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Author Topic: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1  (Read 218006 times)

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Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #210 on: February 21, 2014, 07:50:46 PM »
^
Is that 1200 total or 1200x and 1200y ?(i.e. how are diagonals dealt with?)



Am on a 32bit operating system, so I believe that means this isn't possible.

1200 total.

If the route is dead straight, you can even go up to 1500.

The more bends there are, the shorter this number is.

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #211 on: February 21, 2014, 08:01:34 PM »
Understood, thanks. :D

I still can't join the server game, assume from the above everyone else is having similar issues...

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #212 on: February 21, 2014, 08:23:44 PM »
Yup, after about 10 attempts today, the best I could do was about 5 minutes and no actions, just watching.  If I try to do anything it's almost a guaranteed desynch.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #213 on: February 22, 2014, 01:19:02 AM »
I am sorry for the difficulties: it seems that the game cannot cope with the restriction being lifted on the routing algorithm. I will work on releasing a revised version with the old limit reinstated soon. Thank you all for your patience.

Offline TurfIt

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #214 on: February 22, 2014, 01:29:07 AM »
You might want to try pulling in r7000 from Standard... CHG: use faster route search for ships (jump-point search)

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #215 on: February 22, 2014, 01:35:27 AM »
Ahh, thank you. That is already merged in for the next major release, I think, so it is probably easier to leave it there than try to backport it manually to the 11.x branch; but Experimental users will get the benefit of this in due course.

Out of interest, how much of a difference does it make?

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #216 on: February 22, 2014, 09:42:23 AM »
I am sorry for the difficulties: it seems that the game cannot cope with the restriction being lifted on the routing algorithm. I will work on releasing a revised version with the old limit reinstated soon. Thank you all for your patience.

No worries James, these things happen, it's all in the name of progress after all :)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 12:10:17 AM by AP »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #217 on: February 22, 2014, 03:48:20 PM »
Testing the 112.5-merge branch as against the current 11.x branch for performance with the server game in April 1779, in a non-optimised debug build, I get 0.34x speed in fast forward mode on the 112.5-merge branch and 0.22x on the 11.x branch. On the 112.5-merge branch, once the game has loaded, it is a little sluggish, but performance is just about acceptable. On the 11.x branch, the game is quite unresponsive, with a delay of about two seconds between action and response for something such as clicking on a building tile.

Note that these are both unoptimised debug builds, and optimised release builds will perform much more quickly: however, the relative difference between the two gives some idea of the difference in performance of the current code and the code on the 112.5-merge branch, both as a result of the improved ship routing algorithm and Bernd Gabriel's recent work to improve performance.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #218 on: February 22, 2014, 05:27:39 PM »
Just return the routing maximum back to what we had before, we had learned to live with it by putting in multiple waypoints.  Certainly helps the performance.  It will matter increasingly as the game moves on and we double, triple and beyond the number of convoys already in motion.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #219 on: February 22, 2014, 05:38:32 PM »
Yes, that is the plan: I have already reverted the change on the 11.x branch. I am seeing whether I can fix another bug or two in the next release while I am working on the 11.x branch.

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #220 on: February 23, 2014, 12:48:49 AM »
Server now upgraded to 11.20, with the routing depth limits reinstated, which has solved the performance problem as far as I can tell from my brief tests.

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #221 on: February 23, 2014, 02:02:23 AM »
Is it just me, or does it seem like the ships that reach the end of their schedule will attempt to go to 1 instead of reversing route?

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #222 on: February 23, 2014, 02:53:43 AM »
Woah... something really nasty is going on with my ships.  They're all failing on route and being sent to depot.  I tried intercepting a few and they're picking really odd points on their schedules, leaving the dock and selecting a point in the schedule several points ahead and then failing to find a route and going to depot.  When I try to open their schedule and send them to their next waypoint on the list, then close the schedule, the ship still wants to go to its original selection and fails again... I can't seem to override it.  Thus, all of my convoys are going to depot and there's nothing I can do to stop it  :-[

Ack!  This is a complete disaster!

