The International Simutrans Forum

PakSets and Customization => Pak128.Britain => Topic started by: chrisrose1993 on July 14, 2009, 04:01:13 PM

Title: Underground Trains
Post by: chrisrose1993 on July 14, 2009, 04:01:13 PM
Hiya,

First post here  :D

Been playing Simutrans for a while now with pak128.Britain and was wondering if theres any underground trains or how would i go about drawing the graphics for them.

Cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Stubbsy on July 14, 2009, 04:25:09 PM
you should of asked me at school :)

if you look at http://addons.simutrans.com/?pak=128&cat=vehicles&todo=search (http://addons.simutrans.com/?pak=128&cat=vehicles&todo=search) there will be some underground trains, and many other add ons.

Note by The Hood: the British Rail and London Transport sets by Kieron are previous versions of the rail vehicles in the latest pak128.Britain - so no need to use these with pak128.Britain...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on July 14, 2009, 04:37:56 PM
Welcome to the forum and thanks for the interest in pak128.Britain!

You may have noticed there are a limited number of underground trains in the set at present:
- Metropolitan E class steam loco
- Metropolitan Vickers electric loco
- Metropolitan 1907 EMU stock
- Metropolitan bogie rolling stock
- Metropolitan dreadnought rolling stock
- DLR vehicles

These were initially drawn for pak128 by Kieron Green to complement Timothy's underground addon for pak128 (which contains some of the more recent tube stock).  Kieron's stuff has always been in pak128.Britain because he started the project and so therefore the stuff is graphically consistent with the rest of the pak128.Britain project - but Timothy's pak128 add-on is older and is in the graphics style of standard pak128 and doesn't quite look right in pak128.Britain (which is why it isn't in the releases).

There are two possible solutions to this:
1) Timothy has given permission for me (and presumably anyone who wants?) to modify his graphics to fit the pak128.Britain style - this may or may not work well as most pak128.Britain graphics are done in blender 3d modelling and rendered with the same settings for consistency, whereas Timothy's are pixel-painted.  They might need a lot of work to fit the pak128.Britain style but if you (or anyone else, ultimately I was going to get round to it at some point in the distant future...) wanted to have a go then ask Timothy for the sources and try and follow the guidelines in the thread on pak128.Britain graphics

2) Create new graphics from scratch - especially if this could be done in Blender then it would be easy to get consistency with existing vehicles.  If you want to go down this route, I can provide existing blender files as starting points (with all the lighting and angles set up).  Again, most welcome to do this - just ask if you aren't sure on anything.

You may have noticed in this reply (and other threads) that graphical consistency is important to the project - that's the number one thing for getting new graphics into the set.  As I say, I recommend the blender method - it is the best way to ensure consistency, and I manage to draw the graphics you see in the pak despite being rubbish at art using blender.  Just ask if you want more pointers...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 04:39:40 PM
Note: This post crossed with The Hood's above, so there may be some duplication...


There are indeed some older addons for Pak128.Britain with underground trains, although they are not, like the rest of Pak128.Britain, open-source, nor are they balanced to fit the rest of the Pak128.Britain vehicles. Also, because they are not open source, it is not possible to adapt them to work optimally with Simutrans-Experimental.

There is a plan eventually to make Underground trains for Pak128.Britain. I think that there is some suggestion that the original author of the addons to which Stubbsy referred would provide the sources for his graphics and allow The Hood to update them as necessary, although I am not sure whether that is confirmed. Indeed, there are a few very old Underground trains already in the pakset, as well as a complete set of DLR trains.

If you want to have a go at drawing some new ones (Underground trains, or anything else that you think would add to the pakset, would be extremely welcome - we could do in particular with some early EMUs of all types), have a look at this (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2401.0) thread. The easiest way to start is to ask The Hood to send you the .blend files (that is, files for the 3-d application called Blender: it is free to download) of vehicles similar to those that you want to produce, make small modifications to them, and then re-render them. Once you have some experience of doing that, you can make more and more significant modifications and eventually produce your own .blends from scratch (if you have experience of using Blender already, please forgive me if I appear condescending).

Welcome to the forums, incidentally, and thank you very much for your interest in Pak128.Britain :-)

Edit: The Hood, I wouldn't mind having a go at re-doing Timothy's stock - changing the contrast in The Gimp, for example, might well be a viable way of doing it. I'm not sure whether it would work, but it's worth a try. Can you PM me with the best way of contacting him to request the sources? Presumably, he's happy for them to be released under an open source licence?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: chrisrose1993 on July 14, 2009, 04:50:27 PM
Yeah i wouldnt mind having ago at updating them as i use blender anyway for my openbve projects  ;D so should be ok its just getting them into the game.Also im pretty good at pixel painting as i do paperbuses; this being an example http://mm2rmbuses.googlepages.com/Enviro200.png (http://mm2rmbuses.googlepages.com/Enviro200.png) (which has a few errors  >:( ) but as i say its getting them into the game.


Cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Stubbsy on July 14, 2009, 05:13:25 PM
well chris if you want to paint them and send them to me, i can make the .dat to how you want it and explain it to you etc and i will do that and pak it for you until you get the hang of it :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on July 14, 2009, 07:20:55 PM
Edit: The Hood, I wouldn't mind having a go at re-doing Timothy's stock - changing the contrast in The Gimp, for example, might well be a viable way of doing it. I'm not sure whether it would work, but it's worth a try. Can you PM me with the best way of contacting him to request the sources? Presumably, he's happy for them to be released under an open source licence?

I'd be happy to send you the source files, just email me at tb[at]entropy[dot]me[dot]uk and I'll send them to you. They are (as with all of my creations) subject to a BSD style licence which I'll include a copy of. I have no problems with anyone modifying/using them for use with the Simutrans project. One day I'll get around to posting all the source images online somewhere.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: wlindley on July 14, 2009, 07:54:36 PM
Curiously, at least with 1.0.2, the "Metropolitan 1907 Motorised Tube Stock (middle)" is precociously available in 1898, but can never be built; in the depot window, there is always a red line under it, even after building the presumably-matching front unit.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on July 14, 2009, 09:24:07 PM
Wlindley,

thank you for the bug report. I have found the problem, and sent a fixed version to The Hood. Much appreciated :-)

Chris,

thank you very much for your interest in creating vehicles for Pak128.Britain :-) Would you like me to send you some of the .blend files that I have? (The Hood has the whole set, whereas I have a few). Getting them into the game isn't too hard - I can assist if you would like; either send me a PM or post a message in the public forum (the advantage of the latter being that anyone else with the same issue will be able to see the solution). The thread to which I pointed you is a good starting point. (Incidentally, that's a good quality picture of the 'bus - if you drew that, I am impressed :-) ).

It is better to use .blends and then render them than pixel paint for Pak128.Britain for two reasons: (1) it looks more consistent with what we already have; and (2) it enables you or others to re-use the blends in making similar but slightly different vehicles that look highly consistent with the originals. That is the technique that I used to make the class 81 electric and 8p steam locomotives in the release set. Adapting Timothy's Underground set will, of course, require raster graphics skills. There is no harm in us both trying.

Timothy,

thank you very much for the offer :-) I will e-mail you shortly as you suggested. Is the BSD licence compatible with the Artistic Licence under which the rest of the set is released, do you know? If not, would you consider dual-licensing them? Thank you very much for volunteering your work for adaptation and inclusion :-)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on July 15, 2009, 07:42:19 AM
@Chris,

Looks like if you're doing blends for openbve then you should have no problems with the simutrans graphics level of detail.  I recommend you download the example blends from the thread jamespetts linked too (e.g. the class 67) and use the lighting and render settings in there with your models.  You may need to tweak the scales a little - 1 simutrans tile = 30m in pak128.Britian, but there is some distortion on lengths on some models to make them fit.  In the class 67 blend file (and others I use) 1 blender grid square = 1/16 of a simutrans tile (i.e. = 1 internal length unit as specified in the length= parameter in the dat files) so vehicles should be a whole number of grid squares long, and 2 wide.

