Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?

[jamespetts]

I have for some time planned to rename Simutrans-Experimental to Simutrans-Extended when it became more complete and balanced. However, I wonder whether there would be some benefit in doing it sooner than that, perhaps at the same time as the next release. Firstly, there is some suggestion that the current name is confusing people into believing that Simutrans-Experimental is a testing branch for Simutrans-Standard, whereas it is a fork with different goals (more realism and (realistic) complexity). This would make it more sensible to change the name sooner rather than later to dispel this confusion (and reduce the number of people who in the forum enquire as to when a certain feature from Experimental will be incorporated into Standard, when there are no plans ever to do so).

Secondly, I wonder whether re-naming will be more difficult the later that it is left: more people will have heard of "Simutrans-Experimental", and more people will find it hard to remember a new name. Also, I have recently started producing tutorial videos, and it would be worthwhile if all future videos could have the name that the version is planned to have in the long-term.

I should be interested in people's views on this, especially (but not only) those of Standard developers and the administrators of websites and social media outlets that may need amendment to reflect this putative change.

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

"No time like the present" as far as I'm concerned. I think it's a better name, especially given the goals.

[jamespetts]

Thank you, that is helpful. Any other views?

[vzrenggamani]

i think if you change the name..
some people think its a new simutrans forked project..

[jamespetts]

i think if you change the name..
some people think its a new simutrans forked project..

That is why any change in the name would need to be accompanied by appropriate publicity; but I doubt that that would in itself be a sufficient reason not to change the name.

[vzrenggamani]

i  agree about name change..  But when the name change after new releqse or before new release ? btw i dont understand what is your talking about :(
This quote :

but I doubt that that would in itself be a sufficient reason not to change the name.

[jamespetts]

The thing being suggested for consideration here is changing the name at the same time as the next release (not least because the name "Simutrans-Experimental" is embedded in the current version and requires a code change to alter).

[Leartin]

It's Simutrans Ex either way. Maybe even call it Simutrans-X, just for the sake of 90's-Kid

But in all seriousness, I don't think it would be confusing at all, the words are so similar non-english speakers might not even notice the change. You should definitelly rename it before it hits Steam though, if you consider going there with your next version. (If Simutrans EX is even included in the greenlight for Simutrans, maybe it's considered a different game, I don't know)

[Sarlock]

I'd do it with the next release.  There shouldn't be much confusion, as most players will be aware of the switch and the names are close enough that it shouldn't be much of an issue.

[isidoro]

While the name Simutrans Experimental had a reason some time ago, I agree that now it's confusing and implies subordination to a main project, which isn't the case.

Nonetheless, I think that Simutrans Extended isn't a good name either.  St-Ex isn't an extension of St-St since that would imply that Simutrans Standard is a subset of Simutrans Extended.  And, by now, the three possibilities exist: things in common, things only in Standard and things only in Experimental.

I would choose a more neutral term than "Extended".

Paying attention to the second concern, I don't see a problem in renaming the game.  Brands also rename their products once in a time.  Something like "Simutrans Experimental is now Simutrans..." in some strategic places in the web and in the starting screen of the game could suffice.

I would do the changes the sooner the better, since now "Experimental" isn't a good name for the game.

[jamespetts]

"Extended" is the candidate name because what is now Simutrans-Experimental aims to extend the features of Simutrans-Standard in significant ways, and also because it begins with the same two letters as "Experimental". Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?

[sdog]

Rather sooner than later.

Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?

perhaps:

Extended Economy Simutrans

Extra Complex Simutrans

Extremely Economic Simutrans

Expert's Simutrans

(The) Experimental Economist's Simutrans

Excruciatingly Difficult Simutrans

Extraordinarily Fine Simutranse

Exuberantly Whimsically Named Simutrans

I've realised that I became increasingly silly, at a not very well defined point in this list.


edit another one, Simutrans: Economics Fork

[Ves]

Although I think the name "Extended" would work nicely and fit the description of the game very well, I also find it not as exiting than its current name.

Other random names with "Ex" just from on top of my head (sdog managed to post while I was typing so some double...):
Experience
Extra
Expert (you need to be an expert to master this game )
Just "Ex" (would become "Simutrans Ex")
Exemplary (this game is perfect!)
Exam (will you manage through the "exam"?)
Exotic
Extreme

[IgorEliezer]

Rather sooner than later.

