Author Topic: New stations for Pak128  (Read 29841 times)

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Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2013, 01:35:29 PM »
I would also like to hear other opinions but I would personally say so. Standard height should be 2px (=40cm in my scale for buildings).
How is it in real world? Do freight and pax platforms have the same height?

One notable exception will be for early (=XIX century) train stops which will be ground level and earthen.

For freight platforms I would say 2px unless special needs, in which case they can't be taller than 4px from the ground and they should be nicely transitioned to look neat near standard ones.
2px should also be standard height for station extension basements and (again except special cases) road freight stops.


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Offline ӔO

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »
All the modern freight platforms I've seen are rail level.
The goods typically require a fork lift (goods on pallets), crane (container) or loading ramp (car and livestock)
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Offline Junna

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2013, 06:28:25 PM »
Only sundry loading docks tend to be at platform level, all others are typically on ground (rail)-level and sidings, not platforms, as AEO says.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2013, 10:29:53 PM »
Ok guys you convinced me. We might switch to ground level freight yards. I'll look into it and try to produce a template, or VS you could try it yourself if you feel like it.
I would choose a ground level concrete or asphalt yard for modern times, earthen or gravel for older eras.


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Offline Vladki

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2013, 10:41:48 PM »
Well, there are freight platforms that are double height. Maybe they are not so common nowadays but certainly were in XX. century. See here. It's a model, but shows nice comparison of cheap passenger platform (a bit lower for today standards) and freight platform.


And street loading bay should be also of this height. Just so to be on the same level as the floor in the truck or waggon.

Offline Tazze

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2013, 10:02:36 AM »
I supposed that freight platform is a thing like that:

This yard build in 1924. The left side was torn down lecently.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2013, 02:00:19 PM »
So, platform (with standard height) or yard? I think we should experiment a little and then decide.


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Offline Junna

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 02:50:04 PM »
So, platform (with standard height) or yard? I think we should experiment a little and then decide.

One of each wouldn't be bad. They usually serve different purposes.

I supposed that freight platform is a thing like that:

This yard build in 1924. The left side was torn down lecently.


Umeda goods yards in 1974. The extensive wagon-load and sundry loading facilities would all be closed within a few years, and the goods branch that served the council wholesale market and the industrial sidings in the vicinity were all regrettably closed.

Usually wagon-load docks are higher, like passenger platforms, to allow the loading by forklift and similar (this also goes for cattle loading docks), and this higher level carried on to to some extent for the container stations when wagon-load was abolished in 1982, as smaller containers tend to be handled by forklifts too. The level is not much above rail height though as far as I remember from such sites.


As seen here (though the rail connection was severed at this site sometime in the 90's for some reason.)

Offline ӔO

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 08:44:48 PM »
Truth is, with modern machinery (particularly the crane), all types of platforms can easily be adapted to suit the various needs of each type of goods. This means that there are multiple standards, unlike passenger platforms, which are quite consistent in either being low or tall.

The only difference is between loading and unloading speed, which is not simulated in standard (there is only a slight delay instead of being instant).
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Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 09:45:00 PM »


For me it's pretty final now, I'll just add some snow and commit (in the next days) so that everyone can test.

Now you can test it in r1369

Offline VS

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:22 AM »
A few points:

1) Describing current state of art is not unimportant, but most of simu-playing-time is spent in history. I have already tried to find out if freight used higher or lower platforms, no results yet though.

2) I'm no expert, but it seems intuitive that cargo which is carried as smaller "pieces" in covered wagons is loaded from platforms. Stuff that needs cranes or special loaders has no use of platforms and can use ground level. So one would separate goods platforms from wood, bulk, steel...

3) Openttd addons all have both high and low tiles for freight.

4) ...as Zeno can remember, I planned to have a standard for low (ground) level as well (never happened).

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Offline Sarlock

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2013, 03:34:24 PM »
Which probably just means that whatever you select to look the best (and is the easiest to draw) artistically will work fine :)
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Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2013, 05:01:19 PM »
I agree with Sarlock.

