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Offline mEGa

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Cross country skiing resort
« on: September 25, 2012, 08:51:14 AM »
Hi,
I think that Simutrans misses attractions of winter sports.
This one could allow to generate passengers and messages traffic on the mountainous countries.
So I decided to create first addon : a cross country skiing resort.
Little description :
In winter we see skiers running on path and In summer resort is transformed into a forest of pine trees where it is pleasant to walk.





Do you think that is a good idea for "international" pak128 ?

I have also question in progress :
- I draw snow on pine trees but I noted that this effect is too much set against pine trees of game.

What do you mean about it ?

Your feedbacks are welcome ;)

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:49:51 PM by mEGa »

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 09:12:32 AM »
Really lovely! I think your pines with snow are very good, but indeed they are different from the standard winter pines. I personally think that is a bug in pak128 itself. From version 0.99.09 you can have snow versions of trees, but pak128 has never used that apparently. Maybe you can change that in pak128 too!

While I like your picture very much, I just notice that the track is flat. Maybe you can make it more hilly? Very likely that is too much to ask, because I can imagine that is very difficult to draw!

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 03:32:54 PM »
mEGa, there's a saying here in the U.S. about opinions but I won't relate it here since it is a bit off color.  At any rate I've got one too.

I love the ski resort!  Combuijs has a good point but it might require a much larger area for hills.  The snow in the parking lot and on the skiing path is really good!  You might consider using a nicer building.  I do not think the snow on the trees work.  Maybe it is too heavy and concentrated in the middle of the trees.  When it snows here, it is the outer limbs that bear the heaviest load.  You might try just sprinkling the trees with snow if you are not completely satisfied with how it looks currently.

All things considered, I think it will be a terrific addition to the pak.

Offline greenling

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »
mEGa
Your Cross county skiing resort looks very gerat out. ;D

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 03:53:28 PM »
Thank for your pleasant feedbacks.

Really lovely! I think your pines with snow are very good, but indeed they are different from the standard winter pines. I personally think that is a bug in pak128 itself. From version 0.99.09 you can have snow versions of trees, but pak128 has never used that apparently. Maybe you can change that in pak128 too!
OK, it is big work to improve trees in winter with snow !

While I like your picture very much, I just notice that the track is flat. Maybe you can make it more hilly? Very likely that is too much to ask, because I can imagine that is very difficult to draw!
Yes true ! Very, very hard ! I tried this afternoon and I was not satisfied by the result!

I do not think the snow on the trees work.  Maybe it is too heavy and concentrated in the middle of the trees.  When it snows here, it is the outer limbs that bear the heaviest load.  You might try just sprinkling the trees with snow if you are not completely satisfied with how it looks currently.
OK, I knew it ! i will try to just sprinkling the trees as you said it.

About building, I just wanted to represent an improved hut hosting guards of resort in journey.

Well there is a completed pak with 4 views (SEWN) , Winter/summer, playable in spite of the night lights and the correction of the transparent pixels remain to make
After corrections and improves I will propose all the pakset (pak + sources)

http://www.simutrans-france.fr.nf/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=fr:cross_country_skiing_resort.pak

If you want to test it...

Offline VS

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 07:19:02 PM »
Beautiful!

I personally think that is a bug in pak128 itself. From version 0.99.09 you can have snow versions of trees, but pak128 has never used that apparently.
Correct. I tried to add some snow to trees, but... they sucked mightily. So nothing yet.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 10:55:47 PM »
Lovely!

Just two notes:

1) Skiers are just too big compared to pedestrians

2) Snow is too white and too flat... try using default snow texture, maybe whitened a bit...

Offline el_slapper

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 02:04:50 PM »
[Dream mode on]
And there will be more pax in winter, less in summer, & nearly none in spring & automn?
[Dream mode off]

I remember a version of A-Train I did have on a PS1. Ski resorts were active only 3 months a year. So you had to shut off your train 9 months a year. Not sure it fits Simutrans scope, though.

That being said, I like it a lot.  8)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
I took account your observations.
 I drew again only for the south view.
1) I darkened the snow according to snow texture of the game.
2) I designed again completely the snow on pine trees
3) I decided to change the skiers...Because they look like ghosts ! I make them look like more the pedestrians of the game.

make 3D effects and volume for snow and traces is more difficult as I thought ! Result is not so good...

When the improvements will be validated, I shall apply them to the other views(sights)

compare it with previous snapshots.


In summer time, I also decided putting cyclist on path.


Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 03:09:16 PM »
Fabio, I don't think I agree that the skiers are too big.  Likely they would look that way if the Simus we normally see were in the same screen shot as the skiers.  Since you don't have that direct comparison and the size of the skiers look right in the ski screen shot, I think I would want to leave it as is.  If the skiers were any smaller I'm afraid they would be hard to see.

Actually their size and body type compared to the usual Simus reminds me of Everquest and other RPG games where you had Elves and Halflings.  Both looked right in the game even though there was a big difference in body size.  But maybe I'm just not sensitive to this issue because of the many years I played RPG games...

