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Offline colonyan

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More Manipulable Industry Contract
« on: November 22, 2012, 12:29:37 AM »
Currently, contracts between industries does not define volume and time of its goods flow.
Being able to define volume and duration of its contracts will allow

1. More variable contract location. (Different customer, different supplier)
2. More variable demande/supply volume.

So when player clicks on a coal mine it will say such as

CONTRACT #Coal_1
item: coal
to: Powerstation 1
duration: Indefinite
volume: 250 unit per month

When player click on the power plant it will say such as

CONTRACT #Coal_1
item: coal
from: coalmine 1
duration: Indefinite
volume: 250 unit per month

In this case, user can expect 250 unit coal worth of transportation need(income/profit) between those two industries
forever until user decide to quit playing this map.

There are many more imaginable situations by separately defining detail of contract.
Will update
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 12:39:38 AM by colonyan »

Offline Ters

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 05:19:27 AM »
Looks like less variable demand to me, not that that's a bad thing.

Offline colonyan

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 05:41:54 AM »
I will explain little further in detail.

Series of different set of contract templates will be prepared.
Such as short term (few month to few years) but with larger volume.
Another could be long term (few years to few decades) but with small volume.
Consumer could alter supplier one from another.

Variables will be its
- choice of supplier (choosing one among A,B,C,D and E)
- length of contract (few month to few decades or indefinitely)
- volume

As game goes on, industries make one or several of these contracts among themselves.

Using previous example, to satisfy increasing demand, Power station 1 look for other source of coal.
On top of existing contract "CONTRACT #Coal_1", station decides to go for "CONTRACT #Coal_2"
which defined such as

CONTRACT #Coal_2
item: coal
from: coalmine 2
duration: 2years and 6month
volume: 120 unit per month

Thus as soon as #Coal_2 takes in effect, station will consume 250+120=370 unit of coal per month.
_________________________________________
Main goal of this approach is to have somewhat static contracts between industries but with more visible fluctuation.
Pak maker could decide what kind of contracts are allowed for which industries and such to be able to design its industry
chain.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 07:47:11 AM »
The philosophy of simutrans is that demand should remain static or rise, never fall. This means that once you have set a route up it will function forever (possibly eventually becoming unprofitable due to old vehicles). Having demand fluctuations means micromanagememt - maybe that is possible with 10 industries, but could players keep up with 1000 industries for example?

Offline colonyan

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 08:09:53 AM »
I will use few simple drawings of graphs to explain.


Putting aside whether it should grow forever or shrink should never occur, I want to see demand for goods transportation demand to be less uniform. Thus making less predictable traffic volume and more higher and lower peak time.

Obviously when number of industries extends beyond several dozens(although 1000 sounds little exaggerated.) will arrive when one plays a map long enough.

As a discussion matter, I can only say to limit the number of contract an industry can have.

ADD: As of micromanagement. I don't plan this behavior to demand more micromanagement. Most of time, train will sit idle waiting for cargo to come. It will be whether train will wait X time or 2X time depending on goods flow demand.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 08:32:29 AM by colonyan »

Offline Ters

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 04:04:13 PM »
When a contract expires, the train will be stuck waiting forever. Players will have to constantly monitor every line to see if the contract they serve still exists. The train won't wait X time or 2X time. It will wait forever, until, maybe at some random time if the future, a new similar contract is formed.

But I think there is some possibility of a misunderstanding here. Though in my games, the volume of goods to/from a factory is like the graph on the right, or even more fluctuating.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 05:35:01 PM »
Reductions in demand could cause utter chaos on a transport network, with waiting trains blocking routes for example. Input and output from industries does fluctuate a bit at the moment if you make large deliveries of goods rather than smaller more frequent deliveries but that is up to the player.

Offline colonyan

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 05:36:57 PM »
When a contract expires, ...

I see. I did not thought about once industry makes a contract with new supplier, it must keep that contract regardless of the volume.
Then all contracts must kept alive forever.
Only the volume must fluctuate.

Idea now comes back also that I wanted freight lines to become more like passenger lines.
One consist goes cities here and there in a line, visiting few freight depots exchanging various goods.

Though in my games, the volume of goods to/from a factory is like the graph on the right, or even more fluctuating.
Graph of mine is just to represent the general idea. Although, what type of game are you playing?


Offline colonyan

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 05:48:28 PM »
Reductions in demand could cause utter chaos on a transport network, with waiting trains blocking routes for example.
I think that is avoidable if a vehicle can be designated to wait in a facility until certain amount of cargo is available at next stop.



"Input and output from industries does fluctuate a bit at the moment if you make large deliveries of goods"
Is this for example supplying an end consumer exceeding its cargo capacity? Say a gasoline station can hold 200 unit and
a convoy of 550 unit arrive at once?

Need to give more thought about complex industry chain...

Please remind that this is only discussion.

Offline ӔO

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 06:09:26 PM »
I did suggest, some time ago, that consumers demand goods, rather than producers dumping goods to whomever.

Offline Ters

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 08:25:39 PM »
I did suggest, some time ago, that consumers demand goods, rather than producers dumping goods to whomever.

Producers don't dump goods to whomever, they send it to a consumer that needs it as it's stores are running low. That they don't put out a tender every now and then just means that I don't have to shuffle around on infrastructure and schedules everytime a consumer fancies another supplier. Some industries would also realistically be permanently tied together in vertical integration.

Offline ӔO

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 08:45:17 PM »
^ but if the producer can produce 1000 units, the station attached to it has capacity for 1000 units and the consumer only consumes 200 units, the producer will still deliver 1000 units to the consumer. Then the consumer is full for 5 months.

Offline Ters

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 09:23:07 PM »
Currently, the consumer just keeps putting out orders, since it's empty. It doesn't know that anthing is under way. I think that is being (or has been) fixed, though I haven't checked it out.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 09:29:58 PM »
What is the actual benefit of this?

Offline prissi

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 09:32:13 PM »
In the recent nightly you can set an amount when the producer stops to sent goods if a certain amount is under way to the consumer. However, tis amount should be at least twice the load of the largerst convoi waiting on the route, or nothing will arrive at all.

The will smooth out the production and will disable the trick of dumping stuff en-route. The downside is that continous supply for very long routes will require different settings as for small maps with direct connections.

Offline Roads

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 09:02:05 AM »
In my experience with freight it has been more like Ters and Kieron have hinted at if not said out right.  This may not be apparent if you have loading and unloading platforms and lots of trains and industries because it is simply too much to watch on an individual basis.  However if you begin a new map with 3 to 4 full industry chains, set these up so they are all extremely profitable - then micromanage - you will see some very big fluctuations over a period of time.  Once I had an industry that produced canned fish where for a period of more than a year it needed no fish at all.  What I am saying is that the amount of fish in the factory stayed the same even though canned food was being shipped out.  What actually happened was, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but say 450 fish...when a truck picked up canned food, the amount of fish would drop to say 425, then almost immediately and magically go back to 450!

So I think what you are asking for is already in the game, it is just not obvious with loading and unloading platforms and these cycles take a long time to play out.  You can't go in and play for an hour or two and expect to see the full cycle of how robust the game really is.

Offline colonyan

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2012, 03:25:58 PM »
^Interesting to hear that there are people seeing noticeable end consumer behavior. Could it be new kind of behavior I've been looking over for few years or is it added not long time ago? Not playing long time enough surely have some issue.

Offline Ters

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Re: More Manipulable Industry Contract
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 05:00:19 PM »
Only what prissi wrote is new. The rest has been that way as long as I can remember.