Author Topic: Swedish signals and signs. (Read 54574 times)

Ves · « **Reply #105 on:** December 01, 2015, 10:33:22 PM »

Quote from: Vladki on December 01, 2015, 08:48:07 PM

I was thinking also about sign at page 81 or 27 (2.1), just because it would be easy to do. But I have no idea what they mean.

"Påstigningssignal" is actually a mechanical signal, placed on the platforms and turned by any travelers on the platform to face the train in order to tell the train that there are people wanting to travel with the train.

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Now the signals can be distinguished by number of lights:
2 - 2-aspect stop
3 - 2-aspect choose
4 - 3-aspect stop
5 - 3-aspect choose
I think it is enough. I would use the yellow diamond, or some other plate to mark ATC signals.

Ok, I guess thats also enough.

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BTW do you have any idea if some signals in sweden are "permissive"?

Some kinds of permissive signalling do exist:
5 light signal: three green solid = "short route" meaning that the train should drive carefully because there are obstacles (eg another train).
Dwarf signals: page 22 shows a combined dwarf and main signal. The second aspect from the top could in principle be a permissive signaling aspect, however its irl focused for shunting movements. Such a signal is in effect also a 3 aspect signal (beside the call on aspect):
Stop= Solid red, horisontal white (no 1)
Caution= Flashing left green, vertical white (no 5)
Clear= Solid right green, vertical white (no 8 (page 23))
Callon= Solid red, vertical white (no 2)

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I think about using dwarf-signals (either alone or combined with main signal), for token-block signalling. Even if it is not used in sweden, you might need it for playing a game.

Maybe not use the dwarf signal for that, but the sign on page 27, fig 2.1? Despite its usually a sign placed where the train stops, it means that the clearance given from the last signal, still is valid beyond the platform. We could interpret it that the sign is placed on the signal itself, making it a tokenblock signal.

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A thought about speed signs - if I guess right it is the round yellow sign with black number at page 41. and the triangles at page 42 are their distant counterparts? What is the sign with triangle instead of numbers?

You are right with the speed signs and their distant counterparts. The signs with a triangle instead of numbers are just telling that a speed restriction, shown on the ATC panel in the train, is ahead. Arrow down is used when the speed will be lower, otherwise the up-pointing arrow.

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Is the fig 38 in http://www.ekeving.se/t/sao41/sif.html just an older version of speed sign? (also as 1.9 at page 114)

Yes, I assume fig.38 just are an older version of speed signs. However the signals 1.9 at page 114 are modern speed restrictions for shunting.

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What is 6.3 (page 64) ? Hinderpale

This pole is used at track joints, and is positioned where a train may park before the joint.

Vladki · « **Reply #106 on:** December 12, 2015, 05:57:03 PM »

Hi, I have an idea how to "fake" the T signal. I can just move the graphics of classic semaphore to the very edge of tile. And then if you build signals so that they are between the tracks (signal on right side of track, train running on left hand track), their masts will join visually together, while arms will operate independently. However it will be usable only for block signals on double track. Putting such signals in the middle of station, it will force you to build the station twice as long.

As to the old 3-state signalling. From what you wrote early, it seems to me as very similar to time-interval signalling. But if I understand correctly, that can be used only on double track, otherwise head-on collisions are unavoidable. Alternative option would be to use the T signal as permissive (in absolute or circuit block), with caution coded as call-on. But I think it too will work nicely only on double track. For single track, the token-block is imho the only viable option (unless the discussed change in reservations is made).

jamespetts · « **Reply #107 on:** December 12, 2015, 09:34:03 PM »

This would only work on a two track station, would it not, even if the code were amended to make this pair act like a T-signal/station signal?

Vladki · « **Reply #108 on:** December 12, 2015, 10:37:09 PM »

Yes there would have to be one T signal for each pair of tracks. It was just an idea how to get T signal's visual appearance without any code modifications. Anyway I think that T signals are not really usable in simutrans. They remind me of some small czech stations, that use mechanical semaphores until now. These small stations have only one signal for each direction, even though there are multiple tracks. The signalman (station master) has to go out and let the train depart with hand signal (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%BDpravka). I suppose that similar system was used with T signals. It worked in addition to hand signals.

In simutrans you too need to specify from which track the train is allowed to go. So you have to put a signal on each platform before the points. If you put the signal out of the station (behind the points, where the station track join together), you ask for deadlock. Train will depart (in drive-by sight) and if the track is not free, it will block the points.

