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Offline mEGa

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Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« on: February 26, 2013, 04:13:04 PM »
Well,
A long time ago I ask me about uggly effect when ships are waiting near harbor terminal. Boats seems to enter through platform.
So i Decided to improve that by correcting pak :
platforms are now on background and mooring buoys mark location of stop point.
See the difference :
- left new template with mooring buoys (lightning by night)
- right : old set with boat into platform.
Notice : I designed also winter aspect with snow.

What are your thoughts ? Can I continue another harbor set ?

EDIT :
png file :
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:19:10 PM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 04:19:17 PM »
Very nice, but still ugly...  8)

The ship still seems to go through the roof of the loading area. Or am I interpreting the picture in the wrong way? You would like to have an open area there with only some mooring?

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 04:28:52 PM »
Very nice, but still ugly...  8)

The ship still seems to go through the roof of the loading area. Or am I interpreting the picture in the wrong way? You would like to have an open area there with only some mooring?
Yes you're right for old pak... New pak is on left background with mooring buoys.
See new snapshot with explanation

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 07:11:37 PM »
Ah, brilliant!

Did you change the .dat file as well? (Planning to copy this to my own pak...)

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 07:52:02 PM »
Very nice idea!  It makes it look much more organized.

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 08:29:12 PM »
Hi mEGa, this is a very interesting aspect. I would support your idea. Maybe it would be nice to add docks on left and/or right?

I found this solution from MHZ:

Or this Pier from pak128 japan:


We definitely need more than the existing Harbour-Tools. I thought some time ago about some addons which are missing. There are some japanese addons, but i think there is much more potential in Harbour-Tools.


Ideas for example:

- Marina (Curiosity)
- Beach (Curiosity)
- Ship mooring
- Pier
- Buoyes (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6893.msg66673#msg66673)
- Embankment
- Levee (Way)
- Container Harbour (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=10615.msg101677#msg101677)
- Harbour Buildings (Station Extensions)

Some Examples for Brainstorming:

Marina

Pier  

Simcity    

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:59:01 PM by Raiser »

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 08:49:49 PM »
Hello Mega
your work looks good out.
Excuse me how have the modern containercran bs download?

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 10:46:21 PM »
Excuse me how have the modern containercran bs download?

You can download it from japanese simutrans:

Port Container Terminal set



http://japanese.simutrans.com/index.php?Addon128%2FOthers

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 09:06:51 AM »
Hi mEGa, this is a very interesting aspect. I would support your idea. Maybe it would be nice to add docks on left and/or right?
Thank's. I thought about docks too. But when ships arrived it goes sometimes on parallel way, cutting this type of docks. For passengers terminal set as you found it will be possible.
One notice : we need this area on water to define the point of stop. Players don't have to forget it.Then I prefered mooring buoyes for this reason.

We definitely need more than the existing Harbour-Tools. I thought some time ago about some addons which are missing. There are some japanese addons, but i think there is much more potential in Harbour-Tools.


Ideas for example:

- Marina (Curiosity)
- Beach (Curiosity)
- Ship mooring
- Pier
- Buoyes (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6893.msg66673#msg66673)
- Embankment
- Levee (Way)
- Container Harbour (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=10615.msg101677#msg101677)
- Harbour Buildings (Station Extensions)

you read in my thoughts ;)
At first, I'm just going to modify existent harbour element to accordate them. But we could design together this ambitious project

EDIT : the sources of first improvement (long_good_dock)
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/long_goods_dock.zip
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:26:56 PM by mEGa »

Offline wlindley

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 01:09:58 PM »
Excellent!

Nitpicks: Could you correct "habour" to "harbour" in the .dat -- the proper spelling has been supported for many years.  Also, the plural of "buoy" is "buoys" -- no 'e'. 

I wonder whether we could have a parameter that says whether to dock ships alongside a quay that extends into the water (the ship resting perpendicular to the shore), or conversely to have ships rest next to a wharf (ship parallel to the shore).

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 02:58:48 PM »
Nitpicks: Could you correct "habour" to "harbour" in the .dat -- the proper spelling has been supported for many years.  Also, the plural of "buoy" is "buoys" -- no 'e'. 
done... (harbour and buoys ;) ) Many thanks
modified sources here : http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/long_goods_dock_src.zip
I wonder whether we could have a parameter that says whether to dock ships alongside a quay that extends into the water (the ship resting perpendicular to the shore), or conversely to have ships rest next to a wharf (ship parallel to the shore).
I hope too. it will be more realistic.

