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bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.0

Started by jamespetts, November 20, 2012, 02:30:23 AM

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AP

The problem is when it leaves a stop unconnected, and I'm not sure how to resolve that. Example - look at a historic save of Clacingford just before SEC was liquidated e.g. 1831 - two rail routes had been cut through the town, but the southern of the two cut off a key road which the northern had left a level crossing on- thus  isolating a bus stop by the southern dock. There was a visible river crossing giving access to that stop only from a totally different direction, but it was also owned by green and so (rightly) not available to other players including SEC.

Removing city roads is fine, there's usually a lot of redundancy. When I'm building, I ususally check the road tile I'm going to remove, if only 2 or 3 convoys passed last month, it's just citycars, but if it's higher then it's usually a player route (maybe a coded solution - no demolishing roads with > 20 vehicles passing?). Removing a player-used cityroad, if there's a parallel one 2 tiles over, is usually fine too (unless it introduces lots of reversing into a previously straight route), but I suspect it'sjust player commonsense required.

It's when it's the last route or last direct route to a given area it becomes a problem, and can make a short line much longer or cut a key route in half.

jamespetts

One could also greatly increase the cost of removing city roads - make the cost equivalent, example, to removing a level 0 city building. That would provide some disincentive to the removal of city roads.

The more general problem could be addressed by having a list of server rules including something akin to the following:

"Players must not remove unowned roadways where to do so would disconnect a road route used by another player, or make that route much longer than it already is".

Would that cover it, do you think?
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asaphxiix

silly me, came back so tired from night shift, forgot to change the executables :P

about rules and moderation - I've mentioned before this thread http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7764.0 as a good basis for discussing those. However I think a major issue is that it requires much active involvement from the public player, which is something we can't possibly ask from you James :) But even if not, we could still benefit from a set of general rules even to serve as basis for conflict resolution - there will always be conflicts. Also we should be careful not to take out all the fun :)

ӔO

Quote from: AP on December 22, 2012, 12:41:33 PM
The problem is when it leaves a stop unconnected, and I'm not sure how to resolve that. Example - look at a historic save of Clacingford just before SEC was liquidated e.g. 1831 - two rail routes had been cut through the town, but the southern of the two cut off a key road which the northern had left a level crossing on- thus  isolating a bus stop by the southern dock. There was a visible river crossing giving access to that stop only from a totally different direction, but it was also owned by green and so (rightly) not available to other players including SEC.

Removing city roads is fine, there's usually a lot of redundancy. When I'm building, I ususally check the road tile I'm going to remove, if only 2 or 3 convoys passed last month, it's just citycars, but if it's higher then it's usually a player route (maybe a coded solution - no demolishing roads with > 20 vehicles passing?). Removing a player-used cityroad, if there's a parallel one 2 tiles over, is usually fine too (unless it introduces lots of reversing into a previously straight route), but I suspect it'sjust player commonsense required.

It's when it's the last route or last direct route to a given area it becomes a problem, and can make a short line much longer or cut a key route in half.

Yes, but I was already serving caringford and you cut through with your line. I had to work around it and many of your lines, even closing some, because it kept jamming and caused many refunds to my lines.

There was also no room at the city walls side, because your stop was blocking one of the only two tiles for a railway on that side.

Building north of the city walls would have been impossible again, as there was no room to route at all.


There's only so much manoeuvring one can do.  8)
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jamespetts

Please see here for a discussion of possible server rules.

Asaph - glad that you are able to connect after all!
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asaphxiix

yep, it's working pretty well too! though this could be also because we are down to 7000 convoys :)

jamespetts

I suspect that the lack of desyncs is caused by a fix that I brought over from Standard.
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asaphxiix

yep - that certainly worked. I still have some desyncs every now and then, but it doesn't reduce the experience really. The big change however is in loading time - about one minute to join the server I think, as opposed to 4-5 before! And also response times are very good, hardly any lags.

jamespetts

Quote from: asaphxiix on December 22, 2012, 10:06:47 PM
yep - that certainly worked. I still have some desyncs every now and then, but it doesn't reduce the experience really. The big change however is in loading time - about one minute to join the server I think, as opposed to 4-5 before! And also response times are very good, hardly any lags.

Ahh, this is caused by switching from bzip to gzip, following a recommendation made by TurfIt (or was it Ters...?) after he carried out some extensive studies as to which was the faster.
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wlindley

Having run out of money on an incompletely executed expansion, I sure wish I could apply for a loan, even at a high interest rate, so I could get back to profitability... Where's the bank when  you need one?

jamespetts

Quote from: wlindley on December 23, 2012, 12:16:47 PM
Having run out of money on an incompletely executed expansion, I sure wish I could apply for a loan, even at a high interest rate, so I could get back to profitability... Where's the bank when  you need one?

