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Author Topic: Dual Mode Trains  (Read 5011 times)

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Offline The Hood

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Dual Mode Trains
« on: March 27, 2015, 12:29:43 PM »
I suspect this has been asked for before and probably denied, but thought I'd ask anyway.


The UK is currently ordering several designs of train which operate on both electric (where there are wires) and diesel (where there are not). These will be hard to replicate in simutrans at present but I want to draw them and add them. Simplest implementation I can think of is that it has two sets of power and running cost data, one for electric (which it will default to when track is electrified) and one for diesel (which it will use if not electrified).


Any chance?


Trains planned with this feature:
- Class 88 (Vossloh Euro Dual)
- Class 800 Intercity Express
- something else similar to the class 800 has just been ordered this week, but not given any number or many more details yet.

Offline Taurus

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 12:39:34 PM »
I agree, it would be nice if this system also made it possible to have seperate graphics for each power mode. It would look strange if a class 800 would be running on a non-electrified route with the pantograph up.
If this would be implemented, would it also make it possible to differenciate between overhead electrification and third rail electrification?

Offline Junna

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 03:55:44 PM »
Wasn't the ICE order changed to electric only?

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 04:17:14 PM »
I suspect this has been asked for before and probably denied, but thought I'd ask anyway.

I don't think it was denied. It's just that nobody bothered to implement it. Or that we never found out how it's going to work, in terms of different running cost and power between operating on electricity and running on diesel. And if you have both an electric locomotive and a diesel locomotive in the same train, should the diesel locomotive stop working when electrified, or should it keep running as a booster. Simple ideas can become very complex.

If this would be implemented, would it also make it possible to differenciate between overhead electrification and third rail electrification?

That's a rather different thing, as dual-mode is a vehicle thing, while different types of electrification is primarily a way infrastructure thing. They only meet for vehicles that should run of different types of electrification.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 06:56:57 PM »
Wasn't the ICE order changed to electric only?

No, they canned the diesel only version but kept the dual mode and electric only ones.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 05:22:34 AM »
The biggest problem is the economic model in standard Simutrans would not really benefit from it. Where as in real life electrifying segments of track can take years and disrupt services doing so, in Simutrans it is a 1-2 second job. Where as in real life this could make a journey cheaper to consumers and so more competitive (possibly with bigger profit margin), in Simutrans you always want the maximum profit margin (as goods pay a fixed amount) which in this case would be electrifying the entire line. You would find that people would electrify the entire line instantly and use the electric only versions of the engines and never touch the hybrid engines outside of sandbox reasons. Resources implementing such a feature would be better spent on another feature.

Experimental has a more complicated economic model so could take advantage of the feature.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 08:35:04 AM »
I think it's rather that electrifying the line repays the construction cost very quickly in Simutrans. But in either case, choosing to electrify a line in Simutrans is not as big a decision as it is in real life. pak64 pretty much forces you to, as diesel locomotives are not powerful enough to pull long enough trains for throughput fast enough for profit through speed bonus.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 03:19:03 PM »
This is true. In pak128.Britain though there ought to be enough modern diesel trains to turn a profit without wires, but the set isn't well balanced. That's a project for another day...

Offline Taurus

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 05:21:38 PM »
It would maybe be interesting for other paksets to use with the "Last Mile" technology.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 06:42:21 PM »
It would maybe be interesting for other paksets to use with the "Last Mile" technology.

Considering a mile in Simutrans is just a tile or two, I don't find it that interresting. Even if we use a different scale, the cost of electrifying those tiles isn't really an issue in Simutrans. The issue of not electrifying the last mile in Simutrans becomes pretty much just an issue of esthetics. Programming last-mile locomotives is a rather big change in the code just to get different running cost and a lowered pantograph for a few tiles.

However, what The Hood wrote of seems to be more than last-mile diesel, capable of running on diesel all the way if necessary. This would allow you to emulate last-mile, though it would still be just esthetically, since Simutrans doesn't limit the range that differs last-mile and full dual-mode.

Offline Václav

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2015, 09:07:31 PM »
Wasn't the ICE order changed to electric only?
May it be I am wrong but I have not ever heard (read) about any version that would have electric and diesel engine together.

One version is diesel-engined and is operating on tracks in German highlands (where most tracks lack electrification).
Other versions are electric.
Few versions (including that diesel-engined) are constructed as tilting trains (usable only in experimental).

Offline Flemmbrav

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2015, 09:17:31 PM »
They're talking about the british class 800, the british ICE.

I want to support that idea too, but in my case it would be usefull for our Traxx AC3 (LM)...
Well, the british addon would get one class 800 too..  ;D

By the way, i'm still wayting for a photoshopped class 800/801 in DB ICE livery:)

Offline prissi

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2015, 09:44:14 PM »
Since wikipedia gives same speed under diesel and overheadwires, for the actual running a diesel (or maybe fuel cell to avoid smoke) unit would be similar. The only difference would be marginally different running costs; which are very unlikely that much different, because at high speed the running cost allow only a little margin to avoid either swimming in money or ruunign huge losses fast.

Offline Ters

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Re: Dual Mode Trains
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2015, 10:18:07 PM »
The only difference would be marginally different running costs; which are very unlikely that much different, because at high speed the running cost allow only a little margin to avoid either swimming in money or ruunign huge losses fast.

Power output is different. For Vossloh Euro Dual Wikipedia gives 5/4 MW for electrical and as low as 1-2.8/0.7 MW for diesel. So even if the running cost is only a little higher, the speed bonus would likely be much lower.

(And they say the graphic should be different.)