So new "shipstop" now :

sources file here : http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/shipstop_src.zip

EDIT:

New post_dock :

sources file here : http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/post_dock_src.zip
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:50:43 PM by mEGa »

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 04:45:24 PM »
Thank you Mega
for the new harbor.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 05:55:04 PM »
You can download it from japanese simutrans:

Port Container Terminal set



http://japanese.simutrans.com/index.php?Addon128%2FOthers

Does anyone know how they got the ship to dock side on? That would be a huge improvement graphically rather than the typical nose-on dockings we often get!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 06:00:25 PM »
Probably that active crane (note it's different from the other two, which are up with so don't have shade) is the "real" dock, an everything else may be just extensions... not sure though.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 10:04:30 PM »
We should have also some long pier (2+ tiles) harbor on Pak 128, other paksets have them already ;)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2013, 09:18:15 AM »
Does anyone know how they got the ship to dock side on? That would be a huge improvement graphically rather than the typical nose-on dockings we often get!
Probably that active crane (note it's different from the other two, which are up with so don't have shade) is the "real" dock, an everything else may be just extensions... not sure though.
they are only extension harbour. I used them  more times ago and I saw same uggly effect. Ships go through pier.
In this snapshot, I mean ships navigate along pier and not stopped.

After first improvement of existent elements, I would try to create this type of pier for pak128 as Raiser suggested. Perhaps use existent last platforms, last cranes and loading frame. Some help is welcome :-)

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2013, 11:10:21 AM »
they are only extension harbour. I used them  more times ago and I saw same ugly effect. Ships go through pier.
In this snapshot, I mean ships navigate along pier and not stopped.

After first improvement of existent elements, I would try to create this type of pier for pak128 as Raiser suggested. Perhaps use existent last platforms, last cranes and loading frame. Some help is welcome :-)

Yes, you are right. Ships go trough pier as like they do by the other harbours. Should we also try to align new piers to the top tile border? It would be possible to combine them with station extensions, roads, etc. on land then?

Next question: Is it possible to build Extensions on water, for example a Levee, which are not crossed/hit by ships?




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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2013, 03:42:08 PM »
Well, I continued to improve harbour set. Here a new test to resolve some graphic bugs :


You can see now that slope of beach is respected. this set are composed by 2 elements (1 = main & 2 = extended).
Should we also try to align new piers to the top tile border? It would be possible to combine them with station extensions, roads, etc. on land then?
As you can see I voluntarily kept a small height for piers by creating steps to arrive at the top of the tile. Because if we align this new piers to the top tile border, I'm afraid that difference between height of ships and piers is too high.
Have you any different idea to correct it ? We can also raise height of step to align them with top of platform...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 03:59:04 PM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 04:19:27 PM »
How about 1/2 of tile height? Then it would be easier to adapt to future lower slopes, too...?

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2013, 06:48:13 PM »
Hello mega
The Harbor on the photo looks very goood out.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2013, 08:02:49 PM »
Clearly we just need bigger ships to scale up to the docks ;)

That aside, I agree with VS... maybe 1/2 height docks, adding another step or larger step in the process.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 03:30:49 PM »
Clearly we just need bigger ships to scale up to the docks ;)

That aside, I agree with VS... maybe 1/2 height docks, adding another step or larger step in the process.

To work together, we will need a precise 1x1 tile template with full-height & half-height slopes. I'm trying to build one - but I'm not shure if it's correct?

Would someone check this template?

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/2x2_tile_template.7z

IMHO it would at first be useful to create 2-3 standard-pavements and harbour-walls (wooden, concrete, rusty, etc.) for common use?

Next question: Is it possible to build Extensions on water, for example a Levee, which are not crossed/hit by ships?

« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:00:12 PM by Raiser »

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 09:29:01 AM »
To work together, we will need a precise 1x1 tile template with full-height & half-height slopes. I'm trying to build one - but I'm not shure if it's correct?
It's correct for me.
IMHO it would at first be useful to create 2-3 standard-pavements and harbour-walls (wooden, concrete, rusty, etc.) for common use?
Good idea. I'll use them, sure.

there is a link of all testing sources to share my work :
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/long_dock-tests_all_src.zip
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 09:35:56 AM by mEGa »

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 01:56:52 PM »
Hi, i finished the harbour-template. Everyone is welcome to work with it to build new Harbours  :D

As next step i try to paint some wall/pier patterns



http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/2x2_tile_harbour_template.7z

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 08:36:07 AM »
Thank you Raiser. I'm going to try to create new pier with it.
May be, we can delete ocean texture, because, imho, transparent tile is better ?

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2013, 04:46:34 PM »
Well,
I come back with new version (under half-tile) and a new designed crane :



Pier : a background wall offers a border
Crane  is coloured with color player and appears since 1942 (like date of original pak) It freely inspired by real crane used in Saint Nazaire (Harbour of France)


A simple pier can be create without any crane but with containers for example to complete this set.
What are your thoughts ?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:55:11 PM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2013, 04:58:42 PM »
Lovely! Looks very good!

