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Author Topic: 1st and 2nd Class passengers  (Read 11026 times)

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Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 06:15:50 PM »
It wouldn't have to be each door, just each bus stop (or ad hoc garbage collection point with station coverage), pretty much like it happens with mail. Destination would be land fill (final consumer), incinerator (producing power), or recycle plant (producing glass, plastics, paper and maybe some metals). Each garbage "bag" would have a destination, but routing should ensure it's the closest plant of one of those 3 types.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 08:14:28 PM »
Yes, collecting garbage from bus stops with garbage extension, or special garbage stops, would be fine. Recycling factory is already prepared. However it would be nice to have two kinds of garbage - unsorted garbage as special cargo with special vehicles, and "waste for incinerator" as bulk cargo, so that we can have waste chain like this: buildings -> recycling factory -> incinerator/landfill


Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 08:25:01 PM »
To extend the waste chain, current factories should be required to use a % of recycled material to produce new material, that is; paper mill would need to also consume % of recycled paper from recycle center. This could easily be done for paper, plastic, steel and glas by adding new requirement to dat file, this also would not effect save games as it would apply to new factories built. Pickup points for the "special garbage" could also be added to current factories as a production item. We all ready have a factory "garbage dump" which is self generating just need to change output into two cat, "special garbage" and "waste"

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2012, 09:01:09 PM »
Well, now I have a recycling factory that does miracles :) it produces paper, glass, plastic a steel of the same quality as new. But I would like to see the recycling in different way - optional input materials. For example paper mill will accept wood and old paper. If only wood would be supplied, then it will produce paper in the same way as it does now. But if some old paper would be supplied, then the need for wood would decrease. But it should not be possible to make new paper entirely from old. Similarly supplying steel scrap would reduce the consumption of iron ore in steel mill, etc.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 09:16:43 PM »
Yes, I agree. You expressed it much better than I did. Recycle center is just a sorting plant and any use of recycled material must be met with a reduction in consumion of raw material by the original production plant however it does compound the changes needed to allow factory the option of using or not using recycled material to make finished products.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2012, 09:20:29 PM »
Wait a minute. Wasn't this discussion about 1st class passengers, not garbage?  ???  Suggest one feature, and a dozen other feature requests cling onto it.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2012, 09:44:24 PM »
I want an ice cream truck!   ...with a bell!

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2012, 10:56:54 PM »
It all spawned by my idea of more flexible goods categories, which would allow pax-like and mail-like new goods (like 1st class pax, or garbage).

About garbage.
I wouldn't like additional products required in chains, as chains are already way too complex, at least in Pak 128.
I rather see recycled products as a replacement of normal goods, so that e.g. you can have a map with factories using glass without needing a glass chain, and so on.

Offline treiskin

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 12:59:29 AM »
I believe in Fabio's idea. We should definitely have a recycling plant. It would let the player not have to build a railroad/road/canal/airport/tram all the way to that factory and the ones connected to it. It would make it so all you have to do is connect your system to the landfill and then BAM, you have a easy goods loop, easy.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2012, 01:17:01 AM »
Try this: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128/factory.recycling_factory_111.pak

Maybe someone can help me balancing it a little. Simutrans tends to use it too much, making several of them to produce glass for one brewery, but not creating any glass mill...

Offline treiskin

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2012, 01:42:18 AM »
Which pak is this factory for? I loaded it into PAK.128 and it didn't come up in the factory list.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2012, 05:30:32 AM »
re: garbage.
Isn't this already achievable with current pakset factory dynamics?  Just set waste to be an output item for any factory and voila, you've created a waste stream.  Create recycling depots that are urban and have a set percentage of waste received turned back in to end products... steel, goods, etc.  Of course, this creates a bit of a circular loop/recursive situation where an end factory feeds goods back in to itself via the recycling depot... not sure how Simutrans would handle this or whether it would care.  Might be better to handle that as waste being an end delivery factory (landfill) and leave it at that.
Setting all buildings or commercial buildings to produce garbage probably isn't a good idea... as mentioned, mail is already onerous enough if you choose to fully service a city.  With a limitation of 1 road vehicle per tile, you'd badly overload your roads with having to add garbage trucks to the mix.
That said, being in the solid waste industry myself (I run a business that operates landfills) I'd be quite keen to add that element to my games :)

re: 1st class and 2nd class.
1st class passengers are just a subset of 2nd class passengers.  5-10% or whatever of passengers are willing to pay for the extra comfort and conveniences of 1st class but still travel on the same vehicle to the same destinations.  The game has already modelled this in, it just isn't split out and apparent.  When you fill your Airbus with 250 passengers, 25 or whatever of those are already 1st class.  When you receive $x for your passengers for the flight, it's really $y for 2nd class + $z for 1st class = $x for the plane load of passengers.  To keep the same financial balance that the game/pakset has now, you'd lower the fare for 2nd class a bit and increase the 1st class fare... and you'd still receive the same revenue as you do now, otherwise you'd imbalance the profit/expense ratio that the paksets have created.  If you create a private business jet for your network and fill it up with regular passengers... those are really 1st class passengers (even more 1st class than 1st class!) who are willing to pay a much higher fare for the comfort of private jet travel.  And, of course, expenses are equally high per passenger... and profit/passenger isn't that much different than any other form of travel.
I think adding 1st class passengers isn't really necessary... it's mostly a cosmetic thing that doesn't offer much to the game other than adding complexity for a new player.  The comfort level in Experimental is more than sufficient in my view.

