The International Simutrans Forum

PakSets and Customization => Other paksets => Topic started by: wlindley on February 15, 2010, 02:02:02 PM

Title: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on February 15, 2010, 02:02:02 PM
Please advise here if you would be interested in co-operating on a pak128 version for the United States.

This would build on the excellent work from Pak128, Pak128.Britain, and others...

I've always been a little surprised no-one has really tried a pak128.USA.  I think there have been a few half-hearted attempts, and there are some pak128 scale american bits lying around on the archive forum, e.g.
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/00699.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/05920.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/06454.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/06436.0/index.html

Perhaps we can get permission to use some of the graphics already drawn? 

And what other usable bits exist -- anyone?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on February 15, 2010, 02:12:57 PM
You can of course use as much or as little of pak128.Britain as you want, but it is, well, a bit... British...  As long as the project is open source and gives credit to original authors, which is probably the best way forward IMO.

Good luck with the project - and if you are going to aim for a full-blown pakset I'd suggest doing what I did with pak128.Britain and start by taking an existing set (either pak128 or pak128.Britain, whichever suits the graphics style you settle on) and gradually replace the different parts.  Just be prepared for the long haul!

Unfortunately I won't be helping (except maybe the occasional guest contribution if I feel like a change from something British) as I think one pakset is more than enough to keep me busy!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Combuijs on February 15, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
Quote
Perhaps we can get permission to use some of the graphics already drawn? 

The first link is to Raven's work. He has given permission to use all of his creations for Simutrans if credited.

The other ones are from TonyBzt. I don't think he comes to this forum anymore, but you might be able to contact him via the German Simutrans Forum. As far as I know he had some troubles with copyright issues over there (pak128.German?), but that might just be me mis-interpreting the German language.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on February 15, 2010, 02:50:01 PM
Thanks Combuijs, I'll see if I can contact Tony. 

TheHood: I'll probably start with at least the buildings from Britain, ... after being "there" for so long, the bright colors in "regular" pak128 hurt the eyes!

Is there a repository of the blend files that the various .png were made from?  Is it true that by loading different light sources, it should be possible to convert "regular" pak128 to British or whatever USA lighting is chosen?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on February 15, 2010, 02:53:38 PM
If you want something from pak128, just tell me...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on February 15, 2010, 02:55:21 PM
Is there a repository of the blend files that the various .png were made from?  Is it true that by loading different light sources, it should be possible to convert "regular" pak128 to British or whatever USA lighting is chosen?

Yes (in the case of pak128.Britain) - it's called my hard disk ;)  Just ask for what you want and I can send them.  All the pak128.Britain models have lighting setups in them for pak128.Britain, which is essentially a standard for all pak128.Britain buildings (I certainly try to encourage that for consistency's sake).  In theory, you could stick any blender model in the pak128.Britain lighting setup, and get a consistent result.  The only thing is that many pak128 buildings were hand drawn I think.

If you start with pak128.Britain, you could certainly use the tracks, rivers, and grounds (there is even a desert texture!) without any modification.  Roads would need to be converted to have give-way markers on the right instead of left, and US road markings, but that shouldn't be too hard (in any case, I think a USA roads set exists somewhere anyway, you could ask about using that).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Spike on February 15, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Thanks Combuijs, I'll see if I can contact Tony. 


IIRC the problem was that the some images were only given to TonyBzt for using in pak128.german, and the rights could not be transferred to other people/sets. Was weird though. Ask him, maybe it clears up :)

I might be able to donate a cactus plant or two, but I guess pak128 already has better ones.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Combuijs on February 15, 2010, 03:21:33 PM
Quote
in any case, I think a USA roads set exists somewhere anyway, you could ask about using that

Yes, our benevolent dictator made them. I'm pretty sure he will donate his roads in exchange for a hat  :P .
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on February 15, 2010, 03:55:24 PM
Hm, without the .blend files, it's like having only compiled code.

Ideally what should exist, is a Pak-generating script... so you can say make pak128.Britain or make pak128.USA and the Makefile will --

Then all the paks could share the same source.  And you could just as well make pak64.Britain or make pak192.Britain or...

Otherwise developers of all the various paks (German, Dutch, USA, Britain, ...) are wasting time, re-inventing things already done.

Pak128.USA would be a logical, automatic fall-out of such a tool... perhaps *that* is what we should write first?

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on February 15, 2010, 04:07:24 PM
Lovely idea, but I don't think it would work.  Pak128.Britain is probably the pakset most-derived from blender models, so in theory is best suited for such an approach.  But (and this is a big but) there is a significant amount of post-processing required on the blender images in the GIMP to remove stray pixels, perfect alignments etc.  I wouldn't say what you are after is impossible, but is at least incredibly impractical (and I should know, given I like using blender and hate pixel editing, I keep my pixel editing to a minimum and it still accounts for ~50% of the pakset work).  Anything with player colours or night colours is also very difficult in your scheme.  Besides, many artists prefer to use other 3D programs or to do it pixel by pixel, and generate good results.

By all means try, but I fear that the amount of work trying to do what you are doing would also constitute re-inventing things already done (if the pngs exist already, why not use them rather than spend months re-drawing the same thing?) and would work out slower.

I'm not trying to pour cold water on your idea, just speaking from experience :)

PS if you do find a way of automating all of the pixel editing, I'm first in the queue to use it!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on February 15, 2010, 06:42:53 PM
might as well throw in mexico and canada and call it pak128.North America since all freight rolling stock is shared between the three countries and the only real difference between each company is the paint scheme. (at least starting from the electric diesel age).

one thing that might be important is the scale, since freight trains here can stretch up to 2~3km and consist of more than 150 cars driven by 3~4 engines.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on February 15, 2010, 08:00:21 PM
Otherwise developers of all the various paks (German, Dutch, USA, Britain, ...) are wasting time, re-inventing things already done.
I see it as alternatives rather than reinventing. It's not that we all pakset people don't have something in common - Simutrans the program. But our approaches to graphical style, timeline, balancing etc. differ. That's why there will be more paksets, incompatible on various levels. For some reason, this is the spirit of this community - we work together, just not that much :P

Of course, you could start something, let's call it a bundle of paksets, where all of the sets overlap in vision, automation and content. Such approach makes a lot more sense than just applied broadly to everything. And 128.Britain is a logical candidate, because it is highly consistent, so there is less "import friction", so to say... But you won't get people coming to overturn the whole pakset they manage, just so that it fits a new scheme. If this hypothetical solution offers significant advantages over old ways, some will come. I'd say once there is some base of content, appending new paksets will become cheaper, which could be the killer. But if you want to absorb old paksets, too, your keywords are better, not merely another.

AFACIT all of us maintainers around here are happy to share, so there already is this kind of "support by content". Just not automated to death.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on February 15, 2010, 08:38:44 PM
Thanks VS, yes I see a core agreement forming on a 'family' of paks... although perhaps not quite as easy as "roll your own pak with five mouse clicks" i was daydreaming of this morning.  ( "I can haz magic pak-generating wand???")

Let's see who else responds here...

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on February 15, 2010, 08:50:12 PM
"I can haz magic pak-generating wand???"

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz! ;D
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Spike on February 15, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
Thanks VS, yes I see a core agreement forming on a 'family' of paks...

There is no love anymore for the smaller paks (http://www.funkelwerk.de/forum/Smileys/default/cry.gif)

Edit: Also, posting 666. Must be a curse.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on February 15, 2010, 09:07:30 PM
Bigger screens -> smaller paks are too small for people that need glasses :D

Solution -> resize to 2x size and call pak64x2.Hajo ;D
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Spike on February 15, 2010, 09:14:37 PM
I guess I have too many other ideas, such a pak set needs much time and devotion. I should try smaller projects, which I can finish in a reasonable amount of time.

But sometimes it itches me to make a high quality all-raytraced set.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on February 27, 2010, 05:15:30 PM
I remember on the old forums somebody tried a Pak192.US at one stage, but it never got very far. 192 seems a good size for an American pakset - after all, everything's bigger in the US ;-)

It's a good idea to have US content, though, as it might help to make Simutrans more popular over the pond, and attract a considerable number of North American users and developers.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on February 27, 2010, 10:55:02 PM
if things are done in 192 size, I wonder how the really big vehicles will scale, or if they even fit within 255 tile sizes, because we have some really huge (and long) vehicles in NA.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on February 28, 2010, 12:20:24 PM
It might be easier to stick to 128x128 - certainly demo versions would be easier to create and generate momentum for the project as certain parts could be borrowed from pak128 / pak128.Britain.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on March 10, 2010, 10:14:18 PM
i'm living in toronto since about 2 months now, and i think the most important detail to make the pak typicaly american would be to make streets in cities twice as wide, with one square for each direction.

(the other thing that strikes me about toronto's TTC is the rolling stock, wich looks like it was right out of the museum (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/TTC_T6H_5307N_Bus_2284.jpg/250px-TTC_T6H_5307N_Bus_2284.jpg)
)

i think there are already some code changes for double lane tunnels comming, maybe there's a chance to extend that code for general streets.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on March 11, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
TTC doesn't have the money to replace them :D
If you think those GM buses are old, then you'd be surprised at how old the streetcars are. They only look new because they got a new paint job.

CLRV was introduced since 1977 and another batch was made in 1981
ALRV was introduced in 1987
We still had PCC streetcars running in the mid 90's.

One key thing with a lot of North American vehicles is that it's used long past it's retirement date, either because there's a shortage of money or because it hasn't been totalled.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on March 11, 2010, 05:46:40 AM
a bit off-topic (but pms are still down):

having not enough money shouldn't be a problem for a public company as the TTC. they should have excellent credit ratings. lending the money wouldn't be a weight on the balance when they buy a vehicle with it. dunno if new buses are written of in 10 or 15 years.
driving that old stuff should cost plenty in maintenance. it maybe also doesn't attract a lot of riders. and taking  the buses for a short part is almost inevitable for any trip here.

i encountered the first streetcar last summer on college street. i thought it was just a touristic thing, with a historic car. i knew those rod-like pantographs from the museum only. same for the small doors. learned quickly however (spadina) it's on the 'rapid' lines too. (oh, did i mention i kind of love them streetcars? they remind me of the old P Reihe in Munich
(http://www.tramgeschichten.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/2010_stiglmaierplatz.jpg) here in front of Löwenbräu Biergarten and brewery. when i commuted on that line they were extremely rare already. Toronto and Munich both have 11 lines with 75km track!)

well, as i said only for a month here, but it's already enough to get surprised everyday how planless TTC and much more the political responsible in toronto act and acted. seems like they start to build a random major high profile project, just to scrap it after a few years. leaving for example half finished subway stations or a dedicated tram track without any trafic signal priority or dedicated entry points behind. my guess is some mayor wins an election with some big plans for TTC, the next one wins it by promising to cut down the TTC.

on the other hand it works almost well enough, and i'm pretty glad it's there. i'd be screwed without th TTC. i also think the people here in toronto are rather proud of it, and i don't want to hit a nerve, so don't consider it as complaint. it's more of being surprised abouth how differently the transport can be run.

what i find kind of symphathetic about the TTC is it's very outfashioned way. a lot of old people working for it. and i almost couldn't believe it: an employee the 'collector' at every subway station!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on March 11, 2010, 07:30:27 AM
no worries there sdog, most torontonians have exactly the same thoughts you do.
It's inadequate, we know it's falling apart, but it's severely difficult to live without it.

speaking of no plans in urban development, just check out our highways. 8 lanes of traffic each way.
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/th_401bypearson.jpg) (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/401bypearson.jpg)

back on topic, for a USA/Canada/Mexico pakset, there should be a heavy reliance on air and road for passenger transport, while rail and ship would be heavy in freight.  There's no high-speed passenger train service. If European transport is fast, small and nimble, then North American transport is slow, large and lumbering.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on March 11, 2010, 12:06:40 PM
AEO: I would like Pak128.USA to permit the way things 'should' have been, as well as the way the are.