This feature is planned, as a matter of fact, although there is quite a long list of planned features...
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rsdworker

great - i played it but i found small bug relating with interface (nothing do with server issues this time - i had once lost connection

asaphxiix

server crashed and doesn't seem to be coming back up. I was releasing some vehicles that were stuck on a single tile (this happens sometimes with road vehicles).

jamespetts

Thank you for the report. This one is a little difficult to fix, I am afraid at present, because I am currently staying with my parents and do not have easy access to any C++ development environment that is properly configured.

The difficulty appears to be that the game crashes on attempting to load the saved game, which is here. Can anyone else confirm that the game will crash with a Simutrans error message about a string being too long when loading? This error usually suggests a corrupted saved game - an error which is extremely difficult to trace and fix.

The best thing to do would, I think, be to find anybody's most recent saved game and re-upload that to the server, which might take us back a day or two, but is better than nothing. I have a fairly recent one at home from a day or two ago, I think, but I do not have access to it here, and will be staying with my parents for a week or two. Does anyone have a recent local save? I am afraid that my backup rotation on the server does not appear to be working properly.

May I ask in the meantime, Asaph - what were you doing to release these road vehicles, and what sort of crash did you get? Was anyone joining at the time?
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wlindley

I was playing when the server went down.  I got the Saving Game... dialog and then it crashed on re-load.

jamespetts

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jamespetts

W. Lindley has helpfully supplied a game that he saved a couple of days ago, with an in-game date of January 1837. The latest in-game date on the server before it went down was March 1840.

What are people's views on whether to upload this one and restart things? Does anyone have any later saves?
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wlindley

Or we could start over... being sure that walkable connections are on, and this time with much more industry? 

jamespetts

I'd hate to destroy everyone's work; in any case, it's very useful for me to see how things play out in all eras, since if we keep starting again, we may never get to the later eras, and never have any idea of how well that the game works in those later eras. People might also have got bored of stagecoaches by now and need a railway related break...
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rsdworker

Quote from: jamespetts on December 24, 2012, 05:02:55 PM
I'd hate to destroy everyone's work; in any case, it's very useful for me to see how things play out in all eras, since if we keep starting again, we may never get to the later eras, and never have any idea of how well that the game works in those later eras. People might also have got bored of stagecoaches by now and need a railway related break...

sounds good idea because clean start could make more better because i had problems on server

ӔO

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asaphxiix

Hi everybody, Merry Christmas!!

I'm sorry for no response, I'm away today and did not have remote access to my computer.

I did not get a save message before the crash, and the save I have is from March 1840, which is amazing luck, because I was playing for many many hours in the last days, starting to get out of the red. here is the save: http://upchi.co.il/fjvf0ql3mtm9

personally I like bridgewater a lot, but I'm cool with a new game as well (maybe start at 1840), even both.

jamespetts

Quote from: asaphxiix on December 24, 2012, 07:46:39 PM
Hi everybody, Merry Christmas!!

I'm sorry for no response, I'm away today and did not have remote access to my computer.

I did not get a save message before the crash, and the save I have is from March 1840, which is amazing luck, because I was playing for many many hours in the last days, starting to get out of the red. here is the save: http://upchi.co.il/fjvf0ql3mtm9

personally I like bridgewater a lot, but I'm cool with a new game as well (maybe start at 1840), even both.

Thank you very much for that - now back online with your very lucky save! It's best to play this one out before starting again, I think.

I shall have to look into my backup rotation when I have time, as that does not appear to be working properly at present.
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asaphxiix

I added some mail trains on my busy pax lines (Aylston to Warton), with very low service. Now as waiting numbers of mail rise to thousands, I'm starting to get refunds on my pax lines, although stations are not crowded (with pax) at all and waiting times are low to all destinations. Could be an issue?

asaphxiix

dear lindley, please consult before creating a connection - this would have been welcome, but a connection between aeolus and me at this point will be the demise of all of us.

ӔO

I'm surprised I'm still alive.

