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Offline Hitardo

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1st and 2nd Class passengers
« on: November 15, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
Let me start by saying how much I love to play Simutrans.
I love the way things are put together, how much you have to think before you act, the ability to change the terrain and much more.
Simutrans is the BEST :)
Actually, I confess I talked about Simutrans with some professor of mine, and they adore the idea, and are thinking about create a community inside my university.

But now, let me go strait to the point:

I experimented a excellent particularity in pak128.Japan.
The ability to transport 1st and 2nd Class Passengers.

It is an huge opportunity to make money. Giving the player the option to focus on one or another service, or to make different services for the different Classes, with different planes/trains/road vehicles and its schedules.

As seen in pak128. Japan, we could have a taxi service, a Concorde plane and Maglevs.

I know it is very difficult, but I think It will be great!!

But what will be awesome is: the ability to choose the balance between 1st and 2nd class passengers when buying a plane/car/bus/train...

I will be waiting some feedback.
Congrats!!

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 09:30:36 AM »
IIRC pak18.Japan actually simply uses the freight mail as "1st class passengers" by just renaming it and classifying highend passenger vehicles for this new type of "mail" (= using the existing mail game mechanics). But there is no mail as such left in this pakset. So it's actually just a trick so far.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 12:04:38 PM »
So, I ask: is there a way to add more one good?
Because, as far as I see it, passenger, mail and coal is the same.
The only thing that changes is the name, revenue, bonus and the vehicle cargo type.

Am I seeing this in a too much simple way?

Offline Combuijs

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 12:30:31 PM »
Yes, that is too simple. Coal is generated by factories (coal mines) and produced on demand. Passengers and mail are generated by cities and produced automatically. You can define new goods and new factories, but you can't add easily add a third passengers type.

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2012, 12:35:04 PM »
It might be great, when defining new goods in a pakset, to be able to choose a "type" among pax, mail, and ware.
pax- and mail-like goods would behave like their namesakes, whereas ware would just be common goods like it is now.
There could be a ratio e.g. first_class generation could be set to 5% of pax.

Offline Carl

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2012, 02:25:04 PM »
It's worth noting that Experimental approximates this feature with its "comfort" mechanism. Different passenger vehicles have different comfort levels, and passengers are willing to pay more to travel in more comfortable accommodation (think of "comfortable accommodation" here as being first class, restaurant cars, etc). I'm not sure whether passengers have differing comfort requirements -- but I do know that passengers will require more comfort the longer their journey.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 03:23:16 PM »
Ok. Seems far.

But I still think it is a great idea, that would bring more difficulty to the game.
Being more challenging.

But, as I said before, nothing is better than Simutrans :)

Offline Milko

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 03:28:58 PM »
Hello

The routing mode provides that to go from A to B there is one and only one path for each individual good. It is therefore not possible to define two different paths for passengers according to the comfort.

I'm not sure whether passengers have differing comfort requirements -- but I do know that passengers will require more comfort the longer their journey.

Giuseppe

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 03:53:03 PM »
First class being a different "goods" type would address this: there would pax routes (with the "best" winning) and first_class routes (with the best winning), just as mail and pax can and often have different routes. The only drawback would be that first_class would need to be handled separately from origin to destination, hence having also dedicated feeder lines (e.g. taxis).

Talking  of good types, it would be nice to have 4 types of "goods".
- pax: transport building to building
- ware: transport factory to factory
- waste: transport building to factory
- delivery: transport factory to buildings

Each pakset-defined good should belong to one of these types.
E.g.
pax, first_class, and mail: pax
iron, coal, books, oil, gasoline, etc...: ware
garbage: waste (collection door to door)
groceries, newspapers: delivery (delivery door to door).

Production rates of wares would be factory-defined and wouldn't change present behavior.
Generation rates of pax-like would depend on building level, with different rates according to res, com, and ind building type (current behavior, but additional pax-like would require new pakset-defined rates)
Production rates of waste-like goods would be similar to pax generation, with additional rates.
Production of delivery goods would be factory-defined, similar to wares.

Stations could have selective storage, e.g.: enables=pax,first_class,mail

This would give paksets greater customization, from present behavior to extremely complex goods types.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:14:00 PM by Fabio »

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 04:10:50 PM »
The fact that first class passenger would be different all the way makes this seem too artifical to me. It might work if the category system was hierarchical, so that both first and second class passenger could be a subclass of passenger, but I don't think it is.

