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Author Topic: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)  (Read 12704 times)

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Offline gauthier

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Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« on: January 19, 2013, 06:24:37 PM »
The idea is very simple, just see this thread : http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9225.0

In fact I see two solutions :
_ Adding a new type of station extension which can be built directly in a cliff (difficult since cursor can't be placed on a cliff + limited height).
_ Adding a new type of station extension whose roof can be built on (ie : roof seen as a tile by the game) -> probably easier to code, no height limit, no cursor problem. (and why not allowing several tiles high ones ?).

And some real examples to see what I am talking about :









Offline greenling

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Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 10:59:05 PM »
pak64 has such a station extension, which is a flat tile with a facade at its end. pak64.german as well.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 11:02:07 PM »
I know, but you can't build on these buildings, do you ?

Offline greenling

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 11:10:38 PM »
Hello Gauthier
I can those building out the links be build on the gamemap.
(I must quickly in the Bed. I'm ill.) ::'(

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 11:23:42 PM »
No a building is (for now) expected to be on a ground (also elevated ground counst as ground).

Offline Bear789

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 09:49:27 AM »
In my experience, you can build a bridge ove an existing station extension without the need to occupy adjacent tiles. You need to build a single tile station, use ctrl+click to add the extension building with the proper orientation, then build the bridge over it. There are usually some graphic layering glitches, but I suppose that if someone paints a bridge and an extension designed to work together like that, it can look good.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 12:16:41 PM »
I know that about bridges. However I suggest a proper and easier way to do that : the possibility of seeing the roof of a station hall as a tile which can be built on.

As you said, there are graphical glitches with current bridges tinkering. Moreover that's much more restrictive. In the example of the thread I linked in the first post, how would you do that ? You can't build a demi-bridge which stops in mid-air for example, with elevated ways you would have to build several layers of these, then destroy lower ones and finally hope to have two tiles high extensions to be built under.

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 09:27:22 PM »
Yaeh, but buildings on non-ground tiles is really something which would require changes at very many places. Rather put the facade on the tile before the bridge/elevated way works already.


Offline Ters

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 06:01:11 AM »
Bridges and elevated roads create "grounds" in the air. However, those grounds come pre-filled with a way. Some kind of building/bridge hybrid could therefore perhaps work? It's not a very elegant solution, though.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 01:15:43 PM »
Just to feed discussion :

I begin to create metro station just for elevated railway :
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=10126.msg109395#msg109395


I mean that create base on ground could improve this

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 09:17:40 PM »
I understood. But why not doing what is already possible, as in the screenshot above.

If this is a bridge/elevated way or a bridge, you can even put an extension buuilding below too. Thus I really somewhat miss the point.

Offline sdog

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 09:23:39 PM »
Extension buildings to exactly fit the arches could be done.

There might be graphics or clipping problems, but they would be an entirely differnent topic.

A different approach could be new elevated ways where the arches below are filled. To effectively do this, one would need to restrict the allowed ways and directions below an elevated way. (this is also something that might be interesting in a current discussion in pak128.britain.)

Offline VS

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 09:35:36 PM »
I think the point is that the building below can not "mask" the bridge or elevated way above it, so it always looks like elevated way on something. The fake front solution needs surrounding the station from both sides. So you can't get "everything" at once...

After thinking a bit about it, the price for using fake fronts is just destroying more city houses :)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 12:09:50 PM »
Elevated ways which fill the ground (and need it to be empty) would be very nice. There could be nice embankments to be painted ;)

Offline dennosius

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 02:43:40 PM »
How is this monorail depot programmed? When built on an elevated monorail track, a shed is automatically built below. Is that something hardcoded? If not, the same way could maybe used to build something stacked.

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 11:17:05 PM »
The shed is hardcoded, but also available as extension building. (Or was for some time at least.) A bilding below a brodge should overlay the pillar, especially, if it has its front image defined.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 01:13:53 AM »
Yes, in hausbauer.cc and possibly other places, the building name "MonorailGround" is magic.

There are many magic things sprinkled in the code, that really ought to be documented in the .dat part of the Wiki.  Ideally, behaviours like the automatic monorail foundation logic would be generalized instead of magic... someday...

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 08:12:39 AM »
Ah, a pity it only works for monorails. Other elevated ways (tracks, roads etc.) cannot do this trick. (In simwerkz.cc the function wkz_depot_t::work has a special case for monorail_wt).

