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Author Topic: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked  (Read 4936 times)

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romonito

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after building the rail station, I installed the tram tracks. On some points it crosses the rails. Now the train is blocked.
Possibel reason: the axe load?

But why I cant override the tram tracks with the rails again on the crossing point? (Even with CTRL)

Bug or lack of knowledge?

thanx for answers!

(Playing with Pak128.Britain-Ex-0.9.1)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 10:46:36 PM »
Hello, and welcome to the forums, and also to Experimental. May I ask - is this behaviour different in Experimental and Standard?

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 06:36:40 AM »
Press b to see the occupied blocks of track. Tram tracks get connected with train track on crossing even if the graphics do not look like it. The tram or train could take a sharp turn and run on the wrong track, at least in standard. So it might be that the track is just reserved by a tram. Signals might help.

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romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 08:32:36 AM »
thank you for the answers...

@vladiki
the track wasnt electrified yet, so no tram blocked the track. The rail isnt electrified also: No gap there can cause the blocking of the train.

@jamespetts
Thank you for the welcome, i was as a guest here since years :-) Only registered in the german forum. But with experimental ....
In ST it worked. The crossing tile will also report the tram track and not the rails, but it will not block the rail.

I tried in Ex.  even the the heavy tram track with 18t axle load....

By the way, i like Ex more than ST, because its mujch more "sophisticated" :-)



Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 09:49:45 AM »
May I ask what exactly is the behaviour of this in Standard that you have observed?

I should note that an at-grade crossing of a tram and railway track in Simutrans will always produce a junction. If the tramway is over a road, then this will mean that there cannot be a rail tile there, as a railway can only cross a road at right angles, and the junction entails it also running parallel with the road on the same tile.

romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 06:34:10 PM »
you're right, that the grafical behaviour of ST and Ex is the same.
I understand, that the tram is part of the street and the consequences.
And I knew, there is a junction btw. rail and tram.

But I dont understand, that the crossing of a rail with a tramtrack blocks the train.
Thats not the case in ST.

My solution: I built bridges an tunnels ...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 07:10:16 PM »
The reason that it is different in Experimental is simply because Standard does not have a concept of axle load: it will not block heavier trains in Standard because those trains could simply run on the tram tracks in any event; and there is the additional issue in Experimental of way constraints permitting only trams to run on tram tracks.

romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2014, 07:22:15 PM »
and what is your solution?
You will join me building tunnels and bridges?

Normally a tramtrack is not able to work with similiar loads like rails.
So there are not such "heavy tram tracks, shure.

thankx for your answer...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 07:39:33 PM »
In reality, it was rare for there to be an at grade crossing for railways and trams, so, yes, bridges and tunnels are to be recommended, I think.

romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 08:06:10 PM »
yes, I know it from some harbours in germany.
But: Tunnels and bridgtes need  more space ...

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 08:43:20 PM »
Heavy tram tracks are a reality, as well as grade crossings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVvMFsfZU6Y (Olomouc, CZ)

http://www.vlaky.net/zeleznice/spravy/001094-Co-je-to-za-salinu/ (Text is czech, but fotos are for everybody. The track goes to trade fairs exibition center.)





Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2014, 09:03:14 PM »
There are heavy grade tram tracks in Pak128.Britain-Ex suitable for trains.

romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 12:39:20 AM »
@Vladki I like this pictures, remembers me, that I often was in CZ earlier

@jamespetts
the "heavy" tramtracks have 18t, thats nothing. That leaves you only the less weight rails ...
The three heavier rails of Britain Pack have more. That means too much.

Thats the main reason for the bad functionality with grade crossings.
Because for half a way modern rail you need more...
I use 20t for rails.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 09:06:32 AM »
Altering this behaviour would require quite a major rewrite of how tram tracks and rails interact with each other, which I am afraid is not practical in the short term given limited coding resources. I shall bear in mind that this is an issue, however.

romonito

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 09:50:57 AM »
thats clear, I know the "black holes" of coding :-)

Its also sensless to differ to much from standard....

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2014, 12:17:34 PM »
Wait modern trams can run on modern tram track before 2014? I think you need to check your data sources as this clearly is not the case in the UK. The costs are also wrong.
At 2007 tram tracks should cost £40,000,000 per km (based on real UK figures assuming 1/3 was infrastructure like stops). The only trains capable of running on this tram track should be introduced in 2014.

Personally I think the problem with experimental is that it strives too much to obtain "what did exist" and not "what could have existed". In real life coaches and trains are designed for purpose based on the requirements of the railway. In Experimental we are forced to use the solutions to real-life railways and not to our requirements. This is best seen with railway coaches where they have strict break carriage positions purely because in real life they were used in such a way. Or that you are forced to mix passengers or mail with passenger rated food because no food only break coaches existed in real life yet could have easily existed if the need required.

Even if tram tracks crossing train tracks never existed in real life, they still could exist.

Offline Junna

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2014, 05:35:06 PM »
At 2007 tram tracks should cost £40,000,000 per km (based on real UK figures assuming 1/3 was infrastructure like stops). The only trains capable of running on this tram track should be introduced in 2014.

Are we modelling inflation? Also, costs are depending on a lot of factors that come into play which are not simulated, so it might not always be very sound to incorporated real-world costs, particularly for infrastructure.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2014, 06:38:32 PM »
Quote
Are we modelling inflation? Also, costs are depending on a lot of factors that come into play which are not simulated, so it might not always be very sound to incorporated real-world costs, particularly for infrastructure.
I am sorry but you clearly are not aware of the history behind the Edinburgh (a place in Scotland, which is part of the United Kingdom) tram system. For 14 km of tram track, the cost has well exceeded £1 billion (now is closer to £2 billion). Construction of the tram system took 5 years (starting in 2007), including having to re-lay all the track because they engineered it so poorly that a reasonably cold winter (still warmer than in Switzerland or Germany, both of which have no problems with tram systems) resulted in it cracking the road surface and rendering the track unusable. During the 5 years of construction they shut off major roads and commercial districts resulting in the closure of several dozen businesses and a loss of business well into the billions. It then took an extra two years before testing began in 2013 and eventually 1 line opened up in may this year. From planning to the first tram running was 11-12 years. During this time most of the tram line was cut so it is only a fraction of its original intended size (no idea if the rest is even being built now).

What is even better is Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland and with the referendum for independence coming soon it is a shining example of how great the country will be if it ever passes. You can be sure I will consider moving then.

Yeh so if you really want to be accurate, there would be no tram construction until 2007 (after the late 1800 and early 1900 tram systems) and the first trams that can run on that tramline are only available in late 2013. Totally rubbish for gameplay but accurate non the less.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 11.35 tram track overrides railway on crossing - train is blocked
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2014, 07:19:59 PM »
I should note that the costs have simply not been balanced yet at all. That will be an almost unimaginably gargantuan task which cannot even start until a lot of progress has been made with the code (which will include a system to model inflation) so as (1) to make it possible to achieve a meaningful balance; and (2) not to have to re-work the whole enormous exercise many times over when planned features make the previous balance unserviceable.

The reason that what did exist is generally (although not exclusively) preferred over what could have existed is that the former is infinitely easier to research. I am not averse to hypothetical things in principle (Junna has already produced a hypothetical railway locomotive which in reality only existed as a single prototype), but it is important to be sure that they are clearly plausible for the era and do not cause problems in balancing (by being clearly better than something that was actually used a great deal, for example). Also, things that will take great upheaval to code are likely to be lower priorities for hypothetical than real features (and there is a backlog of real features already).

As to modern trams, they are available in Pak128.Britain-Ex from about 1992, which is when the Manchester Metrolink opened.