There's something you could do now: associate the new name with the old name for a while so search engines can index the change, in other words, use both the new and old names together for a month or two in topic titles and project descriptions, phrases etc, as a transition period.

[sdog]

There's something you could do now: associate the new name with the old name for a while [...]

The Simutrans that is experimental and formerly was named Experimental is for the time being experimentally named Ex<other>. It remains experimental in spirit while experimentally named other than Experimental.

This ought to do, Google is done for.

[jamespetts]

Any transitional period will have to be more than a month or two, as it will be more than that before the next release, and the current release will still bear the name "Experimental".

I am afraid that none of the alternative names suggested so far are as succinct or clear as "Simutrans-Extended" (it really does need to be a single word that follows the word "Simutrans" that precisely describes what differentiates it from Standard; I do not think that the word "extended" requires it to be a strict superset of Standard). ("Extra" is the one that comes the closest, but this is slightly less precise than "Extended").

I should also like views on whether to retain the hyphen.

[Junna]

Hyphen is good as far as I'm concerned. Simu-Ex for short.

[HaydenRead]

I definately think this is a good idea. The name Extended does give a much better idea of what it is, as opposed to Experimental. The idea of using Simutrans-Ex also sounds good.

[sdog]

Any transitional period will have to be more than a month or two, as it will be more than that before the next release, and the current release will still bear the name "Experimental".

I am afraid that none of the alternative names suggested so far are as succinct or clear as "Simutrans-Extended"

Well, then the effort writing it served its purpose. It could convince you that it is near the optimum. The present status is always a viable alternative. (The first rule I learned in my engineering design lectures*

I should also like views on whether to retain the hyphen.

Please keep the hyphen. In English it is facultative, and doesn't hurt. When it is missing Germans with more than the most basic education have the obsessive urge to write a comment, exclaiming "Deppen-Leerzeichen", until the realisation 'It's English anyway!' dawns. Being driven through the entire emotional spectrum all of the time is rather exhausting. /jk

Hyphen is good as far as I'm concerned. Simu-Ex for short.

That is a good point. James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.



*It is hard to believe, there are no equivalent expressions for 'Konstruktionslehre' or 'Methodisches Erfinden' in English?

[Sarlock]

James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.

Or even Sim-X.

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

That is a good point. James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.

As Benevolent Marketing Dictator, I'd like to suggest "Simutrans-Extended" should be reduced to "S-Ex". Or, in case that's not clean enough, "SEx".

[Vladki]

Extended or extra sounds good. Use the -ex only as official abbreviation. Otherwise it sounds like that it used to be sumutrans but it is not any more, like ex-girlfried. Rename asap. Dash is good. I remember the dash fight in czecho(-)slovakia.

[Leartin]

Simutrans Exodus. An Exodus is a big voyage/migration. While it does not quite fit the literal movement of trains, you could surely say that there was such an Exodus, starting from Simutrans, to end up with Simutrans Ex. It's also quite nice that Exodus happens to be the second book after Genesis in the bible, while Basic Simutrans was the 'creation', Simutrans Ex is moving it to a new place.

Simutrans Exalted. Since Simutrans exalted to a new level of existence. Quite metaphysical again.

Simutrans Expanded. Pretty much the same meaning as extended with the same problems, but keeps one more letter of the original Name.

Simutrans Extinct, Simutrans Exitus. If you ever stop working on it


Simutrans Ex. Does it even matter what EX stands for? There are several almost fitting words, but none of them fits quite right. But a few of them together describe Simutrans Ex reasonably well. So just pick whichever words have something to offer, and claim "Ex" is short for all these.

[The Hood]

Simutrans-X or Sim-X for me. Links to the current Simutrans-Ex(perimental) but catchier. The Ex/X doesn't need to stand for anything specific. And it's sufficiently developed to take a name other than experimental already.

[wlindley]

I support "Extra" since it can be more fun but also more complex.  The sooner the better, regardless.

[Vladki]

Simutrans-XP ? :-)

Simutrans-X might confuse linux users, to think that it is version for use with X, the graphics system on linux (unix), while simutrans is for something else (windows, text console, wayland, whatever)

[killwater]

I support extended or expanded . Both sounds fine.