BTW, there is a default snow?

Offline greenling

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 05:07:25 PM »
mEGa
What for a Size have the Cross country skiing resort?

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 10:30:48 PM »
I had not seen the last screen shots when I made the previous post.

Have to admit, I like the people better...especially like the cyclist.

About the snow - it looks better but wondering if it is needed at all.  If the pak is not going to have snow on the trees then even if the trees looked extraordinary, they would serve to remind the player that something was amiss with the surrounding trees.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 11:07:13 PM »
Awesome, mEGa! I love those tiny skiers!

BTW, there is a default snow?
Sure! The snow climate texture: http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/simutrans/pak128/landscape/grounds/texture-climate.png

If the pak is not going to have snow on the trees then even if the trees looked extraordinary, they would serve to remind the player that something was amiss with the surrounding trees.
Actually most spruces (and bare treed as well) will drop their snow a few days after it snows, so the default pak128 trees look good enough IMHO. Maybe here only 2-3 of them should have snow on...

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 06:44:20 AM »
Thanks for the texture links, Fabio!  I'm sure not only the snow but all the others will come in handy when painting houses and such since I like having a little ground around a building sometimes.  This especially would be the case of a tent in the desert.  Sometime, someday...I would really like to paint one of those like you see in the desert sometimes.  If not placed in a city it would be really nice looking near a small lake with the palm trees...

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2012, 10:41:21 AM »
mEGa
What for a Size have the Cross country skiing resort?

4x5 tiles

Offline greenling

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 05:12:51 PM »
Ok The Size it 4x5 Tiles.
Thank you.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 03:37:43 PM »
Hi,
My last improvement :

1) I improved look of guard's hut (summer flowers and lights)
2) I improved pines trees effect (summer and winter)
3) I  improved pedestrians with more cyclists and walker (with dog)
4)  I added wooden tables and wooden signs indicator
...

I corrected some bugs (transparent pixels), and verify night lights (Grrr)





If you're agree, I 'm going to begin modifying other faces (E, W and N)

Offline sdog

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 07:45:19 PM »
The tables and benches in the summer version are missing in the winter version. It's untypical to remove them for winter though. You could put snow heaps in their place.

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2012, 08:23:24 PM »

mEGa, What you have done here is good.  I hope it will be included in the pak.


That said, sometimes my imagination runs away with me and here is my idea.  The ski path looks great!  Would it be possible to make it a way and make the skiers, walkers and cyclists act like vehicles?  That way the player could make the ski path as big as he wanted and whenever he scrolled over the area he would see, in winter, skiers on the slopes and other seasons, Simus walking and cycling.  I think it would help to "bring the world to life" which is something else I dream about.


The ski path could also, if someone, maybe me eventually, creates a dog sled, which I think would be totally awesome and something I've wanted equally to a camel caravan in the desert.


Modify:  Now that I think about this some more, it could be more than just eye candy.  The Simus could pay for the privilege of using the path, the engine, not the player could generate the Simus based on some algorithm for transportation availability (more available, more Simus).  Actually it could be a money sink and just be a prestige thing if a player could afford to have a ski resort in his game.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 09:40:25 PM by Roads »

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2012, 10:46:36 PM »
With the latest winter image, the skier closest to the grooming machine looks to my eyes like he's actually a cyclist.

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2012, 02:57:46 AM »
TurfIt just made me see the cyclist in the summer image. I very much like him, wouldn't have thought it was possible with so few pixel to have such a good looking one.

Offline VS

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2012, 11:06:16 AM »
Wow :D This is beautiful!

Maybe you could try the suggestion from Sarlock and desaturate the trees under snow? ( http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=10555.0 )

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2012, 03:15:06 PM »
I read attentively the last answers.

With the latest winter image, the skier closest to the grooming machine looks to my eyes like he's actually a cyclist.
you're right and Sdog too. my skiers and cyclist have same source. I'll try to improve skiers so that they look like better skiers of cross-country skiing. Hard !
 @VS : I read the Sarlock's post.  I am going to try to improve it particulary create a little more volume for the snow.


That said, sometimes my imagination runs away with me and here is my idea.  The ski path looks great!  Would it be possible to make it a way and make the skiers, walkers and cyclists act like vehicles?  That way the player could make the ski path as big as he wanted and whenever he scrolled over the area he would see, in winter, skiers on the slopes and other seasons, Simus walking and cycling.  I think it would help to "bring the world to life" which is something else I dream about.
Great Idea... But I mean it's too ambitious for me. If somebody (graphist or/and developper...) could help me, we can suggest a special project for this ?
The ski path could also, if someone, maybe me eventually, creates a dog sled, which I think would be totally awesome and something I've wanted equally to a camel caravan in the desert.
Good idea too. In can try to draw dog sled, but imho 4x5 tiles area will be too small for all these elements (skiiers, dog sled...) ?
Modify:  Now that I think about this some more, it could be more than just eye candy.  The Simus could pay for the privilege of using the path, the engine, not the player could generate the Simus based on some algorithm for transportation availability (more available, more Simus).  Actually it could be a money sink and just be a prestige thing if a player could afford to have a ski resort in his game.
A questions for developers I mean... But interesting suggestion.

