Author Topic: Method of economy settings  (Read 3142 times)

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Offline ShrimpCh

Method of economy settings
« on: June 02, 2015, 08:08:04 PM »
Hello every simutransers!
I make some pak128 addons. However I stop making because I don't know how to set some economy values.
If It has been decided how to set economy values already, may I get a cost table or setting method of pak128 addons?

Thanks
 
 

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2015, 11:10:36 PM »
There are apparently formula used to derive costs for convoys. These are likely inaccurate and in the end you probably have to resort to manual balancing.

For convoys you have two types of metrics...
  • Real: Speed, weight, power, capacity, intro date, length: These are determined based on realistic data for the convoy and have little to do with game balance.
  • Game: Running cost, purchase cost, gear, retirement date: These are usually used to balance the convoy for the game state.

After your real attributes are set you want to set game attributes that make sense. In pak128 generally convoys cost little to run (under 20% margin). Aircraft need closer to 50% margin so that making profit with them is harder. The gear has to be such that a realistic assembly can achieve maximum speed (or near enough). Operating cost usually is some fraction of the expected profit, for example 20% for a freight train or 40% for a passenger train, determine which based on other convoys available at the time. Retirement date is chosen when the convoy is no longer useful, this can be a realistic date, when the convoy is replaced by a superior convoy or simply when the convoy stops being economical to run (huge margin required to break even).

Infrastructure is more difficult to balance. If you want art only then you can hijack existing infrastructure balance (eg an existing track type) and copy those metrics. If it is meant to be a new way type with new speeds then you need new convoys which can use it as generally convoys are balanced for existing way types (or way types were made for them).

For factory metrics consider what is reasonable for a factory to produce. You want it vaguely similar to existing factories as far as input and output values. More valuable chains should be given lower chance.

For new goods you want it to fit vaguely with the value of that sort of good. Speed bonuses should be considered if appropriate and suitable for that type of good. Goods at the end of complex chains generally are worth more than goods from simple chains.

Offline gauthier

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 02:38:24 AM »
All convoys in pak128 are balanced using a formula written (probably as a spreadsheet or something) long ago. Zeno made a program from this so its program can be used to balance your own convoys. All French addons, except for archived addons and MLM dev. maglevs, are balanced using this. The calculations done here are complex so extracting a formula from them would be overcomplicated. This program has a user interface, you can load several .dat files in the same folder at once, although it can't load .dat files containing multiple vehicles (so you have to keep one .dat file for each vehicle). After having loaded your .dat files, find the tool "balance openpak128" (hidden in a menu), then save your .dat files, and it's done.

Quote
There are apparently formula used to derive costs for convoys. These are likely inaccurate and in the end you probably have to resort to manual balancing.

What you have to keep in mind considering pak128's economy: it was neglected for a long time, resulting in a bunch of inconsistencies and many vehicles being "cheated" compared to others. I think Zeno's work is not intended to be the perfect economy setting, but it still makes most vehicles balanced between each other, it is already a big step forward. In my opinion the current drawbacks of pak128's economy are that it works well between 1930 and 2020, but won't work well outside of this period; profit on passenger's transportation depends too much on speed so that in middle and late games buses can't be profitable (but still necessary for the rest of the network to get passengers) and commuters are too little profitable, so you don't have the choice, you have to make high speed lines (trains or planes).

Anyway, until now, all SNFOS addons (in the "right" era) balanced with Zeno's program are playable, we had not to rebalance them by hand. So it should be okay for your addons too.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 04:43:08 AM »
An example of a broken convoy is the "Pioneer Zephyr". It has a maximum speed of "180 km/h" but the smallest (and fastest) possible combination of it only allows for 108 to 102 km/h. Seeing how expensive it is and that it is the only convoy that in 1934 could possible use the 200 km/h Express Track this is quite a major break. In its current state you might as well introduce 200 km/h track a decade or two later!

I am not sure if the power of the convoy is out by a factor of 10, or if it is missing a very high gearing. In any case it is only a fraction of the effective power it needs to reach 180 km/h in any combination. If the convoy was automatically balanced this would be a problem with that balancing system.

Offline ShrimpCh

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 07:07:19 AM »
Thanks to lecture the setting method and offer the information about Zeno san's program!
I will prepare to get the real convoys' spec and add there values for dat file.
After that I wanna use the program and balancing my addons. But I can't download it.
May I get to upload that program again?



I found the software "Simutrans Massive DAT Editor" at http://sourceforge.net/projects/st-mass-dat/. Is this Mr.Zeno's program?
If so, I wanna immediately balance my addons' economy values with this marvellous program!

Many many thanks!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 04:24:18 PM by Isaac.Eiland-Hall »

Offline gauthier

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 12:53:21 PM »
But I can't download it.
It worked when I tried it earlier. Sorry about that. Anyway if it's on sourceforge, it's okay.

Offline Fifty

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 12:56:57 AM »
The DAT editor is just for modifying the DAT files, not for balancing.

IIRC last time I wanted to see the 128 balancing sheet I had to have Zeno email it to me, so I'd suggest asking him.
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline gauthier

Re: Method of economy settings
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 08:36:31 AM »
The dat editor, at least the version I have, features a "balance openpak128" tool in it. If it's not on the sourceforge version, I can retry to upload it.

EDIT : retry
(seems to work ? maybe ...)