Fabio's suggestion of pax, ware, waste and delivery could be interesting.

Offline Bear789

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 08:43:00 PM »

Each pakset-defined good should belong to one of these types.
E.g.
pax, first_class, and mail: pax
iron, coal, books, oil, gasoline, etc...: ware
garbage: waste (collection door to door)
groceries, newspapers: delivery (delivery door to door).

Production of delivery goods would be factory-defined, similar to wares.

Rather than a door to door delivery, it would be interesting if delivery goods would go to commercial buildings and consumer "factories" like greengrocers and markets are removed.

This would also make the consumption rate dependant on the city size: currently a market in a huge metropolis consumes the same amount of goods of another market in a three buildings village.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 09:12:57 PM »
I thought markets and wholesales were commercial buildings. (That they're implemented as a type of building called factory in the code is an implementation detail, though it may shine through in some of the texts.) But it would make sense that every town has one, and more as they grow. Consumption could perhaps be tied to the number of passengers, rather than city population, which the passenger boost may be used for.

Offline Bear789

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 09:45:56 PM »
I ment another thing: in the city buildings list (public service menus), buildings are labelled as residential, commercial and industrial. I don't know if that's just cosmetic or it's actually functional somehow (passenger and mail generation level, perhaps?).
Since Fabio suggested door to door delivery, it would be interesting if commercial city buildings consumed finished goods. This would make commercial "factories" superfluous and would automatically make the city consume more goods as it grows, since it would spawn more shops.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 10:13:09 PM »
Talking  of good types, it would be nice to have 4 types of "goods".
- pax: transport building to building
- ware: transport factory to factory
- waste: transport building to factory
- delivery: transport factory to buildings

I was also thinking about this, especially the waste collection stuff. Then I thought also about commercial buildings as final consumers, and then even about industrial buildings as sort of factories without contracts (consume something, produce something). But then I thought, well this would be completely different game, which I would like to play...:)

However pak128.britain, where final consumers are small shops in the city, is pretty close to the "delivery" idea.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2012, 05:44:07 AM »
I ment another thing: in the city buildings list (public service menus), buildings are labelled as residential, commercial and industrial. I don't know if that's just cosmetic or it's actually functional somehow (passenger and mail generation level, perhaps?).
Since Fabio suggested door to door delivery, it would be interesting if commercial city buildings consumed finished goods. This would make commercial "factories" superfluous and would automatically make the city consume more goods as it grows, since it would spawn more shops.

The thing is that if a building is a specific consumer of something (I assume that you don't want every commercial building to be a consumer of a little bit of everything), it becomes more than a normal building, which is what factories are. Since consumer factories spawn when city grows, it would also spawn more shops as it grows, but it could perhaps spawn more often, and of lesser size.

Offline transporter

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 07:36:43 AM »
garbage: waste (collection door to door)
groceries, newspapers: delivery (delivery door to door).

Production rates of waste-like goods would be similar to pax generation, with additional rates.
Production of delivery goods would be factory-defined, similar to wares.

I like that garbage/newspapers idea! You want difficulty, try finding an efficient route door to door.

Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 09:54:37 AM »
The mail is asymmetric. Industrial and commercial buildings produce more mail than they recieve. One the other hand industrial building produce less passengers, tahn commercial and residential. Attractions produce even more asymmetric, more than 1/8 recieved/sent.

If you want to play with generic ware accepted everywhere, then there is OpenTTD. But in the end ware will not be much different from mail or first class or whatever. Just an additional net. Even wares going to every building are not different than passengers going from factory to every building in catchment. Only there is not return, i.e. trucks have to return empty then.

The only thing which may enrich the game is imho waste, since it goes from buildings to factories, which is somewhat unique. Those garbage dumps/recycling centers would have then been linked to population sizes.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 09:58:35 AM »
I think you are overthinking and overcomplicating things

.Ok, my idea started with the 2 classes of passengers (1st and 2nd class).
.The garbage idea came up. That's a good one!!
.The newspaper and other goods (food, wine, milk, etc...) is complicated a system that is already good, I think. If you want this system, simply add (with public service) the shops to sell the goods to increase difficulty.

I do not have any idea how complicated it will be to program it, but want will be great is add levels to the building, as it has already passengers and mail.
Now, the buildings have passengers and mail level.
How difficult it will be to add another level?
A 1st Class Passenger Level. That acts the same way as (2nd Class) Passengers and Mail.
It could be a percentage of one of the two that already exists. Five per cent as someone suggested.