If you want the existing blends for anything, just PM me - I have most of them.  For converting the render outputs into something the game understands, you can have plenty of help on this forum, but in particular I recommend looking at the existing stuff on sourceforge SVN and using the png and dat files there as templates.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 11, 2012, 04:37:57 PM
I might be able to source some models of tube stock from the sketchup warehouse.
I just shot off an email to get permission to use it in simutrans.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 11, 2012, 06:50:57 PM
Has anyone been able to get Sketchup things into Simutrans so far?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 11, 2012, 07:51:06 PM
@james
my entire maglev set was done through sketchup and so were the bridge parts.
It was all a matter of exporting a collada file that was able to import into blender. For some reason blender cannot import sketchup collada exports, but it can import meshlabs collada exports. So to get sketchup files into blender, you need to
1) export collada from sketchup
2) import to meshlabs (for some reason, meshlabs doesn't handle textures and colours from sketchup too well.)
3) export collada from meshlabs (you'll notice a drastic file size difference between the two)
4) import to blender
5) add appropriate textures and colours in blender
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 11, 2012, 10:39:50 PM
That sounds painful! Blender is really not that hard to work with, especially with the really very simple graphics used in Simutrans. However, if we could get some good Blender readable Collada files of Underground stock, that would be excellent - they would need scaling and rendering to match the other things in Pak128.Britain, of course, but that is doable.

Edit: Could we have a sticky post in the Pak128.Britain forum about how to get Sketchup files into Blender?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 11, 2012, 11:07:40 PM
okay, so I've gotten permission to use them freely :)
Here is what they (tube stock 1995 and tube stock 2009) look like under sketchup, but I think the paint will need to be redone under blender.
here is the collada file: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Tube_stock_1995_2009.rar (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Tube_stock_1995_2009.rar)

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/simutrans/Tube-stock.png)

There are also 1938, 1978, C69/77 and D78 stock on the warehouse, but there's just no way to contact the makers.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 11, 2012, 11:47:21 PM
Hmm. I have tried importing these, but they are very difficult to work with in their current state: the models are, effectively, all one object (for all four vehicles) with a byzantine polygonal structure. Painting these properly will be a monumental effort - probably greater than or equal to starting from scratch with some much simpler models and modifying them as necessary for all the various flavours of tube stock (which are all quite similar in basic shape).

Thank you very much for trying, however.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on January 12, 2012, 12:35:18 AM
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/00875.0/index.html

I remember making these, pixel by pixel, it was a real labor of love (I wish I still had that much free time!)

I suspect the 3D model replacements will take a lot less time to make than my pixel-drawn ones did :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 12, 2012, 01:45:47 AM
I looked at these - a labour of love I can well imagine! Unfortunately, they don't fit the scale or style of Pak128.Britain, which is a great shame, as if they did, they'd save us a great deal of work.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 12, 2012, 08:50:37 AM
My hap'orth on these:

1) Timothy's underground trains are excellent but not fitting the style of pak128.Britain. I'm not sure about scale - Timothy could you confirm what scale you used? If the scale is compatible maybe a touch of reshading can do the trick. It would be a shame not to use such good drawings that took so long. If not the same scale, it's definitely time to draw some new versions. I do have plans involving the tube tunnel graphics and the stations though - do you have the sources for these Timothy and do you mind me using/adapting them?

2) Given a lot of people would probably want to use underground stock given it's iconic status, I'm really keen for this to be very well in keeping with the rest of the set, especially if we are going to the trouble of drawing new stuff.  In order to make lots of models quickly and consistently, also considering colouring and shading of sketchup models needs to be done in blender, and given the (lack of) detail required in the models at the scale we are rendering them, I'd be much more in favour of having these as 100% blender projects. All but the most simple rescaling and colouring tasks on collada imports quickly becomes very tedious in blender, so we'd probably take longer using them than making new models from scratch in blender. That said, if you produce a complete set in total keeping with the rest of the pakset without me lifting a finger, I won't be complaining :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on January 12, 2012, 09:00:56 AM
I wasn't suggesting they be used, just providing a link since there has been some discussion.

All the source files can be found here:

http://entropy.me.uk/simutrans/LondonUndergroundSimutrans.zip

They were made to the same scale as other pak128 vehicles.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 12, 2012, 09:29:53 AM
@hood, james
please tell me if these are better.
They should have the components/pieces and detail on faces saved, but I'm not sure if they are selectable through blender. In meshlabs, I looked at the skeletal and all the details are preserved.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Tube_stock_1995_2009_fix.rar
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 12, 2012, 01:28:17 PM
If we are starting from scratch with this (as seems likely), I might be able to assist with research and producing some vehicles. Once we are ready or nearly to make a start, we can discuss the division of work.
 
It strikes me that, because tube stock vehicles from about the 1920s onwards are all of very similar shape to each other, producing a good vareity of tube stock should be relatively straightforward.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 12, 2012, 01:42:10 PM
@james

tube stock must conform to some fairly strict size tolerances, while subsurface stock is similar to normal trains.

this is about the best diagram I can find here: http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm (http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm) and here: http://www.tubeprune.com/rollingstock-outline.html (http://www.tubeprune.com/rollingstock-outline.html)
(http://www.tubeprune.com/tube-surface-comp-reduced3.jpg)

dimensions are here: http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Dimensions.htm#Dimensions (http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Dimensions.htm#Dimensions) however, these are only the outer portions and are not very detailed about where the body starts to bend.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 12, 2012, 09:45:45 PM
Ahh, interesting. Although I ride on both types of Underground trains regularly, having the exact measurements is useful for scaling purposes.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 15, 2012, 05:15:23 PM
Just had a chance to look at the dae files from sketchup - while the models are well-detailed they will be awkward to work with in blender. Given the fact we won't need much detail at this scale and that tube trains really aren't complicated shapes, I would personally start from scratch in blender.  Not that I've got the time right now...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 21, 2012, 10:42:48 AM
@Timothy

Just a quick question about your station images - the pspimages are not files I can open, so I can only get at the pngs. Do the pspimages contain layers? I would like to replace the tracks with pak128.Britain tracks and add player colours instead of the red, green and blue tiling. It's not impossible using just the pngs, but if the pspimages have layers that would be easier, if only I could open them (without buying paint shop pro). If so, is there any chance you could export them into something that GIMP could open as a layered file?

EDIT:

I've had a go at editing just the png file - here's a comparison:

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9802/tubestationwip.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/tubestationwip.png/)

So far I've added player colours, darkened the whole image and removed some of the "comic" style outlines. I'm currently debating whether to remove some or all of the black outlining at the portals, but probably not. I also don't think the tracks are massively out of place after darkening, and they do align. I'm currently thinking of leaving them as they appear on the right hand image.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on January 21, 2012, 02:41:51 PM
They were created using Paint Shop Pro 8 if I recall correctly. I don't even have a copy of it any more since switching to Mac. And yes, they do have layers.

The edited version certainly looks more like the rest of the graphics in pak.Britain, it's a shame my proposal for automatic way-objects for underground track (e.g. tunnels) never got implemented.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 21, 2012, 02:46:13 PM
Wasn't there a proposal (implemented?) that allows a specific type of track to be used with a specific tunnel? If so, I'm planning on using the (adapted) tube electrification graphics as a waytype (rather than way-object) associated with a tube tunnel, which will have narrower bore on the entrance graphic. This will fit in with experimental's way constraint for tube tunnel to differentiate between tube and subsurface stock. I'll do a separate 4th rail electrification as a way-object for use both above and below ground.

It's good to be able to reuse these graphics. Unfortunately I don't think the tube stock fits the scale, otherwise I'd attempt a similar recolouring for them.  Pak128.Britain rail vehicles are 30m per tile, so length=8 (as all the tube graphics are) gives 15m. Tube stock is about 17-18m i.e. length=9-10.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 21, 2012, 03:24:15 PM
Pak128.Britain rail vehicles are 30m per tile, so length=8 (as all the tube graphics are) gives 15m. Tube stock is about 17-18m i.e. length=9-10.
 

 Err... are you sure? See the below screenshot.
 
 (http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/carriage-scale.png)
 
These Mk. I carriages (not rescaled by me) take more than 75% of a tile. Mk. I carriages are 57ft (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_Mark_1)), and 57ft is equivalent to just over 17m (source (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=57ft)). They should be around 56% of the length of the tile if that scale is correct. This is significant, since I have been scaling things using the Mk. I carriage underframes as a base.
 
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 21, 2012, 03:39:31 PM
James,

Looking back at kieron's original stuff e.g. http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/01983.0/index.html#msg26116 (http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/01983.0/index.html#msg26116) the scale is 1 tile = 28m. Also in your link to wikipedia it says most mk 1 are 19.35m. This gives almost exactly length=11. At any rate, underground trains should be longer than 8, which was the only allowed length when Timothy drew them...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 21, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Hmm - you are right: 57ft is the length of the suburban stock; 63ft 6 is the length of the normal stock. I had mistakenly thought that the 57ft length was the length of the normal stock. Drat - this means that I shall have to re-scale all the early carriages again.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 22, 2012, 10:44:39 PM
Here's the remodelled tube track with pak128.Britain tracks and slopes.  This time it's the internal way of a tunnel rather than an electrification way-object. It will need electrification as normal, and I intend to add 4th rail electrification graphics. The one problem is the lack of front image for ways means there are a couple of minor glitches, but overall it's not bad I think.  The only thing I want to do is remove the annoying underground pavement (this is what is causing the grey gridlines). Is this possible to disable?

