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Author Topic: Please nerf cargo planes.  (Read 5310 times)

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Offline benjad

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Please nerf cargo planes.
« on: January 28, 2014, 12:48:15 AM »
Hi all.

In the development of PAK128, please consider nerfing cargo planes...  badly.  Flying cotton/wool across the map in any game is basically an instant win in any online game. 

Many thanks.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2014, 03:31:18 AM »
I think airplane costs in general in pak128 need a balancing pass - the profits are much too high, operating costs should increase significantly.  We could also significantly increase the operating cost of the airport infrastructure too.  I'll take a deeper look.

Offline el_slapper

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2014, 08:19:47 AM »
(note : I'll speak only about passenger - I never went airborne for cargo)

I don't think airport fares are the problem. The more you advance in time, the more planes do make money for the same line. a fleet of DC3 will yield reasonable amounts of money, while a single 707 can milk it purchasing cost in one single year. Increasing airport costs would banish early planes use, while just scratching later profits.

Until arrival of the Constellation(1943, I think), Airplanes don't seem like cheating to me. They have a quick ROI, but are limited to small amounts of money anyways, & require complex airport design for heavy use. Constellation begins to be gamey, 707 of 1957 is pure cheat. Concorde is a special case, IIRC, it has a  3 1/2 years of ROI

I have no simple solution. Still on the 707, if it flies at 45%, it will cost you tremendous amounts of money. At 60%, ROI is OK. At 85%(something I can usually achieve with careful planning & feeding), it's gushing cash.

It seems to me that slower airplanes are not problematic, as the total amount of cash they bring is rather small, & very fast airplanes are so costly to buy that their insane income is balanced by insane purchasing cost. The problem is for Mach0.9 airplanes, all the modern jets. They are game breakers because they accumulate 3 advantages that taken alone, are not so problematic :
(1)very weak infrastructure costs
(2)very quick ROI(usually around 1 year when design is nearing optimal)
(3)very important absolute amount of money

(1) is not a problem in itself because it can be balanced by exploitation costs. Trucks on public roads are not really cheated, it seems to me. They are efficient, but not an absolute weapon. By far.
(2) is not a problem for early/slow planes, as the Rohrbach. Sure those lines are helpful, but the airports are quickly buried deep under the flow of waiting airplanes.
(3) is not a problem for the Concorde. It is so costly to buy that buying one is a kind of final achievement. And ROI is not that impressive. You will make colossal amounts of money, but those will arrive deserved.

The problem for Boeing/Airbus airplanes is that they accumulate 1, 2 & 3 without any drawbacks. They are slightly costly to buy, but, as soon as you have some network, you can afford one. And the game is over.

IMHO, the operating costs shall not move up to 400km/h, be increased by 2% each 50 km/h up to 1000 km/h, and above, slowly go back to normal. So the constellation would have 6% more operating costs, & the 707 20%. Not nerfing every fast vehicles seems important to me. Very fast trains, like the Concorde, are plagued with prohibitive building costs for very weak capacity, and therefore are not really unbalanced, despite they impressive income per passenger. The problem lies just below. The optimal speed is a little bit too "optimal".

Offline Zeno

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2014, 08:55:25 AM »
Agree. Planes need either a new balancing "formula" or a manual balancing. Bonus speeds are so high that a minimum variation has a huge impact on automatic balancing, thus it has proven to be rather uneffective when I tried in the past.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2014, 03:35:55 PM »
Indeed, it's a tricky thing to address.  I think that a manual balancing of just that batch of offending aircraft is the best course of action.  For the most part the overall balancing formulae works for the majority of vehicles.  Increasing the operating cost of the faster airplanes (excluding the Concorde, which is limited because its capacity is much lower) would probably assist greatly.  It is easy to get these planes operating at 80%+ capacity in a modern game/network which makes them extremely profitable.  We could play with making the break-even point on these aircraft closer to the 70% mark and see how that affects things.

Offline prissi

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2014, 04:31:31 PM »
In pak64, I aimed for 75% fill level before becoming profitable. This is not a problem for earlier planes, as they are so small.

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 04:54:55 PM »
I see most passenger planes in pak64 become profitable with 30-50% fill at introduction date, and 95+% fill required by retirement. Several become unprofitable at 100% several years before retirement. The concorde is the exception requiring 85% at intro, and 94% at retirement. Note: last data I have in my spreadsheet is from r419, so quite old.

For pak128 - latest in my sheet is r200, the planes all seem to become profitable at 50% fill when introduced. At retirement, it's all over the place with many needing >100%, and some like the 757 still profitable at retirement with only 60% on board. It looks to me like the speedbonus speed at retirement wasn't included in the calculation... or else it's a very weird calculation!

Offline benjad

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2014, 11:29:43 PM »
I don't want to stray too far from the original idea :D . I am relatively happy with plane income inside of  'pax and mail', you at least have to build up a network to generate things to move... that effort costs money and effort to set up.  But the cargo planes are just way out of proportion, and take almost no effort to set up at all.  [but is it the same with plastic, paper, furniture, books, glass, electronics...?]  Why aren't cotton and wool farm products? 

(Although honestly, being able to take cotton in and carry textiles out on same vehicle is advantageous). 

I don't want to introduce a new category (128 has lots already).. but flying wool and cotton 1/2 way across the planet for profit is so unrealistic to start with, and worse off right now it is highly profitable. 

Offline paichtis

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 01:13:27 AM »
I do agree cargo planes in pak128 are wayyyyyyy too profitable. Especially when you setup your routes in such a way that the planes are filled back and forth (wich is so very easy with coton and wool)

In comparison the PAX and mail planes seem more or less fine.

Offline PkK

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 12:45:15 PM »
How about implementing airport security? Passengers / cargo need to spend a minimum waiting time at airports before they are allowed on a plane. This waiting time increases with the game year. It should be taken into account when calculating the bonus, so no matter how fast the plane is, the speed is capped by the influence of the waiting time.

Philipp

Offline Zeno

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Re: Please nerf cargo planes.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 03:19:37 PM »
I do agree cargo planes in pak128 are wayyyyyyy too profitable. Especially when you setup your routes in such a way that the planes are filled back and forth (wich is so very easy with coton and wool)

In comparison the PAX and mail planes seem more or less fine.
Passenger and mail airplanes are balanced to be running 85% of their capacity at any time, as well suggests prissi.
Cargo planes are balanced to be running at 50% their capacity though. That's why it's easier to make them rentable if you manage to make them return back with some kind of cargo loaded.