Finally I have to work again a lot. Not so bad, because, for example, the snow of trees will serve as templates for my next realisations.

EDIT :
Oups I forgot this :
The tables and benches in the summer version are missing in the winter version. It's untypical to remove them for winter though. You could put snow heaps in their place.
I know Sdog. I wanted this effect. In France, some wooden tables in private park are take off in winter. But indeed, I can leave them and put snow (and why not ski path near tables)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 03:27:21 PM by mEGa »

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2012, 03:24:09 PM »
Thanks mEGa for addressing my idea on the ski resort.  My guess is there is either not much interest in it or it would be a very ambitious project and no one capable is interested in taking it on now.  If you really like the idea just stash the idea away because I'm planning on hanging with Simutrans and the coding work I'm learning now...we might get this going sometime.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »
Skiers and hikers could be animated. I mean they could slowly walk/ski around the circuit. It might require an insane amount of frames, but it might be worth a try. First step, as you resume your painting, you could isolate them in a front image, so that you can release your attraction and later you or anybody else can attempt to animate the front images without bothering with the landscape. Anyway, animation is better segregated in the front image, as it requires much less memory.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2012, 03:46:01 PM »
Skiers and hikers could be animated. I mean they could slowly walk/ski around the circuit. It might require an insane amount of frames, but it might be worth a try. First step, as you resume your painting, you could isolate them in a front image, so that you can release your attraction and later you or anybody else can attempt to animate the front images without bothering with the landscape. Anyway, animation is better segregated in the front image, as it requires much less memory.
Thanks Fabio for precision. I thought it was possible... But I face a dilemma :
seen the work to be planned, I have to choose to create 4 faces of the addon or realize the animation on one face.
I been afraid that to make animated persons on 4 faces is a titanic task, isn't it ?

Offline Fabio

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2012, 04:43:16 PM »
Being 4*5 you need at least 2 rotations.
If you decide to go 4 rotations, keep anyway the people in front image, animation can come in a second time.

There are tricks to reduce the required number of frames.
E.g. I estimated the circuit's length in 1792 px. If there are 16 or 24 skiers, they can be divided in 8 groups and the animation can span for 1/8th of the circuit and then loop.
1/8th of the circuit is only 224 px. If they ski at 4 px per frame the required frames in winter are 56.
This is a small example, one could optimize it even better.

Offline VS

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2012, 04:56:31 PM »
Animation? Well. Sounds rather insane at this scale. The reusing method would be absolutely necessary, but requires such homogeneity in elements that I dislike the idea... Don't let that stop you, though :)

How does animation in one season affect the other season? That will need the same amount of frames, no?

Not unrelated - perhaps the skiers need transparency?

If you eventually do decide to spend the time making animations, I'll spend some time creating a tool to post-process the animated images to minimize them. It will be easier programmatically. But don't let that fool you into thinking I'll save you any time. You will grow a beard before you are finished :D

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2012, 12:34:59 PM »
thanks for your advises.
Finally I decided to create at first the 4 faces with improvements I explained before. So I could propose a "basic" pak.
But I also like this challenge.  Accordingly I shall secondly try to make an animated pak.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2012, 01:21:52 PM »
Hi,

come back after few days...
Here new version of south winter view (template). Improvements are :
- desaturated spruce trees as VS suggested
- skier was improved (he isn't cyclist any more)
- tables are here now under snow as Sdog suggested
- 3D effect from path is little improved

Sorry but I have not created dog sied yet. ( Not enough place imho)

EDIT :
Certainly, if Sarlock grants me, I 'll put his excellent trees. What do you mean about it ?

Offline greenling

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2012, 01:35:20 PM »
mEGa
The Cross country Skiing resort on the Photo looks very good out.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2012, 02:43:47 PM »
mEGa, here is the spruce tree as it exists right now:



I will probably make some more changes to it so I haven't done all of the ages, but you can just resize it if you want.

Put it in to a different layer so that you can change it if I change the design.

Enjoy!

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2012, 09:05:21 AM »
Thanks Sarlock. I'll distribute it between another trees early ! So you can see result soon.
Note : I'll add your nickname to copyright parameter of course !

Offline Roads

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2012, 10:53:20 AM »
mEGa, Somehow I had missed your post with the new graphic.  It's got a much more colorful and lively look.  I like it even better!

No worries about the dog sled.  The dogs would probably frighten the skiers anyway. :)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Cross country skiing resort
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2012, 02:41:05 PM »
Last improvements :

I Know, I am not really satisfied by the wintry aspect of my big fir tree...
Beyond that, I tried to distribute the Sarlock's fir tree and completely redrew the snow on trees.



Except for new distribution of trees, I improved guards hut (flowers) and added tracks made by the grooming machine for melted snow
I think to myself that I can begin drawing other faces...