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5240/undergroundtrack.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/undergroundtrack.png/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 22, 2012, 10:56:28 PM
That looks very nice! I wonder whether we could have some sort of internal tunnel graphics for ordinary tunnels, too? Am I right in recalling that your plan is to use ordinary tunnels for sub-surface stock?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 23, 2012, 10:22:16 PM
And some 4th rail graphics.  These are now added to SVN. All we need now is some tube stock...

(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2514/fourthrail.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/fourthrail.jpg/)

James, to answer your question, ultimately it would be nice to have tunnel graphics for each type of tunnel, but that won't happen right away. And yes, subsurface stock to use ordinary tunnels.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 23, 2012, 10:33:22 PM
Splendid! I keep forgetting to ask Kieron for the .blends of the early subsurface stock that he has done so that I can modify them - do you think that you could get them uploaded to the .blends repository?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Dwachs on January 24, 2012, 08:24:21 AM
The only thing I want to do is remove the annoying underground pavement (this is what is causing the grey gridlines). Is this possible to disable?
What do you mean?

The grid lines are taken from the pakset's grid line definition. The texture for tunnel tiles is this: http://www.simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_MiscDef&machine_translate_to_lang=&no_bl=y#Tunnelground
Just provide an empty graphic here.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 24, 2012, 10:14:09 AM
I wonder whether a thought could be given to narrow gauge tube tunnels and Post Office Railway vehicles...?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 24, 2012, 04:55:23 PM
@Dwachs:
So if I set a tunnel ground to a blank object, then the pavement won't show? That should do the trick...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Dwachs on January 24, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
I hope :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 27, 2012, 10:06:21 PM
@Timothy

Just a quick question about your station images - the pspimages are not files I can open, so I can only get at the pngs. Do the pspimages contain layers? I would like to replace the tracks with pak128.Britain tracks and add player colours instead of the red, green and blue tiling. It's not impossible using just the pngs, but if the pspimages have layers that would be easier, if only I could open them (without buying paint shop pro). If so, is there any chance you could export them into something that GIMP could open as a layered file?

EDIT:

I've had a go at editing just the png file - here's a comparison:

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9802/tubestationwip.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/tubestationwip.png/)

So far I've added player colours, darkened the whole image and removed some of the "comic" style outlines. I'm currently debating whether to remove some or all of the black outlining at the portals, but probably not. I also don't think the tracks are massively out of place after darkening, and they do align. I'm currently thinking of leaving them as they appear on the right hand image.

I have just spotted a possible anomaly in this image: the trains depicted here are, as I understand it, the sub-surface stock from the existing Pak128.Britain; if that is so, they should not be fitting through the portals at the end of the station into the tunnels, which are barely bigger than the tube stock that they are designed to accept.

Edit: Also, might there be some merit in having a special type of elevated roadway to allow us to simulate cut and cover tunnelling (dig using the artificial slope tool, fill with the elevated roadway)? The elevated roadway could use, as its "supports" graphics of the inside of the cut away sections, as depicted in the background of the following photograph:

(http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/fowler/fowler2.jpg)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 28, 2012, 12:49:04 PM
If you look closely I think the surface stock is scraping the portal roof. In any case it's possibly not worth the hassle (certainly not yet) of redrawing Timothy's hand-drawn tube tunnels for the sake of a couple of pixels (although if you want to do so, I would probably use the images).

The elevated way idea for cut and cover is plausible (and indeed has been done before in the days before true underground mode was introduced). The main issue I can see is one of balancing - given the discussion in the bridges thread about the relative pricing of artificial slopes and bridges (including elevated ways), in order to make cut and cover preferable to tunnels (at least for depth 1) then tunnels would have to be very expensive indeed. What do you think of this?

The other one is one of scale - for a double track railway you need two tiles width but most city roads are just one tile (unless you artificially create double lane streets). This would limit the usefulness of cut and cover in simutrans world...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 28, 2012, 01:48:32 PM
Rats, hadn't considered the double track issue - that does rather make things difficult. I wonder whether it'd be possible to tinker with city rules to produce double-width streets? On balancing, though, I do agree that tunnels should be very expensive indeed, as indeed they are in reality.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: wlindley on January 28, 2012, 07:00:17 PM
The amazing thing is that, as expensive as digging tunnels through London was, the Underground was a for-profit (and profitable!) enterprise.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 29, 2012, 09:55:06 AM
It's probably a good idea in the long run to have a cut-and-cover elevated city road - shouldn't be too hard as all images would need the same 4-arch base with the road tile superimposed. However I don't think it's a priority (not for me at least), especially given the lack of double roads...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 29, 2012, 11:12:59 AM
It's probably a good idea in the long run to have a cut-and-cover elevated city road - shouldn't be too hard as all images would need the same 4-arch base with the road tile superimposed. However I don't think it's a priority (not for me at least), especially given the lack of double roads...

Fair enough...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 29, 2012, 10:21:57 PM
OK, some actual TRAINS now...

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/327/1995stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/1995stock.jpg/)

It's 1995 Tube stock (can you tell at this scale?!?!?!) - although in game it will also double as 1996 stock as they are essentially the same for our purposes.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 29, 2012, 10:25:32 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on January 29, 2012, 11:15:28 PM
that looks awesome.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on January 29, 2012, 11:40:34 PM
Are they 3D renders or recolours of my ones?

It's funny how when I made these the 2009/2012 stock were just concept drawings, and are now in service. :) Did anyone make the 378 sets in use on the Overground network?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 30, 2012, 12:01:08 AM
Yes - the 378s have been in Pak128.Britain for longer than they have been in service ;-)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on January 30, 2012, 07:52:13 AM
Nice to see more progress :) Hopefully this will all be incorporated into the next release (and that into Debian) before my current mega-game reaches the point (started in 1860 at the moment, after 2 weeks of many, many hours of gameplay!)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 30, 2012, 09:10:54 AM
It's a 3D model I knocked up yesterday afternoon (tube trains have rather simple shapes). They are slightly larger than your hand-drawn ones but I'm not 100% happy with the scale yet. I might go slightly larger still. I'm hoping once I've got the scale sorted properly the rest of the stock should be fairly rapid to adapt and render.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 30, 2012, 10:23:49 AM
Kieron,

if you started in 1860, you're only 3 years off needing Underground trains ;-)

Hood,

the best way to check the scale is: go to the BR Mk. I file in Blender, and select the underframe. Export as Collada, making sure to export only selected. Import this into your new file in a layer not used by anything else. The BR Mk. I underframe should be 19.35m, whereas the 1995 stock cars should be 17.77m (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1995_Stock)). So, to get the scale, calculate the length of the 1995 stock cars as a proportion of the BR Mk. 1 (17.77 / 19.35 = 0.918...), and scale your imported underframe by this figure (0.918) in the y direction. This should then be the correct length for your 1995 stock cars. When exporting, you can just disable your scale comparison underframe layer.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on January 30, 2012, 12:16:39 PM
James,

You don't need a collada to do that. Append/link objects does the same thing much easier.

On scaling, it looks better if you stick to exact fractions of 16 in order to get overlaps with next vehicles looking good too.  Besides, it was more the width and height I was going to vary, more to make it look better rather than strict accuracy.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on January 30, 2012, 09:02:34 PM
For some reason part of my post went missing... Started in 1750, now in 1860. Although I had to cheat and start using underground railways in about 1840... :p But proper underground stock won't be needed until 1890 or :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on January 30, 2012, 10:28:34 PM
The Hood,

hmm - I didn't know about this append/link thing - can you tell me more? But I am not sure how something other than the correct scale will look better than something with the correct scale - can you give some example, perhaps?

Kieron,

if by "proper" you mean deep level, then yes ;-)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 03, 2012, 10:11:33 PM
For some reason part of my post went missing... Started in 1750, now in 1860. Although I had to cheat and start using underground railways in about 1840... :p But proper underground stock won't be needed until 1890 or :)

Better get a move on then - I'm working backwards in the timeline...

The Hood,

hmm - I didn't know about this append/link thing - can you tell me more? But I am not sure how something other than the correct scale will look better than something with the correct scale - can you give some example, perhaps?

File -> Append/Link -> select the file and then object you want. That's all there is to it...