Offline sdog

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2012, 06:23:35 AM »
Quote
Isn't this already achievable with current pakset factory dynamics?  Just set waste to be an output item for any factory and voila, you've created a waste stream.

with the strange side-effect that factories could be producing waste only. Wich would also be a major exploit in paksets, as all chains could be cut short. Deliver coal and iron to your steelmill and let it produce waste you transport to the waste-incinerator that powers the coal mines. Almost like a perpetum mobile :-)

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2012, 07:42:48 AM »
Yes Fabio, I assumed you knew as would some others, I couldn't care less about having an ice cream truck in the game.  I was simply trying to point out that there are any number of new "things" you can put in the game.  IMHO, they will be interesting until the novelty wears off.

Quote
I wouldn't like additional products required in chains, as chains are already way too complex, at least in Pak 128.

It is disappointing that you and apparently the vast number of players here think there are too many chains in pak128, possibly any pak.  I think there are too few.  As usual, I'm in the minority...probably of one.

Sorry to be blunt but this example is exactly what I'm talking about of no strategic interest whatsoever:
Quote
It would make it so all you have to do is connect your system to the landfill and then BAM, you have a easy goods loop, easy.



 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:50:15 AM by Roads »

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2012, 08:40:45 AM »
I have thought of waste to waste sorter to final disposal, but I figure the only new thing needed would be the waste collection.

The sorted materials, garbage, scrap glass, scrap metal, scrap wood products and compost could be easily done with the current factory and goods code.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 09:59:10 AM »
Which pak is this factory for? I loaded it into PAK.128 and it didn't come up in the factory list.

It is for pak128, but intro year is 1990.

As for the loop in products - it makes problems when you start a new game and industry chains are generated. Such a loop will crash simutrans. But if you build such a chain by using public service, then it will work fine. I have such an experimental recycling factory for pak64 - accept (unsorted) waste, produce steel, paper, plastic and waste (for incinerator). However you can loop the residual waste from one recycling factory to another until all waste is recycled ;) See here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak64/factory.recycling_factory.pak

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2012, 10:47:17 AM »
It is disappointing that you and apparently the vast number of players here think there are too many chains in pak128, possibly any pak.  I think there are too few.  As usual, I'm in the minority...probably of one.

Well, this is a complex issue. It comes also from the fact that industrial chains are reversed. I mean, I had 10 forests for 3/4 sawmills for 2 furniture factories for 1 market. In real world, 3/4 forests would provide for 1 furniture factory which would sell too hundreds of stores. This is so annoying I almost never play freight. Also final consumers often do consume way too much: in real world you wouldn't ever see a train station serving a supermarket, just 3/4 trucks per day.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2012, 10:55:10 AM »
Fabio - you read my mind. I also hate the fact that one supermarket can consume the whole production of two breweries ;)

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2012, 11:05:13 AM »
Not forgetting a book shop uses to sell tons and tons of books a day. During the 0.8x era, I had to build a freight rail station next to the store to "feed" the enormous demand for books, so that I thought "Simutrans people love reading, a lot". I kind of try to avoid such situations.

EDIT:

OMG it's 2999th post! GET IN THE CAR!

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2012, 11:12:41 AM »
This is pakset-dependent and I believe solved decently in Pak 128 Britain with end consumers. IMHO it should apply also to intermediate products, with one or two glass factories supplying all breweries in a map, and no more than a couple of sand pits per map as well.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2012, 11:24:50 AM »
While my pak64 set up may spawn lots of producers for an end consumer, there will later on appear other consumers that reuse the same producers. However, I think I have increased the maximum distance between connected factories. The default value might make it too unlikely for the existing producers to be within range of the new consumer.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2012, 11:30:27 AM »
Quote
I mean, I had 10 forests for 3/4 sawmills for 2 furniture factories for 1 market. In real world, 3/4 forests would provide for 1 furniture factory which would sell too hundreds of stores. This is so annoying I almost never play freight. Also final consumers often do consume way too much: in real world you wouldn't ever see a train station serving a supermarket, just 3/4 trucks per day.


