Started by jamespetts, January 03, 2016, 12:39:17 PM
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Quote from: jamespetts on January 03, 2016, 12:39:17 PMI should be grateful for people's views on a possible new feature that I am considering. The basic idea is to give a much stronger connexion between passenger transport and industry.
QuoteScamps: there should be a way already to see how many jobs are being taken in industry buildings using the graphs. Is this not clear? I could add the same indicator as in city buildings (e.g., "Jobs: 2/25") if that would help.
QuoteThe reason for the failure is recorded on the colour coded "passenger destinations" overlay in the minimap
Quote from: jamespetts on January 06, 2016, 07:06:29 PMI think that you have made two misunderstandings of the simulation of passenger transport. First of all, you appear (although this is not clear because your description is rather vague) to think that, in any given month, a job slot is either filled for the whole month or not at all. This is not how it works. A building with 3 job slots will accept commuting passengers until such time as it has zero job slots remaining. Job slots will become available again one by one as the effect of the existing commuting passengers elapses with time. The actual way of modelling the fulfilment of job slots does so using a single 64-bit integer representing the time (in internal units) when all job slots will be unfilled. [...]
QuoteBanksie_82: That is an interesting question. I had not considered that sort of limited play. You might organise a map in which the industries are well served by walking passengers, perhaps, or enable "assume_everywhere_connected_by_road" and edit the privatecar.tab (importantly before you generate the map, or else your edits will not apply to the map) to have 100% private car ownership in all eras so that workers can always get to industries by car. That latter method will probably be the easiest way of doing it, as I am not sure how easy that it would be to code a way of disabling this feature at the user (rather than pakset creator) level.
Quote from: Vladki on January 09, 2016, 01:30:44 PMYes I was thinking about noise pollution as well, I just wrote about both together. Population density could be reduced to noise pollution, to simplify the simulation. The only dynamic (and thus more complicated) aspect would be air/noise pollution from traffic.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 09, 2016, 02:53:00 PMIt would be very difficult to simulate noise pollution from traffic without simulating private car traffic on a per tile basis, which is not feasible within the limits of the computational power of any current computer or any likely to be produced in the foreseeable future for the sort of map sizes interesting in Experimental. One could add negative desirability from large public transport hubs (and especially airports), however.
QuoteThis is rather straying into discussion of town growth rather than the economic integration system set out initially, however.
Quote from: Ves on January 09, 2016, 04:13:53 PMWould it not be possible if a way count no of vehicles (it already counts number of player vehicles I think) and then have that as a "traffic pollution". People don't want to live next to too much traffic, being it vehicles with standard diesel/benzin engines or electric engines. Or maybe this is what you meant with "private traffic per tile basis"?
QuotePlayer buildings which contains work slots (eg signal boxes), will there be some form of penalty if the slots are not filled, eg signals get operated slower?
QuoteWhat about job slots in station houses (if they are possible which I think they should)?Also the headquarters should in my opinion have work slots.One could even reach out to say that all vehicles have work slots, but this might very well be too overkill. However the work slots could add to the headquarters (a steam loco with two employe will add two work slots to the headquarters).
Quote from: Ves on January 09, 2016, 04:13:53 PMBut to touch back to the initial topic:Player buildings which contains work slots (eg signal boxes), will there be some form of penalty if the slots are not filled, eg signals get operated slower?
QuoteOne could even reach out to say that all vehicles have work slots, but this might very well be too overkill. However the work slots could add to the headquarters (a steam loco with two employe will add two work slots to the headquarters).
Quote from: jamespetts on January 09, 2016, 04:52:14 PMYes, I am afraid that it is: counting non-player vehicles per tile in a meaningful way would require a whole new pathfinding system which would not be workable except on very small maps.
QuoteI have not finally decided, but I am leaning against this as this has the potential to create deadlocks (how would passengers get to work if the systems are not operating?). Actually implementing the penalty is likely to be very awkward, too.
QuoteStations, depots, etc. already have job slots, but passengers cannot travel to a vehicle as a destination, so it would not make much sense for vehicles to have job slots; it would make more sense for depots to have such slots.