I would play my games as "What if Pullman hadn't been bought by the railroads in 1944, as the result of a Supreme Court Decision, but instead R.R. Young's conglomerate? What if Congress listened to President Eisenhower and built only a skeletal Interstate Defense Highway system, and refused federal funding to airports?"  Things would be quite different...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on March 11, 2010, 12:24:29 PM
@wlindly

now that might be more interesting than what we have now.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: werl on March 12, 2010, 02:44:35 AM
Quote
8 lanes of traffic each way

Actually i counted 9.

love the idea of a North American pak, I say this because the US and Canada have similar transportation systems.

only 2 lanes each way in Alberta.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on March 12, 2010, 03:19:39 AM
i'll take the ttc - with all it's kinks and unreliability - anyday, i really hope i never have to use THAT *points at AEO's photo*

that's by the way about the first thing a foreigner sees from canada, when arriving in toronto. (i had more luck and a nicer first glimpse: two cycles around downtown and the islands, on a bright sunny afternoon.)

if there wasn't so much motorised trafic and less crossroads, toronto would be great to use cycles to get around. very flat, rather good weather, a bit windy though. I heard horrible things however about north american drivers when sharing roads with cyclists.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on March 12, 2010, 03:30:00 AM
Cycling isn't so bad in Toronto. It could be better. The main problems are the highways and train tracks that limit and force bicycles and cars to share the road, which isn't pleasant in some areas due to bad drivers in general.

to reflect it in the pakset, the cost of elevated ways and bridges should be very pricey compared to ways that are not.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: werl on March 12, 2010, 05:36:50 AM
Not living in a city with mass transit, car is most common. If it was available, I would use mass transit before even thinking of stating a car. What you would need to do is put a focus on things like elevated or even the tunnels to move around. The only mass transit that i remember being on is the ETS. The new expansions are nice.

For anybody who is thinking of working on this, electrics (of any kind) should be super expensive to purchase and have little variety, we mostly use diesel loco's. Big vehicles are a MUST. piece goods on planes would make for a more realistic North American experience. Trucks should be cheep to run. but only make trains and planes profitable over LONG distances. One last thing, for citycars, pickup trucks are a must.

I think that I will take Hood and VS on their offers.  ;D (just a sort of pass time thing to do on the weekends)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Plastikman on March 15, 2010, 07:02:26 AM
Interesting.

It has been a long time since I played Simutrains. Maybe it is time I take a look at it again...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on March 17, 2010, 10:25:41 AM
Is anything happening with this?  I think it would be a real shame to let this go the way of all the other pak128.USA discussions, i.e. all talk and no results.  Why not put together a quick demo release with all the bits you can so far, perhaps using pak128.Britain as a base?  That's how pak128.Britain got going... (combined with a decent train set as that's mainly what people like to play with, that should probably be the first priority).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on March 17, 2010, 02:34:23 PM
OK let me see what I can put together.  Work has been hectic the past few weeks, but I have a bit of time now.

I'll likely start with a little copy of Britain ... hmm, sounds like 'real' history!  (p.s., I was once asked if I would consider joining the Sons of the American Revolution but I explained my link to that event, my 7th great-grandfather, came over to fight those pesky colonists.  Invitation rescinded with a laugh and a grin "have a beer anyway.")
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on March 17, 2010, 04:19:17 PM
Any chance of making it Experimental cocompatible?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on March 30, 2010, 03:21:12 PM
Someone look over to the OpenTTD 256 tile thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=44188

That would be an awesome american pak set!

Some image links:
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3585/openttdbadbrettmodtiles.jpg)

(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8926/openttdbadbrettmodtown.jpg)

(http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=122505&mode=view)

(http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=124985)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Zeno on March 30, 2010, 03:41:30 PM
Oh Jeez! Did ya see that??  :o
I don't know if I should feel jelous or just amazed...They look very 3D-ish indeed. Those graphics are outstanding!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on March 30, 2010, 03:58:15 PM
om*g

how did they do that terrain, it looks nothing like the ugly ttd polyeders anymore. (i guess it helps a bit that in openTTD terrain elevations are only half as high)

any idea if it is open source?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on March 30, 2010, 10:19:35 PM
About open source: Ask the guy doing this.

And the ridges are just clever elevations ... may have been worked better with non-skinned simutrans; however reintroducing non-skinned tile support would be easy if somebody comes out with such tiles. Even doing half-height is easily possible. Much more since simutrans allows longer trains than OpenTTD (and a patch for less clipping errors is also under advanced testing).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on March 31, 2010, 06:24:39 AM
that's pretty impressive.

I think the shadows help it looks realistic, on top of the high pixel count tile size and render quality.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on April 03, 2010, 07:54:47 PM
I just had to try: This is how the txteture and six buildings compose cities in simutrans 128 ...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: gauthier on April 03, 2010, 08:41:30 PM
that's lovely  :-*

I don't like many paks but pak128, but this one is simply lovely ...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on April 05, 2010, 03:21:07 PM
hamburg won't sink after climat change, but look like this?

looks pretty good prissi!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on April 21, 2010, 09:31:29 PM
Prissi, a few questions:

- are there reasons not to go for 256 tilesize, if a pak would be mostly built from scratch?

- In 3d larger textures are less of a problem than the number of textures, how's it with the tile based 2d renderer used in simutrans?

- When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?

- For a US pak it would be nice to have the climate of a tile not only based on it's height, but also have a climate gradient from north to south. Could this be implemented in standard without to much work?

- can normal city buildings, i mean non-factory, non-attraction buildings also spread over more than one tile, or cluster like farms or solar powerplants?

@pak US team:
Regarding building from scratch: I don't think taking pak128 britain objects directly into a pak north america would be a perfect sollution. The light is different here, and most things are much more colourfull.


ps.: sorry for the double posting, but my last posting was so old, i didn't want to modify it.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Dwachs on April 22, 2010, 08:16:19 AM
although I am not prissi, I think I can answer some questions.
Prissi, a few questions:

- are there reasons not to go for 256 tilesize, if a pak would be mostly built from scratch?
Prissi did some code change recently to allow larger graphics. Before that each piece of graphics was limited to 255x255. I personally find pak192 way too large. You have to keep in mind that only very small numbers of  256x256 tiles can be displayed on a screen. So constant zooming out is a must when playing.
Quote
- When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?
Nothing implemented in this direction, you have to scale up the graphics yourselves.
Quote
- For a US pak it would be nice to have the climate of a tile not only based on it's height, but also have a climate gradient from north to south. Could this be implemented in standard without to much work?
Impossible (I mean much work would be required).
Quote
- can normal city buildings, i mean non-factory, non-attraction buildings also spread over more than one tile,
No (in the sense that nobody works on an implementation)
Quote
or cluster like farms or solar powerplants?
I dont understand you here.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on April 22, 2010, 10:41:59 AM
All non-special buildings are single tile. A code change to allow loading them but ignore them for automatically placement would be easy.

And yes, I am working in the moment a little on the size restriction of images. Imho even pak128 is too large for me ... But zooming works very good with the comic paks.

ABout texture size: I do not understand what you are asking.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on April 22, 2010, 11:02:01 AM
Graphics size is actually two issues.

So larger tile sizes are already partially possible - technically, without the means to actually look good. Which defeats the purpose, doesn't it. But I think biggerizing the pictures without any regard for other aspects wouldn't yield anything beautiful anyway. Perhaps focusing on individual graphic quality and consistency is a reasonable choice for next few years?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on April 22, 2010, 12:29:35 PM
One issue at present is that larger sizes zoomed out look considerably worse than smaller sizes zoomed in.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on April 22, 2010, 01:36:12 PM
Currently OpenTTD has a quite a lot images for 32Bit; but all those are made for 256 tiles. Thus, it seems to me reasonable to allow also for that tiles size. Especially since there is very little effort needed to support it.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on April 22, 2010, 08:12:11 PM
Quote
Quote
When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?
Nothing implemented in this direction, you have to scale up the graphics yourselves.
i put it in the wrong part of the message, this was less of a technical question, than a suggestion for a way to get to a pak256, if neccessary. i was indeed thinking of just doubling and interpolating them with e.g. imagemagick

if i understand you correctly, something in the line of LOD (level of detail) would be needed to make larger tilesizes feasible. I expect most players would likely play most of the time zoomed out to varying degrees.

or are more fundamental problems to be expected with large tile sizes?


Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on May 03, 2010, 10:39:12 PM
If anyone is still interested in an American/Canadian pak I would be willing to help.. Just let me know which pakset size to start working in, and I can make a few sample buildings or way types and see where it goes from there.

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on May 08, 2010, 12:38:52 AM
I have not yet figured out how to get the pak started.  Perhaps we could use this as an exercise in writing a wiki page, How To Start A New Pak ...?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: The Hood on May 08, 2010, 08:14:44 AM
I can try to help from my experiences of pak128.Britain if you want.  IIRC, the things you need in a new pakset for it to actually work are grounds, fences and a gui, but there may be more.  As I have said above, the best bet is to take an existing pakset and replace things piece-by-piece.  I'd generally say that replacing trains first is the best place to start, as that is what most people like to play with so you can get some momentum going with that. 

While pak128.Britain may be the obvious starting point in terms of open-source, sdog's comments about the lighting are probably correct.  pak128.USA should be brighter and less gloomy I think.  For new stuff that's not a problem, just increase the brightness of render settings.  For existing stuff, you could try brightening images in a picture editor.  Get the grounds right first for this, and then try a few buildings or vehicles.  Alternatively, you can ask VS for a lot of openpak128 stuff (he's very obliging!)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on June 04, 2010, 04:09:57 PM
hi wlindley,

I'm interested in contributing graphics to a US pak set. I just found this game over a month ago and have been playing pak96.comic so I started creating some US focused graphics for the pak (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5267.0 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5267.0)). However, it already seems like my style/scale is not the best for for that pak. I'd be happy to start looking into 128 instead if you are leading the US version in that direction. Has a style been defined at all. Personally I like the comic style but it does have its limitations in terms of realism. I was thinking of starting as US pakset with 96comic as a base and removing/adding individual paks to gradually make a US pak. I agree with The Hood that a US pak colors and lighting should be brighter and this is the main reason 128 britain was not as interesting to me.

My contributions would be focused on structures, roads and road vehicles post 1960's to present. Just let me know where my efforts would be best used.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on June 04, 2010, 10:14:21 PM
If you'd like pictures of rolling stock for CN, I could take pictures as I live right by a stock yard and train station where VIA and GO trains run. I also recently saw some Automax tri-level car racks sitting around. I wonder if they're still there...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 06, 2010, 01:57:54 PM
wlindley
I Have an old paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip.
The Pakset do only work with Simutrans 0.85.xx.x and Simutrans 0.86.xx.x!
In My Simutransfolder Simutrans 086105 do this pakset work unter the name pak128_usa .
I hat hear that´s this paksetzip from raven are it.
And I hat hear to that´s the engineerdata to build this Pakset that from Raven it´s go through a Harddiskcrash be loss!

wlindley want you have this paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip?

Greenling

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on June 06, 2010, 04:30:33 PM
Greenling:  OK please to bill@saltriversystems.com

I hope to have a "starter" pak derived from Open pak128 and pak128.Britain, this week.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on June 06, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
In the German forum greenling just announced that he won't be online until evening of june 18th - so you'll have to wait a while, I guess.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 19, 2010, 09:01:19 AM
Hallo Dear Member
1. Alle Member the want to Have the paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip Please sending a Mail!

In the mail must be stand the info What´s for Hardware you have,
and what´s for Operatingsystem you use,
and the EmailAdress who i be Can to sending the paksetzip.
Don´t forget to use in the Commentfield the password : Pak128.usa .

2. Im try to kepp Quick answer so fast i can!

3. My Laptop gove the ghost up but the Datas from My HD Live.

4. At 16:00 Pm after Germantime I get Online.Must make a Job and the Job can´t wait.I want not loss my Job!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on June 19, 2010, 12:04:19 PM
Why do you need to know anyone's hardware and OS? And making it a requirement to give you that information before you agree to share what you have is a little... strange. As far as I know, you never created anything yourself, just collected things from other people - so why don't you just upload it somewhere and openly state the link for everybody? Instead of asking for hardware, OS and email address from everyone who might be interested... to me your behaviour (once more) makes me very suspicious of your intentions...

Oh and you shouldn't translate German slang word by word - it doesn't make sense in English that way.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on June 19, 2010, 12:33:54 PM
I suggest uploading what you have to http://files.simutrans.us/ - that's what it's there for. :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 19, 2010, 03:54:17 PM
Hallo dear Simutransmembers
i Have be upload my 086105 Simutransfolder at http://files.simutrans.us .
Here it´s the Link to the zipfile.
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/0SuZ3Hgg-Y/086105-simutransfolder-from-greenling.zip
The info for the Operatingsystem be standing in important please read.
Please give me massage the link not work!
Sorry my English get rusty!