In terms of scaling, the height and width are already larger than they should be for vehicle length so the sprites aren't too small but the vehicles have a sensible length for a tile. I discovered this on my first contribution, the GWR King, which I drew to scale and then had to compress along its length to fit with Kieron's stuff. That's all I've done with the tube stock, and I prefer my latest results.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 04, 2012, 01:06:21 PM
Here's the 1992 stock. I've drawn LUL and NSE (originally used on Waterloo & City line) liveries so experimental can take advantage of these. Only the LUL version will be in standard but I'll put the png on SVN in any case.

(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2357/lu1992.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/lu1992.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 04, 2012, 01:07:27 PM
Lovely!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 04, 2012, 02:11:51 PM
And the new 2009 stock. It's great how tube trains are so similar it barely takes any time to adapt a model and create a different train!

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9537/2009stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/2009stock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 04, 2012, 02:20:22 PM
I do love that aspect of things, too. Did you ever wonder why I produced so many LBSCR tank locomotives...? ;-)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 04, 2012, 02:41:02 PM
And the 1983 stock. I make that less than half an hour for a whole train!

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2894/1983stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/1983stock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: AP on February 04, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
Looking good. What's the position of pak-gb and player-colour liveries? My closest tube trains are on the Isle of Wight, where I recall at least one set being painted bright blue with dinosaurs on it...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 04, 2012, 03:19:07 PM
Those are the 1938 stock trains (the oldest trains running in regular service in the UK by some considerable margin!), which I think are now running in a heritage style livery similar to their original London Transport red, but were in Network South-East livery (and indeed, the "dinosaur" livery) for a while, too.

Like the 1983 stock, too!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 04, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
1973 stock next, in both original and current refurbished livery

(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/512/1973stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/1973stock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on February 04, 2012, 06:12:13 PM
wow, you are on fire today.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 04, 2012, 06:55:09 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on February 05, 2012, 12:41:15 AM
Excellent :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 05, 2012, 12:52:42 PM
Kieron,

while you're here - you wouldn't mind uploading your Metropolitan locomotive/carriage and District unit .blends, would you, so that I can adapt them to make some earlier Metropolitan vehicles?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 05, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Next up: 1967 stock, again in original and refurbished forms:

(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7572/1967stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/1967stock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 05, 2012, 08:53:07 PM
Lovely!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 05, 2012, 09:20:28 PM
And the 1959 stock - only one livery used (with any longevity) as far as I know.

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5293/1959stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/1959stock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 05, 2012, 10:06:06 PM
I do like that one.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on February 06, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
Quote
while you're here - you wouldn't mind uploading your Metropolitan locomotive/carriage and District unit .blends, would you, so that I can adapt them to make some earlier Metropolitan vehicles?
At present no, laptop I did renders on is almost totally kaput. I though (hoped?) I'd got everything sent to The Hood before :s
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 06, 2012, 01:28:31 AM
Ahh, no, alas, he didn't have the Underground stock, from what I understand.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 08, 2012, 10:34:35 PM
Here's the 1938 tube stock. I've also done versions for the BR Class 483 (NSE and the current heritage livery with yellow warning panels) which were refurbished from the 1938 stock in 1989 and are still running on the Isle fo Whight. Before anyone shouts about inaccuracies, I know the 483s only run in two car units but I intend to allow trailers to be converted too to allow longer trains. In experimental, these should probably represent an upgrade but also bear in mind the 483 version is third rail only while the tube originals were 4th rail operated.

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1066/1938stock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/1938stock.jpg/)

As for london underground blends, I don't have these - thankfully I have most of the others though.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 08, 2012, 11:06:30 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 11, 2012, 02:08:07 PM
1940 Waterloo and city stock - in Southern green, BR Blue and NSE liveries:

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3482/1940waterloocity.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/1940waterloocity.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 11, 2012, 02:27:53 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ercsim on February 16, 2012, 09:25:29 AM
where can I get the underground trains and tracks?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 17, 2012, 10:23:09 PM
@Ercsim - tracks and stations are in SVN so should be available in the latest nightly. The trains are currently still in development - currently not 100% aligned properly or balanced, or with correct in game properties. I plan on uploading the tube trains once I have done the full tube timeline and balanced them. That means I will need to do 1914 stock, 1906 Gate stock, 1903 stock, 1900 stock and loco, 1890 stock and loco.

Next step of progress however is the 1923 "standard" stock which comes in the original red and cream as well as a slightly later all red livery (not sure on exact dates). Remarkably, these trains remained in use until 1990 as they were bought by BR in 1967 and converted to third rail for use on the Isle of Wight (like the 1938 stock which replaced them). In this guise as the class 485/486, I have drawn them in BR Blue, Blue-Grey and NSE liveries.

(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7837/standardstock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/standardstock.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 17, 2012, 11:59:32 PM
Wonderful! I think that I remember travelling on one of these on the Isle of Wight as a child, although they were in the process of being replaced by the 1938 stock at the time, I think.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 19, 2012, 06:59:02 PM
Going further back in time, the Watford Joint Stock:

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/720/watfordjointstock.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/watfordjointstock.jpg/)

Things get a bit hard to find the information on the internet for these old trains but as far as I can tell these were ordered in 1914 but not delivered until 1920 because of World War I. They are also very similar to 1914 and 1915 stock used on the tube (which did enter service from 1914 on), but these stocks were only motor cars and were used with older trailer cars. For standard at least I intend these to be available from 1914 onwards. 

The other problem (from my point) of view is liveries. I gather the joint stock was painted in LNWR livery - hence the brown and cream. I have no idea what other liveries they ever got painted in, or what the 1914 and 1915 stock were in - black and white photos don't give much away and there are very few of them anyway! Same goes for the older stocks I am planning on doing, so if anyone knows anything about this, let me know!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 19, 2012, 08:21:32 PM
Looking lovely!

There is some information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_London_Railway_1903_stock_motor_car.png) about the livery of motor cars from 1903 used on the Central London, to replace the earlier locomotives. The City & South London Railway livery is well known, as examples of both locomotive and carriages are preserved.

It seems that some of the early stock was painted a dark maroon livery: see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ltmd-sleetloco-01.jpg). This coincides with my recollection of the colour in which the models of the very old stock at the London Transport Museum are painted.

There is some fairly good information on Wikipedia generally about older stock, which I imagine that you have probably found by now, but not much other than the above on liveries, which would have varied as between the different companies.

However, by about 1907, most of the Underground companies were under joint ownership, and would have had similar liveries to each other - probably the two-tone colours for the Central London and the dark maroon for the Yerkes group would be my guess. The LNWR livery for the joint stock is correct.

Incidentally, you might gather more information from a visit to the next Acton depot open day, which is on the week-end of the 10th and 11th of March this year.

Edit: Not entirely sure about the dark red/maroon, actually, as the photograph appears to show a "London Transport" logo (and that colour, I think, was used by LT for non-passenger stock). Perhaps go with the earliest livery of the Standard stock for the earlier vehicles for the time being? It seems to fit that drawing of the Central London Railway and the black and white photographs showing Underground trains of the time to be painted in a two-tone livery with the higher parts of the carriages being in a lighter shade than the lower parts.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on February 19, 2012, 09:37:32 PM
these might be of interest
http://callumjames.blogspot.com/2010/06/early-london-underground-card.html
http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/grcw.html
http://beno.org.uk/train/london.html
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on February 19, 2012, 10:04:26 PM
Thanks. From what I can tell I there were two liveries on the Yerkes lines - maroon and two tone red and cream. Central London Railway seemed to be two-tone throughout. City & south London Railway is easier - wooden with yellow locos. Any more advice still welcome!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on February 19, 2012, 10:19:04 PM
There seems to have been a red/maroon GWR 57xx and London Underground livery for BR Mk.I/II carriages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztWyrfYBvE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztWyrfYBvE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWLHJdD2fKk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWLHJdD2fKk)

all black and white, unfortunately.
http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/underground.htm (http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/underground.htm)

incidentally, have you found this site?: http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Trains&action=display&thread=18285 (http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Trains&action=display&thread=18285)
I'm looking through it myself currently.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 19, 2012, 10:29:44 PM
The Underground liveried Mk. Is and IIs were never used in service in that livery - they are, I think, support vehicles for heritage railtours, purchased from the mainline railways in recent years for that specific purpose.