EDIT  I think I've figured out.  Waypoint distances are super small now, almost everything is failing unless your waypoints are less than 300 tiles apart, it seems.  Every single one of my lines/convoys is failing and going to depot...

EDIT 2  I figured out why I couldn't change schedule.  With the 5-10 second lag, you have to select a schedule change, close the schedule and then wait for 5-10 seconds before you start the convoy or it will revert back to its previous setting.  Very slow.  Can only do this in a depot, I can't do this to a convoy once it fails to find a route.  Have to wait for the ships to fail in pathfinding, then revert to depot, then send them out again.  I hope... going to take hours.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 03:19:52 AM by Sarlock »

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #223 on: February 23, 2014, 03:19:48 AM »
probably best to build several docks for the long distance ships so that they can route through a shipping lane that is known to work.

I am sure the lag will go away once all the ships stop trying to go to depot.

I remember the lag being quite bad when the replacer was used en-mass, so this lag is probably due to the same reason.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #224 on: February 23, 2014, 04:11:31 AM »
I've been frantically trying to get all of my convoys back on track but it seems that the waypoint spread on routes is much smaller than it was previously and even routes that were closer together and didn't require waypoints are now failing as well.  Add to that desynchs every 5-10 minutes and it has been a frustrating exercise  :P.  Without adding dozens of new waypoints to every single line, pretty much all of my convoys will fail and go to depot.  Seems to need waypoints that are less than 300+/- tiles apart... which would require 20+ waypoints for a trip across the map, 40-50 or more for a round-trip.

Is it possible to return the value to what it was previously and revert the save game?

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #225 on: February 23, 2014, 09:22:39 AM »
I logged into the game out of morbid curiosity - the seas are almost totally empty.  :o

Is it possible to return the value to what it was previously and revert the save game?

I agree. Its hours of pain to try and get all the ships back on route manually.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #226 on: February 24, 2014, 11:42:56 PM »
Apologies everyone for the trouble with this. I have now been able to track down the bugs causing these difficulties and have fixed them on the 11.x branch. Before I deploy the release, I should be interested in people's views on what is best to do. I have some saved games locally from April 1779 that I could set onto the server, thus reverting some of the difficulties recently with the ships, or, if anyone has a later version before the difficulties, I could use that (and, in the process, manually increase the maximum number of routing steps slightly to see whether that helps a little with reducing the number of waypoints needed for ships). Alternatively, I could leave the game as it is if people have managed to make it work satisfactorily in the current condition and do not want to lose any progress.

Please let me know - thank you.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #227 on: February 25, 2014, 04:42:39 AM »
I've been able to salvage my passenger and mail network and have it running fine currently but all of my freight lines are all suspended currently.  It's pretty easy to send all those ships back out in to the network again once the waypoint distances work again and within a year have everything back to normal, so I'd be okay with either option you choose.  Losing a couple years of profits isn't likely to hurt anyone in this early stage of the game.  It was a nice chance to see what my passenger/mail network made just by itself (6 million/year, which surprised me!).

No apologies necessary, I think we're all aware that this is primarily for testing purposes... I am happy to be one of the test subjects.  :)

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #228 on: February 25, 2014, 07:55:34 AM »
I'm not worried about the profits either.

Do we think the lag issue should also be resolved? If so, redeploying the ships on existing routes shouldn't take too long.

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #229 on: February 25, 2014, 11:57:41 AM »
Splendid, thank you both for your feedback. In that case, when I get a chance later, I will update to 11.21 and leave the current saved game intact. Apologies again for the difficulties.

As to the lag, although I cannot be sure, because the bug that I found over the week-end was one which made the pathfinding for vehicles much less efficient, fixing it could well fix ongoing lag issues.

