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Author Topic: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13  (Read 7140 times)

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Offline Jando

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Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« on: December 14, 2013, 12:16:50 PM »
(Poor James, he works so hard for our enjoyment - and we bugger him with questions and reports! Once again: thank you, James.)

I see another routing problem in Exp 11.13, here's a screenshot:



The train 48 (shown in the shot) just leaves Monkford Yard (a mayor regional freight hub) with destination Kingston New Station from where it will travel on to Quinting Brick Harbour. The train has loaded piece goods for his final destination Quinting Brick Harbour, but has not loaded goods for his next stop Kingston - although there's plenty of free space on the train and plenty of cargo for Kingston at Monkford Yard.

Save game uploaded to http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Routingproblem.sve

I've also seen a routing problem with another train on this save. This train travels from the freight yard at Monkford to 2 other stations. That train will only ever take cargo from Monkford to his first next stop, but never for his final second stop. (I'll edit this post with a screenshot from this train when I catched him leaving the yard.)

Edit: here's the screenshot:



Train 126 (shown in the shot) just leaves the freight yard at Monkford, to call at Catingport and Midham Industry Dock. It has loaded some goods for it's next stop at Catingport but didn't load any goods for the stop at Midham. Like in the first example, the train has free capacity and there are plenty of goods to haul to Midham Industry.

The odd thing is that the train in the first screenshot takes goods for it's final stop (but not for the intermediate) while the train in the second shot takes goods for the intermediate stop (but not for the final one). :)

Edit 2: Just remembered that I should mention that not all these multi-stop freight lines are affected. Some of them work just fine, here's a screenshot of one that takes it's cargo correctly, this time from the northern harbour Pentingford:



Train 150 takes cargo for it's first and 3rd stop in the itinary (2nd stop had no demand when the screenshot was taken).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:29:03 PM by Jando »

Offline ekhmuel

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2013, 12:44:29 PM »
I've just downloaded 11.13 myself (see "routing problem 11.12") and got this as well. I was trying to see if there was a solution to the other problem. now i can't move anything.


Also when I loaded the game (made on 11.12) ships already loaded (and in transit) refused to unload at certain stations!

Offline ekhmuel

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2013, 06:27:35 PM »
I'm wondering whether this is a pakset problem instead. Further to last post on this topic, I've noticed a number of refusals to pick things up (not occurring in 11.12 and the stable brit128pak, but does occur if you use 11.12 with the experimental 0.9.0 britpak) . It seems (for me) to affect certain vehicles and types of vehicles.

I'll also post in the pakset discussion page, but here is an example:

If you look at Renby Docks, you will see that despite the connection being ok (else no goods will move at all),  the barges will not load up, but the narrowboats will as will the ship number 8. All are going to the same end quay.

https://www.nortonzone.com/pickup/90892?key=2vXTiD_xkb1qRPqRxvhg9C4YyzcsBp-we-coCVBa5GWDYJmaZo2E0HJUaFYy-OFV&src=url


Edit; This is now posted on http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=12967.new#new
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 06:39:53 PM by ekhmuel »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 03:41:28 PM »
Jando - I cannot download your saved game. Can you re-upload it?

Edit: Ekhmuel - can you confirm that this is confined to the issue with canal boats not loading when their quays are too short, or is this a separate issue?

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 06:55:15 PM »
And here's a new saved game for this "oddity". :)

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Bugreport1215-2.sve

Here's a screeshot of the situation:



Train 48 (shown in the screenshot) has just left Monkford Yard for it's next stop Kingston New Station. It has loaded some cargo for another stop in the itinary but has left flour for Kingston New Station behind. Train has plenty of free space (and correct cars).

Edit: there are more trains (and routes) where this happens. Tell me and I will capture the other cases as well if it helps.

Edit2: there's another train (on another route) travelling between Monkford and Kingston as well. The train on the other route takes the flour to Kingston.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:07:40 PM by Jando »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 08:08:46 PM »
Ahh, you mention that there is another train that takes flour: does this train happen to be faster at taking flour to this destination? If so, that might explain the behaviour that you describe.

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 09:30:31 PM »
Same engine, same number of cars, same route.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 09:33:19 PM »
You wrote above that it was a different "route"; do you perhaps mean two different lines that take the same route between the stations in question?

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 09:38:13 PM »
You wrote above that it was a different "route"; do you perhaps mean two different lines that take the same route between the stations in question?

Correct, James.

Many of my lines ore doubled or tripled, 1 line has a train (named something KA for Keep Alive) that always travels, even when the industries have no demand, to keep the industry link "alive". The lines named bulk, piece, mixed, etc are used to run trains that carry the cargo when there's demand.