The LT pannier tanks, however, were real: they were bought from the GWR for shunting and freight operations, and remained in use until 1971 - three years after the end of steam on British Railways.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on February 19, 2012, 11:19:48 PM
There seems to be a version that is entirely red, including the roof
and there is a weathered standard, but it looks like it would have been cream/red

http://www.flickr.com/photos/crashcalloway/2337793857/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/3881450685/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/6284509762/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickstransportpics/5752540492/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42537798@N02/6832030643/
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on February 19, 2012, 11:35:31 PM
Good research! The one that is red including the roof is 1938 stock (personally, I prefer the grey roof); the Standard stock is in the two tone livery already used, as above.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 04, 2012, 09:43:08 PM
Finally, some new ones to show off. Yerkes lines tube stock from 1906-1920:

-bottom pair: original 1906 gate-end stock
-middle pair: 1914 stock driving vehicles with 1906 gate-end stock
-top pair: 1906 stock converted to air-door operation (1920) - this is really an upgrade to the 1906 stock but the trailers are similar enough to 1920 stock so I won't draw those.

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5747/yerkestubestock.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/yerkestubestock.png/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on March 04, 2012, 10:05:30 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: greenling on March 04, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
Cool the New modells from the Underground trains.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 05, 2012, 10:27:42 PM
Edging further back in time, we now have the Central London Railway stock (from top to bottom):
-Original 1900 stock with electric loco
-Original 1900 stock with 1903 Driving EMU cars on each end
-Original 1900 stock with 1915 Driving EMU cars on each end

(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2100/clrtubestock.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/clrtubestock.png/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on March 05, 2012, 11:57:45 PM
Gosh. Most impressive, and impressively comprehensive!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Milko on March 06, 2012, 08:15:22 AM
Hello The Hood

Beautiful, also realized in a short time. A great job.

Giuseppe
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 07, 2012, 10:20:35 PM
Another small addition - Waterloo & City original stock from 1898.

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6673/wcr1898.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/wcr1898.jpg/)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on March 07, 2012, 11:03:37 PM
I'm running out of adjectives of praise...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: waerth on March 18, 2012, 03:51:30 PM
I will overdo you James:

May all gods, deities and spirits ever having been worshipped by humankind bless the Hood!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 18, 2012, 08:50:27 PM
I will overdo you James:

May all gods, deities and spirits ever having been worshipped by humankind bless the Hood!


OK, calm down, it's just some pixels on a screen at the end of the day... :)

Here's the oldest tube train, the 1890 City & South London Railway locomotive and "padded cell" carriages:

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3964/cslr1890.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/19/cslr1890.jpg/)

Now it's time to balance these before adding them to SVN.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on March 18, 2012, 09:46:16 PM
Ahh, splendid! I have some data on the C&SLR locomotives from the Acton Depot open day: see here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14730981@N08/6978488847/in/set-72157629573765473). I'm not sure whether you already had that from a different source, but better have too much than not enough!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 18, 2012, 10:09:01 PM
That's very useful. I've just wasted the last hour trying to find technical data for them all, and I can find speed data for modern tube stock no problem but I can't find any power data whatsoever (not even for the current stock!). Any leads are therefore very useful.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on March 18, 2012, 10:40:07 PM
you could probably work it backwards if you load them in experimental, adding just enough power to get them to hit their top speed in the configuration they would have been in.


My guess: At most, you might be looking at 400hp per motor car for the 2009 stock. And I think even that is quite generous.

Three points lead me to believe they don't have very high power per motor car.
- Most of the sets seem to have 2:1 or 1:1 ratio of motor to trailer cars. Meaning lots of weaker motors.
- The carriages are fairly light.
- They have a fairly low top speed.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Ashley on March 25, 2012, 11:48:52 AM
You've done a great job with these, a very comprehensive set indeed! I'm looking forward to having them to play with.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on March 25, 2012, 09:21:51 PM
Thanks. Unfortunately this release seems to have gone the way of most tube upgrades and is running behind schedule. I've now got or guessed data for all of the units and sorted the days out to give correct configurations but I still need to do power and cost balancing...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on April 02, 2012, 05:59:31 PM
I feel we are in need of some good news: balancing and alignment is complete and the set is now being uploaded into SVN! I'm planning an official pakset release soon so I'd be grateful if people could test these and let me know of any problems prior to a release.

For the standard pakset only a limited selection of the liveries are available (1 per train) but all the images are in SVN so you can use them if you prefer.

@jamespetts - ask me if you need any help suggesting dwell time/upgrade/livery details for experimental.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Milko on April 02, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
Hello The Hood

Only a word:

Thanks  :)

It's a great addition.

Giuseppe
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: ӔO on April 02, 2012, 09:52:51 PM
whoops, wrong place.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on April 21, 2012, 02:49:39 PM
Some people on the French forum also seem to be doing the Paris metro: see here (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8460).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 11, 2014, 08:01:29 AM
Resurrecting this topic ahead of the second stage: subsurface line stock.

I wasn't planning any more locos as the A-class and E-class are already there, covering the two most prominent basic designs. For experimental though I suppose you might want a few more liveries (including A-class in District livery if that was different?).

Here is the list of plans as it stands, if anyone has any further comments or ideas?

S Stock   2010
D78 Stock   1980
C69 Stock   1969
A60 Stock   1961
R Stock   1949
O/P Stock   1937
T Stock   1927
K Stock   1927
G Stock   1923
F Stock   1920
Met Circle Stock   1913
Met 1906 Electric Loco   1906
District 1905 Electric Loco   1905
B Stock   1905
A Stock   1903
Met Jubilee Stock   1887
District Stock   1871
Met Ashbury 8-wheel stock   1864
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 11, 2014, 12:35:52 PM
I think that that list is missing the Q38 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_Q_Stock) stock.

We could also probably do with one or two more Metropolitan steam locomotives (perhaps the C Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway_C_Class) (1891; this was essentially the same design as the SECR Q Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SER_Q_class) of 1881, so could be made available in multiple liveries in Experimental), the F Class (http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L2567&enum=LE130&pnum=14&maxp=18) (1901), the H2 Class (http://www.lner.info/locos/H/h2.shtml) (1920; this class moved to the LNER after nationalisation of London Transport in 1933) and the K Class (http://www.lner.info/locos/L/l2.shtml) (1925; this also moved to the LNER in 1933)) as well, as you suggested, as a Metropolitan District Railway livery of the A class (which needs to be re-scaled).

We could also do with brake carriages for the existing Metropolitan bogie and dreadnought carriages. On the subject of carriages, I have some information that you might find of use from Hamilton Ellis, "Railway Carriages in the British Isles from 1830 to 1914" (George, Allen & Unwin) at pp. 76-7,

Quote from: Hamilton Ellis
The Metropolitan Railway carrriages proper, designed by Robet Burnett in the middle sixties, after the Great Western had ceased from working all but a few of the underground trains, were of standard gauge... though the relatively high roofs and gas equipment, initiated by the Great Western, were retained. Ther were two varieties, four- and eight-wheeled; the latter, which were much the commoner, and were built over a period of at least eighteen years without improvement, had a certain amount of sideplay to the axles...

The Metropolitan four-wheel carriages were at first close-coupled in pairs and a specimen of 1870 is illustrated in the endpapers. Each body was 20ft long and contained three first-class or four second- or third-class compartments. The eight-wheelers were identical as to coach-work and just twice as long. Width over mouldings was 8ft. 3in. and the maximum inside height 7ft. 1in. Iron-spoked wheels, 3ft. 6in. in diameter, were used, with 5ft. steel springs. The frames were of iron.

A features of the bodies, which persisted throughout the existence of the Metropolitan as a separate undertaking, was the rounding of the tops of the doors. Burnet claimed that this strengthened the door frame, but his chief object was the protection of the doors from damage in the not unknown event of their being left open during running. Teh round top just cleared the tunnel arch with the door open at right-angles....

The Metropolitan first-class compartments seated four passengers on each side, with intervening elbows, but the thirds, and even the seconds, were rather deplorable. The former had low-backed wooden seats with the partitions only 4ft. 10 in. apart, and the latter at first differed merely by having thin cushions of the seats and a strap squab along the top of the back. Handrails - forerunners of the too familiar straps and grips in the open cars of our time - were bracketed to the roofs.

[Hamilton Ellis continues to discuss the coal gas lighting which was considered "brilliant" at the time]

...Metropolitan close-coupled stock, it will be seen, lacked the short side buffers of the suburban stock described previously; there were central buffers with Sterne's patent pneumatic rubber springs, with short coupling links close to them on each side. The end buffers were connected to a large transvers compensating beam attached to the drawbar, which had two Sterne springs....

A prominent feature of the bodies on Burnett's Metropolitan carriages, in addition to the round-topped doors, was the provision of small toplights to the quarterlights. These were copied by several railways; the Midland took them up as late as the nineties and built them into the beginning of the [20th] century. District Railway coaches were very similar to those of teh Metropolitan, but were exclusively four-wheeled. Some of the old Metropolitan carriages had very long careers. Two eight-wheelers of the original design, dating from teh early eighties, were to be seen on the Quainton Road and Brill line until the beginning of the nineteen-thirties.