Greenling
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on June 19, 2010, 07:09:08 PM
@Greenling:  It seems you have put a European car set in your pak128_usa (looks like Raven's car set).  To my knowledge, American trains have never had brakeman's cabins (while wikipedia seems to suggest its use in the US, I have yet to see a photograph of such a thing in North America).  Typical American trains would have brakemen in the locomotive and in the caboose at the rear; when braking was needed, the brakemen would climb on top of the train from their respective locations and make their way towards the middle of the train, applying brakes on the way.  Also, the colorful European tank cars seem out of place  (They should generally be black or white).

I will wait to see what wlindley comes up with.  86.10.5 is a very old version of Simutrans, I would prefer something a bit more current :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 19, 2010, 08:54:32 PM
Lmallet
I hate looking in my 128_us_set.zip and i Find some Europan vehicles,
those Vehicles hat Raven puting in this Pakset that he a Playabale Pakset.
This paksetzip it from raven.
Raven can This Pakset not more rebuild he loss the engineerdata throu a
Harddiskcrash.

Then you want to make new Generation form Pak128.usa then Must
you useing some Pakfiles out the Age from 086105 Simutrans.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on June 19, 2010, 10:38:55 PM
The above is quite confused.

Without a pakset de-compiler, these old .pak's are useless to build a new pak128.USA ... even if we had a de-compiler, the would would only be beginning.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on June 20, 2010, 12:31:17 AM
The above is quite confused.
You can say that again :)  I think we are really seeing two threads here.

Without a pakset de-compiler, these old .pak's are useless to build a new pak128.USA ... even if we had a de-compiler, the would would only be beginning.

I have seen rumours that such a decompiler exists, and is held in a secret tower somewhere.  I also seem to recall that Raven has given permission to use his objects, and since most of the source files have been lost, there might be a legitimate reason to get a hold of the decompiler here.  (all of this needs to be confirmed).  And yes, having used Raven's addons before, they would need to be seriously re-balanced before finding a home in a proper pak128.USA.

Now, there is a drawing style difference between Raven and standard pak128, which also has a few American objects (E and F units).  Maybe decompiling is not the route to take if objects are to be created from scratch.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on June 20, 2010, 12:45:21 AM
It would not be hard in theory to write a decompiler, given that the source code is public.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 20, 2010, 08:15:23 AM
Hallo dear Simutransmembers
I find from Raven the new Webside her it´s the Link:
http://128.simutrans.com/raven/main/index.html

Here gives the vehicles out the USA!

greenling
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on June 20, 2010, 10:20:13 AM
I have seen rumours that such a decompiler exists, and is held in a secret tower somewhere.  I also seem to recall that Raven has given permission to use his objects, and since most of the source files have been lost, there might be a legitimate reason to get a hold of the decompiler here.  (all of this needs to be confirmed).
I got all 3 items - paks, decompiler and images. So... I should give this to whom? ;)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on June 20, 2010, 11:16:35 AM
VS
before You reextracte the Pictures out the Pakfiles.
Talking with Raven thats he giving the ok to use his modells to build a
new Pak128.usa .
Gives Raven his ok Than sending the Picture and dats on wlindley.
He want build a New pak128.usa .

Greenling
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on June 20, 2010, 11:35:12 AM
I did that already, a long time ago :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on June 20, 2010, 03:35:14 PM
@VS:  It would be nice if pak128.USA was open instead of freeware.  Do you remember what Raven agreed to specifically (re: open vs. freeware for his stuff)?

@wlindley:  If you are going to go ahead with this, please consider myself available to help you.  I don't know how exactly (and how much time I have), but I am definitely interested in this project.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on June 20, 2010, 08:25:21 PM
Raven gave me carte blanche...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on June 20, 2010, 09:34:37 PM
Raven gave me carte blanche...

That's what I remember, too. AFAIK he allowed us to use all his things how ever we wanted, as long as it is for Simutrans.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 02, 2010, 07:25:47 PM
I am going to revive this thread to show the first step in making an American pakset, city roads without lines. White dashed lines indicate something completely different on US roads, and typically within towns most streets do not have lines. Note, the yellow lined cross roads were manually added and crosswalks were not modified..

(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7233/simscr02.png)

Intro year is 1915, which is when paved surface roads would have become increasingly common within the US..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on July 02, 2010, 09:06:38 PM
Excellent.  Do note that:

White center lines were typical in the United States before the early 1970s; yellow center lines followed later.  Dashed or double (and dashed-plus-solid) variants were only standardized about 1971.

[1] "In the United States, two states claim to be the first to have developed center lines..." in either 1911 or 1917... -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_surface_marking

[2] "The 1971 edition of the MUTCD included several significant standards; it required all center lines to be painted on roads in yellow (instead of white), and required that all highway guide signs (not just those on Interstate Highways) contain white text on a green background. Most of the repainting to the 1971 standard was done between 1971 and 1974, with a deadline of 1978 for the changeover of both the markings and signage." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_on_Uniform_Traffic_Control_Devices
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 02, 2010, 09:43:29 PM
I am aware of the line marking changes, however, those applied to intercity routes. Two lane intracity roads did not contain any markings. Arterial roads and 2+ lane roads are the only ones marked within cities, even today.

Ideally city roads should be broken into several different styles that can change over time. Until 1915 they should be simple cobblestone. From 1915 - 1927 simple paved surface with no markings. 1927 - 1954 stop lines should appear, and 1954- present is when crosswalks should be visible. For routes between cities, roads could also adhere to the timeline; 1915-1923 simple pavement, 1923-1971 single white line, and 1971-present double yellow line.

For the purposes of this pakset, roads would be the most defining feature of an era in US history. The reason being how reliant transportation has been on them since the first Model T rolled off the assembly line. Trains of course will be important as well, although the tracks themselves will not change much, which will make it more difficult to differentiate the era with.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on July 02, 2010, 10:03:27 PM
Those roads should be rather large arterial roads, given the grid constant of 3 km (standard) or 750 m (experimental) in your picture.

Quote
White dashed lines indicate something completely different on US roads
What is different with the lines in the US? (besides being yellow). I thought they mean the same as in the rest of the world, the middle of the road. They must not be crossed when they are solid lines.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 02, 2010, 10:32:44 PM
Depends on where you live. A significant portion of even neighborhood streets here are even marked.

I always thought of city streets in Simutrans as being arterial roads, due to the transportation-level scale; which is why I put stripes on the streets I made. :)

But I can see the argument to treat them like neighborhood-level streets based on the building-level scale, too. So personally (if my opinion matters, no worries if it doesn't) I'm good either way. :)

I am definitely looking forward to seeing pak128.USA take off. :D Looks great so far. :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 02, 2010, 11:35:31 PM
What is different with the lines in the US? (besides being yellow). I thought they mean the same as in the rest of the world, the middle of the road. They must not be crossed when they are solid lines.

Broken white lines are only used on one way roads and highways. A dashed white line indicates both lanes are traveling in the same direction, and you can freely cross over the dashed lines. Solid white lines are a bit rare, usually only seen on freeways and the like to separate a HOV lane from the rest of other travel lanes. A single white line is also used on the edges of roads to separate the lane from the shoulder. Otherwise, a double yellow line is always used to separate lanes of opposite travel.

Of course these styles can vary across regions, I am only familiar with what I have seen in the Southeast.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on July 03, 2010, 12:13:31 AM
Code: [Select]
Otherwise, a double yellow line is always used to separate lanes of opposite travel.Is it allowed to cross them, when overtaking, or turning left? If not, it's the same system.

What line is in the middle of a normal bidirectional road with one lane in each direction outside of built-up areas? The ones found between small towns or villages

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 03, 2010, 02:26:20 AM
Double-yellow line can be crossed to turn, but not to pass/overtake; used only in the middle of a road between lanes of oncoming traffic.

Dashed-yellow line can be crossed to turn and pass/overtake.

One solid yellow + dashed yellow indicates passing on the dashed side.

Lanes separated by white travel in the same direction.

On a road with a median / neutral ground (empty space between opposing traffic lanes), the inner stripe will be solid yellow, the outer stripe will be solid white.

What line is in the middle of a normal bidirectional road with one lane in each direction outside of built-up areas? The ones found between small towns or villages

Yellow stripes, typically with sections of double-solid, half-solid-half-dashed, or dashed, as conditions allow for passing (although some remain double-yellow for their entirety). Also, in nearly all cases, a single solid white stripe will be on the outside edge (whether there is a shoulder / breakdown lane or no)

Yellow always indicates oncoming traffic (if there is a painted median in the middle, it will always be yellow; if there is a painted median between lanes going in the same direction, it will be white) and white always indicates traffic going in the same direction.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 03, 2010, 05:55:26 PM
The next project I was working on is designing a new series of rail waytypes to fit the timeline. I started with the most basic form of railway in the US - jointed light rail on wooden ties. Light rail is less than 100lbs. This would have been common on mainline railroads until 1950 when continuous weld and larger rail took over. Jointed rail is still used on branchlines, industry tracks, and sidings today.

Here is a sample;

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/7574/simscr03.png)

This will replace the "low quality track" in game. The middle tracks are the original "low quality track" graphics slightly adjusted. The speed difference is minimal between the three styles, after all this is meant to be cheap and slow.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on July 03, 2010, 09:19:40 PM
Presumably you're not starting the timeline in 1900? Railways were already quite mature by then...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 03, 2010, 09:33:35 PM
Presumably you're not starting the timeline in 1900? Railways were already quite mature by then...

Sorry for not clarifying, the bottom track will actually be available from the early 1800s.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 04, 2010, 11:02:47 PM
OK.. I have been working on roads this evening.. I laid out basically a three type network to last the entirety of the game. The first type is a basic rural road. These roads would connect smaller towns that were not connected by arterial highways or other major roads, or cross connect cities as alternate routes. From the beginning of the timeline to 1920, rural roads are going to be dirt.

(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8708/simscr00.png)

These are accurate to what American road development would have looked like. The first stage is the 1920-1945 basic pavement. The white line would have trickled down to rural routes much slower, which is why they do not appear until 1945, lasting until a major standards change in 1971. In 1971 and for the rest of the game, we get the standard yellow double line without the white shoulder markings.

The next type of road is arterial highway, which is basically a major intercity road.

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3852/simscr01.png)

The years for the last two are still not final. The last road will probably appear between 1995 and 2005 with a higher speed limit than the previous road.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on July 05, 2010, 01:59:25 PM
How about a high-speed road, with white dashed lines, and a high maintenance cost, (and ideally available as an elevated way) which can be used to build expressways starting around 1960?  Two of these would look like a superhighway even if Simutrans does not yet fully have the concept of both lanes going in the same direction.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on July 05, 2010, 06:38:12 PM
those roads look awesome.
Are the speed limits the same deal as in canada?
25mph 40km/h residential/school zone
35mph 50km/h city
38mph 60km/h outer city
50mph 80km/h farmland/rural
60mph 100km/h freeway
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 05, 2010, 07:29:41 PM
Speed limits vary widely in the US. My experience has been:

25mph - residential, often not signed (sometimes signed at 20mph or even 15mph)
30mph, 35mph most common city streets (sometimes signed at 25mph)
30mph-45mph - arterial roads
45mph-55mph - major arterial roads
55mph-70mph - rural highways
55mph-80mph - freeways
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 05, 2010, 08:13:31 PM
How about a high-speed road, with white dashed lines, and a high maintenance cost, (and ideally available as an elevated way) which can be used to build expressways starting around 1960?  Two of these would look like a superhighway even if Simutrans does not yet fully have the concept of both lanes going in the same direction.

That is the third type of road, available beginning in 1956.

(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1694/simscr04.png)

For this one I just used the default autobahn and added diagonals like I did for all the other roads and improved the dashed centerline.. This version ends in 1975, after that point there will be shoulder markings like on the late arterial roads.

The speed limits thus far are below;

Rural Roads;

1912 - 1939 50 km/h
1939 - 1971 60 km/h
1971 - 2999 75 km/h

Arterial Roads;

1914 - 1924 60 km/h
1924 - 1971 80 km/h
1971 - 2999 95 km/h

Highways;

1956 - 1975 100km/h
1975 - 2999 150km/h

Of course those are not set in stone, but I believe they are realistic and balanced.

This pretty much ends the roads portion of the pak from me.. There will be one more highway to share, but that is all in terms of new networks. The dirt and gravel roads need replacements, but for now I will just leave the standard pak128 versions in place. There will be a plain pavement available from the 70s onward to represent a driveway to access industries or attractions.