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2013, 05:12:32 PM »
Hello Mega
The Cranes they you have be paint look s very good out. :thumbsup:

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2013, 10:57:54 PM »
Very nice cranes!  They make the shops look small... if only we could make to-scale ships :)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 08:39:00 AM »
They make the shops look small... if only we could make to-scale ships :)
Yes, size of ships is the main problem I mean. They are probably too small, IMHO.
So, question is :
- make to scale crane to ships and cranes will are too small compared with another items (platforms, gantries, buildings)
or
- Keep cranes like that and maybe later enlarge the scale of boats
I don't know how to do.

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2013, 01:43:26 PM »
Yes, size of ships is the main problem I mean. They are probably too small, IMHO.
So, question is :
- make to scale crane to ships and cranes will are too small compared with another items (platforms, gantries, buildings)
or
- Keep cranes like that and maybe later enlarge the scale of boats
I don't know how to do.


Hi mEGa, i knew that you would something plot during the last days :)

The Cranes are very Cool - maybe add some more details by reducing the due of the player colour? In addition i think its better to use new pavements and pier walls. That industrial pavement looks not really good at harbour embankments. Rusty Sheetpiles in combination with the cranes would look more realistic.

IMHO ships are certainly too small, they are even smaller than planes! It would be better to enlarge the scale of boats later. Perhaps "Zeno" still have the sources and the blender files from his ships, so it would be easy to rescale a large number??? I would keep cranes like that.

Here is a link to Zeno's website: http://simutrans-creations.blogspot.de/search/label/ships

Example:

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2013, 04:36:07 PM »
Yes, I've seen those ships from Zeno, they are fantastic!  The problem is that they look crazy when going up canals/small waterways, especially when they turn around and the front and back of the ship swing through the ground/harbours, etc.

That said, for me it's worth the compromise to have ships that are more to scale.  To really be at scale, though, the large ships would have to be massive... but we have to draw the line somewhere :)  (and we're limited to 255x255 pixels)

Probably best kept as addons.

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2013, 04:44:19 PM »
We can not make the Ships bigger than 255 pixels more can Makeobj.exe not support.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
Well a little sleep before continuing this project.
I'm agree Raiser, new crane will be a part of new pakset of harbor extended. And then, I will apply new pavements for pier.
I don't want to replace existent harbours set, but only improve them.

So I submit you this improvement :



To morrow I'll finish bulk_dock.

This improvements include winter views, water stop area and addons are built over half tile. IMHO I corrected all graphic bugs as possible.

For example : Crate_goods_dock :
Old version New version
 



Paks for testing (name of building is with number 2 at end) :
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/long_goods_dock_2a.pak
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/shipstop2.pak
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/post_dock_2.pak
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/crate_goods_dock_2.pak


« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 05:19:16 PM by mEGa »

Offline Zeno

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2013, 05:44:11 PM »
All ships are rendered in a tile size of 250px, although a big amount could fit in 192px. Anyway, I used 250 only because that was a size where *all* ships could be rendered "inside", so it would be a matter of picking another standard and redrawing all.
Np resizing as I keep all sources in safe place :)

Edit: Moreover, IIRC, there was a pak (was it 192?) where ships were coded in 2 or 3 parts, allowing huge ships. They looked really odd when turning around though...

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2013, 05:52:04 PM »
Hello Mega
came from the long_goods_dock_2a.pak,shipstop2.pak,post_dock_2.pak,crate_goods_dock_2.pak the png and dat files
to?

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »
Meanwhile i made a sheetpiles wall - horizontally and vertically aligned! Maybe you can use it. Currently I am working on a sandy beach  8)




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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2013, 07:10:49 PM »
A small foretaste to the upcoming beach in a cold, wintry season ;)  We definitely need more Sun!


Beach preview (south view, left & center):


Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2013, 07:34:43 PM »
Raiser
The Beach looks very good out.
I want on the Beach!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2013, 07:38:21 PM »
Hey, is that a shark in the beach???!!! :o

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2013, 07:53:49 PM »
Wow, I leave for a few weeks and this comes out of nowhere! The new docks are very good :) I would just ask you to keep all the files (or possibly store somewhere), as the potential coming of half heights could make some changes needed...

The only complaint I would have with the new crane is that its "smooth" appearance merges rather poorly with the other items :(

Huge ships would need... well, I don't know. Recoding of hte vehicles to something entirely new, spanning more than one tile in game logic, perhaps. I don't think cluttering this topic with that discussion is a good idea, though ;)

Sharks... quick, pak128 needs a hospital! :D

Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2013, 10:22:26 AM »
Here is my try on the harbor extensions. I made a few standard tiles so we can work on the details. (fences, stairs and bollards)
 
Cobblestone <1930
Harbor in the middle of the city so there will be warehouses on the tile.
goods packed in crates, barrels and sacks.
other details: cannons, cranes with a running wheel were well paid workers can lift the cargo, house carriages, missing pirates, pubs and a house for the hard working woman.
 
