for the same reason.
However, nothing is definitive.

There is also a bunch of yellow/red semaphores currently coded as absolute block while I'm not sure if they should remain as such.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on July 08, 2016, 04:46:29 PM
Ok. Just one idea, about trac circuit vs. Cab signalling. As there is not big difference between them, I would suggest to set 2-aspect signals as track circuit and 3-aspect as cab signalling. Without the need for yellow sign to distinguish. I know it is not historically correct, but it will be easier for the player. Btw top speed at czech railways without cab signaling is 120 km/h,  distance between distant and main signals (or 3-aspect blocks) is 1 km. This is considered too short for higher speeds, therefore cab signaling is needed to extend the visibility of signal and get 2 km of braking distance
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on July 09, 2016, 10:07:56 AM
In that case, you would loose the three aspect signals as a track circuit block signal? I dont think I would want that. The idea in the end is that when ATC is developed (in 1980) the track circuit block signals gets obsololete, so you would never have to choose between the two.
The icon says ATC (somewhere, there should be a declaration that ATC=Cabsignals), do you still think it would cause confusion?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on July 09, 2016, 07:35:53 PM
My idea was based on czechoslovak signalling, where 3-aspect signalling was introduced in 50's with track circuits, and quickly upgraded to cab signalling in 60's. 2-aspect signals are essentially absolute block, but for simutrans I code them as circuit with default danger. Czech cab signals are simpler than swedish ATC, they just repeat the aspect of next signal (danger, caution, slowly, clear). If you think it is worth distinguishing circuit and cab signals, then do it.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 05, 2016, 08:52:16 PM
One of the "new" features from standard is the alpha image blendings. That is now in Experimental as well and I made a quick test to check how to use it:

(http://i.imgur.com/1Wy4P4n.png)

If you cannot immediatedly see it, it is the lights from the signals throwing a glare in the air in front of the lamp, so one can see the state of the signal from behind.
What do you think?

Thank you to all involved in making this possible!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 05, 2016, 09:25:50 PM
This is a splendid idea for the use of the alpha blending, but, using the Swedish pakset downloaded from here (http://server.exp.simutrans.com/), I cannot see the effect; am I missing it, or is this not properly incorporated?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 05, 2016, 09:35:13 PM
Im still painting them as of this moment ;) That picture was just from the very first signal!
I will make a commit with them in just a minute!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 05, 2016, 09:51:49 PM
Great, I also thought that this would be the perfect use for alpha blending.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 05, 2016, 10:50:41 PM
All daylight signals are now on github with alpha blending
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 07, 2016, 09:23:23 PM
There is also another thing that has got alpha blendings in this image:

(http://i.imgur.com/iNTaMzI.png)

See if you can spot it :)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 07, 2016, 09:33:47 PM
The image does not load for me, I am afraid.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 07, 2016, 09:43:33 PM
Strange.. it loads fine for me even though i have logged out from Imgur. Try reload the page maybe?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 07, 2016, 09:45:11 PM
That still does not work, I am afraid. Perhaps it is cached for you?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 07, 2016, 09:51:14 PM
Now?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 08, 2016, 06:49:14 AM
Lookingvon phone, I would guess the lights on the engine. And a light blue pixel on the station roof
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 08, 2016, 04:01:47 PM
Ah, yes, working now! The rear facing signal?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 08, 2016, 04:08:06 PM
Catenary!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on September 16, 2016, 07:03:03 AM
(This thread has been moved to the new board for the pak. Just a heads up. Apologies to everyone who sees this message multiple times)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 18, 2016, 02:21:20 PM
I'm looking at the signals with blinking lights being simulated as smaller lights than non-blinking... Nice idea, but quite hard to see the difference between caution + straight route, and alternate route. (and no difference between clear/caution with alt. route). Especially if you don't know that you should look for it. if I may have a suggestion to deviate a little from real world and put the lights like this - one 5 light signal:
  • top green - clear (the main signal)
  • red - danger (the main signal)
  • middle green - caution (distant signal)
  • white - clear (distan signal)
  • bottom green - alternate route for choose signal
to the aspects would be like this:
  • red - danger
  • 2x - green (top + middle) - caution
  • 3x - green - caution + alt route
  • top green + white - clear
  • top green + white + bottom green - clear + alt route

2-aspect choose signal, would only have two green lights meaning clear + alt route.
3-aspect non-choose signal, would not have the bottom green (as it is now).

Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 18, 2016, 04:13:57 PM
I understand that it might be difficult to spot the difference if you dont know what to look at. I am however hesitating a bit to rearrange the lamps, as it would feel very inconsistent (it is arranged like it is irl for a reason).

Maybe even less light coming out?

Could there instead be another way to distinguish that a lamp is blinking?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 18, 2016, 04:32:40 PM
In printed rulebooks, blinking is show as light with few rays (beams) shining out. Like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_railway_signalling
(Just FYI Polish and Czech signaling is very similar.). So I would suggest using the nice new transparency features to put some semi transparent rays around the light = in X shape for front facing light, and a longer beam for rear facing light.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 18, 2016, 04:45:38 PM
Just a quick hack with lesser brighting blink:

(http://i.imgur.com/PumWEtW.png)
http://i.imgur.com/PumWEtW.png (http://i.imgur.com/PumWEtW.png)

It does get difficult to see though...

Yes, that was also one of my initial ideas to have stripes out of the lamp. Maybe now with the alpha blendings.
The inspiration to the darkened blinks comes from this types of notation: http://techworld.idg.se/polopoly_fs/1.160562.1210283275!imageManager/2141377552.jpg (http://techworld.idg.se/polopoly_fs/1.160562.1210283275!imageManager/2141377552.jpg)

edit:
and a version with flare:
(http://i.imgur.com/8MRjLQn.png)
http://i.imgur.com/8MRjLQn.png (http://i.imgur.com/8MRjLQn.png)
Compare with the left most signal that has two full lit lights.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 18, 2016, 05:24:11 PM
I like the flares more, even though they are not very clear... I know it is not easy to do on a few pixels...
Perhaps someone unbiased should judge...
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 18, 2016, 06:07:40 PM
Quote
Perhaps someone unbiased should judge...
Probably a good idea.

Any thoughts, readers of this thread?

As a reference, here is how I originally made the flashing lights:
(http://i.imgur.com/lqmL6yd.png)
http://i.imgur.com/lqmL6yd.png (http://i.imgur.com/lqmL6yd.png)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 18, 2016, 08:48:16 PM
I am afraid that I cannot get these to work even by clicking the link: the Imagur page is visible, but with no picture in it.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 19, 2016, 04:59:17 AM
Quote
I am afraid that I cannot get these to work even by clicking the link: the Imagur page is visible, but with no picture in it.
That is so strange!

edit:
I have made all my uploaded pictures go into a public album, does this help?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 19, 2016, 09:19:20 AM
Sadly not; I wonder whether it is an issue with my adblocking software?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 19, 2016, 05:22:58 PM
Could be. I can see the screenshots just fine. Ves: put them on server.exp......./screenshots/
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 19, 2016, 06:15:31 PM
Thank you, but I was thinking that that server one day gets closed down, but that is maybe too far out in the future (ie several years)? Also, I was unsure wether the server was ment to be like dedicated to the experimental development or if it is more "free" to use?

Otherwise, I posted a link in the screenshoot thread with possible sollutions to the issue James is having
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on September 19, 2016, 06:32:14 PM
I'm fine with anything, as long as it is related to simutrans, and fits within the quota ...
However do not rely on it being available forever. If space is needed for something else, screenshots will have to go...
(or if isaac decides to shut the server down and use it for something else...)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 19, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
However do not rely on it being available forever. If space is needed for something else, screenshots will have to go...
(or if isaac decides to shut the server down and use it for something else...)
That is my concern! I always think it is so sad in forumthreads when the pictures disappear.
I think I will try a bit more with Imgur, and possibly shift to eg flickr or something else if the problems persist!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on September 20, 2016, 02:22:39 AM
Sorry for the offtopic, at least it's partially offtopic.

It is never my intention for anything to disappear. It seems SMF is...... rather fragile, and the help there is very unhelpful. I was not able to get sufficient help to fix the problems, so attachments and avatars are lost. :/ I'm very sorry. Sorry doesn't bring the files back, mind. But I *am* sorry anyway.

So as far as I'm concerned, the secondary server should be permanent. My only minor concern is that I'm not happy with how the control panel (Webmin) on that server is doing. I"m having some trouble creating new users. THere is a chance I may need to rebuild it, meaning everything would have to be re-uploaded........ but I haven't gotten to that point yet, and hopefully I can make backups of at least most of it (not sure about working environments, for example)........