Let me know what you guys think.. If all is well I can upload the completed paks and source files.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on July 05, 2010, 11:20:13 PM
i don't want to be overcritical, but on the diagonal part is a very visible zig zag pattern, due to not very well tile-able noise. Perhaps you can match the different tiles a bit better? The texture of the straight parts is pretty good however. It has not only noise, but also a slight stripy structure, orthogonal to the direction of the road. The structure is also very well tilable, no tile borders are noticeable at all.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on July 06, 2010, 12:32:41 AM
150km/h sounds good.

Ontario's 400 series highways built during the 50's to current day are marked as 100km/h, but it's possible to do 130km/h safely. Actually, it's possible to do 160km/h on them in a car, but trucks still flip over occasionally on the on/off ramps.

18 wheeler trucks still only do 100km/h to keep fuel economy good and seem to lack power while going uphills. Not unusual to see 18 wheelers only doing 80km/h while climbing.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 06, 2010, 12:46:59 AM
150kmh? That's around 93mph.

The highest speed limit in the United States is on part of I-10 and I-20 in far West Texas, where it's 80mph (128km): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States

And from 1973-1995, the national speed limit was 55mph.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 06, 2010, 01:06:51 AM
i don't want to be overcritical, but on the diagonal part is a very visible zig zag pattern, due to not very well tile-able noise. Perhaps you can match the different tiles a bit better? The texture of the straight parts is pretty good however. It has not only noise, but also a slight stripy structure, orthogonal to the direction of the road. The structure is also very well tilable, no tile borders are noticeable at all.

You are not being overcritical at all, in fact I welcome and appreciate you bringing that glitch to my attention. I did what I could to it, but I have trouble seeing on this computer screen so it may not be perfect..

I attempted to correct it, as well as the other diagonal sections;

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1051/simscr05d.png)

(Note, image compression ruined this photo, looks much better in game..)


150kmh? That's around 93mph.

The highest speed limit in the United States is on part of I-10 and I-20 in far West Texas, where it's 80mph (128km): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States

And from 1973-1995, the national speed limit was 55mph.

I set the speed limit high for the modern highway because it is open ended until the end of the timeline. There probably will not be any vehicles that can reach 150 km/h operating speed anyway until the future. I also took into consideration the national speed limit, however, it did not make sense to me to cap all three of the available roads to the same speed limit when they differ widely in cost and maintenance.

In any case, I am satisfied with the network graphics thus far. We can adjust speed/cost, etc. later if necessary. The important thing for me now is to draw bridges for each and every network so we can get a functioning road network for this pakset.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on July 06, 2010, 03:36:33 AM
Quote
I attempted to correct it, as well as the other diagonal sections;

yes, this is much better now!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 07, 2010, 07:38:28 PM
Alright, the road networks have been finished. I attached a zip file containing all the completed roads and bridges. I suggest locating and removing the standard roads and bridges from the pak128 folder for the sake of simplicity. The best way is to copy them to the desktop to serve as a backup.

In total there are 9 new networks and 6 bridges. The bridges are just the simple road bridge textured for the new networks. These will need to be replaced/upgraded with new graphics later. In the game, these roads are available and balanced for the years 1912 - 2020. Prior to that the only road available is dirt with cobblestone in the cities.

To round out the set, a replacement dirt road would be most helpful, so would a better variety of timeline era specific bridges.. Any takers? ;)

I tested these rather extensively so graphical glitches or incorrect dat parameters *should* be non-existent. However, if you do find a problem please let me know so I can correct the problem..

Otherwise, please enjoy this beta version of [future] pak128.USA roads.  :) Sources to come later.



Unfortunately it seems I cannot attach the file (too large), and I keep getting an error at the files section of this site.. Suggestions?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 07, 2010, 09:30:28 PM
http://files.simutrans.us/ exists precisely for this purpose. :)

I didn't write it - it's intended for paid usage, but it's free - you don't even have to log in, just poke around on the menu on the right :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 07, 2010, 10:44:45 PM
http://files.simutrans.us/ exists precisely for this purpose. :)

I didn't write it - it's intended for paid usage, but it's free - you don't even have to log in, just poke around on the menu on the right :)

Thank you Isaac :)

Now, lets try this again.. Here is the completed roads and bridges, 15 total;

http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/ZUTAXA8Rsr/roads-v1.0.zip
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 07, 2010, 10:51:38 PM
Ugh! They're horrible! Nasty! Terrible!

Just kidding, I'm about to download - but they already look good in the screenshots, I just wanted to give you a scare. ;-)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on July 07, 2010, 10:57:29 PM
Quote
Prior to that [1912] the only road available is dirt with cobblestone in the cities.

Did you have macadam roads in the past in the US? They could be a good fill in inbetween, for slow speeds up to 40 km/h (don't know whats that in US trivial units). Since they could support rather hight weights, they could still be interesting for large bulk carriers (Like the huge mining dump truck in pak128).:wq
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 08, 2010, 01:26:07 AM
Did you have macadam roads in the past in the US? They could be a good fill in inbetween, for slow speeds up to 40 km/h (don't know whats that in US trivial units). Since they could support rather hight weights, they could still be interesting for large bulk carriers (Like the huge mining dump truck in pak128).:wq

There were macadam roads in the US from the 1830s onward. Still, they were very few in number.. I could rework the gravel road into a macadam..

In any case I was tired of looking at roads and railroad graphics so I decided to bring some of the awesome city "cars" from pak128.Britain and see how they fit in the period before the internal combustion engine. Suffice to say they look fantastic!  ;D

As a special treat, I took the covered wagon vehicle and combined it with the horse team and made it a city vehicle (see attached for sample) that will clog your streets from 1750 - 1890. A very special thanks to James Petts and James Hood for drawing the originals and making them open source.  ;)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 08, 2010, 01:40:10 AM
I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but I'm getting assertion errors when I use these roads.

I made a copy of my nightly pak128open, removed ways and bridges, installed these.

I haven't nailed down how to reproduce yet, so it may just be that I'm doing something differently-- but I was making freeways similar to how I used to...

I'll update this further when I can repro - if it appears to be related to these roads (surely not, but...?)

I was going to upload a screenie, but I kept crashing. :-/

Meanwhile: They are very very nice roads. :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on July 08, 2010, 01:24:00 PM
Excellent work!  I am still working (slowly) on assembling a from-the-ground-up pak build directory for USA, but there is no reason to wait for me -- keep on with the graphics! 
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on July 08, 2010, 03:30:01 PM
Well It may be too late but I have been working on a road way also. It's not totally done yet, but I went in a different direction with mine. Not really certain which period it fits with but it has both dashed and straight lines (for corners). I suppose it would be more modern era, perhaps post 50's? I got into a little more detail with mine though and added road blocks on dead-end roads as well as stop signs at intersections. If you think it's something worthy of being included in 128 USA let me know and I can touch it up a little more. At any rate, this is my first road pak so it was a good learning experience.

I was thinking about taking the roads in a different direction by varying the widths of the roads. Typically the rural roads are more narrow and highways wider to accommodate higher speeds. This road was simply the standard width but I can try different sizes if there is interest.

I also have a question on one of the Dat attributes for roads. I notice there is a max_weight setting, is this respected by vehicles? Does this mean a vehicle finding a way will not travel on roads that have a maximum_weight less than the vehicles weight? if so that excites me very much as I know we have roads restricted by vehicle weight in my part of the country. I'm guessing the value is in Tons?

If we are good on roads, I'll start playing with bridges.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 08, 2010, 04:58:17 PM
I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but I'm getting assertion errors when I use these roads.

Let me know if you have any more problems tied to the roads.. I do not use pak128 open or any of the nightlies so maybe there is a conflict there?

Well It may be too late but I have been working on a road way also. It's not totally done yet, but I went in a different direction with mine. Not really certain which period it fits with but it has both dashed and straight lines (for corners). I suppose it would be more modern era, perhaps post 50's? I got into a little more detail with mine though and added road blocks on dead-end roads as well as stop signs at intersections. If you think it's something worthy of being included in 128 USA let me know and I can touch it up a little more. At any rate, this is my first road pak so it was a good learning experience.

I was thinking about taking the roads in a different direction by varying the widths of the roads. Typically the rural roads are more narrow and highways wider to accommodate higher speeds. This road was simply the standard width but I can try different sizes if there is interest.

I also have a question on one of the Dat attributes for roads. I notice there is a max_weight setting, is this respected by vehicles? Does this mean a vehicle finding a way will not travel on roads that have a maximum_weight less than the vehicles weight? if so that excites me very much as I know we have roads restricted by vehicle weight in my part of the country. I'm guessing the value is in Tons?

If we are good on roads, I'll start playing with bridges.

Looking good so far! I particularly like the idea of putting details on the roads.. I wonder if it would be feasible to add simple telegraph wires to the early dirt roads and railroads? Or perhaps even street lights on cityroads..

As for the variable width roads.. One problem - vehicle alignment would need to be extremely close to the center to ensure they flow well over all road networks. A solution would be to vary road width by era, and have vehicles closer in the early years and wider in the late years, however, that seems like a lot of extra work.

Next, AFAIK, the weight figure is not yet implemented. I always set mine at 50 on roads, simply because that was the default in the road dat files I have seen..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Reddog785 on July 08, 2010, 09:51:49 PM
I just have to say that this is a great idea for a project. Love the idea. :D
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 09, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
Time for the next mini-update..

The next focus for me was railroad tracks. I modified the existing versions in pak128 for a full range of track types from the first railroads in 1828 to high speed rail, which is the most recent addition to the track types. The first high speed train (Acela Express) was introduced to the US in 2000, although the first true high speed rail line in the US will not be completed until at least 2015 (Tampa - Orlando). I added the high speed track slightly before the Acela was introduced for the purpose of realism.

(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4315/simscr06.png)

I also modified the tram tracks. No screenshot yet, but basically the first tram track can now be built in 1836. It will be used by horsecars until 1889. In 1889 electric trolleys will be available, as well as an upgraded version of the track. Further track upgrades occur in 1953 and 1991. I also plan to add interurban railroads to the tram menu eventually..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 10, 2010, 07:53:03 PM
I know it is a little early to be worrying about city buildings, but I could not resist experimenting with Raven's awesome graphics..

1750:

(http://files.simutrans.us/thumbstore/51/-CnEPOK9I9.simscr00_thumb.png) (http://files.simutrans.us/image/show/-CnEPOK9I9/simscr00.png)

mid/late 1800s:

(http://files.simutrans.us/thumbstore/02/UiFJrvJpwA.simscr01_thumb.png) (http://files.simutrans.us/image/show/UiFJrvJpwA/simscr01.png)

With the latter, I only have the completed pak files from the ancient pak128.usa, so it is not possible to edit their intro/retire dates. Raven also made a complete line of American steam locomotives that span the entire history of railroading, unfortunately they need rebalancing and there are no source files.


What I would like to know is what should be the established start date for pak128.USA? I was considering 1750 personally, since that is the date that stagecoach transportation would be feasible. Prior to that ships would have been the only means of transportation and the game might be a little boring.. Or we could set the minimum even later - around 1800 or 1850 when more transportation options are available..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on July 10, 2010, 09:19:50 PM
These house are distinctively european, they are middle ages (before 1500) so not very american. I would rather ask the maker of the american desert graphics from OpenTTD for the permission to use their stuff I used in the thread further above.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on July 10, 2010, 09:40:41 PM
1880~1930 or so, there is an increase in red brick buildings.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: VS on July 10, 2010, 09:48:26 PM
Concerning start date: For pak128 the preliminary plan is having fully playable timeline since 1870. Rationale for such relatively late date is that the game, as is, does not work that well with some parameters too dynamic. (I'd elaborate but typing on mobile is a form of torture) This means that at start, at least one transport mode must be mature by current standards... Then many things get simpler.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 11, 2010, 02:00:00 AM
These house are distinctively european, they are middle ages (before 1500) so not very american. I would rather ask the maker of the american desert graphics from OpenTTD for the permission to use their stuff I used in the thread further above.

The only problem with the OpenTTD buildings is they only fit one region of the US..

I rendered a house the other day that is American looking [see attached]. Probably would only fit the post-1990s era though..

Concerning start date: For pak128 the preliminary plan is having fully playable timeline since 1870. Rationale for such relatively late date is that the game, as is, does not work that well with some parameters too dynamic. (I'd elaborate but typing on mobile is a form of torture) This means that at start, at least one transport mode must be mature by current standards... Then many things get simpler.