Industrial (brick) 1931-1980
It's the time of steam the harbors move away from the city's.
goods are still in crates, barrels and sacks but are on pallets for easier handling.
other details: steam cranes and truck's
 
modern (concrete-asphalt) 1981-2010
This is the one we use now so that we can take what we have with us.
goods can be on pallets but first containers are coming up.
 
And I'm planning to make a Container harbor extension for 2010> (like Maasvlakte 2)
With portal cranes, AGV's, containers and a bulk/oil terminal

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9cs5yivfyzwdmzp/Harbor_tiles.png

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2013, 04:18:28 PM »
Hello INJMVO
The harbor pngfile looks nice out. :thumbsup:

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2013, 04:30:08 PM »
A very interesting discussion. Many ideas as I see ! Thank you all.

Well I finished improvements of all existent harbour set.



There is sources of definitively addons as VS and greenling asked :
I don't submit compiled pak in this sources. If you want testing them before including pak128 download the special test paks in previous posts. And then there is last (bulk...) :
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/bulk_dock_2.pak

(EDIT3 : cut links are corrected thank you greenling)

So if you're agree for these proposals, thank you per advance to Zeno, Fabio or VS to commit them in the repository.


Now I can continue project of new added harbour set. I'll try to include Raiser's sheetpiles (Thank you very much) and create new pier with concrete pavement, improved cranes and some details and accessories (container...).I mean they will have a 2x1 tiles for size.
@VS : I designed cranes like last gantry of ground platforms. I think they will be a complement in modern period of the game (after 1945...)

@Raiser : nice idea your designed beach ! It  will be a good attraction imho.

EDIT : @ INJMVO
Thank you for your proposal. Just one thing : don't forget natural slope of bank. If you do a graphic bug can appear like that :


EDIT2 : just for fun : night view of example of harbour set with ship waiting :
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 05:10:15 PM by mEGa »

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2013, 04:57:45 PM »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2013, 05:21:01 PM »
Great work, those are fabulous!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2013, 04:30:53 PM »
Hi Community,
I submit you a proposal of new_long_dock to complete the pack. It will appears since 1970 (or another date you want) and based on 3x2 tiles. It also respect half tile alignment.
I included sheet piles created by Raiser (nice aspect, isn't it ?)

For this I create new gantry crane (from existent cranes used in Rotterdam) :


What are your thoughts ?

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2013, 04:47:41 PM »
Woh Mega
The first photo looks very good out.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2013, 06:39:07 PM »
Very nice!

A couple of thoughts:

Adding a bit of texture variation to the piles might make them look less "sterile".  I look the look, though!

The train on the dock looks a bit out of place because it has no actual access to the dock area by tracks, but the concept is very nice.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2013, 03:30:48 AM »
mEGa a container dock been something sorely missing so far. Very good addition.

One question: Container ships, container stacks, why boxcars in the train? (i assume the train is an integral part of the dock.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2013, 03:37:29 PM »
Hi, the same thoughts like sdog and mEGa - i tried to make the sheetpile a bit smaller - does this fit better?



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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2013, 07:41:24 PM »
That's very nice, the extra piles makes it look better.  Is it possible to add a bit of texture variation to them?  Just a small amount to smooth the colours out a bit and make it look less artificial.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2013, 02:56:19 PM »
I heard your last comments (thanks) and I agree with you.
so a new test with modifications :
- new Raiser's sheet piles
- a slope with track
- a cargo_container empty waiting charge




Offline sdog

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2013, 08:41:35 PM »
i'd say, the ramp is not really working as a sollution to the problem sarlock described. The train seeming out of place is something that could be fixed later on with a station extension building providing such a ramp at a better angle and perhaps something the ramp leads to.

The easiest sollution might be to have a point in the tracks, have them go at about 45 degrees towards the wall, and just paint a small tunnel entrance into the retaining wall. At another point an extension building could be drawn that just has the same type of rail tracks comming up from below.