[scamps]

Simutrans-Expert, for you need to be an expert to understand all new features :-)
Simutrans-Excellent, requires explanation?
Simutrans-Exceptional, a name for development build
Simutrans: Expeditions, sounds like a video game name
Simutrans-new EXperience
-Ex, -Extra, -Expanded all sound good too

[sdog]

Simutrans-XP ? :-)

Simutrans-X might confuse linux users, to think that it is version for use with X, the graphics system on linux (unix), while simutrans is for something else (windows, text console, wayland, whatever)

I should not expect Linux users would be confused by this. At least not as much as Windows users would be by the -XP ending.

The more people write it the more I like Simutrans-X. However, due to the extreme abuse of 'X' in pop-culture related marketing, it is still rather lacking style. What is more, while I do not know James in real life, I've learned enough of his character over the years through correspondences and social media. I've never met anyone who would be further from X-games and the like than him. I do not expect I should ever meet someone who would surpass him with regard to this virtue.

I do hope that Simutrans-Extended, capitalised and adequately connected by a hyphen, will soon become the new designation for James' project.


ps.: For intra-forum shorthand use, I think his gracious Benevolence's suggestion is without equal. (At least not easy to get rid of if someone were to try.)

[HarrierST]

I support "Simutrans-Extended"

[isidoro]

"Extended" is the candidate name because what is now Simutrans-Experimental aims to extend the features of Simutrans-Standard in significant ways, and also because it begins with the same two letters as "Experimental". Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?

I'd like to clarify my point.  Since presently there are only two relevant versions of Simutrans, if we add an adjective to one of them, we must be careful about connotations.  If that adjective implies positive connotations, they logically imply negative (or at least a lack of positive) to the other.  And the same happens in the opposite case.  Thus, my petition about neutral adjectives.

Even the adjective "Standard" brings to my mind: normal, usual, of regular quality, etc.  What about "Simutrans Original".  But that brings to me connotations of: genuine, not a copy, etc.  And the problem is the opposite regarding Experimental.

"Extended" implies something that has been added (we suppose that for the good) to a product.  And that implies that the original product "lacks" those good extensions.  Which, by the way, is no longer the case, since Experimental was born from a version of Standard in the past.  Now, strictly speaking, present Experimental is no longer an extension of present Standard.  Standard has evolved and the new features aren't automatically imported to Experimental but "cherry picked".

Since I'm not a native English speaker, I have investigated about the meanings of those words because they can have different connotations in my language.  Unfortunately, some would say for the good, some would say for the bad, English doesn't have a central authority, a "Royal Academy of the Language", an utmost referee, and the task is more difficult than in other continental languages with central royal traditions.

I've chosen a British source and an American one (sorry for Canadians, Indians, Australians, South-Africans, etc.).  In Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, it says:

extended - adjective
1) Made larger; enlarged.  E.g. 'an extended kitchen and a new balcony'
2) Lasting longer than is usual or expected.  E.g. 'an extended period of time'

An American source, Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage:

extended Used as an adjective, extended often has the sense, "notably long; prolonged, lengthy":
  ..."went on an extended vacation"
  ..."even after extended exposure to mirrors" (psychology book)
  ..."had been to Europe on an extended trip"
This sense is both old and respectable, but two recent commentators [...] have expressed disapproval for it as, at best, a poor substitute for long. We see little basis for such an opinion, and the usage is, in any case, clearly standard in the examples above and many others in our files.

Now I'm puzzled and connotations can be bad for Experimental if the name is adopted: long, dull, eternal, ...

About alternative, I also like the one suggested here: Simutrans X.  It adds mystery and can be added so many words after it in the opening screen or web page: Simutrans X: eXtended, eXperimental, eXtraordinary, and so on...

[Lmallet]

I would suggest Simutrans+. 

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

I would suggest Simutrans+. 

Then comes Simutrans++, Simutrans#...

[Vladki]

I like simutrans++

What about simutrans-improved. It is not -ex, but the meaning is what it really is.

Or -expert, -extreme ?

[vzrenggamani]

Or -expert, -extreme ?

what is the meaning of extreme ? i think its too "WoW This forked version will be harder And have more chanlegge .. ( misstype ) .

i think " get a unique name but simple  "

[jamespetts]

"Expert" suggests that one would already have had to have mastered Standard to have any chance of making sense of what is now Experimental, which is not the intention; although internally complex, it is not intended to be extremely difficult for all players to start with, and I hope that it is not.