In that case, I think 1830 or so would be a good place to start. It is around that date that US railroads were born, and there would be plenty of options for transit networks..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on July 11, 2010, 12:55:46 PM
Canals were prevalent even toward the end of George Washington's life (he was a founder of the Chesapeake & Ohio Canal Company later C&O Railway), and shipping was certainly around before then.  I am hopeful of a timeline similar to pak128.Britain's.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on July 11, 2010, 09:23:43 PM
You can have the pak128.USA with climates; maybe tropical is rather plains, and desert is, well desert, where you could use those houses.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on July 15, 2010, 07:38:29 AM
You can have the pak128.USA with climates; maybe tropical is rather plains, and desert is, well desert, where you could use those houses.

Isn't Florida tropical?
Mediterranean: California

by far the largest would be temperate climate, and that would include the prairies.

You can probably do away with tundra climate entirely.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on July 15, 2010, 08:17:17 AM
If Alaska and Hawaii are included, there is definitely a use for alpine and tropical... :)

And yes, south Florida is tropical - but since climate is still based on level, it's probably less important for just that part of one state. :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 15, 2010, 02:48:41 PM
Isn't Florida tropical?
Mediterranean: California

by far the largest would be temperate climate, and that would include the prairies.

You can probably do away with tundra climate entirely.

If Canada is included in this set, the Canada specific objects could be limited to the tundra climate.. Of course not all of Canada is tundra, but at least that way it would be possible to create a specifically Canadian building set independent of the US set.

The tropical climate will probably be adapted to represent the Southern US, which has a humid subtropical climate and differs from the temperate climate of the Northeast, Midwest, and Plains regions. Alpine could represent the Rocky Mountains..

Of course, I would like to finish waytypes before working on buildings and such. Right now I am trying to fix a couple of graphical glitches in the roads, it is rather difficult to get the lines on the diagonal roads to line up properly..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on July 16, 2010, 03:08:41 PM
And Desert for the Southwest... tile-roofed buildings etc... hmm... I like the way this is going...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on July 16, 2010, 08:18:06 PM
I got all 3 items - paks, decompiler and images. So... I should give this to whom? ;)

Is there any chance of the images/dat files from Raven's US train and bus sets being shared here? Nearly all of his buses need re-alignment and an overhaul of their costs. Would be a shame for them to go to waste, because those really are some nice buses and trains.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on September 18, 2010, 09:32:31 AM
Developments looking interesting so far - the birth of a pakset! Any chance of a Simutrans-Experimental version?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: zc15-nyonker on October 08, 2010, 12:04:06 AM
It's good to see I'm not the only American that plays Simutrans!  ;D 

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on October 08, 2010, 02:44:59 AM
*waves* Hello, fellow American! :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: IgorEliezer on October 08, 2010, 02:52:57 AM
*waves* Hello, fellow American! :)

Y'know. Americans are rare. You found one here and one there. But Czechs are everywhere.

/bad in-joke
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: zc15-nyonker on October 08, 2010, 08:28:23 PM
Really, America is where transportation took off. For a long time, America was in the lead for speed, power, and new modes of transportation. The Internal combustion and airplane were invented here. The first train to ever exceed 100 mph was American, if I remember correctly. But simutrans is fun, even though it was not set up for the USA.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on October 08, 2010, 10:27:40 PM
Combustion engine and cars were actually more an european effort (mostly France and Germany):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_internal_combustion_engine

As to which engine really reached undoubtely 100mph ... for 93 mph it would be a 1907 german, but for 100 mph it might be an american: http://www.germansteam.co.uk/Tonup/Tonup.html
(The fastest steam loco might be german: http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html)

Anyhow, the need for speed was quite universal from the 1880ies (and thus many inventions are made in many places simultaniously), but only after the "civilisation" of the central plaines and the west and the recovering from civil war the USA economy could take off. So until 1900 (or even more until world war first) the USA was not yet the global player it has been since then.

This, on the other hand mean that vehicles (apart from railway engines) could be were well shared between different paksets for the before 1900 era.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on October 08, 2010, 10:43:36 PM
The world record for a steam locomotive is held by a British locomotive, "Mallard".
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on October 09, 2010, 01:25:50 AM
The last two links Prissi posted from germansteam.co.uk are an interesting read.  The writer is looking through available documents to see if what is accepted as record holders is actually true. 

Class 05 002 held the record for fastest locomotive, but the Mallard beat it by 2km/h a couple of years later.  The writer above argues that 002 should still be considered the fastest, as the Mallard's run was downhill, and had to stop after 40 miles due to overheated bearings, while 002 ran on level ground, and made it to the end.  002 also was able to repeat the high speeds, Mallard only has one other undocumented account.

As for the first to hit 100mph, that's hard to say.  The first locomotive to officially hit 100mph was the Flying Scotsman.  Four locomotives claim to have done it first, however their speed was measured using milepost timing (ie. measure the time between two mileposts), which is not precise enough to establish a speed record.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: zc15-nyonker on October 09, 2010, 12:24:58 PM
I admit this: the Mallard was fast, and could hold that speed. It also holds the current speed record for steam. I got my facts mixed up. 
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on October 09, 2010, 05:09:24 PM
The Mallard could not hold the speed, and was out of the track a short while after with an overheated bearing. Moreover the 126 mph was only reached for 60 yards? This sound more like a malfunction of the recording car. But reading the above links is really worth it, if you are into steam engines!

The fastest steam engines ever were probably even the Hiwatha class Atlantic and F7, which run up to 100-110 mph on normal schedule and had the power to exceed 120 mph. Why there was never a record attempt with them is not sure; maybe because also diesel-/electric engines would be surely able to beat them?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on October 09, 2010, 09:29:13 PM
I'm pretty sure, with steam, you can either maintain a certain power, or build up pressure to build up power temporarily. What will happen after giving that extra boost of power, is that the pressure drops and so does the power, which will basically cause the engine to limp to the next water station.
or something to that degree, because I can't remember exactly what was said, or where I've heard it.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: zc15-nyonker on October 10, 2010, 08:05:42 PM
When I said that the US had the first locomotive to exceed 100, I meant NYC's 999, and the book that I read that described it said it hit 112, and did not say that in reality it only hit 82. It is similar about the Mallard. I read a book on steam trains that was published many years ago, before a lot of  this was known, or it contained inadequate research so it was incorrect. When I said the US designed the first motorcars, I actually meant we were the first to pump petroleum. I apologize for writing these incorrect things on this forum.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on October 10, 2010, 08:48:46 PM
Well, I am not ment to be nationalistic or so, but the first oil wells were done ca. 340 in china and even japan knows of petroleum in 7th century (according to encyclopedia brittanica). Even in the middle east they used petroleum and tar for paving streets in bagdad in 8th century ...

But I think this goes very much offtopic, and is better servered in the Lounge, while in the other paks rather the actual progress of the (very  much sought after) pakUSA should be discussed.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: paco_m on October 12, 2010, 11:30:32 AM
Even in the middle east they used petroleum and tar for paving streets in bagdad in 8th century ...
This usage of petroleum is much older, they paved already the streets in ancient Babylon (around 1700 B.C.) with it and used it for hydro-isolation (houses, irrigation and boat-channels).

But here we are speaking about "natural" asphalt/petroleum that you can obtain from asphalt-lakes or from the ground, digging down until you reach the petroleum horizont - not pumping it from deep deposits. At least for construction purposes this so called natural asphalt has a much higher quality than the refined one and is still used: http://www.trinidad-lake-asphalt.de/english/index.php
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on October 13, 2010, 01:36:25 AM
Hello everyone;

I know I have been absent for a couple months, but rest assured I have been working on this project. Currently I am working on re-aligning, re-balancing, and adding night lights to Raven's USA locomotives. I quickly found that Raven's locomotives are generic and can stand in for numerous models, so the entire history of diesel locomotives in the US can pretty much be represented without having to paint very many new objects. About 40 locomotives have been finished so far, although stats still need tweaking.

One problem I noticed was American diesel locomotives actually peaked in top speed at 113 km/h in the 1970s. Freight locomotives have not increased in speed since that date, largely due to strict regulations that set high infrastructure requirements for anything above 113 km/h. Not sure how to handle this problem yet..
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on October 13, 2010, 02:18:42 AM
One problem I noticed was American diesel locomotives actually peaked in top speed at 113 km/h in the 1970s. Freight locomotives have not increased in speed since that date, largely due to strict regulations that set high infrastructure requirements for anything above 113 km/h. Not sure how to handle this problem yet..
I say do like the real guys:  passenger locomotives should be geared for speed and not power, while freight engines should be geared for power and not speed.  The max speed of freight locos can be 113, but the locomotives should be balanced so that the stronger locomotive costs more, and needs to pull more to be profitable compared to the smaller locomotive.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on October 13, 2010, 03:30:41 AM
one possible way is to make the rolling stock heavier and be able to carry more.
double stack containers and triple deck auto racks are not an unusual sight in some places.

passenger trains sort of died out, starting around the 70's to the 90's due to the pricing and speed competitiveness of airlines and coach buses. There are still commuter lines, but by far, the most popular choice is a personal car.

One thing that makes rail so slow, is that the railway operators don't bother upgrading or adding more tracks to a line and run really long freight trains at a slow speed. It's not unusual to have a freight train consisting of more 3 or more engines and hauling 50~100 freight wagons.
On average, I think it's around 25 to 40 freight wagons per engine doing 80 to 100km/h, depending on terrain.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on October 14, 2010, 02:26:00 AM
ot: those engines fascinated me quite a lot since i arrived here. very primitive, but apparently still economically enough. I live 1km away from the tracks in downtown toronto and i can hear the engines, that's the actual motors!

I only had the luck to see one of the trains rolling once so far. in fact 3 trains where running partially parallel. one extremely long, from the second i saw only the end, but the third one -- behind the second -- i saw entirely. I lost count, but the length was between 40 and 50 cars, with double stacked containers. Obviously no tunnels or catenary in eastern canada! The first train could have been even longer, i couldn't see beginning or end.

Quite fascinating was also to watch, and more importantly listen, to it stopping and starting again at a signal. I was surprised how much the space between wagons changes.


back on topic:
those extra long trains are rather unwieldy in simutrans. Platform lenghts of 20 or even 30 would be required.


ps.: i went on a trip to montreal, in summer. just 600 km, but definitely too far to use a car. it took me 7h with the bus. a pitty there's no usable passenger rail network available.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Lmallet on October 14, 2010, 03:21:45 AM
I lost count, but the length was between 40 and 50 cars, with double stacked containers. Obviously no tunnels or catenary in eastern canada!
There are a few tunnels in eastern Canada, and I know at least one in northern New Brunswick which was modified 20 years ago to allow for double stacks.  The 2nd St. Clair tunnel between the US and Canada (Sarnia, Ontario) was built with double-stacks in mind.  http://www.tunnels.mottmac.com/projects/?id=3352&mode=type (http://www.tunnels.mottmac.com/projects/?id=3352&mode=type).  There is catenary in Montreal, but no freight trains use that line.

ps.: i went on a trip to montreal, in summer. just 600 km, but definitely too far to use a car. it took me 7h with the bus. a pitty there's no usable passenger rail network available.
VIA Rail is actually not that bad on the Quebec-Windsor corridor, Toronto-Montreal is usually a 5h trip, and there are plenty of trains.  I find it more confortable than the bus, and often less of a hassle than flying.  Toronto-Vancouver is another story, I don't think I could stay on a train for 5 days.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on October 14, 2010, 07:54:36 PM
i started a new topic for the off-topic in the forum lounge:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6085.new#new
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on December 01, 2010, 12:51:38 AM
Just checking in to see if there is any progress here? I've developed some traffic signals, a road (still needs work) and am ready to start making more graphics for this set. I run into a problem though, we don't have anything together yet as a pak.

What we have so far (correct me if I'm wrong or missed anything):
 - RFG123 has some great track and roads and a structure or two.
From what I understand we have permission to:
 - use anything from pak128.britan
 - use anything Raven created

So we really just need to start going through and picking out what is appropriate for the US or North American pack. This will give us a base to grow on. Since this hasn't happened yet, I'll volunteer to start putting together these pieces from existing packs and whatever else is donated. Unless someone else wants to or has already started, would anyone be opposed to this? I'm thinking of opening a new sourceforge project where we can store source files.