The problem dissapears with half-height landscapes anyway. Then the ramp would look very strange.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 08:48:20 PM by sdog »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2013, 09:14:10 PM »
I made a change to my textures. (finally got a good way to make them)
and i made a overview of what we have so far
Sorry to say that i made it in gimp and not in game. (we don't have corner-tiles for harbors yet)


How wide do we want the harbor to be?
Its easy to go out to sea with the standard tiles but how far do we want to go on land?
As mEGa proposed some matter of transport for harbors isn't a bad idea.
In container harbors the containers get first loaded on AGV's before stored and moved on to trains, trucks or smaller ships.
And for the earlier ones you have horse carriages and small shunting locomotives on harbor track.
Its a bit of micromanagement if it isn't automated but it would be fun. (and we can always make it so that you don't need to use it, but can use it if you want that big cargo hub)
Edit: show image



« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 12:36:44 AM by INJMVO »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2013, 12:11:13 AM »
I think we definitely need a whole concept for harbours and their extensions - for example: The beach I'm working on is planned in combination with a parking place to expand it to a real scene. At best, the parking place will be combinable with other intentions in the city or as extension for a factory.

Maybe we have to find at first a match about general pier/dock appearance (half tile/full tile), and some different textures (e.g. sheet piles, concrete, brick wall). I think we should primary work on textures and publish them here, so that everyone will work with the same basics. Then we need a concept about what type of harbours/piers/docks/extensions we want to include, and how they are combinable to give a full picture.

IMHO a full scene would look like this:

- vary of industrial piers (like existing set and mEGa's Cranes)
- a passenger pier
- a marina
- a beach
- a levee or rock-dam to be able to define a harbor area
- some extension building as station extensions on land
- ???

@ sarlock: OK, i took a look on the sheetpiles and optimized them - i hope i removed all imperfections and made them look more smooth.

@ INJMVO:  corners will be important - would you please post the dat files/sources?

What are your thoughts? We could bundle our work!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:36:49 AM by Raiser »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2013, 01:29:47 AM »
Rather than train, how about trucks?  Then a ramp concept would fit much more appropriately.

Or, better yet, straddle carriers/gantry cranes for container hauling.





http://www.kalmarind.co.uk/pages/straddle-carriers.php

Then you aren't constrained by the railway and it can be more modular and more easily adapted to a dual half/full height scenario.

I'd be happy to contribute to graphics in a week when I return from vacation.  The only difficulty is that we each have our own styles when it comes to graphics and it most constrast a bit.  I'd be more inclined to use blender for modelling.

One thing I'd love to see is jetties.  They can be used for large river mouth port entrances, by docks, etc.  They add a really nice realistic touch to a harbour area.  To be done properly, though, they would have to be ploppable on ocean tiles which currently isn't possible unless it's coded as a ship depot.  You could make pre-fab lengths but in order to be truly useful it should be modular and buildable to any length desired.

EDIT: New piles look great, Raiser, much nicer effect :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:15:09 AM by Sarlock »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2013, 09:31:22 AM »
i'd say, the ramp is not really working as a sollution to the problem sarlock described. The train seeming out of place is something that could be fixed later on with a station extension building providing such a ramp at a better angle and perhaps something the ramp leads to.
I'm agree it's very artificial ! I mean that last Sarlock's solution is better. I thought same idea : special trucks to carriage only containers, but we do not have to forget the old periods, because this vehicle type is recent. I thus propose simple trucks for the first periods (on 1930->1970) then these automatic vehicles from 1970.
The problem dissapears with half-height landscapes anyway. Then the ramp would look very strange.
Yes. this is why I do not make at first.
I think we definitely need a whole concept for harbours and their extensions - ...At best, the parking place will be combinable with other intentions in the city or as extension for a factory.
...Then we need a concept about what type of harbours/piers/docks/extensions we want to include, and how they are combinable to give a full picture.
YES !!! I vote for it.
I think, we can at first create some elements : textures, details or accessories as we began (your sheetpile, INJMVO's platforms, cranes...) and then decide which piece we keep to elaborate harbor set concept.

So I continue to create another view of my gantry crane and submit you sources.

Nice project really !

EDIT :
Another idea:
Why do not simulate goods trafic of harbor with showing/hiding pile of containers like animated smoke represents activity of factories ? But I don't know if coding is possible...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 09:43:56 AM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2013, 10:21:27 AM »
you should be able to animate harbours like any other building (not sure).


Is the weird looking slope on the right of the harbour part of the graphics? Or is this some kind of program bug?