Ves · « **Reply #109 on:** December 14, 2015, 02:36:16 PM »

That was avery creative way to get the t-signal!
Although it is a very nice idea, I would really like to hear if James has any new thoughts regarding these signals?
If there was an easy way to make your arrangement work on single tracks as well, it would also be interesting.

The three state signaling, but where two trains in rare circumstances where allowed to travel in the same direction after each other, I thought we would not do?
Anyway, that requires some code change to make it work on single track.

jamespetts · « **Reply #110 on:** December 14, 2015, 11:08:37 PM »

I have been rather busy at work lately, and have had less time than I might like to dedicate to Simutrans. I had also been somewhat side-tracked by rebalancing the steam locomotive power (if you will excuse the pun). The next step is to improve the way that junctions work in time interval signalling using some new research information recently obtained from very old railway rule books, and I will then consider further whether the T-signal or station signal can readily be incorporated into the code.

Ves · « **Reply #111 on:** April 25, 2016, 06:26:24 PM »

If those new alpha-blendings gets into Experimental, that could be used to show the status of a signal from behind: Let colored "spheres" be in front of the lamps that are lit! That way almost all signals can be painted more true to the original and it still being possible to se the status from all angles.

Vladki · « **Reply #112 on:** April 26, 2016, 06:38:56 AM »

Yes, I have that on my todo list

Ves · « **Reply #113 on:** June 24, 2016, 08:06:59 PM »

Are you doing any work on this currently?

I am reworking all the signals so it gets more flexible and adding all the states not yet present. They will also not be compatible backwards anymore.

Vladki · « **Reply #114 on:** June 24, 2016, 08:25:10 PM »

Not doing anything but there may be some uncommited unfinished stuff. I was working on czech signals recently. I'll check what I have and push it to git, or send separately.

uploaded signals.new - which has my latest stuff. No changes in graphics, just in dat... Feel free to modify

Ves · « **Reply #115 on:** June 24, 2016, 08:30:44 PM »

great, thanks!

Vladki · « **Reply #116 on:** June 24, 2016, 08:41:48 PM »

pushed. Tried to compile, fails on:

ERROR: image_writer_t: cannot open Vehicles/Rail Vehicles/Locomotives/A-tender.png

Ves · « **Reply #117 on:** June 24, 2016, 08:58:26 PM »

Are you using the old "original" makeobj or a devel-new one?
Oh, I forgot to upload the graphics. Try again!

Vladki · « **Reply #118 on:** June 24, 2016, 09:27:25 PM »

its ok now

Ves · « **Reply #119 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:00:46 AM »

There is now a whole bunch of signals I have modified on github for the new experimental. I think there might be some bugs and issues in the datfiles, but will have a look on that again later.
Also note that they are on a new branch on github. Very originally I called that branch half-height..

Please have a look at the graphics, and write if you encounters any issues or other things!

Vladki · « **Reply #120 on:** July 06, 2016, 06:26:46 PM »

ERROR: image_writer_t: cannot open Way/WayObjects/Rail Signals/images/Main_2_ATC.png

Edit: it was only case sensitivity of file names in Linux. Fixed by renaming files and pushed to git

Just a question - why most of the signals are coded as longblock?

Ves · « **Reply #121 on:** July 08, 2016, 09:05:37 AM »

Sorry for the delay!
I was testing the long block feature and some of the tests made it onto git. Currently, all track circuit block signals (maybe save for the choose signals, I don't remember) are coded as longblock, because it seems to work as usual AND you can then use the same signals as starter signal.
Also, the time interval with telegraph (red white semaphores) use long block for the same reason.
However, nothing is definitive.

There is also a bunch of yellow/red semaphores currently coded as absolute block while I'm not sure if they should remain as such.