There are two other things I still wonder about though:
 - There hasn't been much discussion on visual style. Can we try to nail this down? Suggestions?
 - It was mentioned, but still seems to be open. Will this be Open source, or freeware? My choice would be Open Source
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 01, 2010, 10:12:32 PM
Let's have some accurate North American locomotives and rolling stock...  I know it'll probably be too much to have every single type and subtype of locomotive ever built, but let's at least have the major ones.

And I'd love to see some honest-to-goodness covered hoppers of different types, specialized for cement (short 2-bay cars), grain (3-bays with gravity outlets), and plastics (4-bays with pneumatic outlets).  Most covered hoppers in the US tend to be painted plain light gray with few logos or graphics.  Though those owned by railroads as opposed to private shippers or leasing companies tend to be a bit more colorful.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on December 01, 2010, 10:27:37 PM
@railfan727
pak128 Image Painting howto (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=782.0)

;-)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 02, 2010, 01:28:47 AM
You don't want me drawing anything... trust me!  I'm definitely not what you would call an artist.  But I'd be happy to provide photos and/or technical information to anyone who is up for doing the actual drawing.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 02, 2010, 02:21:05 AM
I have not had the time to put into this project, however, I am going to share something I have worked on so far with the hope that someone can expand on it. Attached are 2 zip files. Both contain generic templates of Raven's old locomotives that have been re-aligned and have headlight positions and ditch lights appropriate to the locomotive, era, and manufacturer.

The EMD file contains the following templates:

4-axle road unit
6-axle road unit [pre-1992]
6-axle road unit [post-1992]
Widecabs

The GE file contains these:

4-axle B-Unit
Dash 7 series
Dash 8 series
Widecabs


Each of these templates can serve as an accurate stand in for a ton of different models. I completed 26 thus far ranging from the GP38 in 1966, the B23-7 in 1977, and the ES44AC in 2003.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 02, 2010, 02:37:27 AM
The main thing I notice with these is that these all appear to be identical to each other.  And they're all way too short front to rear.  The EMD 6-axle model is noticeably too short (it's the same length as the 4-axle one, though this is definitely not the case in the real world).  All of the 4-axle units from the GP40 on up are 59'2" overall length.  The 6-axle units are noticeably longer... the SD40 and SD45 are 65'8", the SD40-2 is 68'10", and the SD50, SD60, SD60M, and SD70 series are all 71'2".

The EMD units all appear to have radiator "wings" like a GE Dash-7.  All EMD units (except the SD45 and later versions of the SD70) have radiator grills which are flush with the sides of the hood.  The SD45 and later SD70s have radiators which are slightly flared.  The only EMD models with anything remotely resembling "winged" radiators are the SD80MAC, SD90MAC, SD70M-2, and SD70ACe.

The "widecab" models appear to have standard cabs just like all the others.  The GE widecab looks, to my eyes, like a cross between a U25B and a B30-7!

I really wish that I had some artistic talents to be able to create some new models for us.  But I just don't.  I mean, I can do re-textures for Microsoft Train Simulator models, but as far as drawing a perspective 3-D view from scratch, that is way out of my league.

Would it be possible to create the drawings in a large scale, then shrink them down to the required size afterward?  I think we might be able to get more detail and accuracy that way...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 02, 2010, 02:58:28 AM
These locomotives are all the same length, probably by design to fit within the standard length parameter. Aside from some older SD20 units, what you see in those zip files are all that was left by Raven for the post 1965 era. If you can paint new models, please go ahead and do it; in the meantime we have these stand-ins available that can always be replaced later as new ones are painted.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 02, 2010, 03:04:47 AM
In pak64, I've noticed that some of the models vary a bit from the standard length parameter in the interest of accuracy.  Would it be possible to do that in pak128 also?  It would be so neat to have an accurate SD50 or SD60... those things are a beast!  71 feet 2 inches long... they dwarf just about everything else out there (except the UP 6900-class DDA40X "Centennial", of course).

And different sizes and types of freight cars... from 2-bay covered hoppers for cement and 40' tank cars for corn syrup, on up to 89' auto racks and hi-cube boxcars.

I really wish I could paint new models, but I just don't know how to visualize a 3-D object in 2-D in order to be able to create it.  But if someone has the talents that I lack, I would be happy to provide technical data, photo references, and consulting during the design phase, if need be.

And how about semitrailers?  We could definitely use more of those as well; especially a 48' or 53' dry van.  Would it be possible to do intermodal operations, where semitrailers can be loaded on flatcars for part of the trip, then unloaded and driven onward to their destinations?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on December 02, 2010, 06:34:53 AM
Quote
... but as far as drawing a perspective 3-D view from scratch...
You don't have to, in fact hardly anyone does it that way. Most make a 3d model (in blender for example) and render it.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 02, 2010, 09:17:40 AM
I am looking forward to seeing those locomotives finished - and not only them. I wish someone made also some other ones, for example HHP-8 or Genesis - and of course, what is important too, some passenger and post cars.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 02, 2010, 11:27:22 AM
You don't have to, in fact hardly anyone does it that way. Most make a 3d model (in blender for example) and render it.
What's blender?

If you have a 3D model, how do you rotate it to the correct angle so that it renders properly for the game?  Most 3D viewers that I've used allow the model to be freely rotated by dragging the mouse rather than entering a specific angle or set of coordinates.  And how do you eliminate the perspective so that the parts of the object that are farther away do not appear smaller?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Spike on December 02, 2010, 12:34:48 PM
What's blender?

A free, open source, 3D modeling and rendering program:

http://www.blender.org/

Edit: In blender you have dialogs to set the rotation angles. Also, you can render isometric instead of the usual perspective view.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on December 02, 2010, 04:41:13 PM
there's a blender tutorial somwhere here in the forum, i can't find it at the moment. perhaps someone else can point you to it.

blender is not the only free program for this here's as alternative
gauthiers sketchup tutorial:
http://www.simutrans-france.fr.nf/doku.php?id=en:tutoskp
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Combuijs on December 02, 2010, 04:44:38 PM
Blender tutorial by Zeno:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4972.0 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4972.0)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 02, 2010, 05:27:46 PM
I am looking forward to seeing those locomotives finished - and not only them. I wish someone made also some other ones, for example HHP-8 or Genesis - and of course, what is important too, some passenger and post cars.
the ever popular bombardier bi-level coach (octagonal) and EMD F59PH or MP40PH series engines.
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/simutrans/th_GOtrain1.jpg) (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/simutrans/GOtrain1.jpg)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 03, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
How detailed does the 3D model have to be in order for it to look good in Simutrans?

For instance, if I were to build a Center Flow covered hopper, would I have to actually build out the slight convex shape of the sides, and model all of the structural bracing and ladders and grabirons and stuff?

This is an example of what I'm talking about... an ACF 5800 cubic foot Center Flow, with pneumatic outlets.  This has been the standard car for hauling plastic pellets in the US since the 1970s.

(http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C13365%5CIMG_9607.jpg) (http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C13365%5CIMG_9607.jpg)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on December 04, 2010, 01:07:21 AM
Hi Railfan,

I just happen to be working on some 3D models of rolling stock and I can show you the detail I have in my model and the results.

You really don't need much, the basic shape is good. I then add in the details with a pixel editor (graphic program). You can see the model I built in SketchUp, the exported result, and the detailed version. Since the image is so small, even for 128, It's not worth it to add to much detail to the 3D model as you just have to fix it in the flat image (export/png or whatever you want to use).

Well, thats my opinion and experience anyway... Hope that helps  :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 04, 2010, 05:44:26 AM
if any of you need more pictures of rail stock, I can readily take pictures from ground level and slightly overhead.
most common around here are old and new triple deck autoracks and propane tankers
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 05, 2010, 03:41:55 AM
Checksum, that looks very nice!  Perfect for grain service!

So, when you view the model in 3D, what rotation angles do you use to orient it correctly in Simutrans?

And, when we measure the size of a model in pixels, how do we do that?  Is the measurement taken directly across the image (on the x/y axes), or along the length of the model itself in the perspective view?

How is the accompanying .dat file laid out, and where is the program that takes the .png and .dat files and creates our pak files?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on December 07, 2010, 12:45:46 AM
Hi Railfan,

Thank you! I'm working on a few others as well.

Quote
So, when you view the model in 3D, what rotation angles do you use to orient it correctly in Simutrans?
I'm using SketchUp, so I build my models in 1 file, making all my edits there, open up the template mentioned in this post:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1849.msg42606#msg42606 (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1849.msg42606#msg42606)

This 'template' file has the angle set up so model is at the correct angle in relation to the model. I then just rotate the model/object to create the 2, 4 or 8 views, instead of the camera. If you download/use the template, I recommend the first thing you do is to "Add a scene". This makes a snapshot of the cameras position so if you change it accidentally or intentionally, you can jump back to that view. (by the way, it is nearly impossible to set the camera angle by hand). Once you add the new scene, and before you start copying in your models, save the template with the added scene and make a backup too.

Some people surely render their models with a different application (sketchup doesn't truly render). However, sketchup does a decent job of a low quality render, so you can just export what you are looking at to a PNG. I currently just use the pseudo-render Sketchup makes and edit it with a pixel editor from there.

If you want more pointers on SketchUp, let me know. There are 1 or 2 free application that will make nice renders also. And I can point you to a free pixel editor for Mac OS if you want.

If you plan on using blender, someone else will have to step in here because I don't use blender (I've tried but to me it is not nearly as intuitive as sketchup).

Quote
And, when we measure the size of a model in pixels, how do we do that?  Is the measurement taken directly across the image (on the x/y axes), or along the length of the model itself in the perspective view?

I'm not sure what your question is. In the 3D world, nothing is measured in pixels because 'pixel' is a screen resolution unit. A 3D model is independent of that measurement, except for how it is displayed on your screen. When you export a flat (2D) image (or render it), the output will have a size in pixels that you can further manipulate.

With the exported (2D) flat graphic, I typically use a template to set sizes and alignments of vehicles or buildings. There are templates that should work for any* pak128 here:
http://graphics.simutrans.com/thumbnails.php?album=9 (http://graphics.simutrans.com/thumbnails.php?album=9)

I usually take the template and use that as my base layer, paste in the pngs I created from SketchUp and then align and adjust the length manually to match the template.

Quote
How is the accompanying .dat file laid out, and where is the program that takes the .png and .dat files and creates our pak files?

I would start by looking at the wiki:
Quote
http://en.wiki.simutrans.com/index.php/Creating_addons

This will give you the basics. I would find an existing .dat file that is similar to what you want to create and edit it to meet your needs. There should also be a number of forum posts on this topic.



And while I'm here, attached is the set of freight vehicles I've built so far (models anyway).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 07, 2010, 01:55:12 AM
@checksumdigit
nice work!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 07, 2010, 02:21:56 AM
How about some new grade crossings for pak128.USA?  If it's possible to have different styles of crossings depending on the type of road surface, maybe we could do plain crossbucks for dirt and gravel roads, then move up to flashers, then flashers with gates, then flashers mounted on overhead cantilevers for the higher classes of road.

And what about a couple of other types of railroad signals?  It sure would be neat to have Pennsylvania RR position lights, or B&O color-position lights (CPLs) as options...

And will there be a different type of road to replace the cobblestone road since these aren't used in the US?  If so, I'd like to propose gravel on tar... this is still a paved road, but is cheaper to construct (and rougher) than blacktop.  It's typically used for minor county roads, as an improvement over gravel.

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 07, 2010, 02:30:15 AM
@railfan do you mean chip seal?
that stuff is terrible, but extremely cheap compared to a proper pavement.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 07, 2010, 02:33:34 AM
I'm not sure what chip seal is... what I'm talking about is when the road crews spray hot tar on the road, then roll fine gravel into it.  Once this type of pavement is laid, it's often 30 years (or longer) before it gets re-surfaced again (except to fill potholes).  This type of pavement is seen on minor roads in rural areas.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on December 07, 2010, 05:10:02 AM
My understanding is that only 1 crossing is permitted per way type.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on December 07, 2010, 05:38:11 AM
i think there's something in the pipeline.