[Hamilton Ellis continues to describe the longevity of some of these carriages, then moves on briefly to the North London Railway carriages of the time, which were of some interest due to their being formed into block trains]

Illustrations of the four wheeled type (as used mainly on the District but sometimes also the Metropolitan Railway) are in the endpapers of the Hamilton Ellis work, whilst a photograph of one of the 8 wheel carriages of 1866 vintage in latter days (without its roof-mounted gas tank that looked from the outside a little like a clerestory) is to be found on p. 406 of "The History of British Railway Carriages 1900-1953" (David Jenkinson, Pendragon, ISBN 1-899816-03-8), who notes that these carriages were nicknamed at the time "Long Charleys", although they are also referred to as "Long Toms" by R. W. Kidner in "A Short History of the Railway Carriage" (Oakwood Press) at p. 93, which also illustrates one.

Jenkinson's work also contains a number of useful illustrations and details of some of the stock that you have listed above, which I mention in case you are short of information about such items.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 11, 2014, 04:34:11 PM
As for the Q38 it appeared to me to be basically the same as the O/P/R stock which is in the list and overlaps time-wise, so it didn't seem to make sense duplicating it.

Early carriages - can you post any images as they seem hard to come by on the internet.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 11, 2014, 06:40:21 PM
Hmm - I do not wish to infringe the author's copyright in the images, and I am not sure whether it has expired or not. Would you like me to produce the hauled carriages of early times? It might be worth adding North London Railway stock whilst we are about it.

As to the R/Q vehicles, their history is a rather complicated one, but I think that the Q38 motors were used in conjunction with a whole variety of earlier stock which was retrofitted with automatic doors and designated "Q stock", whereas the R stock motors (and "R38" motors to which the Q38 motors were converted) were used with R stock trailers. One would not need different graphics for them (although there would need to be red/white liveries), but it would be odd having "R stock" introduced in 1938. I admit, Q stock is not an easy thing to deal with in Simutrans.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 11, 2014, 07:01:29 PM

Perhaps it's best if you do the coaching stock, you seem to have a good collection of references which I don't have - although I've already done 8-wheeler Met Ashbury coaches from 1863.


I'll produce graphics for the EMUs I listed above - it gives enough of a selection for standard. You can then reuse these for various upgrades in experimental if that helps.


On second thoughts I will produce more Met steam locos. I'll do livery variants based on your A class.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 11, 2014, 07:54:04 PM
Ahh, lovely, thank you for those. Would you mind uploading the .blend file? It would be useful to produce an earlier variant (which I will code as a livery variant) showing the gas holder on the roof, and it would be useful to use these as a base for the 4-wheel versions used on the District.

As for the EMUs - the graphics on your list will probably suffice, as there were no outward differences between the Q38 and early R motor cars.

In respect of A class livery variants; do you plan to re-scale it first? It does need re-scaling, I think. I can find the correct length if that would help.

Edit: Some interesting information here (http://kesr.org.uk/images/stories/railway-stock/coaches/vintage/District_Railway_coach_130409.jpg) about District Railway stock, including an example of the later brown livery carried (the original livery being varnished, no doubt very similar, therefore, in appearance to the Metropolitan livery).

Edit 2: There is also some rather useful information here (http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/link.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1981/539&IXexpand=servicedesign).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 11, 2014, 09:08:30 PM
Have just emailed you the blend files as they are too large to upload here.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 11, 2014, 09:18:02 PM
Splendid, thank you.

Edit: Hmm - I notice that these have the wrong roof profile, sadly: they appear to have a semi-elliptical roof rather than an arc roof. I am wondering whether it would be easier to start again or adapt this one...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 11, 2014, 11:14:13 PM
I have now adapted the graphics to give the correct roof profile, the later LT brown livery, windows at the ends of the brake carriages, the radial trucks in the correct position and other minor matters. Here are the images:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-third.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-third-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-brake-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-brake-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-brake-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-ashbury-1863-brake-front-lt.png)

The .blend files are available on my Github repository. I have renamed the files using "met-" instead of "mr-" so as to avoid confusion with the Midland Railway, all of whose vehicles are named using the "mr" abbreviation. This also makes the carriages consistent with the existing Metropolitan railway vehicles in the game.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 12, 2014, 08:04:45 PM
Excellent. At the other end of the timeline, the recent S-stock:

(http://s21.postimg.org/w88mx3ktz/s_stock.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 12, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
Ahh, splendid. Evocative as the older units are, the S stock manages, chiefly on account of its superior ride quality, to be considerably more comfortable than much of what it replaces.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 12, 2014, 08:57:55 PM
D-stock. I've also done the refurbished LUL corporate livery variant for experimental.

(http://s27.postimg.org/jo467hxir/d_stock.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 12, 2014, 09:19:00 PM
Here are some of the 4-wheel Metropolitan District Railway carriages from the early years of its existence, in both original varnished teak and later painted brown liveries:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-third-brown.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-third.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-brake-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-brake-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-brake-brown-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/district-4-wheel-brake-brown-front.png)



I also have discovered that the earlier Metropolitan 8-wheel carriages that I showed in my last post were not correctly scaled: even taking into account the distortion factor of 1.25 in the x and z dimensions (the x and z dimensions being at 1.25 the scale of the y dimension), the carriages were still too tall and too wide based on the measurements given in the quote above. I have now re-scaled them, and the graphics visible above show this new scale.



Also, good work on the D-Stock.



Edit: Incidentally, I thought that this picture that I took about two years ago might be of some interest in this discussion:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6978492203_83f3d8b277_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/bCEAB6)Metropolitan Railway "A" Class 4-4-0 (7" gauge live steam model) (https://flic.kr/p/bCEAB6) by James E. Petts (https://www.flickr.com/people/14730981@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 13, 2014, 08:48:08 PM
Excellent. And here's the C-stock (again, refurbished LUL livery available too)

(http://s23.postimg.org/tgm5f444b/c_stock.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 14, 2014, 12:16:19 AM
A timely addition, as it makes its farewell tour but next month, I believe.

One small thing: did they not have front cab doors a little darker than the surrounding?

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2290/2740931803_a489034cd3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/5bcZwT)C Stock at West Brompton (https://flic.kr/p/5bcZwT) by bowroaduk (https://www.flickr.com/people/24772733@N05/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 14, 2014, 05:31:38 PM
On some photos it seems to have a different colour end door as you show but on others (such as the one I was working from) it isn't noticeable. I think I will add it - it makes for a bit more interest than a plain white train.


EDIT: A-stock done. These are all looking a bit similar now, but I suppose they do in real life too. The re-done C stock has a gangway door looking a bit like the one you can see in the A-stock below.



(http://s28.postimg.org/5j1j9u75p/a_stock.png)

Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 14, 2014, 09:48:46 PM
Yes, they do look rather similar in reality - and I agree with you about the inconsistency in appearance of the door on different units, although I always remember the darker door, which I think looks a little better.

A-stock looking good, too. Would you like me to re-liver and re-scale the A-class since that was one of mine originally? Would you like me to decide on the appropriate shade for Metropolitan red/purple or would you like to suggest an RGB value? I think that I am correct in surmising that the District Railway only ever had the one type of locomotive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_Railway_steam_locomotives) which was nearly identical to the Metropolitan A-class (and which I shall produce as a livery variant of it), which had a green livery - presumably the basis for the line's colour scheme now.

(http://basilicafields.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/jack_hill.jpg)

Incidentally, I have found some interesting information on 4-wheel carriages produced for the Metropolitan in the 1880s, the "Jubilee" carriages (http://basilicafields.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/the-metropolitan-railway-jubilees/), longer than the 4-wheelers used on the District. The District, always financially less well off than the Metropolitan, appears to have retained its original coaching stock until electrification in the first few years of the 20th century - I cannot find any information on later carriages, although I suppose that there might be some.

Edit: Here are the "Jubilee" carriages of the 1880s, 27ft. 6in and 5 compartments long (very cramped conditions!):

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-third.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-third-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-brake-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-brake-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-brake-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-brake-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-jubilee-brake-front-lt.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 15, 2014, 05:36:01 PM
Excellent again. Quite happy for you to do all the steam locos and coaching stock. I'll work backwards through the EMUs and we'll meet in the middle somewhere. As far as I was aware the District steam locos were essentially identical to the Met A Class but green, so a livery variant is best.


EDIT


O and P stocks (a single vehicle type as I've drawn them as they are so similar) in red and R stock in white. For experimental the R stock should have a red livery too using the OP graphics - visually pretty indistinguishable but a different arrangement of motor cars apparently.