"Extreme" does not really summarise what what is now Experimental is about: there is nothing particularly extreme about it: it just has more features intended to add realism.

"+" seems to me not significantly different in meaning to "Extended", and has the disadvantage of being more different in appearance and pronunciation than "Experimental". Also, I am not sure whether this might cause difficulties with certain filesystems for the name of the executable; can Windows, Linux and Mac all cope with the + character as a filename?

"Expanded" suggests that what was there has got bigger, rather than that there are more things: "Expanded" would in the Simutrans context tend to imply more content, rather than more features. It would make more of a sense as name of a fork for a pakset than of the code.

"Extended", as I noted above, does not necessarily denote a pure superset: it is intended to denote additional features. People are unlikely to associate it with the second meaning given in the American dictionary in this context.

As to "Original" as against "Standard", is there any appetite for a new retronym for what we now call Simutrans-Standard? The idea of "Standard" was to connote that that version of Simutrans is the reference point: the version that sets the standard. "Original" might imply that it is an old version from which we have now moved on.

[Spacethingy]

Simutrans-EX would get my vote. It implies that the program is... extended? extra? still a little experimental?...i.e. this program is like the first one, but has a few extra things, a few different things, a rather different way of doing things and attitude toward things. Which is all pretty much true.

How about just adding some letters to the end that don't immediately imply anything, but make it distinct from Simutrans-standard? E.g. Simutrans-EFE (extended-forked-edition).

Rather less sensible suggestions: Simutrans Reloaded, Simutrans: the Developer's Cut, Simutrans Rescheduled, Fork in the Road etc. etc. Ever considered completely renaming the whole thing, e.g. Virtuatrans? Simutransit?

[jamespetts]

Thank you for your suggestions. I should rather have a descriptive name that retains "Simutrans" in order to make it immediately clear what it is: it is to similar to Simutrans-Standard to rename it entirely, I think.

[IgorEliezer]

Guys, guaahys! This suggest-a-name game seems pretty fun. Lemme suggest one: Simutrans-ComplEX.

Cool?

No?!

I'm leaving... D:

* IgorEliezer back to his cave.

[isidoro]

[...]
As to "Original" as against "Standard", is there any appetite for a new retronym for what we now call Simutrans-Standard? The idea of "Standard" was to connote that that version of Simutrans is the reference point: the version that sets the standard. "Original" might imply that it is an old version from which we have now moved on.

I don't think there's such appetite.  It was just an example to support my thesis.  In fact, the name "Standard" precisely appears when "Experimental" was born to have a way to name both when needed.  Maybe I'm wrong but it's quite feasible that the first reference to the name appears in one of your posts about "Experimental" and you are the father of the creature.   

All in all, it's a name certified by usage.  Although you're right that we've never talked about whether it would be convenient to also add a surname to mainline Simutrans now that we have a well established fork in Experimental and keep Simutrans alone as the word to refer the family as a whole.

[jamespetts]

I don't think there's such appetite.  It was just an example to support my thesis.  In fact, the name "Standard" precisely appears when "Experimental" was born to have a way to name both when needed.  Maybe I'm wrong but it's quite feasible that the first reference to the name appears in one of your posts about "Experimental" and you are the father of the creature.   

All in all, it's a name certified by usage.  Although you're right that we've never talked about whether it would be convenient to also add a surname to mainline Simutrans now that we have a well established fork in Experimental and keep Simutrans alone as the word to refer the family as a whole.

Whether to rename Simutrans-Standard s, I think, ultimately not a decision for me.

[laos]

Experimental, for me, has always given a sense of "preview" or other nightly features for the Standard fork, rather than an entirely new approach. Extended does however give that impression, so I'd say do it now especially since anyone looking for experimental will see it simply renamed

Or just call the forums Simutrans Extended (Formerly Simutrans Experimental) for a few months.

[isidoro]

I think that that was the original idea of "Experimental".  A place where to test (or experiment) new features likely to be included in main Simutrans if liked.  But that flow of code from Experimental to Standard rarely (if ever) happened and eventually both lineages of code diverged too much and now Experimental is a fork on its own.