How much money do I have right now?
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asaphxiix

somehow you still have 19M$, but you lose 1M each year. I wouldn't give up - my efforts have being paying off, and trains I think are profitable, at least at a relatively small scale.

asaphxiix

Since joining takes less than one minute now, perhaps autosave should be turned on, say every 60 minutes? Just lost 3 or 4 hours of play when ordering a replacing of 156 vehicles :/

greenling

Hello jamespetts gives a possible free slot how i can view on the game?
Opening hours 20:00 - 23:00
(In Night from friday on saturday and saturday on sunday it possibly that i be keep longer in Forum.)
I am The Assistant from Pakfilearcheologist!
Working on a big Problem!

jamespetts

Asaph,

it is not just a matter of turning autosave on - I have to write a shell script to send the nettool force-sync command at regular intervals, which is not a trivial task, especially if the script needs to check whether the server has in fact saved a game in the last five minutes or so. I shall have to look into that at the same time as fixing my backup rotation script.

Incidentally, what was the nature of your crash? Was there an error message? Are you able to reproduce it in a saved offline version so that I can look into the cause?

Greenling,

this listing should tell you whether there are currently any unlocked players - there appear to be 2 at present. Even if there are no unlocked players, however, you can always join the game as an observer.
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greenling

OK Jamespetts thank you for this info.
On the 6 January at 21:00 clock will i look as quest in the game there have i then my own Internet cable.
Before only quest of another internet cable.
Opening hours 20:00 - 23:00
(In Night from friday on saturday and saturday on sunday it possibly that i be keep longer in Forum.)
I am The Assistant from Pakfilearcheologist!
Working on a big Problem!

wlindley

The game is progressing well...

Here are the upcoming rail, tram, road, and ship introductions starting "now" (1844) within the next 10 years:

Availability--- -Power- -Type-    ---Name-------------------   -Wght- Capy -Speed-
1845.03-1883.02          road     OmnibusDoubleKnifeboard          4T  24u  18km/h
1845.04-1851.05 steam    train    LNWR-crewe-type                 18T  --   90km/h
1845.04-1862.06 steam    train    LNWR-Bloomer-Tender             15T  --  110km/h
1845.05-1849.10 steam    train    SDR-Derwent-Tender               1T  --   40km/h
1845.05-1849.10 steam    train    SDR-Derwent                     22T  --   45km/h
1845.05-1850.11          train    LBSCR-4wheel-open-sided-brake    3T  38u  80km/h
1845.05-1850.11          train    LBSCR-4wheel-open-sided          3T  40u  80km/h
1847.06-1858.04 steam    train    JennyLind                       25T  --   95km/h
1847.06-1858.04 steam    train    JennyLind-Tender                15T  --   95km/h
1848.02-1852.08 steam    train    MR-130-tender                   14T  --   95km/h
1848.02-1852.08 steam    train    MR-130                          27T  --   95km/h
1849.10-1866.03 steam    train    LNWR-Sharp-goods                26T  --   50km/h
1850.11-1855.01          train    LBSCR-4wh-par-sec                4T  32u  80km/h
1850.11-1855.01          train    LBSCR-4wh-par-thi-bra            4T  38u  80km/h
1850.11-1855.01          train    LBSCR-4wh-par-thi                5T  40u  80km/h
1851.05-1862.06 steam    train    LNWR-Bloomer                    30T  --  110km/h
1852.01-1945.12 sail     ship     Fifie                           15T  15u  15km/h
1852.02-1918.01 bio      tram     Tram-Horses                      1T  --   18km/h
1852.02-1895.10          tram     1-Deck-Trailer                   3T  20u  30km/h
1852.08-1859.04 steam    train    MR-133                          28T  --  100km/h
1852.08-1859.04 steam    train    MR-133-tender                   14T  --  100km/h
1852.09-1875.07 steam    train    SDR-1001-Tender(Green)          16T  --   50km/h
1852.09-1875.07 steam    train    SDR-1001(Green)                 32T  --   50km/h
1853.09-1859.10          train    4-wheel-1850s-tpo                4T  24u 100km/h
1853.09-1859.10          train    4-wheel-1850s-brake              4T  20u 100km/h
1853.09-1859.10          train    4-wheel-1850s                    6T  24u 100km/h
1853.09-1859.10          train    4-wheel-1850s-mail               6T  30u 100km/h




asaphxiix

nice!!!
Jenny Lind should make rail transportation easier to handle...




crash and revert - not sure what I did exactly, something about a button in the replacing window of a vehicle that was in a replacing process.

lost half an hour this time. I've instated a half-hourly alarm to rejoin for saving, the crash happened five minutes before it was to go on.




Also, it may be a good time to release passwords of some of the inactive players, especially those with no infrastructure. Right now Tortoise wishes to restart, but all slots are currently taken.


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