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bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.0

Started by jamespetts, November 20, 2012, 02:30:23 AM

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jamespetts

May I check - which companies do people here think are dud/unused at present that might need unlocking? Sadly, there is no option to liquidate at present (this could be considered), but I can at least unlock dud players. Bear in mind that some players might be temporarily absent for the holiday season.
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asaphxiix

Player 13 and Newbie Ltd have no infrastructure.
If more slots are needed, then German Trains has stops, but no convoys ever ran. Cob & Co, IPA have very small turnover.

All these companies have not been played for decades now.

ӔO

I wonder if there needs to be some code to detect and prevent loopbacks of pax.
I picked up passengers from hatingford and dropped them off at nutingham, who then immediately wanted to go back to hatingford.

This is not a short ride, nor is it cheap to operate this sea line.
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asaphxiix

they do that when they have no better way to get to their destination. They still don't know this way is worse - until it starts registering higher waiting times.

Not easy, having a fast and decentralized network with no bottlenecks at all is the only way to counter this I think.

jamespetts

I don't think that there is any sensible way of detecting this; I am extremely reluctant to interfere with the passenger routing code, as it was optimised by Knightly, and would not perform acceptably if it was not optimised in this way.
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ӔO

^ okay, I guess there's not much that could be done about that except improve player skill.
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jamespetts

I hope that a more realistic number of passengers will reduce the tendency for this to occur, although I should note that a more realistic number of passengers will end up producing large numbers of passengers for local journeys in large towns in the later game.
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asaphxiix

I think the routing code is great! Having much fun, even though its just a bit too hard.

jamespetts

Hmm - it seems that I can't unlock players after all: the previous unlocking feature was removed from Standard before and the current unlocking feature added to Standard after the version of Standard on which the current version of Experimental is based was released. The RC should have a feature to allow the unlocking of players based on nettool.
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dustNbone

Yes, it seems the game is rather full up now, which is too bad for me as I've finally got some time to play.  Anyway, it seems like tortoise transport is not going to be long for this world, and that will open up at least one slot.  The rest look to be either be solvent, or dying very slowly.  Quite the map so far though, very interesting.  I hope to get a chance to play soon :)  Thanks for all the work that James et al have put into the game in recent months, amazing!

Dustin

jamespetts

When I get back from my Christmas holiday, I hope to alter the code so as to enable players to be reset by the public player again: see here for details, and then release a new version. Hopefully, we can clear some slots by then. In the meantime, you can observe the game and plan your moves! It would be good to have you back playing.
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asaphxiix

James, perhaps you could reset the password of a player with no infrastructure? This should be possible, and not a big disaster as a temp solution if someone gets to start with a little more money?

jamespetts

I can't, I'm afraid, as that is not possible with this version (it changed in Standard and I merged the updated version of Standard). I will update the next version with the code suggested by Dwachs, then reset the passwords of the players who have abandoned the game.

Apologies for the difficulties!
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asaphxiix

sorry james, I thought it would work because I tried to reset a red password as public player on 10.18 and it worked...

jamespetts

Quote from: asaphxiix on December 29, 2012, 11:55:21 PM
sorry james, I thought it would work because I tried to reset a red password as public player on 10.18 and it worked...

Hmm - how did you do it? Was this on a running server?
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asaphxiix

ah, no, that was on single player, I guess this is a multiplayer issue.

jamespetts

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AP

Quote from: ӔO on December 24, 2012, 05:37:39 PM
I wouldn't mind a clean start.

Merry christmas all.

I'd like to play with a clean start too. However, is there any chance of the balancing being adjusted prior to that? And perhaps the game time-settings slowed further (as discussed elsewhere), so it doesn't demand quite so much attentativeness?

jamespetts

Quote from: AP on December 30, 2012, 09:36:52 AM
Merry christmas all.

I'd like to play with a clean start too. However, is there any chance of the balancing being adjusted prior to that? And perhaps the game time-settings slowed further (as discussed elsewhere), so it doesn't demand quite so much attentativeness?

And a merry Christmas to you, too! The balancing is currently undergoing a great deal of work in many directions (although I am currently engaged in a Christmas project of adding much more detail to canals, as I don't have access to Visual Studio from my parents' house where I am staying, so cannot easily work on the code). The passenger generation will have to be calibrated, likewise the mail (that is a large task itself), the power physics for all steam and biological land vehicles needs to be adjusted/calibrated based on real figures, all the bridges need to be re-costed, the railway tracks need some reworking in cost/speed/weight limits, the congestion density factor needs to be recalibrated and the industry boost (etc.) needs to be set up. Once that is done, I can release the next version of the pakset and start work on the coding projects that should lead to being able to balance the game properly (variable vehicle maintenance costs based on usage, way maintenance costs based on usage, vehicle overhauls, etc.). I also need to work with Bernd to fix the bugs in the RC to merge to a much later version of Standard (to enable such things as clicking and dragging of tunnels/elevated ways in online games, better online game joining dialogues, saving of block reservations to avoid trains getting stuck on save/reload) as well as a few smaller coding projects linked to canal realism, and, of course, fix all the identified bugs.

As can be imagined, this will take quite a while. In the meantime, I might as well leave the server running so that we can see how things progress through different eras and what other balancing problems/bugs might yet be waiting to be discovered.