Garbage is a great idea!!
But the complicated thing with it is: garbage do not have the will to travel from point A to B. It simply needs to go from point A to B.
The way to manipulate/get away with this problem is to create a factory that produces garbage/trash. This factory/trash container, as to be created in the middle of the city (unlike other factories that are created outside town) and treatment centres have to be created to consume that trash.

We can increase the chain.
The Treatment Centres can produce two things: electricity or fertilizer to farms.
Fertilizer can also be produced with Oil Refinery.

What do you think?
And do you have to say about adding other level to the buildings (1st Class Passenger)?

Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 10:44:10 AM »
Another levle of special passenger like freight is not useful, imho, as already almost never mail is transported much. Even well developed maps never go above 10-15% mail coverage, but up to 70% of passenger coverage. This I do not see many people using such a third independent network.

Waste would be different, as it is a cargo that can be processed into fertilzer, glass, electricity of only dumped. Thus you would need a collecting network (i.e. making slow small trash truck expensive.) and long distance transport to the processing/dumps by making those high speed trucks as well as trains or ships relatively cheaper.

Offline Combuijs

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2012, 11:02:16 AM »
I am in the "almost" category then: I always try to have full mail coverage in a game.

But, yes, I don't see the need for an extra third category.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2012, 11:27:03 AM »
Adding more complexity does not offer more strategic game play.  I can not see any strategic possibilities here.  What difficulty does is make the game more interesting until you learn how to do it, then it's point and click until the task is done.

The down side is making the learning curve steeper for beginners.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2012, 11:41:43 AM »
Ok, I admit that 1st class passengers will turn the curve steeper and complicate networks. I admit that.
But I continue to admire that idea, with the possibility to build different terminals, different networks with different vehicles and schedules.

The garbage idea is a pretty good idea!!
But I do not think it will be possible - here is where the programmers can help me and correct me - to take what is in the buildings (like passengers and mail) to factories.
Or is it?
Because if it is, it will be awesome.

If it is not possible, I will suggest the creation of a local trash service, like shops (furniture, newspaper, meat, milk, etc...) and then a factory outside the town to produce electricity or other things.

What is your idea?

Offline The Hood

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2012, 01:30:34 PM »
If 1st class were to be implemented in a way which is intuitive, I would suggest it for experimental in combination with speed/comfort. Split the passenger demand up: some prefer fast routes, some prefer comfortable routes, others want the cheapest (why else can EasyJet or RyanAir run a profit?!??!). A whole separate network for 1st class doesn't make much sense to me.

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2012, 02:31:25 PM »
Goods categories and single goods could be both selected for vehicles, with preference for the specific good.
E.g. there are bulk cars but there could be specific coal cars as well. If a route is served by both, coal goes into coal cars, if only bulk, coal goes into bulk cars (good category).
This would apply perfectly to first class being a sub category of pax.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2012, 03:59:19 PM »
Goods categories and single goods could be both selected for vehicles, with preference for the specific good.
E.g. there are bulk cars but there could be specific coal cars as well. If a route is served by both, coal goes into coal cars, if only bulk, coal goes into bulk cars (good category).
This would apply perfectly to first class being a sub category of pax.

This is what i meant with hierarchical category system. In computer programming terms, there would be abstract goods types. No factories would produce or consume abstract goods types, nor would they have a value or speed bonus, but there would be vehicles able to carry them.

Oh, and by the way, I almost always build a parallel mail route when I build passenger routes.

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2012, 04:06:59 PM »
1st class usually means you have to reserve your seats before hand and pay a small fee for increased luxury. It also means you decrease carrying capacity of those who don't want to pay extra.

Also, people who can pay for 1st class, would normally rather just use their own car to drive themselves, if they could.

Also, with regards to reservations, quite a lot of airline seats are booked in advance.


I don't really see a good way of implementing passengers with higher demands in service.

Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 04:54:23 PM »
Implementing garbage as special freight from buildings with only factories as destination is actually rather trivial. The only thing missing is the routine which suitable garbage processing factories. All the other stuff is there and can be reused.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 06:07:09 PM »
That would be a cool network to have :D

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 08:56:23 PM »
Implementing garbage as special freight from buildings with only factories as destination is actually rather trivial. The only thing missing is the routine which suitable garbage processing factories. All the other stuff is there and can be reused.

