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Author Topic: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads  (Read 8754 times)

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Offline Spartanis

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Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« on: July 31, 2012, 11:57:27 AM »
I am not sure if this was mentioned before (searching the forum yeilds no result) but...


As with roads, you can build a two way road tile where vehicles can use both directions. Can it be possible to do the same with Rail?


An example from SimCity 4:



Offline kierongreen

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 12:04:45 PM »
This is a request that has been previously rejected.

Offline Spartanis

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 12:13:32 PM »
Understood and thanks Kieron! :)

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 01:52:54 PM »
It is my understanding that the main reason for not making a dual rail waytype is that it would be a distinct waytype from the existing rail waytype. Vehicles will only be able to operate on one of them, and the two can't be connected. This would just be confusing, and limit the usefulness.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 03:14:39 PM »
On the other hand, this way type could be used for vehicles which are neither trains nor road vehicles, like the rubber tyres subways (VAL system and others).

Offline Rebelfish

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »
However, between monorails, roads, rails, narrow-gage (depending on the pak), I think one think Simutrans doesn't need is another land-based variation of way type.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 10:16:05 AM »
Quite the contrary.
Railways, narrow gauge, maglev, monorail, and tram basically share the same set of rules (one track per tile, drive by signals).
Roads set of rules (two lanes per tile, drive by sight), instead, is applied only to roads.
The idea here is to create one or more road-like ways, or maybe even a hybrid system (e.g. Double lane butt drive by signals).
The best option would be way types created dynamically in the paksets, defined by the set of rules they follow: track, road, or hybrid.

Offline sdog

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 05:27:13 PM »
If the extension Isidoro and Dwachs TurfIT were working on, to extend multi lane roads (very extensive and deep changes in the ribi system) would be realized in the far future, it might be worth to discuss this again. At the moment it appears to be in proposal stage.

Offline isidoro

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 11:00:11 PM »
On my part, I reached a dead end.  So if anybody wants to retake it, just do it.

Now I'm giving my scarce time to the project I started some years ago...


Offline The Hood

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2012, 07:12:34 AM »
Quite the contrary.
Railways, narrow gauge, maglev, monorail, and tram basically share the same set of rules (one track per tile, drive by signals).
Roads set of rules (two lanes per tile, drive by sight), instead, is applied only to roads.
The idea here is to create one or more road-like ways, or maybe even a hybrid system (e.g. Double lane butt drive by signals).
The best option would be way types created dynamically in the paksets, defined by the set of rules they follow: track, road, or hybrid.

Along these lines I've always wanted trams which follow road rules rather than rail rules, which would allow double track/single tile tramways making it much easier to build tram routes in cities. Besides, most on-street tramways follow similar rules to roads rather than trains.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2012, 07:47:15 AM »
Along these lines I've always wanted trams which follow road rules rather than rail rules, which would allow double track/single tile tramways making it much easier to build tram routes in cities. Besides, most on-street tramways follow similar rules to roads rather than trains.

Last time I saw this brought up, it was pointed out that having trams behave as cars would remove the advantage they have be being independent of road traffic while occupying the same tiles. If trams are not to drive in the center, they must be treated as cars and get stuck along with them in traffic jams.

Offline Bear789

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 02:26:58 PM »
Last time I saw this brought up, it was pointed out that having trams behave as cars would remove the advantage they have be being independent of road traffic while occupying the same tiles. If trams are not to drive in the center, they must be treated as cars and get stuck along with them in traffic jams.

Well, that's what happens in real life, unless trams run on dedicated tram lanes. And even even in that case, they can get stuck at crossroads, unless the lane is completely grade separated. But at that point it's a light metro system, not a tram.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 08:07:56 PM »
Yes, that's exactly why I want them - so that in on-street sections they get blocked by traffic but have the ability to build segregated sections which normal road traffic can't go on.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 08:47:51 PM »
In that case, one might as well remove the tram waytype altogether, since it probably wound be easier for trams to behave like and intermingle with road traffic if they actually were road vehicles. The segregated sections would be like some form of private road, the implementation of which might also enable highways inside cities that don't degrade to slow city roads.

Offline isidoro

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 12:39:29 AM »
To get rid of them, one can just not use them in a pak...

Another interesting feature of present trams is that trains can drive on their tracks as well.  And that allows a railway to diagonally intersect a road.


Offline Bear789

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 07:58:59 AM »
There are some rare cases of heavy rail trains running in the middle of a street. In Switzerland there's the famous (at least in Europe) Rhatische Bahn, for example. I saw on Youtube something that looked like and american train too.

Offline greenling

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 08:09:35 AM »
Bear789
Yes thats have i be view to.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 08:19:41 AM »
Another interesting feature of present trams is that trains can drive on their tracks as well.
After looking at how waytypes look in pak files, tram doesn't look like a fully fledged waytype. It looks like a subtype of track.

And that allows a railway to diagonally intersect a road.
That's a bit of a cheat, since unlike proper intersections, cars can drive straight through the trains.

To get rid of them, one can just not use them in a pak...
How can we make sure paks don't use both, to the total confusion of the player?

There are some rare cases of heavy rail trains running in the middle of a street. In Switzerland there's the famous (at least in Europe) Rhatische Bahn, for example. I saw on Youtube something that looked like and american train too.
Since the tracks themselves in Simutrans have waytype track, with system type tram (elevated is also a system type), one could perhaps rename the system type to street running. (Which would still allow for diagonal intersections.)

Offline VS

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 09:31:18 AM »
How can we make sure paks don't use both, to the total confusion of the player?
Pakset maintainers certainly aren't that dumb. Simply release an incompatible version and that's it. And the people who mash all addons together will continue to do so, anyway.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 10:18:37 AM »
Pakset maintainers certainly aren't that dumb. Simply release an incompatible version and that's it. And the people who mash all addons together will continue to do so, anyway.

And they will complain that the game is too complex and strange, either here, elsewhere or to themselves, giving the game a negative reputation.

Offline Vonjo

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 02:14:18 PM »
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 02:22:18 PM by Vonjo »

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 02:25:08 PM »
This extension is just a road wayobj. In effect these are trolleybuses, but with rails drawn on the road surface. This doesn't allow you to have off road sections of track (you can cheat by having "not roads" with private signs set up though). A lot of the addons on the japanese site are well drawn, clever ways of getting around restrictions in simutrans, but require a lot of extra work to use so can't be thought of as a proper solution.

Offline VS

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »
@Ters:
Hm... After thinking a bit more about this, I guess it is unlikely that engine-level incompatibility would be introduced at all. And other solutions would probably introduce and expose some duality... Come to think about this, the premise of this thread is not about retiring the current trams, anyway :)

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2012, 03:14:37 PM »
Making that Japanese hack into a proper solution was what I had in mind, though I didn't know they had done something like that. There certainly is a lot of fundamental things in the game that probably should have been done different if Simutrans were to start all over again, such as for a sequel.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Dual Way Rail waytype - Similar to Roads
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 09:02:41 PM »
There is also a similar czech hack - tram track implemented as trolleybus electrification.
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8596