Hence freight stations must have:

- standard pax platform 2px tall (on one side only and ballast on the other side)

OR

- ground level yard earthen, ballast or concrete according to era and freight type

As an artist's choice based, among all, on prevalent freight type and era.




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Offline VS

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2013, 09:34:26 PM »
Duly noted.

I changed the plain tile as a starting exercise, and realized that the 2px is rather unnoticeable. Did you base the number off buildings or vehicles? You have both of these at the platform, and it looks rather weird that the truck has wheels higher than the platform... Maybe 3px could be better?

Anyway, this would be my analysis of stations (attached).
a) I'm not certain if we want to have multiple container stations?
b) And I hate my old extensions more and more. They were cool in their day, but now they're just old crap.
c) The cranes could be high or low. I don't know. Warehouses sound more like high stuff.

edit: To be brutally honest, openttd uses 3px at half tile size, and even if that is exaggerated, 2px seems a bit excessive :-/
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 09:42:33 PM by VS »

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Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2013, 09:50:25 PM »
Platform height: as I lowered all trains by 4px, so I did the platform. You suggest 3px? I don't know, I would need tests/mock ups.

Containers: they can be joined exploiting the front-middle-back parts system, giving a bit more variety.

Under standard extensions: your's the choice -- kill or reprint ;)

Cranes&c: probably the low tile, with concrete or asphalt surface, possibly with a "truck lane" along the tracks where container trucks could deliver their cargo to the crane.


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Offline sdog

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2013, 10:01:38 PM »
Closed train stop (pax), top row, leftmost image, was hardly useable in game as it is not visible if there's a train in the station or not. While the graphis seem to have a historic precedent, and are supposedly modeled very closely after it. It'd need some modifications to really be useful again.

Modern train stop (second from top, left column) has a wonderful roof. i Hope it is just converted to the new standard.

Train stop (third from top, left column) is a TTD like relic from the past before rotations. Now we'd rather build double platforms with such roofs, similar to pak.britain.

Bulk station is fine enough as road-freight extension.

The parking lot is far behind modern pak128 style, and scale. The fence always made it look awkward. A nice parking lot would be desirable, but it also ought to tile nicely and fit to fabios city streets. It'd be  better if it was deprecated.

Village and office stations ought to be removed from the platforms and made station extension buildings of their own. Afterall the new strategy is to have low capacity platforms with extensions.


Freight train stop with ramps (top row, rightmost) never made sense, as there were always ramps leading into another high platform. If it is one sided only, it makes perfect sense as a high loading platform for piece goods, or roll in containers (Like mail). Perhaps even call it piece freight platform? Make it such that the ramps and the gate are only shown at the end tiles, while the middle tiles get a railing on the non-rail side.


The new freight infrastructure images in the central pannel ought to be low.

Offline VS

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2013, 10:29:20 PM »
Hm, it does certainly sound true that trains lower 4 px = platforms lower 4 px. On the other hand it just does not look... dunno.

I'll wait more :P

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Offline Tazze

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2013, 04:30:45 AM »
Now you can test it in r1369
Hello Fabio I tested it. There are not bug and no complain.
please go on the next!! :)

Offline gauthier

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2013, 11:01:33 PM »
I was working on a complete set of stations for pak128 some months ago until I got this bug. The current version is fairly complete and was already designed to lower stations'capacity. If you want, I may share sources for pak128.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2013, 04:19:33 AM »
Wow, I would really appreciate, gauthier!


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Offline gauthier

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2013, 12:16:05 PM »
Here are the sources : https://mega.co.nz/#!Q9IXBbSI!QIuIbwxPrXyZest8WzaOqDK9SfAa3tb7o3gIKnIFGcI
And here is a pak file for who wants to test : https://mega.co.nz/#!c0IXEBwT!T_6OfnE3hRXuOjFTHjC5YRR9axN9sa7UibZVu2sC31s

(First time I use MEGA, hope it works fine ...).

EDIT : I'm likely to update these files in weeks.