Quote from: VladkiI know I will get more even off-topic, but I was thinking about speed of signal operation as a way to further distinguish absolute block and circuit block methods. But I did not think it thoroughly yet.
QuoteAnd one more per guard (brake) van, and one or two per passenger train, a few per restaurant car... Ooooh there's a lot of options.Those jobs could be added either to headquarters or to the depot, where the vehicle was built. (And transferred to nearby depot or headquarters if depot is deleted.)
Quote from: Ves on January 09, 2016, 05:45:49 PMOk, would it then not be feasible to only use player vehicles to create traffic pollution? After all, there are probably mainly player vehicles on a map anyway and dozens of trucks every day IS more inconvenient than dozens of normal cars after all.
QuoteHow can I access the work slot information? I have tried click multiple times on different buildings with no luck of finding wether there are any work slots (and if they are filled).
QuoteRegarding vehicles, I meant that the more vehicles you operate, the more work slots would eg the head quarter or maybe the origin depot have. So more vehicles = more work slots for those buildings.This could be expanded further to say that eg for every km track = one work slot in head quarterFor every station = additional work slots in head quarter (in addition to the work slots in the station itself)And I could go on
QuotePossible penalties for player buildings:Signal box: signals operate slowerStation house: slower transfer timesDepot: ??Head quarter: minor money penalty?
Quote from: IluvalarNo you're not... You're simulating 6 hours instead of a month. This is 120x less traffic. This will cause the improbable events to happens 120x more often then it should and even worst near impossible situation to happen quite frequently. Like having no employee hitting a specific shop for months in row despite the fact that the network is covered at 90% efficiency.
QuoteIt would still be viable, if you were simulating 1 shop somewhere. You could live with odd events... But you guys are simulating hundreds of town and impossible events will happen all the time in your simulation.I feel just like Malcom in Jurassic park trying to explain chaos theory, statistical certainty and butterfly effects to people who don't understand such things. lol.
QuoteYou'd have an viable approximation count of the amount of traffic on road with the system I suggest. And we already made the maths, I need 1 second calculation on a 1ghz computer to simulate the traffics in a 100km radius of every building in 1 month. The key here is that i'm running the SAME A* algorithm for ALL the passengers.
Quote from: VladkiBack to the topic: someone mentioned combined res/com buildings. One could "fake" them in case of old shops, where the shopkeeper lives in the same house and only his family is working in the shop. That could be simulated as consumer factory with no job slots available and considered to be fully staffed all the time.
Quote from: jamespetts on January 09, 2016, 07:54:05 PM* About unoccupied jobslots in playerbuildings *
Quote from: jamespetts on January 09, 2016, 07:54:05 PMThis is a good point, as this is currently not possible for depots and stops. I will have to look into making this more readily available.
Quote from: VladkiAnd one more per guard (brake) van, and one or two per passenger train, a few per restaurant car... Ooooh there's a lot of options.Those jobs could be added either to headquarters or to the depot, where the vehicle was built. (And transferred to nearby depot or headquarters if depot is deleted.)
Quote from: jamesThis is similar to what Vladki suggested above, although the job slots in the headquarters should relate to the size of the headquarters (which can be upgraded). I have yet to settle upon a satisfactory function for a headquarters.
Quote from: Ves on January 09, 2016, 07:58:47 PMAn alternative way of upgrading the head quarter could be that it upgrades when it reaches a specific number of jobs?
Quote from: Iluvalar on January 10, 2016, 07:58:38 PM[...]I don't know exactly, I'm not crazy enough to reverse engineer your code myself to figure out how many trips per population you manage to simulate in the 6.2 hours long month.[...]
Quotecan anyone still reproduce the problem with roads getting cut off in towns when they expand, for example?
Quote from: Ves on January 11, 2016, 08:21:11 PMI know this is the wrong thread, but a short comment:Yes, I just experienced this when a city was growed. It happened twice just recently.Could open a new thread if this should be a bug report?