Can I help somehow to see this garbage collection thing done?

Offline sdog

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 10:36:15 PM »
If 1st class were to be implemented in a way which is intuitive, I would suggest it for experimental in combination with speed/comfort. Split the passenger demand up: some prefer fast routes, some prefer comfortable routes, others want the cheapest (why else can EasyJet or RyanAir run a profit?!??!). A whole separate network for 1st class doesn't make much sense to me.
Most sensible idea so far.

1st class pax as an own category does not work very well, since also all local lines and buses would need first class vehicles. Having sub-categories as someone suggested would solve this, but is a complicated sollution to something that could be achieved much easier through comfort level.

It isn't important that one pax has always the same properties, it's the average that counts. The way experimental does it is likely good enough.

Offline sdog

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 10:44:09 PM »
Implementing garbage as special freight from buildings with only factories as destination is actually rather trivial. The only thing missing is the routine which suitable garbage processing factories. All the other stuff is there and can be reused.
Instead of having garbage created at buildings, would be a change in factory code allowing more, local facilities be an alternative? Such that every town builds a waste site after it reaches a certain size, also a bakery and a supermarket. That way we could have the typical problem of distribution (collection) from many small sites, without having to cluster all cities with cargo stops and running countless local lines. (Mail is bad enough already with low-capacity mail trucks clogging everything.)

The consumption of those factories could be dependent on the city size. Eg. in the same way as the transformer code for city electricity supply already does.


Someone (AvG or AP) experimented a bit with something like this a while ago: He changed dat files of consumer industries to accept very small amounts and placed them manually in all cities. (Couldn't find it ad-hoc, perhaps someone could point us to the thread.)

Offline isidoro

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 11:12:06 PM »
What about a garbage extension building?  I have seen some stops with mailboxes integrated.  These stops extensions would have garbage containers integrated.

Would garbage have a destination or would it be possible to throw it in whatever industry capable of processing it?



Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2012, 03:31:13 PM »
Gargabe could be a fourth special freight which needs to be eanabled at stops like good, mail and passengers. Or garbage could be enabled like normal freight, which would mean much less effort programwise (and also more consistency).

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 04:23:21 PM »
Waste only has two or three ultimate destinations, land fill, incinerator or compost, but collection is similar to buses.

If it were implemented like a factory, where you only have the collection facility to link to land fill or otherwise, then it's already possible by giving garbage its own goods category.

For waste collection to be meaningful, it should be up to the player to collect it from various dwellings and deliver the waste to land fill, etc.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 04:55:55 PM »
1st/2nd
  • for Experimental: how about, passengers traveling to a "commercial" destination have a higher preference for comfort, while passengers to an "industrial" destination prefer lower price or speed.  Passengers to residential areas have the current preference.
  • As a test, the above could be simulated by increasing the weighted preference for comfort when traveling to stops with Mail capacity, and increasing the preference for speed when traveling to stops with Goods capacity.
Garbage:
  • A Garbage Collection Facility could be coded as a combination of Factory and Monument, exactly one of them to be built in each city reaching a certain size.  It would send a new category of Goods, to a Landfill.  I shudder at the alternative of Garbage Trucks (or, like in Grandmother's day, horse-drawn wagons) stopping at each house and delaying the mail trucks that are delaying my buses!

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 06:15:50 PM »
It wouldn't have to be each door, just each bus stop (or ad hoc garbage collection point with station coverage), pretty much like it happens with mail. Destination would be land fill (final consumer), incinerator (producing power), or recycle plant (producing glass, plastics, paper and maybe some metals). Each garbage "bag" would have a destination, but routing should ensure it's the closest plant of one of those 3 types.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 08:14:28 PM »
Yes, collecting garbage from bus stops with garbage extension, or special garbage stops, would be fine. Recycling factory is already prepared. However it would be nice to have two kinds of garbage - unsorted garbage as special cargo with special vehicles, and "waste for incinerator" as bulk cargo, so that we can have waste chain like this: buildings -> recycling factory -> incinerator/landfill


Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 08:25:01 PM »
To extend the waste chain, current factories should be required to use a % of recycled material to produce new material, that is; paper mill would need to also consume % of recycled paper from recycle center. This could easily be done for paper, plastic, steel and glas by adding new requirement to dat file, this also would not effect save games as it would apply to new factories built. Pickup points for the "special garbage" could also be added to current factories as a production item. We all ready have a factory "garbage dump" which is self generating just need to change output into two cat, "special garbage" and "waste"

