The International Simutrans Forum

Development => Extension Requests => Topic started by: Spartanis on July 31, 2012, 11:57:27 AM

Title: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Spartanis on July 31, 2012, 11:57:27 AM
I am not sure if this was mentioned before (searching the forum yeilds no result) but...


As with roads, you can build a two way road tile where vehicles can use both directions. Can it be possible to do the same with Rail?


An example from SimCity 4:


(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1593/buildarailunderpass01.jpg)
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: kierongreen on July 31, 2012, 12:04:45 PM
This is a request that has been previously rejected.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Spartanis on July 31, 2012, 12:13:32 PM
Understood and thanks Kieron! :)
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on July 31, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
It is my understanding that the main reason for not making a dual rail waytype is that it would be a distinct waytype from the existing rail waytype. Vehicles will only be able to operate on one of them, and the two can't be connected. This would just be confusing, and limit the usefulness.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Fabio on July 31, 2012, 03:14:39 PM
On the other hand, this way type could be used for vehicles which are neither trains nor road vehicles, like the rubber tyres subways (VAL system and others).
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Rebelfish on September 13, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
However, between monorails, roads, rails, narrow-gage (depending on the pak), I think one think Simutrans doesn't need is another land-based variation of way type.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Fabio on September 14, 2012, 10:16:05 AM
Quite the contrary.
Railways, narrow gauge, maglev, monorail, and tram basically share the same set of rules (one track per tile, drive by signals).
Roads set of rules (two lanes per tile, drive by sight), instead, is applied only to roads.
The idea here is to create one or more road-like ways, or maybe even a hybrid system (e.g. Double lane butt drive by signals).
The best option would be way types created dynamically in the paksets, defined by the set of rules they follow: track, road, or hybrid.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: sdog on September 14, 2012, 05:27:13 PM
If the extension (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8906) Isidoro and Dwachs TurfIT were working on, to extend multi lane roads (very extensive and deep changes in the ribi system) would be realized in the far future, it might be worth to discuss this again. At the moment it appears to be in proposal stage.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: isidoro on September 14, 2012, 11:00:11 PM
On my part, I reached a dead end.  So if anybody wants to retake it, just do it.

Now I'm giving my scarce time to the project I started some years ago...

Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: The Hood on September 15, 2012, 07:12:34 AM
Quite the contrary.
Railways, narrow gauge, maglev, monorail, and tram basically share the same set of rules (one track per tile, drive by signals).
Roads set of rules (two lanes per tile, drive by sight), instead, is applied only to roads.
The idea here is to create one or more road-like ways, or maybe even a hybrid system (e.g. Double lane butt drive by signals).
The best option would be way types created dynamically in the paksets, defined by the set of rules they follow: track, road, or hybrid.

Along these lines I've always wanted trams which follow road rules rather than rail rules, which would allow double track/single tile tramways making it much easier to build tram routes in cities. Besides, most on-street tramways follow similar rules to roads rather than trains.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on September 15, 2012, 07:47:15 AM
Along these lines I've always wanted trams which follow road rules rather than rail rules, which would allow double track/single tile tramways making it much easier to build tram routes in cities. Besides, most on-street tramways follow similar rules to roads rather than trains.

Last time I saw this brought up, it was pointed out that having trams behave as cars would remove the advantage they have be being independent of road traffic while occupying the same tiles. If trams are not to drive in the center, they must be treated as cars and get stuck along with them in traffic jams.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Bear789 on September 15, 2012, 02:26:58 PM
Last time I saw this brought up, it was pointed out that having trams behave as cars would remove the advantage they have be being independent of road traffic while occupying the same tiles. If trams are not to drive in the center, they must be treated as cars and get stuck along with them in traffic jams.