Yes Fabio, I find this annoying as well.  But I see this as a separate issue from having a situation where goods are simply picked up and delivered to a destination.  If that is all there is to transporting any particular freight, what makes it any different from transporting passengers or mail?  Well, there is one difference - the type vehicle needed.

Offline Fabio

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2012, 11:48:25 AM »
Actually pax and mail networks are IMHO the most complex in game, as you need to link every street in every town all over the map, with several but not too many transfers.

Freight, on the other hand, is duller, because all factories in a chain are quite near, but also scattered so that you can't (or can but only partly) reuse existing infrastructure.

Garbage as I suggested would exactly be something in between, collected as pax but delivered as freight.

Also the fourth category (delivery) would be something in between, collected as freight but delivered as pax (newspapers, milk, pizza, Chinese food, ice cream carts with bell ;))

These new two categories would require transportation logics in between pax/mail and freight, opening whole new possibilities.

Offline Roads

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2012, 12:49:12 PM »
If you tried to memorize all the items in a supermarket, you could call that job complex.  If you only had to memorize the items on a section of any particular shelf, then the job would be fairly easy.  However, it is the same process, it is just a quantity difference.

That is how I see passenger travel.  You simply have to have station coverage of every street of every city on the map.  If you miss a station somewhere it is no big deal, you will just have a few less passengers to transport.  Maybe I'm missing something about passenger travel...could be but this is all I see.

Freight chains involve a different thought process where one thing has to be happen before another can happen.  In the case of concrete and maybe some others, more than one thing has to happen before an end product can result so there are multiple ideas to keep in mind.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2012, 05:56:52 PM »
Mail and passenger networks get extremely complex in later games while goods deliveries, once set up, are static.  Mail and passengers need a lot of strategic planning for future expansion as the network's use expands exponentially with linear population growth.

re: goods.  I completely agree.  Urban goods consumers shouldn't devour the production of several factories, it should be the other way around.  This is entirely a pakset decision and I was actually going to bring up this conversation for pak128 with the creation of more 1-2 tile urban retail "factories".  A factory chain should be able to supply multiple end retailers (inverting the production triangle to weight on the retail end rather than the raw material end, ie: 1 bulk goods ==> 1-2 factories ==> 8 retailers).  I have run in to the same odd situation of having to have direct train freight delivery to urban retailers just to supply them enough product.  A few trucks should be able to provide all of its goods requirements.

re: garbage and the circular production loop.  Recycling from waste shouldn't be a 1:1 ratio... so you wouldn't be able to feed a chain on waste alone as it would quickly produce diminishing results.  Again, this is a pakset discussion... the infinite loop game crash potential may limit its ability to be implemented.

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »
A consumer could consume from several producers, but there should (over time) be more consumers per producer than producers per consumer.

Offline prissi

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2012, 06:14:22 PM »
That statement should read in reality. The decision that city consumer can be fed by more than one producer was somewhat guided by the idea that massive freight stations are hard to set up in a city. Thus rather erring on the side of few consumers.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2012, 05:55:32 PM »
@Vladki  Thank you for posting your recycle facility, it is great and should be used. Question for if I may--How do you show the receipt of recycled glas (or other items) at the glas mill in your dat fils? Glas mill consumes glas and produces glas, is there no conflict? Also how do used recycled glas to reduce quanity of sand required? I am trying to work this into my game. Thank you

Offline colonyan

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2012, 06:21:40 PM »
1st and 2nd class passenger would be interesting to have.
Except that some portion of 1st class passenger shouldn't mind riding 2nd class cars if 1st class cars are not available.
Also small portion of 2nd class passenger wouldn't mind riding 1st class car if train is at its full capacity.

I think treating them as 3rd network would make game too redundant.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2012, 06:11:46 PM »
grampybear: this recycling factory is producing glass that is equivalent to glass produced by glass mill. So you can connect directly with brewery or dairy. They will just receive bottles from recycled glass ;). Same applies to steel, plastic and paper.

The thing about delivering recycled glass to glass mil, and thus reducing sand consumption is just my wish, not reality.

Offline grampybear

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2012, 07:45:51 PM »
First my apologies to hitardo. I am responsible for taking this thread totally off topic.  Sorry.
Perhaps a "mod" could somehow split this off so that the dicussion of waste and recycle could continue. Thank you

Offline Ters

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2012, 08:45:02 PM »
With some posts responding to all the different aspects of this discussion, I imagine splitting will be difficult. However, discussion changing focus like this isn't uncommon.

Offline Hitardo

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Re: 1st and 2nd Class passengers
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2012, 08:56:39 PM »
grampybear, you do not need to apologize.
My wish is to improve Simutrans, and that is what we are doing right here :)
Garbage chain is a very real and a great add to the game.

colonyan, I like your idea.
That "system" is my dream. I just did not express it, because is very complicated to understand it, especially for new players.
But that is almost the real world.