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Author Topic: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction  (Read 11042 times)

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Offline Zeno

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PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« on: January 07, 2009, 10:25:01 PM »
Could we use this thread to collect data issues, errors and so. Having they together should make corrections easier. On the first post there could be an updated table with changes accepted and waiting to be corrected.
Btw, I would suggest a couple of corrections:

1) As Izzy and VS already know, Icarus 260 and 280 have incorrect weight (31tn), while it should be 12tn for the 280. I'm not sure this value is for 280, and even it was correct, I don't know the value for the 260 model. But I guess it will be much less than the 31 current tonnes. Please, confirm if any know the correct values!

2) I've seen some EMUs that have its passenger wagons with no engine type coded. It might make sense as they don't really have engine, but that makes the engined wagons to appear in one tab (electrics_tab) and the non-engined-wagons in the other tab!! So you can get mad just buying a train. The AR-4 and Haru ACE are the two I've found.


NEXT CHANGES:
Ikarus 280 will change weight from 31+22 to 9.2+3.3 (12.5) tons. Maybe also get a lower gear. Done.
Ikarus 260 will change weight from 31 to 9.1 tons. Maybe also get a lower gear. Done.

Tested EMUs wagons (MEZ 451) using electric engine type and work ok.
This will put EMUs with its wagons together in tabs.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 10:15:55 PM by Zeno »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 11:51:28 PM »
2) I've seen some EMUs that have its passenger wagons with no engine type coded. It might make sense as they don't really have engine, but that makes the engined wagons to appear in one tab (electrics_tab) and the non-engined-wagons in the other tab!! So you can get mad just buying a train. The AR-4 and Haru ACE are the two I've found.

The problem with changing that is then it would be possible to have a train made up just of rolling stock with no power - if they were given an engine with 0 power. If they were given > 0 power, that would then upset the whole balancing. This seems to be an inevitable side effect of the "electrics_tab" tab.

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 08:18:25 AM »
The problem with changing that is then it would be possible to have a train made up just of rolling stock with no power - if they were given an engine with 0 power.
No it wouldn't. Constraints would avoid no-powered trains. An EMU wagon (if well coded) can be allowed to be ONLY between a front and a tail wagons, for instance; you can achieve that using constraints. That way you can prevent the waggon to be purchased alone.
But, I've to mention that there will possibly be shown in the waggon stats that has power: 0kW...

Offline The Hood

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 09:08:02 AM »
Or for EMUs, seeing as all cars have passenger capacity, all cars could go in the "passenger trains" tab, using constraints to require a front and an end.  That's how it works in PakBritain at least...


Offline VS

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 10:30:38 AM »
All right, thanks for the thread!

Regarding weights and power - what should not be taken lightly is difference between how the vehicle should perform and how it performs. Setting values like in real life is all nice, but will not work alone. I would like to remind you that these weights were probably set so for a reason, and unfortunately we do not know it. Now that the reason might be gone, these values can be changed again.



The separation onto tabs is "dumb" and actual vehicle functions in game "clever". No problem there.

What I mean: *MUs mostly consist of two heads and wagons, all constrained together so that you can build only a convoy with two heads and varying number of wagons. Let's take the worst case example. If the engines are electric and carry nothing, they are on electrics tab; Wagons with no power stay on passenger tab. BUT: You can force a locomotive onto passenger tab by setting capacity 0 and good=passagiere. Then since it's electric, they are further moved onto electrics' tab. But when running between stations they are recognized as carrying nothing, that is, "plain" locomotives. Same goes for passenger cars: by setting engine_type=electric, you can force them onto el. tab, but power=0 makes them recognized as not locomotives out on the track. With this trick you can select optimal arrangement or these vehicles in depot.

PS: The separation works thus:
Code: [Select]
if (passenger) :
if (electric) :
tab_electric;
else :
tab_passenger;
else :
if (power) :
tab_locomotives;
else :
tab_wagons;

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 10:51:59 AM »
Regarding weights and power - what should not be taken lightly is difference between how the vehicle should perform and how it performs. Setting values like in real life is all nice, but will not work alone.
Absolutely agree. If Ikarus 280 weight changed from 31 to 12, f.i., gear should get to half of its value (aprox), to keep the relation between weight and power.

Moreover, I'll test the changes I suggested for the EMUs when I get back home this afternoon, so I can see the result is what I expected before we continue the discussion on it ;)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 11:45:01 AM »
Hmm, if the real-life values give odd performance, perhaps somebody should look at the physics coding...?

Offline VS

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 11:55:40 AM »
And break the rest of vehicles?

Anyway, I checked the Ikarus and it really is an oddity - all other vehicles have weight around 10t.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 12:05:38 PM »
And break the rest of vehicles?

