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Offline Roads

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waiting on the way
« on: September 01, 2012, 12:33:46 PM »
I'm not sure if this is a bug so I'm posting here because, well, like I said, I dunno.


The steel train from Mars Hill to Baby Grand needs to wait at Baby Grand after every trip because it takes longer for the steel mill to make a load of steel than it does for the train to make the trip.  That I suspect would appear obvious to even newbie players.  Of course the train could wait at Mars Hill but that's six of one, half a dozen of the other...


Anyway, I ran a few sections of track away from the station at Baby Grand and put a way point there.  Then I set the way point to wait for 100% load.  This I planned to micro manage since I can't set a time on a way point.  I noticed that when I set the way point to 100%, all way points went to 100%.  Ugh.  Oh well.  Since I am micro managing - no problem.  However, it didn't take long for the train to begin ignoring the 100% load - it did not ignore it immediately, not sure how long it was, but it did eventually begin ignoring the instruction.  **** train engineers.


So what I had to do was set one section of station where the way point was and this worked fine.  The problem is that it is costing me $72 per month.  This might not sound like much but please consider the train is making $0!

Offline VS

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 01:49:53 PM »
Just trying to understand the situation: Why do you even need to wait on a track in this way? Is it because you have only one platform and need to keep it empty while other trains bring resources for processing?

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 02:55:22 PM »
yep

Offline Zeno

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 03:11:04 PM »
I never even thought of making trains wait out of the station. I just use two platforms: one for unload, one for load. If loading more than one good type, one platform per good type for load, one for unload everything. It would be nice to see if others do different things...

Offline VS

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 03:54:11 PM »
I do it the very same way :) But Roads' question is reasonable too...

Offline Ters

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 04:01:13 PM »
I have trains waiting outside of stations, but that's trains on the same line waiting in queue for their loading platform. For factories that are located in the middle of a chain, I always have a dedicated platform for unloading. Giving vehicles the ability to wait on a waypoint shouldn't be impossible to code, but this kind of timing is probably very fragile.

Offline VS

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 05:02:56 PM »
It feels more "correct" to handle this with a condition (proceed when next station has goods). But programmable schedule sound like a nightmare for beginners...

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2012, 05:37:50 PM »
That sounds good to me, VS.  Actually though it would not have to micro managed if the way point load requirement was respected and you could set an amount of time to wait.  It shouldn't take very long to figure out how long the train would need to wait.

I had thought of using separate platforms for loading and unloading but dismissed this idea as being too expensive...

Offline TurfIt

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 05:46:48 PM »
Then I set the way point to wait for 100% load.  This I planned to micro manage since I can't set a time on a way point.  I noticed that when I set the way point to 100%, all way points went to 100%.  Ugh.
Actually you only thought you set them to 100% load. Waypoints can't have either a %load or a waittime. When you selected the waypoint item in the schedule, the 'minimum load:' text turns grey, but the entry box remained enabled. Bug in the GUI IMHO, easy to fix...

Seperate loading/unloading platforms is the normal approach.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 07:39:36 PM »
Roads: you can set some wait time at the unload station, so that you don't have to wait on waypoint on the track.

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2012, 08:11:19 PM »
@TurfIt

Ah, I bet the train was just waiting for clearance when I thought it was waiting for the load requirement.

I did not know the separate loading/unloading platform was a normal approach since I guess I like learning things the hard way.  Still I think the mark of a great strategy game is to allow more than one way of doing things.  It gives the player options...not a recipe...I don't want to bake a cake...

Offline prissi

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 08:29:32 PM »
Since waypoints ignore waiting  times or loading level, the gui stayed enabled is a confirmed bug.

Offline Ters

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 09:24:10 PM »
I'm a self-learner too, but figured that if I didn't have a separate unloading platform, I would risk having a train waiting for a load, but never receiving any because the factory is waiting for supplies from a train that can't get to the platform because the first train is there waiting. Back then, timed waits were not possible, but even now I wouldn't dare using timed waits for this, because if the supplying train gets delayed, it would fall apart.

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2012, 09:59:57 PM »
Ters, I see what you are saying but that would only be a problem if the train was waiting at the steel mill.  I had it wait at the unloading point to avoid exactly the situation you are talking about.  If I were hauling something that was not a dead head run such as goods, the way point would be worthless.  It is only good for items that are one way only.

Offline Ters

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2012, 10:27:18 PM »
But what is it waiting for at the unloading station? It's at the loading station it knows whether there is goods for it.

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2012, 11:30:39 PM »
At the time, the steel mill was the busiest place on the map and I did not want another vehicle there, possibly in the way for some reason or other.  I knew it was going to be a long time before the load of steel was ready and I wanted to get a handle on how long the train would need to wait so I could set the wait time.  I could do this since I was using a station instead of a way point.

The train did not need to know when another load was ready, I was going to tell it how often to go the steel mill and make a pick up. 

Offline Ters

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 08:47:37 AM »
Then it's timing again. If for some reason a supplying train has been delayed, there will be little or nothing to load when the other train arrives. If the loading train isn't set to wait for load at all, it will run empty or half full and lose money. Unlike the deadlock situation, the game won't warn me when this happens. If one sets a longer waiting time to be safer, the station will eventually become crowded with goods, causing potentially bothersome warnings.

Pak set differences might have something to say here, though. With pak64, it's almost absolutely necessary to have trains running fully loaded in one direction in order to make a profit. A few extra platform tiles on the other hand has never ruined my economy. I think I have just a single freight train that doesn't wait for 100 % load, no matter how long it takes. That is a small and cheap shuttle train between two nearby stations/factories, where interconnections cause goods to flow both ways. In this case, space restrictions make it difficult to add an extra platform in order to have two trains, with one waiting for full load at one station, and the other waiting for full load at the other.

A pak set where trains are profitable even when not full, and where platforms cost a fortune to maintain, the situation would be different.

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 05:21:06 PM »
Ters, I only run trains with less than 100% when they carry goods both ways (that is what makes them profitable), except for extraordinary circumstances.

The difference in the game we are playing is that I like little quantities with variety and complex connections.  Huge cities and transporting huge quantities of passengers does not appeal to me at all.  It is just a difference in taste.  I thought and still do that Simutrans can accomodate both of us.  We'll see.

Offline Ters

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2012, 06:09:57 PM »
I don't think our preferences are that different, it's just that I don't like leaving things to chance. The only way for a train to be sure to pick up a load, is for it to wait for a load at the loading station. And the only way to be sure to avoid a deadlock is to have a dedicated platform for unloading, as well as one for each loading line. Though I have a wish for the ability to tell a train to wait somewhere, until there is a load waiting somewhere else.

I don't like huge cities either. Plotting bus lines is boring.

Offline Roads

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Re: waiting on the way
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2012, 06:57:43 PM »
Now I understand.  Yes Ters, you are right if you are not watching the factory inventory and station quantity regularly.  Of course you wouldn't want this level of micro management for all your vehicles.  I would only use it for special cases such as steel where I have only one train and it takes a long time for it to load...perhaps only once per month or more.

It was very desirable in this last little game because both the coal plant and stone plant were putting out huge quantities to one of their customers and starving the other.  The only way I could manage that without adding station extensions was to have multiple routes and switch trains between these routes.  That meant the production of a load of steel could take six months!