Author Topic: pak128.Britain scale problems  (Read 23651 times)

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Offline The Hood

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 01:59:47 PM »
Probably worth seeing what it looks like in separate segments.

Offline The Hood

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 05:01:56 PM »
Trying to rescale these but kierongreen I'm not sure how you're converting from lengths in m to lengths in the simutrans length parameter. I'm doing 16*length(m)/30 - 16 parameters per tile and 30m per tile... I get NET tram of 33m = 17.6 (round up to 18) and Blackpool 32.3m = 17.2 (round to 17)

Offline kierongreen

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2014, 07:21:22 PM »
I was using MK1 lengths - that's 28m per tile. Therefore NET (33m) = 18.9 (round up to 19) and Blackpool 32.3 = 18.46 (round down to 18). There isn't information on how long individual segments are, so I've given reasonable values based on photographs and what would combine to give prototypical lengths.

As I said, trams are a bit of an exception as a few simple 2 segment units seem to be just over 28m. These would be difficult to balance if they required 2 tiles so I thought it would be better shrinking these slightly to fit into 1 tile. With articulated units with more than 2 segments players generally have the option as to how long the trams should be - therefore they should be to scale with the rest of the pakset. The slight difference in scale lengths won't be that visually noticeable I think. There is a potential economic distortion of favouring 2 segments over 3 or more, however this could be countered by slightly reducing the capacity of 2 segment units (make it 28/30=93% of prototypes?).

2 segment units that would require slightly altered scales are Croydon CR4000 (30m) and Manchester T-68 (29m).

2 segment units that would already be the correct scale are Manchester M5000 (28m), Birmingham T-69 (24.4m), Tyne and Wear Metro (24m) and DLR (28m).

Offline The Hood

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2014, 07:27:00 PM »
That makes sense now - 28m per tile rather than 30 as I was using.


EDIT: Just redone the Flexity 2 as 5 vehicles 4+4+2+4+4. Works rather well. Have coded it so 7-car (and indeed 9,11,13 etc car) variants are available as indeed used in Europe.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:11:33 PM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2014, 11:23:55 AM »
EDIT: Just redone the Flexity 2 as 5 vehicles 4+4+2+4+4. Works rather well. Have coded it so 7-car (and indeed 9,11,13 etc car) variants are available as indeed used in Europe.

Interesting!
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Offline kierongreen

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2014, 01:05:41 PM »
Excellent :)

Offline Ves

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2014, 08:23:55 PM »
Excuse me for jumping in this thread, but the statement made on the first page in this thread......
Quote
If you try and make railways and roads the same scale then either trains will end up very long with lots of clipping errors,
...... leaves me wondering:

What kind of clipping errors are you refering to? Train getting outside the 128x128square in the PNG, or is it something else?
Just asking for reference.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2014, 08:39:25 PM »
I am doing some work re-scaling the earlier steam locomotives. Data for the very early locomotives being hard to come by, I used the information about the Hackworth locomotive and applied it to the Patentee as The Hood did earlier, noting scale factors of 0.6y, extrapolating that to 0.6z on the assumption that the y and z dimensions were already in correct proportion to each other, and, assuming an 8ft width over frames in these earlier locomotives and multiplying by the factor of 1.25, 0.89x. I have then been using the same scale factors for the other very early locomotives for which no specific data are available, but I seem to be missing a few .blends. They might well be in a .zip file at home somewhere, so I will check that, but currently, I have noted the following missing from the repository:

* SDR 1001 (inc. tender)
* LMR Rocket (inc. tener)
* LMR Lion (inc. tender)
* LMR Patentee tender
* Puffing Billy tender
* SDR Locomotion (inc. tender)
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Offline The Hood

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2014, 09:23:15 PM »
Just added them to my GitHub blends repository.

For info:
- SDR 1001 Tender can't find blend. It's the same as the LNWR DX Goods but recoloured, so easy enough to replicate.
- LMR Lion, Patentee both use same tender graphics as LMR Planet
- Puffing Billy Tender is the same as SDR tender (I think, may need recolouring or swapping back to front?)

Hope that helps.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2014, 07:35:56 PM »
Thank you for these - working on this now. When you refer to the "SDR tender", do you mean the SDR 1001 tender, which is the same as the DX Goods tender, which in turn is the same as the LNWR Bloomer tender (in each case, bar livery)?
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Offline The Hood

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2014, 12:12:08 PM »
Sorry meant SDR Locomotion tender. Brain was frazzed when I wrote that!

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2014, 12:19:12 PM »
Ahh, yes, I had proceeded upon that assumption. Thank you for the clarification!
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2015, 10:46:24 PM »
I have been working recently on re-scaling quite a number of pre-grouping railway locomotives and carriages which were too wide/high (and, occasionally, too short/long) even taking into account needing to be scaled 1.25 in width and height compared to length, and the results I have been posting to my Github repository. I shall not enumerate every one on this thread to avoid clogging it up, but the Github commits should be self-explanatory. I recommend that these changes be applied to Standard, too, as they are just as relevant there as here. I still have a few more to do (1870s 4 wheelers, Midland and LBSCR carriages of the 1880s-1900s and some miscellaneous locomotives), so watch out for furhter Github commits. Also, although I have not measured yet, I suspect by look that many of the early railway wagons are likewise too large and will need reducing in scale to match the locomotives and carriages of the pre-grouping era.
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Offline kierongreen

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2015, 11:23:35 PM »
Only thing I'd say is with some of the earlier vehicles there's the danger of them becoming so small to be unrecognisable.... It's a difficult balance to get right.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2015, 09:18:50 AM »
I don't think that any of them are unrecognisable at their correct scale, and we already standardised on a model of applying the same scale to all vehicles except those over 15m in length over 18 months ago. What always looks particularly bad is different vehicles of adjoining eras being out of scale in comparison to one another; you will recall, no doubt, that the inconsistency of scale was discovered and became a problem after I added a great many more early railway vehicles to fill out the early time-line, creating a smoother continuum of vehicles making such disparities in scale much more noticeable.
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Offline Junna

Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2015, 10:50:03 PM »
Goods vehicles would surely need rescaling as well? Well, goods vehicles ought really be expanded and improved upon in general, too. Times at which they become available are largely arbitrary and variation is very limited. One wishes that Simutrans had some of that feature - as in OTTD - where a certain vehicle might have a randomised livery and slight variation in appearance. That would be wonderful for goods wagons.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: pak128.Britain scale problems
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2015, 11:23:12 PM »
Re-scaling early goods vehicles and adding variety to them is on my very long list of things that need doing. If you'd like to accelerate that process, as I know that you're handy with Blender, that would be very gratefully received. I assume that you have access to the Blender scale ruler .dae used for scaling? If research is a problem, I could lend some assistance with that much more quickly than I could actually produce the vehicles themselves.
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