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2013, 04:13:44 PM »
Is the weird looking slope on the right of the harbour part of the graphics? Or is this some kind of program bug?
No it's a graphic bug when pasting element in Gimp.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2013, 11:51:27 PM »
Here are the png files for the harbor tiles. i don't have made the dat files yet but i will start on them.
The tiles are sloped as mEGa suggested but the tiles with the wall at the back (Tier I) are missing a bit through this.
Is there a solution for?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iyw2khmm25hnnz/StoneHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnhkljr4s3x0p6b/IndustrialHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/izdybg6y030rmey/ModernHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/agi4ceqzmscz8fy/ContainerHarborTileSloped.png

And i played around with the sheetpile texture with some interesting results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kb7q8d9ivusa2be/SheetpileAsphaltHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ty9t2qr01c7spw/SheetpileConcreteHarborTileSloped.png


Edit: added some eye candy

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:40:56 AM by INJMVO »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2013, 10:29:57 AM »
Good beginning !
The tiles are sloped as mEGa suggested but the tiles with the wall at the back (Tier I) are missing a bit through this.
Is here a solution for?
Yes I had also noticed it. I had tried to play unsuccessfully with {front/back}images in dat file. So I realized long_dock on 2x3 tiles to bypass this problem. after  some searches, I just found this trick :
drawing  a triangle wall and hiding hole by leading elements when we combine every piece of set. I know it isn't a good solution. It will be disappear when we could use half height on game.
So I'm like you : I ask question too.

EDIT : Maybe continue the idea of slope in bottom to hide the bug. This one can then be to delete during version "in half height".
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:38:37 AM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »
The levees/breakwaters are a great idea Raiser.
For the materials we can use:
·         Stone 1950< (or still use for small breakwaters?)
·         Tetrapod 1950
·         Accropode 1981
·         Xbloc 2001
·         Accropode II 2004 (maybe form 2010> because of the Xbloc?)
It would be nice if they were coded like roads/walls so that they have diagonals.
Ten we can also use it for sandbanks, (coral)reefs and swamps = speed 5
But we are at the mercy of the coders for that :P.

They also make great entrances to be used as choose sign as proposed in:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6893.msg66673#msg66673
Green buoys for entrance and red for exit.
Here is a rough sketch of my thoughts:
 I won't do much more on this because I think 3D will shine here :P
since the placing of the blocs is complex for 2D



Here are the .png, .dat and .pak files of the harbor tiles for testing.
Warning: there are 12 objects in each .pak (3 straight and 9 corners)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2z6gff70nhapwdo/HarborTile.zip
Ps does someone have a better texture for the tiles as the city and industry pavement?

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2013, 03:41:18 PM »
I forgot to commit the new harbours... Tomorrow!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2013, 07:39:14 PM »
@INJMVO
very decorative these  levees 8) 

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2013, 11:19:02 PM »
I could try and model the levees in 3D with blender and see how they look... it shouldn't be too hard to do after a model a few different sizes/shapes of boulders and pile them up.

We can't directly place tiles on the ocean so we're restricted to having them originate from a land tile.  These are also intended to be station extensions so they will be connected to a harbour area.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2013, 12:34:42 AM »
INJMVO, its really getting hot in here :) I like your "first" sketch of the breakwaters - i think going ahead in this direction will be the right way.  Which software do you use? Blender? Sketchup?

I tried to make a rock-dam as boundary for the beach with sketchup, but I'm not happy with the result. It looks a bit like made with modelling clay  :P




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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2013, 02:32:44 AM »
Yes I know Sarlock but I hope that one day or prince will come (a coder looking for a new project)
Who looks at the image's en the examples and thinks that it would be really cool to have corners for harbors and levees on water.
If I could code it I would do it but I only just started with python so it would take me years :P
The only thing I can "see" is that for the levees you can probably  use a part of the code for the roads (there are walls  on land already with speed = 0) but for the corners even I as the creator have no idea how to code it. (we have a part that connect stations with dim 1,1,16 but around corners???)
The coders seem to be busy with the half-height for now, which in my opinion is a super nice expansion for Simutrans.
So until they're ready to start this project I play with the parts that work, make new things and dream big for new projects. :P
 
Raiser I mostly draw in gimp but to get the shapes by modeling in Sketchup (or Microstation/Autocad sincs I'm studying to become  a civil engineer :P)
advantage is that I can easily make rough sketches and objects that require the same layout.
But for the levees you have a complex geometry that needs to be on all sides (look at pictures of breakwaters the blocks are all over the place)
In Sketchup this means bad lightning default textures and easy stacking (putting a lot of Components on top and trough each other) resulting in a clay effect.
I started some tutorials in blender (I want to know a bit of everything)  but I'm not happy with the results yet. But I see that you can make much nicer 3D models which you can stack more natural for the levee. (that's why I said that someone with 3d skills could do this better + it's easy to rotate the model to al the sides needed for a road like object)
So I can't wait to see what Sarlock and the other 'modeler's' makes for us. :P
 
So here is my next part of the set: Canal quays in the styles of the harbor tiles.
Because of the walls I needed to update the stations to dim 1,1,8 so we get a lot of playground. :p
The parts with the walls are for in city's when the canal is below street level. (.png, .dat and .pak)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bbplv89gw0ljpm8/Canalquay.zip
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:57:31 AM by INJMVO »

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2013, 04:56:47 AM »
It's pretty easy to do in blender.  Set up a sun light source overhead and tweak the environment lighting to get rid of the really nasty shadows that you get from a single light source overhead.  When I get back from vacation next week I'll work on it.  I've been doing something similar with the landscape cliffs so I already have some premade rock objects that I can easily adapt for jetties.

