The International Simutrans Forum

PakSets and Customization => Pak128 Bug Reports => Pak128 => Pak128 Solved Bug Reports => Topic started by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 01:43:17 PM

Title: [fixed] Same cost and intro date for tram tracks
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 01:43:17 PM
Hey, I just downloaded a nightly version of pak128. I love it, but there is one thing that is still annoying me a bit... The tram track costs for different types are exactly the same, no matter the speed (ranging from 50km/h to 110km/h), which is unrealistic. I already suggested changing it in this release thread (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8423.0) and fabio agreed with my suggestion. Will this be fixed? :) A differentiation in introduction dates could also make the game more realistic. I can help with suggesting costs and dates, I'm afraid I won't be too much of a support in fixing it inside the data files.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: VS on January 12, 2012, 02:04:41 PM
Then please suggest the numbers :)
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 02:34:33 PM
In my opinion current costs are fine with the 70km/h [250.00 (6.00)] tracks and all other can be changed corresponding to it. It is common in Simutrans that tram tracks have higher costs than simple rail tracks, as they have the obvious advantage of putting them onto roads.

50 km/h [200.00 (3.00)]
70 km/h [250.00 (6.00)] intro 1960
90 km/h [500.00 (10.00)] intro 1980
110 km/h [750.00 (15.00)] intro 1990

This is based mostly on my gaming experience and some basic knowledge about tram history in my home city. The faster tracks won't be really of any use until trams which are capable of such levels appear.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Markohs on January 12, 2012, 02:50:58 PM
90 km/h are the most used ones in my games, since no tram can go faster than about 80 in a city because stations are too close of each other. I'd personally keep current 90km/h price and scale rest from that.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 03:53:25 PM
I think keeping the current cost of 90km/h and scaling from that would make the price too low. Tram lines are already quite easy to make profitable.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: VS on January 12, 2012, 04:53:26 PM
I've committed data per Arkadiusz's suggestion, and introduced the fastest track in 2003 (random whim). Can you please test this a bit, preferably in real games? (This is for me nearly impossible ::( ) I'm mostly concerned with the two lowest ones, since I think they would be used most.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 04:57:15 PM
Sure thing, I can give it a test as soon as you upload a new nightly or patch, I was up to start a new game of pak128 anyway.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Markohs on January 12, 2012, 05:31:25 PM
I don't think tram lines are that profitable, Arkadius, think this change will make trams not viable except on big cities with lots of stations (more than eight) and more than 2 trams, anyway I'll test it too.

I's that or downgrade rails to 70 kmph
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: VS on January 12, 2012, 05:50:54 PM
Well, everyone is welcome to test and comment - in fact, that would be the ideal thing to happen :)

As to speeds... In my mind, the hierarchy is: bus < trolleybus < tram < underground/other. As the city grows, its transport system progresses, too. But that's just a theory how this could be. Personally I'm not too happy to see trams in streets going faster than the road speed limit, and then, what would the faster trams be? Suburban trains, perhaps?
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 12, 2012, 07:27:57 PM
Yeah, modern hierarchy is like this and I agree with this concept :) One thing I would consider is maybe lowering the cost of 50km/h tracks or adding an even cheaper type for 30km/h to make the really early tram lines profitable. In the 21st century we consider trams something natural for urban areas. Yet in my region there was a train line active from 1900 to 1960 that was going from one town 20 km deep into the mountains up the hill into some villages. VS, you might be a bit familliar of it, as it was just on the other side of what now is the polish-czech border (jelenia góra - podgórzyn tramline) in the Karkonosze mountains (yours Krkonoše).
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Markohs on January 12, 2012, 07:55:22 PM
 The thing is that using the default station coverage of 2x2, stations are 4 tiles away from each other.

 Aproximate numbers that I just observed:

 A empty RVg T110 (January 2009) with his acceleration reaches 84kmph before decelerating
 A empty RVg T108 ( March 1982) reaches 74
 A empty RVg T107 (March 1970) reaches  60
 A empty Due WAG GT6 (March 1951) reaches 69

 So, until RVg T108 appears (1982) 70kmph rails are worth and enough, after that, 90kmph ones are needed to take some extra profit from the speed. Might be non significan since we can assume trams use to be 90% full and might not reach those speeds.

 I'm talking about urban trams, longer distance trips on tram will benefit from faster tracks.

 That's why I don't want 90 kmph ones to be more expensive in maintenance that are now (an extra 66% maintenance cost that I feel as too high, since you only gain about 30% extra speed, doesn't feel balanced), but maybe Arkadiusz is right, I'll test when I get the pak nightly.

 Anyway this change can have the consequence of the player needing to use different tracks on different sections of the network. While I personally like this, might make harder to players to make profits from trams, and make playability worse.

 But that's just my oppinion. ;)
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Fabio on January 12, 2012, 08:10:47 PM
Faster trams could be used in modern times as suburban links, like s-bahns, especially after i will release my overdue batch of sirio-eurotram-combino etc... which can run in compositions of 2-3 tiles or more.
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Markohs on January 12, 2012, 08:14:18 PM
This one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7UON6UJFLo they look great ;)
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Fabio on January 12, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
Exactly ;D

you can check it out here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7793.0

the set is ready, i just want to check some alignment...
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Zeno on January 13, 2012, 11:33:28 AM
Fabio, whenever you need to I can make a quick balance to those trams. I will need only the dat files, and I can do that with a couple of clicks, so please feel free to ask me for that!! :)
Title: Re: Tram track costs are the same for all types and speed
Post by: Fabio on January 16, 2012, 02:19:13 PM
Fabio, whenever you need to I can make a quick balance to those trams. I will need only the dat files, and I can do that with a couple of clicks, so please feel free to ask me for that!! :)

Here the sources:

Download the sources here:

http://public.gonella.eu/simutrans/tram/vehicles/trams.zip
Title: Tram tracks intro date
Post by: HDomos on January 22, 2012, 10:06:11 PM
I downloaded the new pak128 2.0.0 and i noticed, that all tram tracks have the same introduction date. Is this a bug, because i can't see the point to build 110km/h tracks in 1930 :)
Title: Re: Tram tracks intro date
Post by: Zeno on January 22, 2012, 10:32:17 PM
It is not a bug but a well known TODO task... thanks for your report anyway! :)
Title: Re: Tram tracks intro date
Post by: Fabio on January 22, 2012, 11:07:36 PM
It's already fixed in nightlies and obviously will be in next stable.

By the way, welcome to the community.
Title: Re: [fixed] Same cost and intro date for tram tracks
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 23, 2012, 10:04:46 AM
By the way, when I go to the nightly page now, there is no link for a version of 128, neither 128.britian.
Title: Re: [fixed] Same cost and intro date for tram tracks
Post by: Zeno on January 23, 2012, 07:12:01 PM
I can see both links there... check this (http://simutrans-germany.com/~nightly/simutrans/es.html#_NPaks) out.
Title: Re: [fixed] Same cost and intro date for tram tracks
Post by: Arkadiusz on January 23, 2012, 07:14:05 PM
Yes, there they are now. Thanks