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2012, 09:01:09 PM »
Well, now I have a recycling factory that does miracles :) it produces paper, glass, plastic a steel of the same quality as new. But I would like to see the recycling in different way - optional input materials. For example paper mill will accept wood and old paper. If only wood would be supplied, then it will produce paper in the same way as it does now. But if some old paper would be supplied, then the need for wood would decrease. But it should not be possible to make new paper entirely from old. Similarly supplying steel scrap would reduce the consumption of iron ore in steel mill, etc.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 09:16:43 PM »
Yes, I agree. You expressed it much better than I did. Recycle center is just a sorting plant and any use of recycled material must be met with a reduction in consumion of raw material by the original production plant however it does compound the changes needed to allow factory the option of using or not using recycled material to make finished products.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2012, 09:20:29 PM »
Wait a minute. Wasn't this discussion about 1st class passengers, not garbage?  ???  Suggest one feature, and a dozen other feature requests cling onto it.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2012, 09:44:24 PM »
I want an ice cream truck!   ...with a bell!

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2012, 10:56:54 PM »
It all spawned by my idea of more flexible goods categories, which would allow pax-like and mail-like new goods (like 1st class pax, or garbage).

About garbage.
I wouldn't like additional products required in chains, as chains are already way too complex, at least in Pak 128.
I rather see recycled products as a replacement of normal goods, so that e.g. you can have a map with factories using glass without needing a glass chain, and so on.

Offline treiskin

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 12:59:29 AM »
I believe in Fabio's idea. We should definitely have a recycling plant. It would let the player not have to build a railroad/road/canal/airport/tram all the way to that factory and the ones connected to it. It would make it so all you have to do is connect your system to the landfill and then BAM, you have a easy goods loop, easy.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2012, 01:17:01 AM »
Try this: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128/factory.recycling_factory_111.pak

Maybe someone can help me balancing it a little. Simutrans tends to use it too much, making several of them to produce glass for one brewery, but not creating any glass mill...

Offline treiskin

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2012, 01:42:18 AM »
Which pak is this factory for? I loaded it into PAK.128 and it didn't come up in the factory list.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2012, 05:30:32 AM »
re: garbage.
Isn't this already achievable with current pakset factory dynamics?  Just set waste to be an output item for any factory and voila, you've created a waste stream.  Create recycling depots that are urban and have a set percentage of waste received turned back in to end products... steel, goods, etc.  Of course, this creates a bit of a circular loop/recursive situation where an end factory feeds goods back in to itself via the recycling depot... not sure how Simutrans would handle this or whether it would care.  Might be better to handle that as waste being an end delivery factory (landfill) and leave it at that.
Setting all buildings or commercial buildings to produce garbage probably isn't a good idea... as mentioned, mail is already onerous enough if you choose to fully service a city.  With a limitation of 1 road vehicle per tile, you'd badly overload your roads with having to add garbage trucks to the mix.
That said, being in the solid waste industry myself (I run a business that operates landfills) I'd be quite keen to add that element to my games :)

re: 1st class and 2nd class.
1st class passengers are just a subset of 2nd class passengers.  5-10% or whatever of passengers are willing to pay for the extra comfort and conveniences of 1st class but still travel on the same vehicle to the same destinations.  The game has already modelled this in, it just isn't split out and apparent.  When you fill your Airbus with 250 passengers, 25 or whatever of those are already 1st class.  When you receive $x for your passengers for the flight, it's really $y for 2nd class + $z for 1st class = $x for the plane load of passengers.  To keep the same financial balance that the game/pakset has now, you'd lower the fare for 2nd class a bit and increase the 1st class fare... and you'd still receive the same revenue as you do now, otherwise you'd imbalance the profit/expense ratio that the paksets have created.  If you create a private business jet for your network and fill it up with regular passengers... those are really 1st class passengers (even more 1st class than 1st class!) who are willing to pay a much higher fare for the comfort of private jet travel.  And, of course, expenses are equally high per passenger... and profit/passenger isn't that much different than any other form of travel.
I think adding 1st class passengers isn't really necessary... it's mostly a cosmetic thing that doesn't offer much to the game other than adding complexity for a new player.  The comfort level in Experimental is more than sufficient in my view.