The key will be to use different textures for the rocks so that they all don't share the same colouration.

It's not likely that we'll be able to make these modular any time soon but we can make prefab 3 or 4 length jetties in the four directions quite easily.  You just place them on the shoreline beside your harbour tiles and you're done.

We could make a separate package of addon pieces for people who want to be more creative and have a palette of options available in a submenu.  It may not be a hard coding change to allow harbour components to be placed on water tiles.  If we find a willing coder... they're all busy with bigger projects.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2013, 02:03:16 PM »
After going through this thread again, I am a bit confused. mEGa, what exactly are the remakes of original docks that should be committed?

(I am also not certain if anyone actually understands how docks are supposed to work. You don't put a waypoint directly on the dock, but next to it... Thus, the ship should not go "on" it, really. But the short docks are nicer that the current "dock + ugly box" model :) )

Being able to build harbours freely from more tiles would be nice, too... That's a dream we share all, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 02:41:37 PM by VS »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2013, 02:25:10 PM »
Quote
(I am also not certain if anyone actually understands how docks are supposed to work. You don't put a waypoint directly on the dock, but next to it... Thus, the ship should not go "on" it, really

As far as I understand it, a dock can have size 1 x n, where there is only one land-tile: (0,0). The others (0,1) to (0,n-1) are water tiles. Those water tiles can be selected as a waypoint. A ship can go right through those water tiles. It will moor parallel to the land-tile.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2013, 02:41:08 PM »
Well... I tried it, and to my shock, ships rather happily drive float through the docks regardless of position of waypoint. So it doesn't even matter :( I can now see 100% why the new docks will be better.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2013, 03:02:13 PM »
Oups I was lot of busy. I'm confused too.
So I don't understood what's happen. I modified existent harbour pak to make an water area for that ships don't stop through infrastructure.
I thought that I was made as you can see in this snapshot :


Haven't you the same result when you tried ?

note : I added winter aspect too

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2013, 08:49:35 PM »
Stopping area for ships is on (any) empty water next to a dock. That's how it always worked.

But - often, ships move through dock anyway, even if the stopping tile is not on the dock itself. So the improvement is real.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2013, 09:17:21 PM »
The new tiles from mEGa (with the buoys) make it clear to the player were to put the waypoint.
This tile will be put in front of all the ready harbor tiles (for now only the ones mEGa revised)
 
After revising the old tiles we came to the conclusion that we needed more harbor tiles for different time periods. That's where I come in. I have made the template for a few different harbor tiles to build on. (with the possibility for corners but they are not in the code yet)
 
After those Raiser proposed for other objects to make the harbor more beautiful.
so we stepped onto the levees. (but those need a bit of code to make them work so I don't know how far we will go with them)
 
I have made the canal quays in the same style as the harbor so you can now unload a ship onto a barge. (see image below)
 
I also heard we needed a passenger terminal (and we need a image to get people inspired)
what better place to let them wait as on a ship that stands on the docks :P (.png .dat and .pak)

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2013, 10:04:41 PM »
I have made some harbor tiles for pak192 in the hope that they participate http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11708.0
And don't tell anyone but I think I have found some secrets since we need to test how it looks:https://www.dropbox.com/s/wylipj8350wqudw/HarborSecrets.pak
We got some new things now so I really want to see how you would use the new extensionsSo can you all make your dream harbor and upload a screenshot of them and talk us through them?Here are the pier tiles: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7bjd4lmpcjo9dyq/HarborPiers.pak
(would you use wide harbors, mEGa stop/buoy tiles everywhere or only in a few places, how wide do you want the pier to be, how do we use the levees, what are the differences between a industrial(steam) and a container harbor, how would the ships need to move (choose signal), etc)

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2013, 03:01:39 PM »
Well,
I give you "gantry_crane" model for accessories. Good enjoy ;-)

Then, I don't know how to proceed and haven't any path to continue. Too much tracks ? For me, real difficulties are the problem of slope appearance and half tile or not.
@INJMVO : your test for platform is interesting and bypass the problem, but IMHO it seems too much "stairs". I think we must find an issue for platforms templates.
To keep compatibilies of existent games with pak128, we must modify existent harbour set on 1 tile as I made. We have 2 solutions :
- we commit what I modified (with buoys), (if you're agree)
- we modify them with new idea and aspect (but we must validate a version...)
After, we could create new pakset with that we spoke in this post.