No - the reader code will detect which vehicles are from old pakset versions, and can adjust accordingly.

Offline VS

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 12:40:06 PM »
Perhaps, but the current system is iirc "third generation" and far closer to realistic behaviour than its predecessors. Why, your biggest patch already pushes it to 4th gen. :) And it already includes features to readjust values. As long as the deviation from reality is acceptable, I do not see problems. Anyway, how do you compare to reality, when you can identify a tile with different lengths? As long as some numbers produce results that I find satisfying, there is no need to change. Having to readjust everything is a terrible cost which should be avoided.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2009, 01:50:57 PM »
Having to readjust everything is a terrible cost which should be avoided.

But there'd be no need to readjust if the code could detect an old version and adjust the behaviour accordingly :-) Then, with the old version, the behaviour would be no worse than it is now, but there would be an opportunity to make it better with a new version...

Offline Izzy

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2009, 09:04:54 PM »
In my opinion there is fewe ways to sot it out.
It may stay like it is.
It may be set according to real vechicles (but that may be a problem becaus not all data can be found)
It can be changed for all vehicles to suits game physics using one pattern and if some creators want be happy about that just remove their vahicles from official pack.

I would say that vehicles weight and power should be taken to the count while balancing vehicles. Weight should be set as standart value for diffrent type of vhicles depents on capacity, power and production year.

Cheers     

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 09:51:23 AM »
Well, I'll proceed by now (if there is no opposition) with EVIDENT and easy-to-correct modifications. By now, Ikarus 260/280 weights, which is obvious is much lower than 32 tons. I'll may adjust its gear to match the general stats of other buses. Anyone knows if this bus is specially slow or something?
AFAIK the author (S. Kroytor) gave its work to the community, so no problem modifying data I hope.

Offline VS

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 12:22:50 PM »
No problem there. Touching data does not change the graphics ;)

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 12:48:51 PM »
No problem there. Touching data does not change the graphics ;)
Great. From the website you posted in rebalance thread I got 12.2tn (net weight) for the 280 articulated; in current dat is 31tn the main body, PLUS 22tn the extension for a total (madness) of 53tn. That's what a modern international route truck full loaded weights :o

The most accurate info I've found about is the vehicles created in another game (not to mention); they have 16t for 260 and 19t for the 280 articulated... just for info ;D

If someone could get some more accurate/trustable info it would be great, at least for the 260 model! Thanks :P

Offline Bughu Baas

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2009, 04:31:41 PM »
For the Ikarus 260, you will find some information here: http://www.dresdner-nahverkehr.de/bus/fahrzeuge_nach45/ikarus/ikarus_260.htm
Empty: 9.1 t
Load: 6.9 t
Max total: 16 t

Malte

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »
For the Ikarus 260, you will find some information here: http://www.dresdner-nahverkehr.de/bus/fahrzeuge_nach45/ikarus/ikarus_260.htm
Wow!!!  :o
Thank you a lot!!! I can update now both Ikarus models. Top post updated!

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2009, 12:55:22 PM »
Hi there.

I was testing the new version of pack 128 and find some things wrong, so i thought it was time to report it, since there is a post for that :)

PMNV merchandise wagon (carry crates of goods) have an introducing date at June 1932 and a end of life December 2999. Should be 1999 i guess :D
Stats for RVG A380 are completely wrongs. Weight is not 500t but 277. The capacity is 853 in charter flights and the speed seems not good to.
Airbuses from the base pack have skin more like Antonov than Airbus, but i guess it's mainly because no guys to reskin them.
Truck Vsys tatra 813 colossus as end of life on January 1995 but we got stuff for steel that work only with him and are still available after.

Just for Zeno, planes in your pack are really good, but i don't know who as a scale issue, but your A330 are bigger thant 747 from Haru :D

Sorry for my bad English I'm not used to speak of such things about vehicles. I hope it will be some help for you.

PS: oh and no more Concorde in this version?

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 01:05:15 PM »
I'll correct airbus data and take a look to colossus date's. Thanks!
I think year 2999 is intended (like a forever value).

If you take a look on my last planes post you'll see I warn everybody my planes are no more on same scale than base pak. It is intended, and will remain that way.

The Concorde is in process... coming soon! :)

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2009, 07:38:05 PM »
For the wagon, it's slower than every avaible after 2000, carry less goods, is heavier and is more expensive at use :/
Don't really know what the point of making it avaible forever :D

Offline Zeno

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Re: PAK128 - Vechicle data correction
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2009, 07:45:59 PM »
For the wagon, it's slower than every avaible after 2000, carry less goods, is heavier and is more expensive at use :/
But it has nice side sliding doors!! ;D