Incidentally, as to the time settings and attentiveness: it will take more than just changing the bits per month, I think. The bits per month setting is calibrated to ensure that the same amount is earned/spent over the same period of real time (which translates in Experimental to game hours) whatever the bits per month setting. The costs per game month are adjusted. In Experimental, the number of game hours per month changes. What is really needed to reduce the need for attentiveness is a more fundamental rebalancing of the relationship between capital costs and income/outgoings, which I am afraid will have to fall with the more general rebalancing described above, and will not be a quick exercise (unless somebody else is able to do it quickly - all help very welcome!)
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wlindley

It's September 1854. Back in February 1852, the Tram Horses and Single Deck Tram Trailer became available, but there are still no tram tracks to be built? The dat file says they should also be introduced in Feb. 1852 -- any idea why they are not yet available?

jamespetts

Quote from: wlindley on December 30, 2012, 12:31:16 PM
It's September 1854. Back in February 1852, the Tram Horses and Single Deck Tram Trailer became available, but there are still no tram tracks to be built? The dat file says they should also be introduced in Feb. 1852 -- any idea why they are not yet available?

The introduction of the tram track was changed from 1860 to 1852 a while ago (see here), but this was after 0.8.4 was released. This change should be incorporated into the next release of Pak128.Britain-Ex. In the meantime, trams will be available in 1860.
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asaphxiix

I wonder what the effects would be, both resource-wise and game play-wise, if recalculating waiting times were made more frequent.

I imagine pax erratic behavior on re-routing would on one hand be more sensitive to overcrowding and perhaps be even more erratic, but on the other hand, probably easier to fix, once service is ameliorated. The current situation is very hard to track and fix.

I imagine it's not much work to change it in the code, so the main resource question is probably about CPU.

jamespetts

It's probably better to think about calibrating things like this when we have the passenger generation calibrated, as the environment in which the system will be operating will be very different to the present environment, I suspect.
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AP

Quote from: jamespetts on December 30, 2012, 11:49:24 AMIncidentally, as to the time settings and attentiveness: it will take more than just changing the bits per month, I think. The bits per month setting is calibrated to ensure that the same amount is earned/spent over the same period of real time (which translates in Experimental to game hours) whatever the bits per month setting. The costs per game month are adjusted. In Experimental, the number of game hours per month changes. What is really needed to reduce the need for attentiveness is a more fundamental rebalancing of the relationship between capital costs and income/outgoings, which I am afraid will have to fall with the more general rebalancing described above, and will not be a quick exercise (unless somebody else is able to do it quickly - all help very welcome!)

Regarding the above, is it worthwhile (/possible) to consider introducing a system variable/multiplier, which can be tweaked centrally alongside bits-per-month (i.e. they work as a pair) - so that balancing of vehicles relative to each other, and then relative to time, can be done seperately and adjusted subsequently? Just a thought...

jamespetts

Something that would have this effect is already planned: see the list of coding projects for Experimental under the heading "Variation of costs and revenues over time".
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asaphxiix

server crashed when assigning a line-less convoy back to a line (manually, not by making its stops identical). Reverted a year and a half back, 4 hours I'd been playing without saving.

jamespetts

I'm sorry that you've had this trouble. Is there a way that you can reproduce this crash so that I can fix it?

Edit: I have set up a system for saving the game on the server every hour, and for producing 5 half hourly rotations of the saved game data, as well as enabling log rotation to ensure that I am better able to track what is occurring with the server and that I have a more manageable logfile from which to identify where any crashes occurred. Hopefully this will keep things in good order.

The one thing that I need to do is reconfigure my rotation shell script only to run if the latest saved game has been modified since it last run, which I am not yet sure how to do.
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asaphxiix

maybe this would be of assistance?
1. run in shell as  $ python2 compare_time.py file_with_last_time_stamp
2. in file_with_last_time_stamp must epoc seconds as integer value

(py file)

jamespetts

Thank you, but I have now managed to get a script working: see here. It should force-sync every hour if there have not been any saves in the meantime, and rotate a series of 5 backups if the save file has changed since the last rotation attempt. Hopefully, this will prevent anybody from losing more than an hour's worth of work, even if the server crashes and corrupts the saved game.
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AP

Seconded - even if I'm not playing right now, I had this issue enough times previously!!  :D

chicken

Every so often, hundreds of passengers will appear at Nestinghall Blackchapel Stop attempting to get to Manford via Nestinghall Axpool Lane Stop. Manford is a town very far away across the sea, and I'm not sure what route the passengers are using, but it must be using other players' networks. The problem is that I then look at Nestinghall Axpool Lane Stop and find that the passengers there are also trying to get to Manford, but right back around via Nestinghall Blackchapel Stop. It seems there is some kind of circular route going on.


After a while all the Manford-bound passengers suddenly disappear and the stops return back to handling a few dozen at a time.


asaphxiix

they appear there when the main line to go where they want is overloaded
they start taking weird routes when there are overloads.

jamespetts

Chicken,

this issue has been mentioned previously. It is an artefact of the routing system that calculates the route based on the least overall time, including waiting times. Odd routes have been observed in some cases where waiting times to take what would otherwise be the most obvious route become extremely high. I do not know what possible solution that there might be in principle to this issue - even in real life, if going to London from Oxford via Birmingham was faster because there was a twelve hour wait to board a train heading to London at Oxford, people would do that.

The real issue is what causes there to be such high waiting times in the first place. This seems to be caused by passengers' excessive willingness to travel at very high journey times. That issue is being looked into as part of the overall calibration of passenger generation. Hopefully, once that issue is addressed, there will be far fewer of these odd routes.

Incidentally, which company are you playing?
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chicken

I am playing Tortoise Transport. Could those excessive waiting times cause such circular routing though, A->B->A?