Minor gripe about private cars ad loading bays

[zook2]

It's not a big issue, but if I build a multi-stop road loading-bay (and a choose sign), a single private car trying to enter one of the bays can mess up the entire operation if it tries to enter a bay where a convoi is just waiting for 100% load. Since it can take months for the next ship to arrive, the bay is blocked, which is why I built the multi-stop in the first place - some can load, others can wait. But then this private vehicle will block the road for that period and every bay that is beyond that point:

    C           (B)  B  B  B
-------------------------
(   TJ   )      P
-------------------------
                  B   B  B  B

C = Choose Sign
B = Loading Bay
(B) = Bay which P is trying to get into
P = Private vehicle
TJ = Traffic Jam

I'm in 1871 and there are no road sign available to keep the little pests out of my dock area, so, sooner or later, the traffic jam is going to happen. I don't think this is intended behavior or particularly realistic , so maybe it's better to prevent private vehicles from entering loading bays?

[jamespetts]

Hmm - it is difficult to visualise what you mean from the ASCII art - can you upload a screenshot so that I can understand what is occurring a little more clearly? Thank you!

[Sarlock]

I understand... and yes, private cars can really muddle up your loading bays when they do this.

I would suggest redesigning your loading area so that private cars can travel through the area rather than get stuck waiting for a truck to be filled and leave the station.

                                        Bay   Bay   Bay   Bay
===Road===Choose Sign=================>
                                        Bay   Bay   Bay   Bay

The car won't go in to a dead-end bay, if you're using loading bays, and will bypass the station and carry on through.  Best not to make the loading area a dead-end, however, otherwise the private car will come back through again after it turns around.

You can also use the private road gates to restrict traffic to just your own vehicles - private vehicles will turn around and not enter the loading bay.  Different paksets make these gates available at different times.

[zook2]

Here's my loading bay; it's a headache. It services five different lines, most of which experience 100%-load waiting times of weeks or months until the next ship unloads.

Since making the screenshot, I've redesigned the area to avoid the dead-end, like Sarlock suggested. That seems to have  taken care of the private car problem - thanks!

But then another problem is a truck loading at a tram/bus stop connected to the port. With a 100%-load order, it blocks the bus line for months.

Also, I have a problem with some vehicles recognizing the Choose Sign and some apparently not. Does it have to be on the right hand side of the entrance road (i.e. where it is now) or the left-hand side? When is the sign "activated" - when the vehicle passes the tile the sign is on, or is the vehicle "looking ahead"?

[jamespetts]

As to your original problem - are you including the road along the centre as part of your "loading bay"? If so, the game has no way of knowing what is a "loading bay" within your expanded definition and what is not, so Sarlock's solution seems to be the sensible one here. Alternatively, I should be interested in views on an earlier no entry sign (and what it might look like, as the current sign is based on a design from the 1960s).

The second issue relating to choose signs: from what I remember, the sign must be facing forwards (you should be able to tell by looking at the graphic which is the front and which the back of the sign) and the vehicle must pass it for it to be effective. This part of the code is unchanged from Standard. It is curious that your goods vehicle is unloading in the 'bus stop.

However, since none of these issues are exclusive to Experimental, I am about to move this to the "help centre" subforum so that this can be discussed a little more widely.

[zook2]

(I'm using Experimental 11.3 and Pak128 Britain Exp.)

Thanks. Unfortunately, the road Choose Sign available in 1871 looks the same to me from all directions. But I think now it has to be on the right-hand side to work properly.

(By the way, I can't tell which code issues are exclusive to Experimental, that's why I'm posting them on that board first)

[jamespetts]

Ahh, yes, that signpost is not one where it is easy to tell one way from the other. Hmm. Ideally in Pak128.Britain, the signs should be on the left (as we drive on the left), and there is now an option in the code to allow this, but this has not been implemented as it would require re-drawing all of the signals and non-symmetrical signs. Once that is done, the orientation (being on the left) should make it easy t o tell.

And don't worry about posting in the Experimental forum if you don't know what is and is not common with Standard; I can easily move the posts, as here, if necessary.

[Ters]

In my experience, private cars get stuck in loading bay areas if there is a junction where all but one exits, which is where the private car enters the junction, lead directly into a loading bay. Adding a single road, straight or curved, between the innermost junction, or junctions if the area features multiple branches, and one of the loading bays attached to that junction solves the problem. Private cars will turn around when encountering an occupied loading bay as long as the car is on a normal (not junction) road tile.

[wlindley]

it would require re-drawing all of the signals and non-symmetrical signs.

Instead of redrawing: Can't you simply use the ,x,y offsets like with FrontImage/BackImage?  In roadsign.dat for example, change to:

Code Select Expand

image[0]=roadsign.3.0,-10,-5

[jamespetts]

Ahh, that would probably work for this particular sign, which is symmetrical, but would not work for railway signals, for example, whose arms would be on the wrong side of the poles for left hand side operation.

[greenling]

Hello Jamespetts
Zook2 Do miss a choose sign with a sign that no allow private car drive in.
I can me remember that timothy have make so a sign.

[jamespetts]

Is it possible to combine signs in that way? An interesting idea - but what would such a sign look like in early eras especially?

[Ters]

Even with a private road sign, I think city cars may still spawn inside the loading bay area. But this is quite unlikely compared to the possibility that city cars at some point of their journey enter such a place.

Is it possible to combine signs in that way?

The game can certainly encode such a combination, but as for whether the game checks all flags or stops after processing the first, well, you should be able to read the code as well as I if nobody knows it by heart.

what would such a sign look like in early eras especially?

It wouldn't be so much a sign as a gate. Likely with the name of the factory or station inscribed over it.

[jamespetts]

Interesting thoughts.  Hmm.

[ӔO]

I've seen and used combined signs before.
I think they were from here: http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/03485.0/

I think they worked fine when I used them.

[greenling]

Hello Aeo
Yes those Sign have mean.

[zook2]

In my game (Pak128 BritEx) it's only 1875 and no private road signs are available. If they were, I'd probably plaster half the city with them.

[Ters]

If they were, I'd probably plaster half the city with them.

Sounds much easier to just turn city cars off then.

[Drewthegreat87]

I get this problem quite a bit... One solution that has semi-worked for me is to put the private road barriers up on entrance ways to the goods docks and deny access to the public player. It really only works best if I can split the goods docks off from or away from city areas, because once development gets there, then the barriers don't work as well. One way to fix that is to use the "No entry" signs to block side roads from which the cars could sneak in. Used in conjunction with one way signs, it's semi-alright at preventing all those "private cars" from getting into the bays or in the intersections. If there could be a way to make a combined choose signal/limited access sign, that would be a godsend!

Example: (hopefully understandable...if not, I'll supply a screenshot if requested)
< or > direction of traffic
P = private road barrier
C = Choose signal
G = Goods Dock
O = Oneway
                               G  G  G
O>>>>>P>>>>C>>>>>>>>>>>P>>O
                               G  G  G

[Ters]

                               G  G  G
O>>>>>P>>>>C>>>>>>>>>>>P>>O
                               G  G  G

In such a layout, city cars shouldn't get stuck even without the private road signs. They only get stuck at dead ends.