Well, that's what happens in real life, unless trams run on dedicated tram lanes. And even even in that case, they can get stuck at crossroads, unless the lane is completely grade separated. But at that point it's a light metro system, not a tram.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: The Hood on September 15, 2012, 08:07:56 PM
Yes, that's exactly why I want them - so that in on-street sections they get blocked by traffic but have the ability to build segregated sections which normal road traffic can't go on.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on September 15, 2012, 08:47:51 PM
In that case, one might as well remove the tram waytype altogether, since it probably wound be easier for trams to behave like and intermingle with road traffic if they actually were road vehicles. The segregated sections would be like some form of private road, the implementation of which might also enable highways inside cities that don't degrade to slow city roads.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: isidoro on September 16, 2012, 12:39:29 AM
To get rid of them, one can just not use them in a pak...

Another interesting feature of present trams is that trains can drive on their tracks as well.  And that allows a railway to diagonally intersect a road.

Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Bear789 on September 16, 2012, 07:58:59 AM
There are some rare cases of heavy rail trains running in the middle of a street. In Switzerland there's the famous (at least in Europe) Rhatische Bahn, for example. I saw on Youtube something that looked like and american train too.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: greenling on September 16, 2012, 08:09:35 AM
Bear789
Yes thats have i be view to.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on September 16, 2012, 08:19:41 AM
Another interesting feature of present trams is that trains can drive on their tracks as well.
After looking at how waytypes look in pak files, tram doesn't look like a fully fledged waytype. It looks like a subtype of track.

And that allows a railway to diagonally intersect a road.
That's a bit of a cheat, since unlike proper intersections, cars can drive straight through the trains.

To get rid of them, one can just not use them in a pak...
How can we make sure paks don't use both, to the total confusion of the player?

There are some rare cases of heavy rail trains running in the middle of a street. In Switzerland there's the famous (at least in Europe) Rhatische Bahn, for example. I saw on Youtube something that looked like and american train too.
Since the tracks themselves in Simutrans have waytype track, with system type tram (elevated is also a system type), one could perhaps rename the system type to street running. (Which would still allow for diagonal intersections.)
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: VS on September 16, 2012, 09:31:18 AM
How can we make sure paks don't use both, to the total confusion of the player?
Pakset maintainers certainly aren't that dumb. Simply release an incompatible version and that's it. And the people who mash all addons together will continue to do so, anyway.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on September 16, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
Pakset maintainers certainly aren't that dumb. Simply release an incompatible version and that's it. And the people who mash all addons together will continue to do so, anyway.

And they will complain that the game is too complex and strange, either here, elsewhere or to themselves, giving the game a negative reputation.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Vonjo on September 16, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
I'm not sure, but...
(http://japanese.simutrans.com/index.php?plugin=ref&page=Addon128%2FRoadTools%201&src=Road_Tram_Set.png)
http://japanese.simutrans.com/index.php?Addon128%2FRoadTools%201
:)
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: kierongreen on September 16, 2012, 02:25:08 PM
This extension is just a road wayobj. In effect these are trolleybuses, but with rails drawn on the road surface. This doesn't allow you to have off road sections of track (you can cheat by having "not roads" with private signs set up though). A lot of the addons on the japanese site are well drawn, clever ways of getting around restrictions in simutrans, but require a lot of extra work to use so can't be thought of as a proper solution.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: VS on September 16, 2012, 02:51:02 PM
@Ters:
Hm... After thinking a bit more about this, I guess it is unlikely that engine-level incompatibility would be introduced at all. And other solutions would probably introduce and expose some duality... Come to think about this, the premise of this thread is not about retiring the current trams, anyway :)
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Ters on September 16, 2012, 03:14:37 PM
Making that Japanese hack into a proper solution was what I had in mind, though I didn't know they had done something like that. There certainly is a lot of fundamental things in the game that probably should have been done different if Simutrans were to start all over again, such as for a sequel.
Title: Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
Post by: Vladki on September 18, 2012, 09:02:41 PM
There is also a similar czech hack - tram track implemented as trolleybus electrification.
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8596