Would it be an idea to make it a bit more general? When I build a depot on an elevated (railroad-)track it now "hangs" in the air. I was planning to have a look how it was solved for monorails and to use the same trick for this elevated depot, but that apparently won't work. As far as I could see the special case in wkz_depot_t::work for monorail_wt is easy extendable for all waytypes. The only strange thing is then that this foundation is still called "MonorailGround" whatever you use it for, but that is better than "hanging" depots, I feel. (The option to have different foundations for each waytype is a lot more work, I feel, it should be coded as a new object_type, I think).

Prissi, the shed is indeed also available as extension under the name "MonorailFoundation". But you can't build it under elevated track I think (but I will look into this in the weekend, as that would solve the hanging depot problem as well).

Offline VS

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 02:26:35 PM »
A bilding below a brodge should overlay the pillar, especially, if it has its front image defined.
Ha! Assuming that's true, it's worth one whole internets - as "already implemented" :)

Extensions can be already built under bridges and elevated ways; only, in some cases, a pillar has to be removed first :D



I can only second Combuijs' idea about auto-foundation for other waytypes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 02:40:52 PM by VS »

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2013, 09:06:56 PM »
Just to report that the MonorailFoundation can indeed be placed under elevated track. Currently its waytype is Monorail_track, but if you delete that from the source file (and type=shed also, because that won't do anything...) it can be built as a general extension (so it won't appear in the monorail menu anymore).

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 08:13:01 AM »
The current monorail-depot-foundation stuff is kind of ugly.

It could be extended to all way-types. But it remains to specify rules for these kind of stuff. Under which conditions can something be build on elevated way, when should which foundation be placed. Should stacking be allowed?

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 09:15:37 AM »
I certainly agree with Dwachs comments. Rather constrains for certain buildings nextto[NSWEupdown] could be the way to the future.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 12:34:55 PM »
I like the constraints idea! So if a building was required by another it should be placed automatically, and if it can't be placed then construction of the first building should be forbidden?

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 02:27:42 PM »
Yes, something like that. Would require some changes of the icon to indicate suitable tiles or not.

Offline VS

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 02:55:23 PM »
Maybe the cursor or some kind of preview would indicate this better?

Offline mEGa

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 12:55:58 PM »
I'm trying to create extension of station as japan extension models  for elevated Parisian stations project.



It is composed by 3 elements
- left : simple walls with murals
- centre : opened doors to issues
- right : little chops
You could put them as you will want.

Finally, is it good solution to offer realism isn't it ?

See french post to more details (Sorry only in french)
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8460.msg111317#msg111317

Offline greenling

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 03:30:00 PM »
Hello Mega
That Photo Looks very good out.
You have make a very good job.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 06:26:45 PM »
Once again, I'm aware of tricks like that, I have even created an elevated maglev way with no pillars for that use in MLM dev., however I would find more user-friendly to have buildings as I described here.

Wouldn't it be easier to code using some parts used by artificial slopes ?

Offline Ters

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2013, 08:09:59 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to code using some parts used by artificial slopes ?

I don't think so, except for what artificial slopes, bridges, elevated ways and tunnels have in common already. Artificial slopes have no building aspects whatsoever. The vertical walls are drawn as part of the tile in front, or so I've read.

Offline prissi

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 12:53:37 PM »
You could do this with only one foreground element with 16 rotations ...

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »
I'm trying to create extension of station as japan extension models  for elevated Parisian stations project.

You can easily create an elevated station that descends "below" its ground, using the x,y offset parameter for FrontImage, like this:

FrontImage[1][0][0][0][0][0]=elevated-station-with-lower-extension.0.0,0,32

Use Y offset = pakset_size/4, for example 32 with pak128. Note that if you build such a station on the ground, it will look very strange!

Offline greenling

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2013, 08:15:41 PM »
Woh. That it a crasy idea Wlindley.

Offline AP

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2013, 07:22:41 AM »
Has it just repeated the tiles down to give 3 storeys? It looks odd because the facade is flat. Other designs might work better in this scenario.

Look at London St Pancras - a tall brick facade,richly detailed and articulated, but each tier is very similar. Ditto a stone facade with classical columns, where the columns just get taller.




Offline mEGa

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Re: Station's extensions in ground (but not underground)
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2013, 08:01:17 AM »
Thank you Windley. Very interesting. I'll try to create them soon.