Offline sdog

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2012, 06:23:35 AM »
Quote
Isn't this already achievable with current pakset factory dynamics?  Just set waste to be an output item for any factory and voila, you've created a waste stream.

with the strange side-effect that factories could be producing waste only. Wich would also be a major exploit in paksets, as all chains could be cut short. Deliver coal and iron to your steelmill and let it produce waste you transport to the waste-incinerator that powers the coal mines. Almost like a perpetum mobile :-)

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2012, 07:42:48 AM »
Yes Fabio, I assumed you knew as would some others, I couldn't care less about having an ice cream truck in the game.  I was simply trying to point out that there are any number of new "things" you can put in the game.  IMHO, they will be interesting until the novelty wears off.

Quote
I wouldn't like additional products required in chains, as chains are already way too complex, at least in Pak 128.

It is disappointing that you and apparently the vast number of players here think there are too many chains in pak128, possibly any pak.  I think there are too few.  As usual, I'm in the minority...probably of one.

Sorry to be blunt but this example is exactly what I'm talking about of no strategic interest whatsoever:
Quote
It would make it so all you have to do is connect your system to the landfill and then BAM, you have a easy goods loop, easy.



 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:50:15 AM by Roads »

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2012, 08:40:45 AM »
I have thought of waste to waste sorter to final disposal, but I figure the only new thing needed would be the waste collection.

The sorted materials, garbage, scrap glass, scrap metal, scrap wood products and compost could be easily done with the current factory and goods code.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 09:59:10 AM »
Which pak is this factory for? I loaded it into PAK.128 and it didn't come up in the factory list.

It is for pak128, but intro year is 1990.

As for the loop in products - it makes problems when you start a new game and industry chains are generated. Such a loop will crash simutrans. But if you build such a chain by using public service, then it will work fine. I have such an experimental recycling factory for pak64 - accept (unsorted) waste, produce steel, paper, plastic and waste (for incinerator). However you can loop the residual waste from one recycling factory to another until all waste is recycled ;) See here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak64/factory.recycling_factory.pak

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2012, 10:47:17 AM »
It is disappointing that you and apparently the vast number of players here think there are too many chains in pak128, possibly any pak.  I think there are too few.  As usual, I'm in the minority...probably of one.

Well, this is a complex issue. It comes also from the fact that industrial chains are reversed. I mean, I had 10 forests for 3/4 sawmills for 2 furniture factories for 1 market. In real world, 3/4 forests would provide for 1 furniture factory which would sell too hundreds of stores. This is so annoying I almost never play freight. Also final consumers often do consume way too much: in real world you wouldn't ever see a train station serving a supermarket, just 3/4 trucks per day.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2012, 10:55:10 AM »
Fabio - you read my mind. I also hate the fact that one supermarket can consume the whole production of two breweries ;)

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2012, 11:05:13 AM »
Not forgetting a book shop uses to sell tons and tons of books a day. During the 0.8x era, I had to build a freight rail station next to the store to "feed" the enormous demand for books, so that I thought "Simutrans people love reading, a lot". I kind of try to avoid such situations.

EDIT:

OMG it's 2999th post! GET IN THE CAR!

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2012, 11:12:41 AM »
This is pakset-dependent and I believe solved decently in Pak 128 Britain with end consumers. IMHO it should apply also to intermediate products, with one or two glass factories supplying all breweries in a map, and no more than a couple of sand pits per map as well.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2012, 11:24:50 AM »
While my pak64 set up may spawn lots of producers for an end consumer, there will later on appear other consumers that reuse the same producers. However, I think I have increased the maximum distance between connected factories. The default value might make it too unlikely for the existing producers to be within range of the new consumer.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2012, 11:30:27 AM »
Quote
I mean, I had 10 forests for 3/4 sawmills for 2 furniture factories for 1 market. In real world, 3/4 forests would provide for 1 furniture factory which would sell too hundreds of stores. This is so annoying I almost never play freight. Also final consumers often do consume way too much: in real world you wouldn't ever see a train station serving a supermarket, just 3/4 trucks per day.


Yes Fabio, I find this annoying as well.  But I see this as a separate issue from having a situation where goods are simply picked up and delivered to a destination.  If that is all there is to transporting any particular freight, what makes it any different from transporting passengers or mail?  Well, there is one difference - the type vehicle needed.