Vladki · « **Reply #122 on:** July 08, 2016, 04:46:29 PM »

Ok. Just one idea, about trac circuit vs. Cab signalling. As there is not big difference between them, I would suggest to set 2-aspect signals as track circuit and 3-aspect as cab signalling. Without the need for yellow sign to distinguish. I know it is not historically correct, but it will be easier for the player. Btw top speed at czech railways without cab signaling is 120 km/h, distance between distant and main signals (or 3-aspect blocks) is 1 km. This is considered too short for higher speeds, therefore cab signaling is needed to extend the visibility of signal and get 2 km of braking distance

Ves · « **Reply #123 on:** July 09, 2016, 10:07:56 AM »

In that case, you would loose the three aspect signals as a track circuit block signal? I dont think I would want that. The idea in the end is that when ATC is developed (in 1980) the track circuit block signals gets obsololete, so you would never have to choose between the two.
The icon says ATC (somewhere, there should be a declaration that ATC=Cabsignals), do you still think it would cause confusion?

Vladki · « **Reply #124 on:** July 09, 2016, 07:35:53 PM »

My idea was based on czechoslovak signalling, where 3-aspect signalling was introduced in 50's with track circuits, and quickly upgraded to cab signalling in 60's. 2-aspect signals are essentially absolute block, but for simutrans I code them as circuit with default danger. Czech cab signals are simpler than swedish ATC, they just repeat the aspect of next signal (danger, caution, slowly, clear). If you think it is worth distinguishing circuit and cab signals, then do it.

Ves · « **Reply #125 on:** September 05, 2016, 08:52:16 PM »

One of the "new" features from standard is the alpha image blendings. That is now in Experimental as well and I made a quick test to check how to use it:

If you cannot immediatedly see it, it is the lights from the signals throwing a glare in the air in front of the lamp, so one can see the state of the signal from behind.
What do you think?

Thank you to all involved in making this possible!

jamespetts · « **Reply #126 on:** September 05, 2016, 09:25:50 PM »

This is a splendid idea for the use of the alpha blending, but, using the Swedish pakset downloaded from here, I cannot see the effect; am I missing it, or is this not properly incorporated?

Ves · « **Reply #127 on:** September 05, 2016, 09:35:13 PM »

Im still painting them as of this moment

That picture was just from the very first signal!
I will make a commit with them in just a minute!

Vladki · « **Reply #128 on:** September 05, 2016, 09:51:49 PM »

Great, I also thought that this would be the perfect use for alpha blending.

Ves · « **Reply #129 on:** September 05, 2016, 10:50:41 PM »

All daylight signals are now on github with alpha blending

Ves · « **Reply #130 on:** September 07, 2016, 09:23:23 PM »

There is also another thing that has got alpha blendings in this image:

See if you can spot it

jamespetts · « **Reply #131 on:** September 07, 2016, 09:33:47 PM »

The image does not load for me, I am afraid.

Ves · « **Reply #132 on:** September 07, 2016, 09:43:33 PM »

Strange.. it loads fine for me even though i have logged out from Imgur. Try reload the page maybe?

jamespetts · « **Reply #133 on:** September 07, 2016, 09:45:11 PM »

That still does not work, I am afraid. Perhaps it is cached for you?

Ves · « **Reply #134 on:** September 07, 2016, 09:51:14 PM »

Vladki · « **Reply #135 on:** September 08, 2016, 06:49:14 AM »

Lookingvon phone, I would guess the lights on the engine. And a light blue pixel on the station roof

jamespetts · « **Reply #136 on:** September 08, 2016, 04:01:47 PM »

Ah, yes, working now! The rear facing signal?

Ves · « **Reply #137 on:** September 08, 2016, 04:08:06 PM »

Catenary!

Isaac Eiland-Hall · « **Reply #138 on:** September 16, 2016, 07:03:03 AM »

(This thread has been moved to the new board for the pak. Just a heads up. Apologies to everyone who sees this message multiple times)

Vladki · « **Reply #139 on:** September 18, 2016, 02:21:20 PM »

I'm looking at the signals with blinking lights being simulated as smaller lights than non-blinking... Nice idea, but quite hard to see the difference between caution + straight route, and alternate route. (and no difference between clear/caution with alt. route). Especially if you don't know that you should look for it. if I may have a suggestion to deviate a little from real world and put the lights like this - one 5 light signal:

top green - clear (the main signal)
red - danger (the main signal)
middle green - caution (distant signal)
white - clear (distan signal)
bottom green - alternate route for choose signal

to the aspects would be like this:

red - danger
2x - green (top + middle) - caution
3x - green - caution + alt route
top green + white - clear
top green + white + bottom green - clear + alt route

2-aspect choose signal, would only have two green lights meaning clear + alt route.
3-aspect non-choose signal, would not have the bottom green (as it is now).