ADD: winter image and timeline for crossings: winter images of [image][0] are [image][1]
Dwachs (author) May 13, 2010

FIX: loading crossings ignored timeline settings
Dwachs (author) 2 days ago
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 07, 2010, 12:50:26 PM
(http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=400d6d4b4467b091f8e908f25e2dd25a&action=dlattach;topic=4473.0;attach=14061;image)

Nice - but they are like from comic paks.
Is it intentional?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: IgorEliezer on December 07, 2010, 03:06:54 PM
Seems unfinished. They need just shadding and noise.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 07, 2010, 04:40:00 PM
Nice - but they are like from comic paks.
Is it intentional?

just need to turn off edges and edge profiles.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: checksumdigit on December 07, 2010, 08:30:10 PM
yes, this is just a view from SketchUp, not intended to be close to final.

@AEO, what freight cars are you hoping to see. You're welcome to send photos of any other types that you think would make a good addition to pak128.us.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 07, 2010, 09:58:59 PM
If the commodities in the standard pak128 are indicative of what will be in pak128.USA, I think we will need the following car types:

Boxcars (piece goods, paper, canned goods, and farm products)
Reefers
Autoracks
Gondolas (for steel), or coil steel cars with hoods
Other covered hopper types (short 2 bays for cement, and longer 4 bays for plastics)
Other tank cars for chemicals (possibly painted white or blue to differentiate them from those carrying oil?) and ethanol, and possibly corn syrup or LPG/propane gas if these industries are added as we've been discussing
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ӔO on December 07, 2010, 10:41:36 PM
yes, this is just a view from SketchUp, not intended to be close to final.

@AEO, what freight cars are you hoping to see. You're welcome to send photos of any other types that you think would make a good addition to pak128.us.
I would suggest some variations and legacy stock on top of what railfan has listed.
variations are the easiest and you can get pretty creative with them.

like the tanker car for instance. There are ones with some aerodynamic fairings, 3 domes on top, 2 domes, etc.
http://www.nyow.org/Articles/Butterdish/butter.jpg
http://tunnel13.com/dunsmuir/triple-dome.jpg

for autoracks, lumber and flatcars, there can be extended variations. I think the longest ones are 89ft long. Legacy stock would obviously be shorter.

And then there are the articulated cars. Well cars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_car , automax autoracks http://www.californiatrains.com/wish_you/vol_01_tehachapi/28_automax_woodford_090404.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnabel_car come to mind. Although, there's really no use for schnabel cars at this point in time.

There's no need to do all of them at once, it's up to you entirely, as there's no rush and we don't want to burn you out :)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 08, 2010, 02:06:45 AM
Photo references are available at www.rrpicturearchives.net.  They're categorized by car type, then by reporting mark.

For instance, to find autoracks, you would go to the home page, click on "Rolling Stock" in the menu at the left, then "Autorack" at the top of the list.  There are (as of this writing) 2,163 photos of autoracks on the site.  These include standard enclosed bi-levels and tri-levels, as well as articulated Gunderson Auto-Max and Thrall Articulated Bi-Level cars.  For cars on TTX-owned flats, note that ETTX reporting marks represent tri-level racks, and TTGX is for bi-levels.  Bi-level racks sacrifice one level in favor of higher inside clearances and are used for SUVs, light trucks, and vans.  Otherwise, the two types are virtually indistinguishable externally.  All are 89 feet long and either 18'10" or 19'0" tall.  There is another class which is 20'2" tall (TTQX) and these are tri-level cars used for larger vehicles, though not all railroads have sufficient clearances to handle these cars.

Please be aware that rrpicturearchives.net is almost exclusively modern equipment photographed within the past 4 or 5 years or so.  For older equipment, www.rr-fallenflags.org has a fantastic selection of bygone railroads and obsolete car types.  It's laid out quite a bit differently, and everything is grouped by railroad name.

@checksumdigit - Are you considering any locomotives by any chance?  Since I've never done renderings before, I want to sit back for a while and see what everyone else does, then if need be I'll consider learning how to use Sktechup and/or Blender and try and help fill in any gaps.  Also, we'll be needing an assortment of US-style trucks and semitrailers (though we could probably use a few straight trucks for smaller shipments or for companies just starting out).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on December 11, 2010, 06:24:15 PM
i view that´s working on the pak128.usa be beging.
but i have a little problem,a link wont not work:
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/ZUTAXA8Rsr/roads-v1.0.zip

it´s possibel too get this zipfile please?
i want be look on the new pakfiles

greenling
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 11, 2010, 06:36:44 PM
 ???
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: IgorEliezer on December 11, 2010, 09:15:56 PM
???

???

You know, English is not that easy language.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 11, 2010, 09:32:56 PM
So, does that zip file only contain roads?  Has any of the other pak128.USA material (buildings, vehicles, etc.) been released yet?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Reddog785 on December 12, 2010, 01:04:33 PM
i view that´s working on the pak128.usa be beging.
but i have a little problem,a link wont not work:
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/ZUTAXA8Rsr/roads-v1.0.zip

it´s possibel too get this zipfile please?
i want be look on the new pakfiles

greenling

May this help? http://translate.google.co.uk/

I know you aren't British but as I don't know your nationality I can't give you a link to Google Translae in your region.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 12, 2010, 01:32:01 PM
Files.simutrans.us does not exist. Its life had been ended before few months.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 12, 2010, 03:40:53 PM
Where are the US files located now?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 12, 2010, 06:29:26 PM
I don't know. I think that Isaac deleted it less any substitution. All I can tell you is - try announcements board.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: railfan727 on December 12, 2010, 06:32:43 PM
So what is the status of pak128.USA?  Is it still in development and not yet released, or released and no longer being distributed?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 12, 2010, 08:36:02 PM
I beg your pardon.

I really don't know because I don't care about it* - I think it is under development but its repository is somewhere else - because files.simutrans.us was not used only by pak128.USA - and not established only for pak128.USA.

* - because I help to develop pak128.CS - and sometimes also else paks with size 128 - but not more than by some wrong written good tips (advices?).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on December 13, 2010, 02:15:36 PM
There is, so far, no repository because there is not yet a definite "base set" to start from.  I would like to organize this, but every pak seems to have its own way of organizing directories, its own set of tools, the need for tools like Tilecutter that do not run on Linux (when tile-cutting should really be built into makeobj), the lack of an un-pak tool to recover source images from old paks that we have permission to use but no way of extracting the images or data, and so on.

Nor can I find any good information on how to write a script to automatically balance a pak, and that seems hopeless without one.

Anyone?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: jamespetts on December 13, 2010, 02:23:40 PM
Can Tilecutter not run under Wine?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Spike on December 13, 2010, 02:33:14 PM
When I was using Linux I cut the tiles manually ...

But TileCutter sure is more convenient.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on December 13, 2010, 09:34:52 PM
There are unpack tools, just ask VS.

About balancing: There is absolutely no way of balancing a pak set without playing it. YOu can make some rules, but in the end it needs playtesting and playtesting.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: vilvoh on December 14, 2010, 11:23:03 AM
Can Tilecutter not run under Wine?

It works but sometimes with small unexpected results. Shades works better.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 14, 2010, 04:15:07 PM
The file you guys are after contains the beta versions of the roads I painted, not a full pakset or anything close to one.. I had trouble getting the pavement markings to line up and moved on to another project.

However, if you want to experiment with them they are attached to this post in a pair of zip files (no sources).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 19, 2010, 07:52:12 PM
The first "complete" pak128.USA locomotive just rolled off the assembly line: the ALCO FA-1 and FB-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_FA).

It is available from its real life build dates 1946-1959 and has stats comparable to the prototype. Cost, gear, and maintenance are all rough figures, since there is nothing yet to extrapolate costs for this pakset. This vehicle was originally painted by Raven, I simply re-aligned it, removed special colors, added headlights to the A unit, and wrote a new parameters file.

Code: [Select]
obj=vehicle
name=ALCO FA
copyright=Raven & RFG
waytype=track
engine_type=diesel
freight=None
payload=0
speed=105
power=1160
gear=83
weight=115
cost=7440000
runningcost=137
intro_year=1946
intro_month=1
retire_year=1959
retire_month=5
constraint[prev][0]=ALCO FB
constraint[prev][1]=none
smoke=Diesel_black
sound=train-horn-diesel-0.wav
emptyimage[w]=ALCO FA.0.0
emptyimage[nw]=ALCO FA.0.1
emptyimage[n]=ALCO FA.0.2
emptyimage[ne]=ALCO FA.0.3
emptyimage[e]=ALCO FA.0.4
emptyimage[se]=ALCO FA.0.5
emptyimage[s]=ALCO FA.0.6
emptyimage[sw]=ALCO FA.0.7

Code: [Select]
obj=vehicle
name=ALCO FB
copyright=Raven & RFG
waytype=track
engine_type=diesel
freight=None
payload=0
speed=105
power=1160
gear=83
weight=121
cost=7420000
runningcost=131
intro_year=1946
intro_month=1
retire_year=1959
retire_month=5
constraint[prev][0]=ALCO FA
constraint[prev][1]=ALCO FB
smoke=Diesel_black
sound=train-horn-diesel-0.wav
emptyimage[w]=ALCO FB.0.0
emptyimage[nw]=ALCO FB.0.1
emptyimage[n]=ALCO FB.0.2
emptyimage[ne]=ALCO FB.0.3
emptyimage[e]=ALCO FB.0.4
emptyimage[se]=ALCO FB.0.5
emptyimage[s]=ALCO FB.0.6
emptyimage[sw]=ALCO FB.0.7

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on December 19, 2010, 08:02:31 PM
Could you sharpen this otherwise fine image a little? It looks very blurred to me.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 20, 2010, 06:21:18 PM
Could you sharpen this otherwise fine image a little? It looks very blurred to me.

I believe what you are seeing is just the small details, it looks great in-game I promise.

In any case, I put together another unit: an ALCO RS-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_RS-1). This image is already in standard pak128, but as a completely different unit. Available 1941-1960, realistic stats, estimated price, maintenance, and gear.  It was also darkened slightly and I correctly positioned the headlights.. Oh, and I flipped it around so it is no longer running backwards. ;)

Code: [Select]
obj=vehicle
name=ALCO RS-1
copyright=Raven & RFG
waytype=track
engine_type=diesel
freight=None
payload=0
speed=50
power=746
gear=101
weight=112
cost=1940000
runningcost=67
intro_year=1941
intro_month=3
retire_year=1960
retire_month=3
smoke=Diesel_black
sound=train-horn-diesel-0.wav
emptyimage[w]=ALCO RS-1.0.0
emptyimage[nw]=ALCO RS-1.0.1
emptyimage[n]=ALCO RS-1.0.2
emptyimage[ne]=ALCO RS-1.0.3
emptyimage[e]=ALCO RS-1.0.4
emptyimage[se]=ALCO RS-1.0.5
emptyimage[s]=ALCO RS-1.0.6
emptyimage[sw]=ALCO RS-1.0.7

Is anyone else actively working on this pakset?
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on December 22, 2010, 06:58:48 PM
The Alcos looking in the Pngfilebe good out!

greenling
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: ostlandr on December 25, 2010, 05:51:41 PM
I don't know if this will help, but:

The other day I was trying to "clean up" the PakSets on our old computer.  I added a folder called "pak_alt", copied all of Pak64 ("Pak") into it, and then "weeded" out my Pak 64 folder (too many buses!!!!) The next time I started the program, I had a choice of either "pak" or "pak_alt".   ???

So, apparently Simutrans doesn't care what's in a folder so long as the word "pak" is in the title.  That gave me the idea to create my own "pak_us" set by just dumping the appropriate pak files into the folder. 

I decided to check if anyone else on Simutrans is working on/interested in a pak.us, and wound up here!   8)

Balance is a problem, so I plan to install Makeobj and edit some dat files.  I am working on a quick-and-dirty spreadsheet tool to evaluate the cost per passenger/mile or ton/mile for road vehicles and trains.  That will let the set balance internally at least.  I am going to base running costs on kw, with decreases coming with advanced technology.  For example, when diesel engines for heavy trucks come out in the 1940s-50s, that will decrease the running cost per km.  Also, when "Aerodyne" type semi tractors come out in the '80s-'90s, that will reduce the running cost per km for a given kw rating.