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2012, 11:48:25 AM »
Actually pax and mail networks are IMHO the most complex in game, as you need to link every street in every town all over the map, with several but not too many transfers.

Freight, on the other hand, is duller, because all factories in a chain are quite near, but also scattered so that you can't (or can but only partly) reuse existing infrastructure.

Garbage as I suggested would exactly be something in between, collected as pax but delivered as freight.

Also the fourth category (delivery) would be something in between, collected as freight but delivered as pax (newspapers, milk, pizza, Chinese food, ice cream carts with bell ;))

These new two categories would require transportation logics in between pax/mail and freight, opening whole new possibilities.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2012, 12:49:12 PM »
If you tried to memorize all the items in a supermarket, you could call that job complex.  If you only had to memorize the items on a section of any particular shelf, then the job would be fairly easy.  However, it is the same process, it is just a quantity difference.

That is how I see passenger travel.  You simply have to have station coverage of every street of every city on the map.  If you miss a station somewhere it is no big deal, you will just have a few less passengers to transport.  Maybe I'm missing something about passenger travel...could be but this is all I see.

Freight chains involve a different thought process where one thing has to be happen before another can happen.  In the case of concrete and maybe some others, more than one thing has to happen before an end product can result so there are multiple ideas to keep in mind.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2012, 05:56:52 PM »
Mail and passenger networks get extremely complex in later games while goods deliveries, once set up, are static.  Mail and passengers need a lot of strategic planning for future expansion as the network's use expands exponentially with linear population growth.

re: goods.  I completely agree.  Urban goods consumers shouldn't devour the production of several factories, it should be the other way around.  This is entirely a pakset decision and I was actually going to bring up this conversation for pak128 with the creation of more 1-2 tile urban retail "factories".  A factory chain should be able to supply multiple end retailers (inverting the production triangle to weight on the retail end rather than the raw material end, ie: 1 bulk goods ==> 1-2 factories ==> 8 retailers).  I have run in to the same odd situation of having to have direct train freight delivery to urban retailers just to supply them enough product.  A few trucks should be able to provide all of its goods requirements.

re: garbage and the circular production loop.  Recycling from waste shouldn't be a 1:1 ratio... so you wouldn't be able to feed a chain on waste alone as it would quickly produce diminishing results.  Again, this is a pakset discussion... the infinite loop game crash potential may limit its ability to be implemented.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »
A consumer could consume from several producers, but there should (over time) be more consumers per producer than producers per consumer.

Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2012, 06:14:22 PM »
That statement should read in reality. The decision that city consumer can be fed by more than one producer was somewhat guided by the idea that massive freight stations are hard to set up in a city. Thus rather erring on the side of few consumers.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2012, 05:55:32 PM »
@Vladki  Thank you for posting your recycle facility, it is great and should be used. Question for if I may--How do you show the receipt of recycled glas (or other items) at the glas mill in your dat fils? Glas mill consumes glas and produces glas, is there no conflict? Also how do used recycled glas to reduce quanity of sand required? I am trying to work this into my game. Thank you

Offline colonyan

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2012, 06:21:40 PM »
1st and 2nd class passenger would be interesting to have.
Except that some portion of 1st class passenger shouldn't mind riding 2nd class cars if 1st class cars are not available.
Also small portion of 2nd class passenger wouldn't mind riding 1st class car if train is at its full capacity.

I think treating them as 3rd network would make game too redundant.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2012, 06:11:46 PM »
grampybear: this recycling factory is producing glass that is equivalent to glass produced by glass mill. So you can connect directly with brewery or dairy. They will just receive bottles from recycled glass ;). Same applies to steel, plastic and paper.

The thing about delivering recycled glass to glass mil, and thus reducing sand consumption is just my wish, not reality.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2012, 07:45:51 PM »
First my apologies to hitardo. I am responsible for taking this thread totally off topic.  Sorry.
Perhaps a "mod" could somehow split this off so that the dicussion of waste and recycle could continue. Thank you

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2012, 08:45:02 PM »
With some posts responding to all the different aspects of this discussion, I imagine splitting will be difficult. However, discussion changing focus like this isn't uncommon.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2012, 08:56:39 PM »
grampybear, you do not need to apologize.
My wish is to improve Simutrans, and that is what we are doing right here :)
Garbage chain is a very real and a great add to the game.

colonyan, I like your idea.
That "system" is my dream. I just did not express it, because is very complicated to understand it, especially for new players.
But that is almost the real world.