(http://s15.postimg.org/x1wg8omyz/opr_stock.png)

Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 15, 2014, 11:57:39 PM
Splendid! Any thoughts on the Metropolitan colour scheme? Some of the existing locomotives drawn by Kieron have a purplish colour, but I am not sure what the colours in Blender were, and apparently the .blends have been lost.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 16, 2014, 06:50:16 AM
Go with what you think looks right. I think there is just the E class and the Met Vickers that Kieron drew, but both may need redrawing/scaling? I certainly don't have the blends
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on May 16, 2014, 07:00:15 AM
I've been looking for a while now and can't find them either :(
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 17, 2014, 06:52:42 PM
Here are the Metropolitan Railway bogie carriages of 1898 - there are already graphics representing these in the pakset, but the .blends are lost, they are not to scale and are missing brake vehicles and multiple liveries. Old:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/master/london-underground/images/met-bogie-third.png)

New:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-brake-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-brake-lt-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-brake-lt-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-brake-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-third-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-third.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 18, 2014, 03:17:21 PM
I have now re-scaled and re-livered the Metropolitan A-Class:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-district.png)
Metropolitan District Railway

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-met-green.png)
Metropolitan Railway (early green)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-met-red.png)
Metropolitan Railway (midcared red)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-met-late.png)
Metropolitan Railway (later period)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-lt.png)
London Transport

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-lnwr-red.png)
London & North-Western Railway (Southern Division red)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-lnwr-black.png)
London & Noth-Western Railway (black)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-mr-green.png)
Midland Railway (early green)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-a-class-mr.png)
Midland Railway (lake)

I suggest that the Metropolitan Railway midcared red version is used for Standard, as this is probably the most well known livery and the one in which the sole preserved example is displayed.

Edit: For reference, the Metropolitan midcared livery colour in Blender is (in HSV): 0.965, 0.770, 0.325.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: greenling on May 18, 2014, 03:28:40 PM
Hello Jamespetts
The New Trains they you have be make Looks Very gerat out. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 18, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
Thank you, Greenling. These are not all new: some are re-rendered images of existing vehicles in the pakset (such as the bogie carriages and the A Class locomotive), but the earlier carriages are new.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 18, 2014, 11:21:32 PM
Here are the push-pull trailer conversions for the Ashbury bogie carriages in varnished teak and painted brown liveries (these are probably only useful for Experimental):

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-push-pull.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-push-pull-lt.png)

Here is the Metropolitan C Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway_C_Class) locomotive, a close relative of the SECR Q Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SER_Q_class) and really rather similar to the Midland Railway 1833 class, which is already in the pakset:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-c-class.png)

Incidentally, what is the plan with the Dreadnought carriages and T-stock? According to our current arrangement, with me doing steam hauled stock and locomotives and you (The Hood) working on multiple units, I am set to do the dreadnoughts and you are set to do the T-stock. This seems unwise, as the T-stock was closely based on the dreadnoughts; any thoughts as to what best to do with these vehicles?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 19, 2014, 08:36:43 PM
Good work! It probably makes sense for you to do the T stock in that case. It was next on my list but I haven't started. I'll stick to the District EMUs.


PS Do you intend doing the SECR Q1 Class as a separate loco or a livery variant? We don't have any SECR locos at the minute I don't think but no reason not to in the future.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 19, 2014, 11:53:12 PM
Very well - I shall do what later became known as the T-stock (although that was a London Transport name for it - the Metropolitan called it the "MV/MW Stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway_electric_multiple_units#W.2C_MV_.26_MW_stock)" (MV for vacuum braked stock or MW for air braked stock), and I generally take the view that it is best to use contemporaneous names rather than retronyms where possible (although we have made an exception, I am aware, for BR built rail vehicles later assigned TOPS designations)). I shall also do the multiple unit conversions of the Ashbury stock that I do not think was on your list.

As to the SECR Q Class, it is not an entirely easy question whether it should be a livery variant, as it had a totally different name (and, of course, the Metropolitan version had condensing apparatus). My plan was not to do SECR things for quite a while, the NLR, SR, LSWR, GWR, GNR and LNER all taking priority (the SECR being functionally too similar to the Brighton line in which I have produced a full timeline, and having the added complication of having merged in the late 19th century), and that is not counting the more pressing non-railway and even non-pakset priorities such as 'buses, assisting Giuseppe with aircraft and much balancing/coding. My general approach in respect of railway vehicles has been to do batches of the same railway company's vehicles to give a comprehensive time-line of that railway company (as we are currently doing with the Metropolitan and District railways, and London Transport's continuation of them after nationalisation) so as to have a coherent set. This means that there is plenty of time to decide what to do about the SECR Q Class unless somebody else has a burning desire to produce an SECR/LCDR/SER set any time soon.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 20, 2014, 01:15:04 PM
Sounds good to me. I agree MV/MW stock is preferable to T stock.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 24, 2014, 06:52:37 PM
I have now finished the graphics for the Metropolitan Railway motorised stock of 1906, a conversion of the Ashbury bogie stock of 1898. Graphics for this were already in the pakset, but, as the .blends had been lost, it was not possible to modify them to different liveries, so it was better to start again.

Old:
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-motor-third.png)

New:
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-motorised-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-motorised-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-motorised-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-bogie-motorised-front-lt.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 25, 2014, 04:01:17 PM
I have now added the .dat files for all of the above items, together with consequential changes, here (https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/commit/c5961deef05602d4fc047c4f88a0e1a6ae53cbcc).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 25, 2014, 11:40:20 PM
I have now completed the graphics and .dat files for the Metropolitan Dreadnought carriages and MV stock. As before, there were existing Dreadnought carriages, but the .blend files have been lost, so they have been recreated from scratch.

Here is the old Dreadnought carriage:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/master/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-third.png)

Here are the new Dreadnought carriages:

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-brake-front-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-brake-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-brake-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-brake-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-brake-rear.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-third-lt.png[/img

[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-dreadnought-third.png)

Here are the MV Stock motor cars (the trailers use the same graphics as the Dreadnought carriages):

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-mv-stock-motor-front-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-mv-stock-motor-front.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-mv-stock-motor-rear-lt.png)

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-mv-stock-motor-rear.png)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 26, 2014, 10:53:00 AM
Fantastic - I'm afraid progress is rather slow at my end as I've had to spend most of the bank holiday weekend reinstalling my whole computer after various network problems. Still getting everything sorted but nice to see progress when I came back on here.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 26, 2014, 11:04:30 AM
Fantastic - I'm afraid progress is rather slow at my end as I've had to spend most of the bank holiday weekend reinstalling my whole computer after various network problems. Still getting everything sorted but nice to see progress when I came back on here.

That doesn't sound very fun - I hope that you manage to get that fixed satisfactorily.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 26, 2014, 11:20:06 AM
Mostly there but I'm having a few issues getting GIT up and running again.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 26, 2014, 11:29:29 AM
Mostly there but I'm having a few issues getting GIT up and running again.

What's the trouble?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 26, 2014, 11:42:38 AM
Think I've sorted it. There's a new GIT interface for Windows which required all sorts of other updates to my system. Seems to be importing both my and your repositories fine at the minute though.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 26, 2014, 11:50:42 AM
Splendid.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 30, 2014, 02:00:42 PM
Right, I'm now up and running again and working through the earlier District Railway EMUs. No screenshots yet though. James, what are you working on next? I've got all the District EMUs and the electric loco covered, which leaves the remaining Met locos (F,G,H,K, 1906 Electric) and 1902 and 1913 Met EMUs. Unfortunately I can't much on the appearance of the 1902 and 1913 EMUs, is there anything in any of your books? Finally if you have any ideas on livery for the District "A" stock (wooden - so possibly varnished wood like the carriages, or painted deep red like the "B" stock?) or the original District electric locos (red like the contemporaneous "B" stock?).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 30, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
Hamlton Ellis records that the District Railway's electric stock was, "painted scarlet, with the top-quarter strip in maroon and bearing the railway's title", although "a few cars were maroon or dark red" (p. 261). The scarlet should be the same as the later London Transport livery, save that the latter did not have the maroon strip.

As to the District Railway electric locomotive, used between Mansion House and Earl's Court on the Outer Circle and later between Ealing and Barking on the Ealing to Southend services, Hamilton Ellis (p. 262) records that these were always painted scarlet, having roofs of a "mouse grey" colour.

Jenkinson has a photograph of the early Metropolitan Railway clerestory multiple unit carriages at Baker Street in 1910 at p. 407, although it is not the clearest. There are some further photographs and diagrams on pp. 244-245; would you like me to try to scan these and send them to you?