"Gearing" will be fun to play around with too.  This should accurately replicate the different size drivers on steam locomotives, different gearing on diesels, and different final drive ratios in road vehicles.  Current plan is to use 100 kmh as a base for both road vehicles and trains.  A vehicle should be able to reach this speed (just) on level road/track with its full load (road vehicles) or tonnage rating (trains.)  Of course road/rail conditions limit this.  Consistent with US practice, I intend to have multiple versions of the same vehicles with different gearing.  For example, a standard 2-8-0 Consolidation steam locomotive (1-4-0 in European notation) will have a max speed of 100 kmh, a gearing of 1:1 (none) and enough power to pull a train of X tons to max speed (eventually) on level track.  Another version will have a max speed of 50 kmh and a gearing of 2.00:1, for hauling heavy trains on steep grades and cheaper track.  Or you could have several "Ten Wheelers" (US 4-6-0, EU 1-3-0) for general purpose (100 kmh, 1:1), freight (80 kmh, 1.25:1) or passenger (120 kmh, 0.8:1)
{Note:  I have to do the math yet to figure the gear ratios accurately- these are guesses.}
The same will go for road vehicles.  Since US manufacturers tended to build a "chassis-cab" which was fitted with different bodies for passengers, mail, freight, etc., the gearing for say an early 150kw truck can be changed to allow it to haul a decent amount of bulk goods (slowly) boxed goods more rapidly, and smaller (in weight) loads of passengers and mail at "highway" speeds (no need for 130 km speeds until the era allows the proper roads.)  Rather than include every vehicle, I would rather have one generic chassis/cab per decade or whatever, with different versions for each cargo.  (Not that I'd say no to complete sets of Mack, Ford, International, White, Kenworth, etc. vehicles.   :)
OK enough for now.  Will check back later with any progress I have made.  Will do this for my own use, and will obtain necessary permissions before posting anything online.  Would love to use the JNR steam locomotives as a base for a generic US set, since they look more US like than the BR sets.       
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: rfg123 on December 25, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
Thank you for your insight ostlander, in regard to your mention of steam gearing, I had considered the same thing, and finished the 4-4-0 to experiment with.. It was used for several decades in different gear configurations, easily the most popular steam locomotive of the 19th century.

This pakset is for the 128 size, but I certainly would not object to a 64 version..

I present the first steam locomotive for Pak128.USA, the 4-4-0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-4-0). Commonly referred to as the "American" or "Eight Wheeler" this locomotive was built by the thousands for US railroads from the first Baldwin creations in 1845 through 1900. Even after the turn of the century, the 4-4-0 served branchlines and logging railroads right up to WWI.

As usual the stats are simply generic and unadjusted. I was not 100% satisfied with the way this one turned out, but it is experimental after all. The good news is with this single unit, a large variety of 4-4-0 models can be represented. Some were geared for faster passenger trains, others for slow freight drags. Effectively this gives a solid, general purpose locomotive for most of the 19th century, with later locomotives being more specifically purposed. Later, the early versions such as this can be recycled for the 1900-1918 period for light density branch lines.

Code: [Select]
obj=vehicle
name=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler
copyright=Raven & RFG
waytype=track
engine_type=steam
freight=None
payload=0
speed=25
power=363
gear=109
weight=115
cost=7440000
runningcost=137
intro_year=1845
intro_month=3
retire_year=1900
retire_month=11
constraint[prev][0]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender)
constraint[prev][1]=none
constraint[next][0]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender)
smoke=Steam2
sound=train-horn-steam-1.wav
emptyimage[w]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.0
emptyimage[nw]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.1
emptyimage[n]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.2
emptyimage[ne]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.3
emptyimage[e]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.4
emptyimage[se]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.5
emptyimage[s]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.6
emptyimage[sw]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler.0.7

And the tender..

Code: [Select]
obj=vehicle
name=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender)
copyright=Raven & RFG
waytype=track
engine_type=steam
freight=None
payload=0
speed=25
power=0
weight=115
cost=7440000
runningcost=137
intro_year=1845
intro_month=3
retire_year=1900
retire_month=11
length=4
constraint[prev][0]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler
smoke=-1
sound=-1
emptyimage[w]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.0
emptyimage[nw]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.1
emptyimage[n]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.2
emptyimage[ne]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.3
emptyimage[e]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.4
emptyimage[se]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.5
emptyimage[s]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.6
emptyimage[sw]=4-4-0 Eight Wheeler (Tender).0.7

Please report any alignment discrepancies so they can be fixed.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Václav on December 25, 2010, 09:47:52 PM
Rfg123: May be I am wrong and there is some special reason for it but I would like to know it:

ALCO RS-1 costs only 19 400 CU per vehicle but other currently being locomotives (ALCO FA with ALCO FB and 4-4-0 Eight wheeler) cost 74 400 CU per vehicle.

It is very strange to me. I waited that locomotives would cost more and more as their intro year goes on - so the cheapest would be 4-4-0 Eight wheeler (with intro year 1845) and the most expensive would be ALCO FA with ALCO FB (with intro year 1946).
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: moblet on January 12, 2011, 06:42:49 AM
Nor can I find any good information on how to write a script to automatically balance a pak, and that seems hopeless without one.
I just discovered Simutrans, have a background in operations research and have been considering the balancing question with pakBritain (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6620.0), see spreadsheet attached to first post. Of course the pakset shouldn't matter, if a balancing process can work for one it can work for any pakset. I believe the only "true" way to balance a pakset is to balance lifetime revenue with lifetime costs for each item, but this requires that everything has an "economic life cycle", i.e. it becomes more expensive to operate as it gets older, and it eventually becomes more economic to replace it than to keep maintaining it. This creates a trade-off between capital and operating costs that makes a comparison between purchasing options, e.g. different vehicles or modes, meaningful. It would be fairly simple to write a script to balance the ratio of lifetime revenue vs cost between units. But there a slightly big problem in that Simutrans cannot increase operating costs with age, so it is not possible to implement such a method. It might be possible to implement a proxy for this for vehicles at least, by assuming an average age at which the player will dispose of each unit.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Donruggio on September 27, 2011, 11:16:16 PM
Regarding MUTCD 1971: It is worth remembering that very few of the roads had converted to yellow center stripes in 1971.  FHW, who issued the MUTCD gave states 2 years to adopt the guide and then a period of time to convert - usually 2 years for markings (most paint lasted between 1 and 5 years) and a couple of years for new signage.

1973 was the year of mass repainting.  So for any sim road, i'd use white and yellow up to and including that year, bar California, who completed transition that year.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: TrainMith on September 30, 2011, 05:41:10 AM
rfg123:   Looks very good.  Thank you for working on this.  I can't wait for pak128.USA to be available!   :D
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on September 30, 2011, 06:41:49 PM
TrainMith You must be wait Pak128.Usa do only be Exits on paper.
A Complette Playable Pakset do it not gives.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Packer on February 22, 2012, 04:44:29 PM
I dunno if I'm early or late to this party. A while back on the other forum, I resized Raven's pak 96 american sprites for pak 64.

http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/02617.0/index.html (http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/02617.0/index.html)

I suppose they could be resized by a factor of 1.5 to get them to pak 128. (or leave them with shorter vehicle lenghts to simulate longer trains)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on February 22, 2012, 05:31:28 PM
Good Day Packer
Nice to view you.
It Great that´s you be back in the Forum.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Packer on February 22, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
It's good to be back greenling.

In the timeaway from this forum, I was on the transport tycoon forums. I learned how to paint a bit better; and have access to the entire sprite set from the TTD/OTTD NARS2 set. One of the creators of the set PM'd the sprites to me to use as bases for making different vehicles for the pak. I don't know if the TTD graphics would work in Simutrans, and I'd have to get permission (I might have it, but I'd have to look to be sure)

In the link there is a few downloads of pak64 american trains. Granted they are a bit unbalanced, but there may be enough to start a pak64.USA.

So between the NARS Sprites and the modified Raven sprites, a pak64.US could be very well on it's way. Just need the sprites aligned (for the NARS ones), stats tweaked, and recoded.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: prissi on August 25, 2012, 08:40:03 PM
For OpenTTD desert scenario some magnificient new screenshots have been psoted:
http://goldrush.badbrett.se/#0.10
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: MilwaukeeXpress on January 04, 2013, 08:46:41 PM
what is the current status of pak128.usa?

I believe that adding a USA pak set to simutrans would really help re-introduce simutrans to north America.
even if we don't get to putting pak128.usa together, making more north American addons should definitely help increasing the number of north American players. (which could potentially help getting pak128.USA complete)

I believe that the most widely used passenger rail cars in north America include the super liner, the amfleet, and the Bombardier Bi-level coach.
I have been working on making a Bi-level coach addon. it needs a little more work and adjustments, but it should be done pretty soon. I am more than happy to let people repaint my addons as long as I am given credit:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11184.0
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on January 04, 2013, 10:53:47 PM
Hello MilwaukeeXpress
the projekt pak128.usa sleeps at moment.
To wake up those projekt need you first some more people the live in the usa.
Can you try to make you friends on this game to alive.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: sdog on January 04, 2013, 11:54:54 PM
greenling, are you suggesting to relocate simutrans pakset-developers to re-locate to the US? :-) (just joking)
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: Fifty on January 05, 2013, 02:16:58 AM
MilwaukeeXpress,

Pak 128 USA has largely been abandoned, mostly due to a lack of material, in favor of pak 64 USA (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?board=130.0) (click for child board). There is a good deal of available material, particularly from Open TTD in the 64 size. While the project may not appear very active, both Packer and I are working on it behind the scenes. There is already a complete US rail timeline with over 400 vehicles, and many buildings from open TTD and pak 64.

If you're interested in working on the 64 pakset, contact Packer, he's the de-facto head of 64.USA and he can tell you more about the graphic style and needs. Many objects can be resized and touched up from pak 128 versions with permission. From what I know, there is a lack of road vehicles and ships right now.

Any help would be appreciated!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on January 05, 2013, 12:21:59 PM
Pak 128 USA has largely been abandoned, mostly due to a lack of material, in favor of pak 64 USA (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?board=130.0) (click for child board).

With pak64.USA proceeding, perhaps we could direct the 128 efforts into a pak128.USA-experimental ... the Sounder equipment is lovely, MilwaukeeXpress!
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: MilwaukeeXpress on January 06, 2013, 01:15:43 AM
first, thank you for all of your replies.

To wake up those projekt need you first some more people the live in the usa.
Can you try to make you friends on this game to alive.

haha I will do my best.

If you're interested in working on the 64 pakset, contact Packer, he's the de-facto head of 64.USA and he can tell you more about the graphic style and needs. Many objects can be resized and touched up from pak 128 versions with permission. From what I know, there is a lack of road vehicles and ships right now.

thank you for your suggestions, I looked into pak64.usa, and I tried drawing in 64, but I realized that I am not very good at drawing at such small scale...
I think I will continue working on making more North American addons to encourage more people in the US and Canada to start playing simutrans.

With pak64.USA proceeding, perhaps we could direct the 128 efforts into a pak128.USA-experimental ... the Sounder equipment is lovely, MilwaukeeXpress!

I agree, pak.128 appeals to a wider range of players than pak64. and I think pak128.USA should be a priority. and thank you for you complements :)

here is my latest work: Sound transit (operator of Sounder commuter rail) Express bus, New flyer C40LF.
I know it's still far from complete, but any constructive feed back is appreciated.
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: greenling on January 06, 2013, 11:56:08 AM
MilwaukeeXpress
Raven once had an addon of railway vehicles from the United States.
Also sometimes gave it a addon which for the Dutch railways.
There was also an addon for European roads.
But this addon's are lost then the PNG and dat's.
And the recovery is still in work.

Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: MilwaukeeXpress on December 19, 2013, 05:18:47 AM
I'm not sure why you would consider it to be lost... I can find it all here
https://github.com/simutrans/pak128/tree/master/material/raven_railways/vehicles.AMTRAK
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: wlindley on December 19, 2013, 12:16:31 PM
I'm not sure why you would consider it to be lost... I can find it all here
https://github.com/simutrans/pak128/tree/master/material/raven_railways/vehicles.AMTRAK (https://github.com/simutrans/pak128/tree/master/material/raven_railways/vehicles.AMTRAK)

Thank you! I was unable to find those bits when pak128.USA was first proposed. 

I suppose "all one has to do" is follow the Creating Paksets (http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_creatingPaksets&structure=en_Devel_Index&page_ref_id=461) instructions on the wiki...
Title: Re: pak128.USA
Post by: MilwaukeeXpress on November 26, 2014, 11:18:28 PM
I found an awesome Amtrak Add on on a Japanese site, my fellow americans, check it out:

http://wikiwiki.jp/twitrans/?addon%2Fpak128%2Ftrain10
http://ux.getuploader.com/twitrans_works/download/171/Amtrak_Set.zip

Disclaimer: I do not own this add on or the image posted.

(http://Amtrak_Set.png)