So the name "experimental" no longer applies and is confusing and should be replaced asap imho.

[An_dz]

Then comes Simutrans++, Simutrans#...

It has to be Simutrans#, Simutrans++ is Simutrans with just a few more stuff, Simutrans# is completely different but the same

"Original" might imply that it is an old version from which we have now moved on.

That's what I think of, the very first version by Hajo.

Although you're right that we've never talked about whether it would be convenient to also add a surname to mainline Simutrans now that we have a well established fork in Experimental and keep Simutrans alone as the word to refer the family as a whole.

To me there's Simutrans and Simutrans Experimental. I find useless to even use Standard unless you are comparing with Experimental to clarify to which you are referring.

Simutrans: Expeditions, sounds like a video game name

Really sounds like. Which makes me think of Simutrans Experience

[An_dz]

I looked the Wiktionary list of EX words and got some more options:
Simutrans Expressive
Simutrans Expressivity
Simutrans Express

Simutrans Exponent, so we can call it Simutrans^e

Simutrans Executable, to bring ultimate confusion when talking:

Does it happen immediately when you run Simutrans executable?

I'm not using Simutrans Executable

No, I'm talking about the game executable

From Simutrans Executable?

But seriously, James is British, why not a British name?
Simutrans EXtended Caracteristics And Logistics Into Bigger Ultimate Realism

Or, in short, Simutrans Excalibur.

[IgorEliezer]

Or, in short, Simutrans Excalibur.

WOW, what a stretch!

[Leartin]

But seriously, James is British, why not a British name?
Simutrans EXtended Caracteristics And Logistics Into Bigger Ultimate Realism

Or, in short, Simutrans Excalibur.

SImutrans EX Paksets will require to have a "sword in the stone"-monument to run. Players default names will be those of the knights of the round table, with Merlin as the Public. Great

[Dwachs]

I share isidoro's concern about the change to 'simutrans extended', 'simutrans++', etc. It implies that the other version is kind of 'simutrans deficient', 'simutrans--'.

What about speaking of flavors? In contrast to simutrans vanilla name it simutrans chocolate or simutrans xocolatl or  simutrans chocolatEX  for the extra x.

[jamespetts]

I share isidoro's concern about the change to 'simutrans extended', 'simutrans++', etc. It implies that the other version is kind of 'simutrans deficient', 'simutrans--'.

What about speaking of flavors? In contrast to simutrans vanilla name it simutrans chocolate or simutrans xocolatl or  simutrans chocolatEX  for the extra x.

That would be rather confusing to users, I think. I prefer a precise, simple and descriptive name (as "Experimental" originally was).

[vzrenggamani]

Or, in short, Simutrans Excalibur.

I am vote yes for this name ,

[HarrierST]

I share isidoro's concern about the change to 'simutrans extended', 'simutrans++', etc. It implies that the other version is kind of 'simutrans deficient', 'simutrans--'.

But isn't that the point - the original version is easier - to allow new players to get used to it.

'simutrans extended' is an advanced version for more experienced users. Not all players will want to move to a more realistic, but more complex version.

Some want to play for fun, others, for realism.

So why not just call it "Simutrans Extra" - as it adds extra realism and complexity to those who want it.

It in no ways degrades other versions, just adds to them.

Just do not under-estimate the intelligencse of your players.

[DrSuperGood]

"Simutrans Advanced" would be better. It basically is a more complicated version of Simutrans, and hence the name fits it.

That is if you want to keep with the Simutrans brand. You could always put it under its own brand name.

[jamespetts]

"Extended" (or possibly "Extra", but see my comments in a previous post on that) has the particular advantage of sharing the first phoneme with "Simutrans-Experimental". Indeed, it is for this reason that, years ago, I chose the name of the Experimental version of the British pakset as Pak128.Britain-Ex, using the two letters that would be shared between the old and new name. The Swedish pakset has recently done something similar for the same reason. "Advanced" does not have that advantage (and is not the opposite of "advanced" "retarded"? The opposite of "extended" is merely "unextended").

As for separating the names entirely, given that a majority of both the code and the paksets are the same, given that Experimental and Standard players and developers are (very happily indeed) part of the same online community, given that the fundamentals of the games are the same with only details different, and given that most code changes in Standard are merged into Experimental, it makes sense to keep the same base name.