Also, I am planning to make a further change before I release 11.21 which should make things easier for users of ships: I plan to disable the automatic sending to depot of convoys on open water with no route. The idea of the automatic sending to depot of such convoys was to avoid convoys with no route (for example, as a result of the withdrawal of access rights) blocking other convoys in a multi-player game when the player whose convoys were in a "no route" state might not be online for real time hours or days. With ships on open water, this is not an issue, since, on open water, ships do not block other ships. (Things will be different on canals and rivers from the next major version, which is why I am confining this to ships on open water; aircraft, whilst they do not block other aircraft, should also return to the hangar, as it makes no sense for aircraft to be suspended indefinitely in mid-air).

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #230 on: February 25, 2014, 05:59:26 PM »
yes, I don't mind having to resend out ship, as long as most of them work fine with their current schedules.

It's pretty easy to find the convoys in depot if you use the convoy list with filter enabled.

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #231 on: February 26, 2014, 01:32:53 AM »
Thank you all for your feedback. Now updated with 11.21. Please let me know how this works out for people - sorry for the problems.

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #232 on: February 26, 2014, 03:37:10 AM »
Looks like the previous routes are working fine.

I added many nav markers anyways, since this makes it more like a shipping lane and because it is easier to find the waypoints.

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #233 on: February 26, 2014, 10:02:15 PM »
Server is down? Not been able to connect since 7pm ish (GMT)

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #234 on: February 26, 2014, 11:16:31 PM »
looks okay from here.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #235 on: February 26, 2014, 11:17:27 PM »
Hmm - I am able to get in. Perhaps other people have been connecting when you tried?

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #236 on: February 26, 2014, 11:21:58 PM »
AP, make sure to install the latest 11.21.

Offline AP

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #237 on: February 26, 2014, 11:58:54 PM »
I am on 11.21. I'm back on now. It just kept giving "no response from server". Odd.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #238 on: February 27, 2014, 12:08:59 AM »
Curious.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #239 on: February 27, 2014, 12:33:09 AM »
Sometimes you get that if someone else just logged on.  With the large file size now, it takes a good 5 minutes or more for someone to log in to the game, during which time no one else can log in until the new player is all set up and connected.

Working fine for me, I put over 1,000 ships in motion today and they seem to be doing what they're supposed to do.

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #240 on: February 27, 2014, 12:46:12 AM »
Sarlock, is ship 2261 going in circles outside of Monkington from a previous test?

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #241 on: February 27, 2014, 01:07:04 AM »
Oh, haha, yes, that was a test from a few days ago that I forgot to remove.

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #242 on: February 27, 2014, 01:38:11 AM »
I thought so, lol.

It sure is pretty easy to lose things or forget about projects on a large map.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #243 on: February 27, 2014, 08:00:55 AM »
Tried about 10 times tonight to connect and couldn't stay connected for longer than a minute or so at the longest.  Most were instant desynchs within 5 seconds of the clock starting to run after loading.

Is the long delay between map loading/transferring and the clock ticking a data transfer period?  It takes around 5 minutes or more between when the transfer completes and the clock starts to move.

The clock is rather "jerky" in that it freezes up for a few seconds, then bursts ahead again.  It does this in offline play as well though not quite as pronounced (fast forward jumps between 7x and 13x, back and forth).  It may be related to there being over 3,000 convoys in motion and the amount of calculation required.  I suspect that it is this that is causing the frequent desynchs.  It was fine earlier but that was because over 1,000 of the 3,000 convoys were in depot.  After we sent them all back out the game because quite lagged again and the desynchs returned.

I haven't played a large map in Standard so I can't compare, to tell if this is unique to Experimental online play.

Is anyone else experiencing frequent desynchs?

Offline ӔO

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Re: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1
« Reply #244 on: February 27, 2014, 10:12:53 AM »
it is a bit jerky now, but i only noticed it after seeing a few ships get stuck.

i can stay connected for a while, but i also have a much faster connection 1mb/s, so it takes less than 30s to load the game.