But it should be safe.

On space: That is intended to be the backup server for the main server; any space leftover is available for use. There is no backup of this server, however, so if something did happen, files will be gone from it. But other than that, it's intended to be permanent....

So if someone needs a place that is backed up, I can create account(s) on the main server, no worries. That server also has 2TB.

Basically, we should have enough space.

And I will never leave the community - at least not as far as I could foresee. I haven't seriously played Simutrans in years, though I pick it up from time to time (I wish it had more SimCity features); so it's not like I'll get tired of Simutrans and leave. I'm still here. :) (well, and not *tired* of Simutrans).

Okay, enough babbling - basically to say: I am glad to try and help make anything that makes life easier/better for the community to the best of my ability. :)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 20, 2016, 03:44:37 AM
Thank you Isaac! Your server it will be! :)

Edit:

Pictures uploaded at server.exp.sim........com
Here the three pictures comes again:

The original "half darkened":
(http://server.exp.simutrans.com/screenshots/Pak128.Sweden-Ex/Signal_blinking_original.jpg)

The more darkened:
(http://server.exp.simutrans.com/screenshots/Pak128.Sweden-Ex/Signal_blinking_with_less_light.jpg)

The flares:
(http://server.exp.simutrans.com/screenshots/Pak128.Sweden-Ex/Signal_blinking_with_flares.jpg)

So any thoughts about this from readers of this thread?
How do you best model flashing lights?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on September 21, 2016, 12:45:17 AM
I can finally see the pictures - splendid! Actual flashing lights would require a very complex change in the code, but I see what you have done in the lower picture, which looks good, if perhaps a bit too subtle for it to be noticeable except on close inspection.

Incidentally, and slightly off-topic, a question to Isaac - you write that you would like Simutrans to have more "SimCity features"; can you elaborate? I ask because one of the planned major projects for Experimental is improving the town growth code, and I am considering options  to allow players to build city buildings much like real railway companies did in the 19th and early 20th centuries to stimulate demand for their own services, as well as earning rental income (based on demand, in turn based on transportation) from city buildings bought using the existing mechanism, so that transport networks can in part be funded by property rentals, as the privately run railways in Japan are. This may well be a few years off unless I can get some more developers on board, but I should be interested in your views all the same in light of your comment above.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on September 21, 2016, 12:52:18 PM
I splitted the topic into this thread:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15764.0 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15764.0)

You forum terrorists ;)

Isaac, what do you think of the blinking?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on March 18, 2017, 10:34:39 PM
So, rather low activity from my side lately, mostly due to trying to do many things combined with limited time!
But, I have been playing around with signals and signalboxes and painted a bunch of signal boxes which I think did come out rather OK.
However, the quite advanced signalling of Exp..Extended gives some challenges as how to present the different types of signals, and I have been thinking a big chunk on it recently.

This is the approach I think I will do:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4477/37502715266_b6338f249e_b_d.jpg)

The system being this:
*nothing* = what you would expect it to be, that is track circuit block signals
ABS (absent for the moment) = Absolute Block. The sign shares the colors from the absolute block semaphores (completely fictive sign)
TOK = Token. The sign is used on all token block signals, hopefully feeling consistent. (existing sign, with a slightly different meaning)
ATC = Cab signal (ATC=Automatic Train Control). (existing sign, also with a slightly different meaning)
ATC/TOK =  is in fact just a normal token block signal, despite being hinted as a cab signal. Reasons for its existence is the speed limit and consistence

Something I was considering was to add a small square yellow sign on the choose signals. That would then stack with the other signs, so an absolute choose signal would have both the square and the absolute block sign.

I also wondered about the need to specify choose signals in their icons, ie with "CHO". I have not done this yet, as this would affect all choose signals and might state the obvious.

The signals will obviously not all be available at once. Different signal boxes will only hold something like two different kinds at once (ie track circuit block signals and "TOK", or "ABS" and" TOK")

I know the Czech pakset uses a combination of a number and a letter, but I dont remember if it is finnish or not. I also dont know if the graphics on the map will be different as well.
The Brittish pakset dont have anything on the icon of the signal, and the signals themself are not different (example: absolute block and track circuit block daylight signals).