Finally, ideas of levees are very fine, but I don't see in which category of pak tidying up them. Ships shouldn't run through them. Thus would be element of ports ?

I hope you understood me with my poor english ;-)

@INJMVO: I crashed Simutrans (112.2 r6390 & pak 128 2.3.0) with your last purposed harbour paks. Any idea ?

Offline VS

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2013, 12:36:06 PM »
So, we are in the process of getting half height. What about the 4 reworks of already present docks - do they work now? I think there was much work done on these and it seems nearly forgotten...

I hate wasted work :)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2013, 02:51:01 PM »
mEGa and Sarlock should have svn access now and they're welcome to finish and commit them as they find appropriate. Otherwise I'll add this to my overlong todo list.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:57:02 PM by Fabio »

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2013, 03:00:18 PM »
mEGa should have svn access now and he's welcome to finish and commit them as he finds appropriate. Otherwise I'll add this to my overlong todo list.
Hi,
right. But i want to show you my work before commit. I mean I will improve my last proposition without rail track slop (Useless now with half height tile):

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2013, 03:36:26 PM »
Well yes, what to do with half/full height slopes with regards to harbours needs to be resolved.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2013, 05:02:12 PM »
Presently the pakset is in a work in progress stage, so partly done updates can be committed and then updated.
I would focus now on double height usability and later on perfecting the graphics.

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2013, 12:49:47 PM »
Hello Fabio
I have remark that the double height/ Half high code in my brain make many big trouble that i can not work on new modells.
Please reading the bugreport then i will so sone write.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2013, 08:05:38 AM »
@Fabio:
Ok. I noticed.
This week I'm going to collect last ones pak in the current state and commit these for tests.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:54:45 AM by mEGa »

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2013, 10:37:33 AM »
Thank you! I think that taking advantage of nightly builds will increase testing and feedback.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2013, 11:48:55 PM »
I'd be happy to help in any regard.  My graphical style differs a bit, so there might be some clashes there, but I can certainly take things and resize, move, test, etc.  My schedule is very busy for the next 6 weeks but I will have a lot of time to devote to projects mid-January.  I also have a major release of new trees, hoping to be ready by early spring.

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2013, 01:41:21 AM »
Hello, mEGa. I always use your updated harbor.
regarding of this graffic,one more crane please.(IMHO)
sorry too late to say :-[.


By the way, how's this crane?
Well,
I come back with new version (under half-tile) and a new designed crane :



Pier : a background wall offers a border
Crane  is coloured with color player and appears since 1942 (like date of original pak) It freely inspired by real crane used in Saint Nazaire (Harbour of France)


A simple pier can be create without any crane but with containers for example to complete this set.
What are your thoughts ?

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2013, 03:59:07 PM »
Hello, mEGa. I always use your updated harbor.
Thank you for this ;)

regarding of this graffic,one more crane please.(IMHO)
sorry too late to say :-[ .
All right. Soon I'm going to continue this work. But at moment I update current horbor pakset to prepare half height version of pak128
By the way, how's this crane?
As I said previous paragraph, I will continue this work to offer more different addons.

So I commited my recent work improving current harbor pakset :




I'm going now to adapt slope for half height version and delete the background wall.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 04:46:33 PM by mEGa »

Offline Fabio

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2013, 04:53:12 PM »
In r1338!

Thank you mEGa!

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #90 on: November 26, 2013, 07:06:20 PM »
Awesome, mEGa, thanks!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2013, 12:49:41 AM »
oh I see, good job mEGa, thank you.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2013, 02:44:49 PM »
Well I improved one of harbour pier to test adaptation of slope for half height.



commited in 1339 revision

If you agree, I will improve other docks with this adaptation.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:10:10 PM by mEGa »

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2013, 03:42:50 PM »
Looks great, mEGa!

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2013, 06:24:33 PM »
awesome :thumbsup:

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2013, 03:19:50 PM »
Well,
I continue to adapt and improve current set of harbour with :
- Post_dock

- long_dock

_bulk_dock


in r1341

Edit last current set : crate_goods_dock in r1342



« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 03:59:31 PM by mEGa »

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2013, 06:31:18 PM »
Wonderful!  Not only do we get half height docks but we also get more snow :)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2013, 06:56:44 PM »
I'm glad you like it. Thanx

Envoyé depuis mon GT-S5839i avec Tapatalk


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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #98 on: December 03, 2013, 04:58:12 PM »
Well I continue my design of new harbour element : with crane.
Here a draw of first piece : old pier with crane.



This element will be reversed forecast with just pier without crane but with contener
What do you mean about it ? What parameters, name...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 08:06:15 AM by mEGa »