My next work will be on Metropolitan Railway steam locomotives, particularly the Burnett 0-6-0 tank of 1868: although not long used on the Metropolitan, these were sold to the Taff Vale and (presumably) had many good years of use there. It is useful, as there are not currently any 0-6-0 tanks before the 1870s in the pakset, and 0-6-0 tanks are cost effective locomotives with low axle loads which some players, particularly in Experimental where axle load counts, may well find useful.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on May 30, 2014, 03:30:24 PM
That sounds useful thanks. A scan of the photos/diagrams would be great.-
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 30, 2014, 04:07:51 PM
Now sent by e-mail.

Edit: Another picture of the early Metropolitan stock can be found here (http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L2560&enum=LE130&pnum=17&maxp=18).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on May 30, 2014, 09:23:12 PM
I have now largely completed the Burnett tank (save that the graphics are as yet unprocessed):

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/Pak128.Britain-blends/master/met-burnett-tank-met-green_S.png)

Unfortunately, however, the axle load was greater than I had anticipated. It does have a high tractive effort for a small locomotive of its era, however, so might well be useful for lines with steep gradients.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on June 02, 2014, 09:15:28 PM
Was hoping to have the District EMUs done tonight. All blends and dats done but then I found a couple of odd things in the latest versions of blender and GIMP that hampered my work flow and thought I'd just mention them here as I've had to revert to older versions of both.

Blender 2.70 (and as far as I can tell from 2.68) renders images with the black background faded in rather than clear cut. This makes replacing with the background colour virtually impossible automatically.

GIMP 2.8 only allows save as xcf rather than png so that means exporting a copy of the file instead. Not impossible to work around but means around twice as many clicks and some typing when editing pngs at this stage.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on June 02, 2014, 09:42:16 PM
I have had problems with the later versions of Blender, too, so have stuck to earlier versions for the time being (2.65). The blending into the background, though, is that not an option that can be turned off ("full sample") - or is it different in 2.70? Did you have the problem of everything coming out very pale that I had with Blender 2.69?

In any event, I have now produced processed graphics for the various Metropolitan Railway locomotives not yet done, excluding the D class (which was fairly insignificant and not very successful) and the K Class (which was closely related to the SR/SECR N and River Classes, both of which I intend to do at some point, and was planning on doing them together, along with some other SR locomotives), which are as follows:

Burnett tank
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-burnett-tank-met-green.png)
Metropolitan green


(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-burnett-tank-met-red.png)
Metropolitan red


E Class

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-class-e.png)
Original - as in current pakset, .blend sadly lost

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-e-class-met-red.png)
Metropolitan red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-e-class-met-late.png)
Metropolitan late red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-e-class-lt.png)
London Transport

F Class

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-f-class-met-red.png)
Metropolitan red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-f-class-met-late.png)
Metropolitan late red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-f-class-lt.png)
London Transport

G class

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-g-class-met-red.png)
Metropolitan red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-g-class-lner.png)
LNER black

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-g-class-austerity.png)
Austerity

H Class

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-h-class-met-late.png)
Metropolitan red

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-h-class-lner.png)
LNER black

(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/half-heights/london-underground/images/met-h-class-austerity.png)
Austerity
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on June 03, 2014, 08:22:46 PM
Here are the District EMUs:

(http://s8.postimg.org/jrz26sf5x/district_emus.jpg)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on June 03, 2014, 10:05:08 PM
Very nice! What did you do to solve the Blender troubles?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Junna on August 31, 2014, 12:19:56 PM
What happened to this nice effort, and additionally, where are the uploads of what has hitherto been finished for a while?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on August 31, 2014, 12:38:51 PM
It's not quite finished. Summer got in the way. I still plan to do a few more Metropolitan early EMUs and electric engines. Hopefully in the next month time then I'll release.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on November 21, 2014, 10:54:45 PM
Finally, some progress:

(http://s23.postimg.org/x0m8o7zi3/met_emus.png)

Metropolitan EMUs - 1905 Gate stock (bottom), 1913 and 1921 Circle stock (middle, top) - the latter two also have a red LT livery variant.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on November 21, 2014, 11:16:27 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on November 23, 2014, 05:48:42 PM
James, I'm just adding in all of your coaches and locos, which I seem to have omitted at the time. I can't find any dats in your github unless I'm being blind? Is your github up to date with these?


EDIT - scrap that I've found them now on your half-heights branch. Perhaps that should become the new default?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on November 23, 2014, 06:12:31 PM
Splendid, I am glad that you have found them. I will make the half-heights branch the default when I have a new stable release of Experimental that can work with it. My development work has been delayed a great deal in the second half of this year, as I have been preoccupied with moving house. (I now have the house, but have not moved in pending some works needing to be done).
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 03, 2014, 06:37:23 PM
Update - I had hoped to have this released by now but I've had a catastrophic hard disk failure which rather delays things. I'm currently trying to get all the files off the corrupted disk and hopefully I haven't lost it all, but it will take some time either way...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 03, 2014, 11:57:01 PM
Update - I had hoped to have this released by now but I've had a catastrophic hard disk failure which rather delays things. I'm currently trying to get all the files off the corrupted disk and hopefully I haven't lost it all, but it will take some time either way...

Ohh, goodness, that's not good. Very best wishes in recovering all of that.

For reference, my usual practice is to push to Github on finishing each individual vehicle (or, at least, set of matching vehicles). Github doubles as an excellent backup.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 04, 2014, 07:35:43 AM
Fortunately it seems it was just the Boot and system sections of the drive that were knackered and the data is all intact (and backed up now!). Nevertheless it will be a while before I can get this finished as I need to get and install a new hard drive and rebuild windows from scratch etc. before I can think about releasing this stuff.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 04, 2014, 10:11:26 AM
Fortunately it seems it was just the Boot and system sections of the drive that were knackered and the data is all intact (and backed up now!). Nevertheless it will be a while before I can get this finished as I need to get and install a new hard drive and rebuild windows from scratch etc. before I can think about releasing this stuff.

That must be quite a relief - you clearly spent a long time on that! I can imagine that setting everything up again will indeed take a while. Very best wishes in getting everything sorted out.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: kierongreen on December 09, 2014, 12:52:25 AM
I know the feeling well of recovering data and getting computers back up and running! Hope it goes fairly smoothly :)
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 11, 2014, 06:14:00 PM
Nearly there! Just a busy week so no time to finish the job - hopefully next week in time for a pre-Christmas release.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 15, 2014, 01:58:12 PM
Finally, the electric locos of the met and district:

(http://s29.postimg.org/4vw0wgixj/early_subsurface_electrics.png)

Top: District Locos (paired) 1905
Middle: Metropolitan BTH Box Loco 1907
Bottom: Metropolitan Camelback Loco 1906

Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 15, 2014, 02:12:14 PM
Wonderful!
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 15, 2014, 02:42:02 PM
These have now all been added to SVN, completing the London Underground project. Time for an "official" release I think...
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 21, 2014, 05:55:35 PM
I have now integrated these into Experimental, with the necessary amendments. May I ask, however: was there a reason that the second livery of the Metropolitan 1913 and 1921 circle stock was all-over red rather than red and cream?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: The Hood on December 21, 2014, 06:23:33 PM
My sources seemed to indicate the red & cream was not universally applied and only temporary. Is that not the case?
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 21, 2014, 06:29:36 PM
My sources seemed to indicate the red & cream was not universally applied and only temporary. Is that not the case?

My source did not mention that: it does sound as if your source went into more detail on the point, however. My source (the Jenkinson book on railway carriages) merely indicated that these were repainted into red and cream when refurbished in 1935, the only sub-surface units to be so painted.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: Junna on December 24, 2014, 04:29:31 AM
Graphic anomalies on the D-stock, I think it was. There's an accidental removal of parts of the side window on two of the views on the driving ends.
Title: Re: Underground Trains
Post by: jamespetts on December 24, 2014, 10:54:15 AM
I think that I have fixed this on the Experimental version: the graphics are on my Github repository. This problem is caused either by the black windows being too close to the edges, causing a loss of the separation between the black background and black windows that causes the windows to be replaced with the background colour when replacing the black background automatically, or using the fill tool with a tolerance of more than 0. In this case, I suspect the former problem.

Incidentally, I should note that only the refurbished A, C and D stock had the windows at the non-driving ends of the carriages: the unrefurbished examples of these units, together with R stock and O/P stock, had no windows at the ends of the carriages apart from the window in the connecting door, which is contrary to what is portrayed in the images (although this is only seen briefly when the units turn a corner).

Incidentally, are there any plans to release the .blend files for these?