Do you think this is a clear separation of the signals? Do you have any comments or would you propose any change?
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: jamespetts on March 18, 2017, 10:43:08 PM
How splendid!
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on March 19, 2017, 10:20:48 PM
This looks ok to me.

Just to explain the czech pakset icons. In first place - czech pakset is not fully fit for experimental, so there are no signal boxes and the choices are not final. On the other hand there are many signals with the same function, just for aesthetics.

Primary information in icon is the botoom letter:
Standard: S-signal, P-presignal, L-longblock, C-choose, O - One way, EC - end of chose
Extended: A-autoblock (default clear, permissive), while S is default danger and absolute, number telling the aspects so there is 3A, 4A, 3S, 4S, ... two aspect signals are without number., ES - end of signalling (switch to drive by sight). 3P - is for 3-aspect presignal for standard, or two-block (platform) signal if it ever happens.

The in-game look of the signals is as close to real world as possible. Some distinction can be inferred by painting of the pole: white - permissive signal, red+white - absolute, red+short white - longblock, gray or black+white - distant, blue-white - shunting. Some signals can be distinguished only by the positioning of red light (eg. 3 vs 4 aspect choose) . Choose signals have more lamps (or mechanical arms)

Signalling method is not hinted in any way - at the moment everything is circuit block. The plan is to have mechanical as absolute block, color-light signals as track circuit, 3/4-aspect as cab signals.

(http://server.exp.simutrans.com/screenshots/simscr30.jpg)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on March 19, 2017, 10:51:22 PM
Ok, so "S" will be permissive signals and "A" 'nonpermissive'?
How will you do with token and one train staffs (assuming you  are implementing these)?
And, if you implement it, daylight color variants of absolute, token and one train staff?
I'm asking out of curiosity and inspiration :)
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on March 19, 2017, 11:56:05 PM
Ok, so "S" will be permissive signals and "A" 'nonpermissive'?
nope - it is the other way round. S - non permissive - standard signal, A - permissive (autoblok in czech terminology)

Quote
How will you do with token and one train staffs (assuming you  are implementing these)?
I'm not really sure yet. The main thing is that token machines are unknown here and one-train staffs really a minor thing. We have something that is similar in principle, but the permission to go is given by dispatcher via phone or radio. For that a set of signs would be used. (now they are used for narrow gauge). (http://server.exp.simutrans.com/screenshots/simscr31.jpg)

Quote
And, if you implement it, daylight color variants of absolute, token and one train staff?
I'm asking out of curiosity and inspiration :)
If I ever use absolute block at all then I would probably put all 2-aspect signals as absolute block, and all 3,4-aspect signals as track circuit or cab-signal. Or I will make the switch from absolute block to track-circuit with different signal design. Now I have 3 models of daylight color signals: 1950's (soviet), 1960's (soviet with czech improvements),  1970's (original czech design still used today). There were some earlier designs (since 1927), which we do not have in the pakset yet. So those may be used for absolute block too.

Using this philosophy for swedish signalling you could use the white rim on signals as a distinction between early (absolute block) and modern (track circuit) daylight signals.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Ves on April 26, 2017, 08:55:29 PM
I think I will have both with and without rim track circuit block signals. I painted the "ABS" sign and I think it looks ok on the icon. Incidently I also added the yellow small square on the signal graphics for choose signals, and I think that looks ok too, but there will not be any special message on the icon, as it should be obvious.
The new double block, however, I think would justify from such a icon message, only, what should it say? Can anyone figure out a short three letter message that would make sence?
I have not yet figured out any sign to put on the signal graphic that would match both semaphores and daylight signals, and Im considering to just use the same graphics as their single block counterpart. There will only be a handfull of these signals and generally only one double block signal available with a signalbox at any given time.
Title: Re: Swedish signals and signs.
Post by: Vladki on June 12, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
During my visit to Stockholm I tried to observe railway signs and signals. During the ride on Lidingobanan I have seen (unfortunately not photographed) försignal with only onle yellow (orange) lamp, that was either blinking (caution) or steady (clear). Otherwise it looked like the regular 2 or 3-lamp forsignaler with green and white. The forsignal is nicely seen here: http://www.jarnvag.net/banguide/ropsten-gashaga

Also there were 2-lamp main signals (red/green) that were protecting road crossing (with triangular yellow [V] sign). However, on the same track there were also standard crossing signals - one lamp showing either red or white, and related triangular forsignals. So I think that these were block signals combined with crossing signals.