Offline tonu

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2013, 10:26:04 PM »
Hi! Very nice work
I'm testing them.
In a first test I found a little bug:

I'll continue testing, now with vehicles in a map where I'm playing
Regards!

Offline Miziiik

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2013, 10:42:24 AM »
This bug is commented here
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Offline gauthier

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2013, 11:16:49 AM »
Indeed. This bug is caused by the drawing system of the game. It will disappear if you use fast forward.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2013, 08:07:48 AM »
It will also disappear if the graphics are prepared according to the suggestions in that thread  :::)
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Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2013, 02:53:07 PM »
Let me introduce you a new station!








Note: Previous station roof was slightly lowered.

Offline Sarlock

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2013, 05:33:53 PM »
Very nice!

There is a small section of lighter coloured roofing on the right side that if darkened like the rest of the roof will make multiple sections together appear less repetitive.

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Offline Tazze

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2013, 03:55:35 AM »
imitate this?

Offline Aurel-96

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2013, 06:52:30 PM »
How download that?

Offline greenling

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2014, 07:34:05 PM »
Who!
This stations looks very cool out.
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Offline HDomos

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2014, 08:54:59 PM »
Who!
This stations looks very cool out.

It is indeed looks good... When will it be available for testing?

Offline Fabio

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Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2014, 10:53:40 AM »
There is a small section of lighter coloured roofing on the right side that if darkened like the rest of the roof will make multiple sections together appear less repetitive.


It is indeed looks good... When will it be available for testing?

Glitch hopefully fixed and station available for testing in r1391.

Offline benste

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2014, 06:57:39 PM »
Hi - looks like you guys are working on some excellent improvements. Actually i can't wait seeing them and tried downloading the latest.
First i noticed there is no useable package in the nightly builds website - just a 3 months old openpak128.


Anyway, after finally finding the code at [size=78%]http://sourceforge.net/p/simutrans/code/HEAD/tree/pak128/[/size]

i installed simutrans-makeobj, and created the package. But then i do get an error when starting my simutrans ... sidewalk not found ...
anyideas on what's wrong ?


EDIT - looks like some errors slipped unnoticed when running the pakmak.py
See make object memory issue on
http://paste.ubuntu.com/6822043/[/s]


Sorry, just used the outdated makeobj from ubuntu ... had to manually add the latest.


Stations look great, can't wait them to see them in stable.
I don't know whether it's the right place, but looking at the new softslopes it still seems to be fairly hard - it's gonna make the games a lot more realistic and challenging - especially as it's now very hard to find leveled areas on the map.
With the experimental tool
* i'm missing a button to raise the soil up to the next real level.
* Some menu buttons are not drawn - only get a default slope button for the old full slopes
* Is it intended that NO mode of transport can access regular slopes? (checked rail, tram and street)
* should two soft raises in the landscape equal a full step ? - why can't i connect a bridge to a 2* 1/2 increment ? - it says can't build to center of the slope ...
* for sure i can't use regular slopes for train tracks in future, but i should be able to build bridges from it ..
* will i be able to start a bridge from a 1/2 raised area (random maps will create these areas too ! - will they only be 1/2 high or 1 high and only be able to end on equal level or +-1 ?
* e.g. in the Swiss Scenario there are existing bridges - now the default slope is only the soft slope and bridges are flat as well - even though they're still connected there is clearly something wrong ... the ramps end on 1/2 level while as the main part of the bridge still cross the rivers correctly
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 08:43:26 PM by benste »

Offline kierongreen

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2014, 09:54:47 PM »
I believe that slower roads and maybe tramsways should be able to be built on steep slopes, with railways only on shallow slopes. Bridges should be able to start from either shallow or steep slopes - but only slopes which are entirely shallow or steep (if that makes sense).

Offline HDomos

Re: New stations for Pak128
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2014, 09:08:42 PM »
Let me introduce you a new station!





Note: Previous station roof was slightly lowered.

I now tested the new stations and they are looking really looking good. A strange thing that I can't really see if a train is under them though...

One thing that as in this picture, the winter version should have also snowy ballast...