Started by jamespetts, December 28, 2012, 01:35:31 AM
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Quote from: jamespetts on December 28, 2012, 01:35:31 AMgoods/passengers with an 18% speed bonus rating can only receive, at maximum, + or - 18% of the total fare on account of a speed bonus or penalty)
QuoteI realize that this may require changing the pricing module to journey based, and that this is not in agreement with the current game design, but it may be worth sacrificing the pricing method a bit here for the realism of the journey time bonus. In any case, the only reason pax have to stray from the most direct route is time, so they would never choose to from London to Oxford via Birmingham, unless they have to take a horse carriage on the direct route... I think for the purpose of the game, this would be rather realistic.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 12:34:26 PMI am not sure that you are correct that the journey time does not influence prices very much: what of the example of Concorde, whose only advantage was speed, and which was able to command vastly higher ticket prices on account of it?
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 12:34:26 PMShort haul air against rail transport in Europe is probably not a good comparison, since short haul air transport faces much stiffer competition for the same routes than the train does, especially where state regulation distorts the rail market more than the air market.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 12:34:26 PMWe can test the price of higher and lower speed trains against each other in the UK, as there are some routes where the same journey can be made on different trains at different speeds at different costs. Take, for example, London to Ashford in Kent. If you put in a journey on the National Rail Enquiries website from "London" to "Ashford International", you will see different sets of journeys: some starting in London Victoria and Charing Cross, and some starting in St. Pancras International. The former cost £26.20 off peak, wheras the others cost £31.30 off peak. The former journey is about one and a half hours and the latter about 40 minutes using the new high speed rail link built for the Channel Tunnel. It really would not be realistic not to have price determined by journey speed at all, I don't think.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 12:34:26 PMI am not sure exactly what you mean. What do you imagine by a "journey time bonus"? In real life, people do not generally have through ticketing for their entire trips - the local 'bus price will not depend even slightly on how fast that one's air or train journey to the airport/main railway station in a town was. Through ticketing to the London Underground from national railway stations is the exception rather than the rule, and has only existed since the 1980s, over 30 years since the railways were first nationalised. It is far more realistic to have a price per journey leg than per end to end journey. If you meant something else, I am afraid that I am not sure what it was.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 12:34:26 PMThe real question to answer, however, is not, I think, whether to have a speed bonus, but what it should be. Concorde suggests a potentially very high difference in price, whereas the London to Ashford link suggests a lower difference; that can be accounted for by the difference in the overall journey time. It might be that simply modifying the speed bonus ratings to reach higher ratings at only very long journey times and having lower ratings overall, more realistic figures can be achieved. The question then becomes: do we need a cap on top of that, and, if so, what should it be? Does a maximum multiplier/divider of four seem sensible?
Quote from: asaphxiix on January 03, 2013, 01:24:53 PMThis is quite a complicated discussion. The concord is one example, a good one because it features the difference between the same mode and locations, with only time difference, but very extreme as well, I think. We should remember however that the Concorde was a. a very luxurious and unique product; b. tickets prices were far from constant and as airliners usually do, prices were often dropped to fill the plane. Fares alone are not the best determiner of speed factor, I think. There are so many other substantial considerations.
QuoteTrue, but it does match the game's current scale and function, pretty much. And state regulation is a part of reality, even if not simulated in the game.
QuoteIn contrast, from London to Peterborough, http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/London/PBO/240113/1215/dep, a 45 minute journey costs less than a 75 minute journey, not sure if the route is the same, but the slow route through Sandy seems pretty direct. From scouting for different tickets through the Kingdom, it really doesn't seem like the time duration (or number of changes) has any effect on the price, while timing (peak/off peak) and booking option (advance/refundable), two elements that are absent from the game, are much more prominent factors.
QuoteWhen I buy a ticket in this website above, the ticket may include changing. This, in game terms, means a journey with two (or more) trips, doesn't it? Same goes for regional bus/rail passes (for short and medium distance), and airline tickets, where I pay for a p2p journey regardless of stops in the middle, which are much more meaningful in flying, and take hours, as well as the increase in flight duration. For this (London-TLV through Frankfurt vs. direct route), the fare will be no less and no more, although of course my inclination to purchase a slow ticket for a large price may be decreased, and I'll most likely look for other, faster flights (time tolerance). This again returns to the question of whether the game is simulating fares as they are determined, or rather the economic process of revenue generation (what people actually pay). Either way, I don't think through tickets are unrealistic for the game's simulation, even with multiple modes.
QuoteI still think speed bonus is fun; but I think its effect should not be great.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 01:42:04 PMI don't think that, aside from the speed itself, Concorde was any more luxurious than first class cabins on subsonic airliners, nor does there seem to be any reason to think that prices on Concorde were dropped more regularly or to a greater extent than on other airliners. It might be an extreme example: but we actually have Concorde in the game thanks to Milko/Giuseppe, so we need to be able to have a system that accounts for that sort of extremity.
Quote On Concorde, a return flight across the Atlantic could easily cost £8,000, compared with £3,000 or so in vastly more comfortable first class on a Jumbo Jet.When Concorde returned to service in 2001 after its Paris crash, it simply failed to convince enough people to fly.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 01:42:04 PMThe difficulty with this is that we introduce arbitrary distortions if we use regulation affected data without taking into account or simulating the effect of regulation. We need in principle to compare like with like.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 01:42:04 PMThe difference between those tickets is that the cheaper ticket can be booked in advance (which is less expensive), whereas the longer route is not available for advance booking. I chose the high speed rail as a specific example of where there is direct competition between different speeds of transport. Another good example would be to compare fares on the London Midland slow trains from Euston to Birmingham with the Virgin West Coast fares on that same route. Where the comparison is between local stopping trains and long distance trains run by the same operator on the same route, the comparison of price is not a useful one, as the two trains have a different purpose, and are not really in competition: if the prices on the stopping train were reduced, some passengers for the long distance run would take the stopping train, possibly making it too crowded for the passengers who actually need to use the stopping train, so there is no reason to send a price signal in that case. In Simutrans, this does not much matter, since passengers will take the fast train in any event.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2013, 01:42:04 PMThere is a great difference between, on the one hand, changing trains on the same railway company's route and having a through ticket, and, on the other, arriving by air and being able to use one's airline ticket to catch a local 'bus. The difficulty is that it is not easy in Simutrans to draw the line between the two, and it is more realistic in any event to compute fares by journey leg than otherwise (after all, why should an airline passenger pay more or less to use the local 'bus than a local commuter?).