There are lines in that save, that sometime are run by 10 consists, and sometimes only the Keep Alive consist runs on that line and the other consists are used elsewhere or are in the depot.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2013, 09:50:45 PM »
Hmm - looking at this with a debugger, this issue seems to arise because the game appears to have the preferred line recorded as taking 46.4 minutes, whereas the line to which convoy no. 48 is assigned is recorded as taking 104.4 minutes for the same journey (on average in each case). This makes it (apparently) make sense for the flour (etc.) to be loaded onto the faster convoy even if it has to wait longer.

If this discrepancy is a long way off what has actually been happening in practice in this particular game, I wonder whether this is caused by the same journey time anomalies as I had noticed (occasional zero journey times) in the other thread in which you had reported a bug. It might be worthwhile to see whether the other fix (eventually) fixes this issue before looking into it again: certainly, the code for determining which convoy that goods should board appears to be working correctly.

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
Just checked my routes again - and indeed this only happens on routes when there are multiple lines serving the route and the line serves more than 2 stations. Odd, yes.

The same concept with having multiple lines between 2 stations for example is used between Monkford and Pentingford and between Monkford and Oakthorne without problems - but those are point-to-point lines.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 10:40:46 PM »
Hmm, I wonder whether the routing anomalies that were discussed in the other thread were also limited to routes with more than two stations; certainly, the route in question had three, and you may remember that the problem only occurred in the middle of them.

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 11:39:02 PM »
As a test I just deleted all other lines and trains that could "compete" with train No. 48 (and another one on the same line) and sure - now both take their cargo from Monkford Yard.

As to the middle station you mention in your last post, I also have a line that shows the same problem, but at the end of a 3-itinary stop, thus not in the middle. Oddly enough, another 4-itinary line works just fine. Perhaps the travelling time difference between competing lines is just right there.

Thanks for your effort, James. In general I believe it's just a consequence of making cargo pick the best line (in terms of time used for travelling and waiting). One has to be very careful as a player - if there is more than one route from A to B the cargo will pick what it thinks is the fastest one - but the fastest one might also be the one with the least capacity. As a consequence most of the cargo will never go from A to B cause it sits in the station waiting for a free car on the fast route while the slower trains with large capacity stay empty all the time.

Anyway, not a bug, but a design choice. Now I only need to find another way how to deal with the industry fluctuations without breaking the link between industries while there's no demand. :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 11:50:30 PM »
As stated in the previous post, this might be a combination of a feature (taking the fastest line when the fastest line is faster enough) and incorrect recording of timings, but that is not certain.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 11:58:50 PM »
Can you test whether this issue is still present in 11.14?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 12:08:54 PM »
(Or, indeed, 11.15?)

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 12:35:38 PM »
(Or, indeed, 11.15?)

Will test later, will probably report tomorrow.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 01:10:18 PM »
Thank you.

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 06:32:32 PM »
Can't really test this now in 11.15, James.

My version of 11.15 still has the bug with passengers and cargo going in the wrong direction (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=12998.msg129990#msg129990) - and since this thread about odd routings deals with multi-stop itinaries as well it's really hard to tell whether it's a consequence of the bug you already solved or another one. :)

Suggest to move this thread to the solved bugs for now and I test it again when 11.16 is around.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 07:39:29 PM »
Ahh, I see, thank you. I can't put this in the solved bug reports section until I can confirm that it is solved, but I should be very grateful for your results with testing with 11.16 when it comes out. Thank you very much for your help with this.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 01:07:08 AM »
Can you test whether this is now fixed in 11.16?

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 09:44:59 PM »
Hi James!

Sadly I still see the incorrect travel times in 11.16. I have fast-forwared the game in 11.16 for a year now - wrong travel times (amongst them also routes with 0:00 travel time) still persist. Oddly I didn't see a cargo route with travel time 0:00 though, only passenger lines.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 10:04:48 PM »
Can you give me a saved game in which this can reliably be reproduced?

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 11:16:16 PM »
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Baringstone_Fishmonger.sve

Spelstone Station and Baringstone Station both have travel times listed as 0:00.
Furhampton Station and Varllow Station both have wrong travel times that are not zero. Like for example Varllow to Furhampton (54 kms) listed as 16:18 mins and Furhampton to Varllow listed as 26:12 mins.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 01:35:45 AM »
I think that I have finally fixed this now on the 11.x branch. Thank you for the report!

Offline Jando

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2014, 04:16:31 PM »
Good job, James.

Travel times of 0:00 are gone - and it seems the wrong non-zero travel times get adjusted slowly when a train completes it's trip.

Thanks!

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Re: Routing problem in Exp. 11.13
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
Splendid!