Author Topic: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?  (Read 2157 times)

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Offline Argelle

Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« on: August 30, 2016, 11:58:03 AM »


With pak 128, I do not get the way to start my first tunnel (either road or as on picture, train).
I stumble upon posts here on half slope et so on, but sill no success.

I think I am in the configuration similar to this tutorial (http://simutrans.fr/doku.php?id=en:tunnel see first picture) but not able to repeat this simple step.

I've tried so far:
with or without ctrl (to get at least an entrance).
with or without existoing track on the slope.
clicking on slope, draging mouse all the way.
digging to get a vertical wall (on both side).

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2016, 01:35:36 PM »
Your slope is not steep enough.  Tunnels can only be built on a full height slope (45 degrees), not the half height one.

Tutorial here:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=14886.0

Offline Ters

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Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 02:11:51 PM »
Or to put it more realistically (since that works in this particular case): The hill isn't tall enough. A cutting would be more realistic here.

Offline Argelle

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 02:23:40 PM »
Thanks for your help :)
I'll grab a test save to avoid burning money with terraforming and I'll test this : full height slope (1/1)

The too small hill on my picture is a half height, correct ? (1/2)
So the terraforming tools allow to create half-half height slope, yes ? (1/4)

Offline Ters

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Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 02:37:12 PM »
No. Pak sets either allow half and full, or single and double height. Quarter heights do not exist no matter what. Your hill is just half height.

Offline Argelle

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 03:52:23 PM »


So I was very wrong. Is this correct ?

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 04:18:37 PM »
Quote
So I was very wrong. Is this correct ?
The 4 artificial walls from left to right go...
0.5, 1, 1.5, 2.

The two ramps pointed by arrows from left to right...
0.5 slope, 1 slope

The other composite ramps are made out of artificial walls and slopes so have no real name.

Internally the game represents Z in integer units so the shallowest slope is always a height difference of 1. Logically though it counts as 0.5, so you will need 2 elevations to go over ways. Tunnels are always built on the 45 degree slope, which is the double slope for half height paksets and the single slope for standard height paksets.

Offline Tjoeker

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 05:20:10 PM »
maybe we should add in the error message that it should be a full height slope?

or (if it's even possible):
check what is wrong and give an error message about the specific situation like:

the tunnel should start on a straight slope
the tunnel should end on a straight slope
the tunnel should start on a full height slope
the tunnel should end on a full height slope

Offline Ters

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Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 06:02:53 PM »
maybe we should add in the error message that it should be a full height slope?
I think the error messages come from a part of the system that does not know about half/full versus single/double.

The 4 artificial walls from left to right go...
0.5, 1, 1.5, 2.
This might just confuse Argelle, but I add this for completeness: if the same tools were used in a double-height pak set, like pak64, you would get 1, 2, 3, 4, respectively.

The two ramps pointed by arrows from left to right...
0.5 slope, 1 slope

The other composite ramps are made out of artificial walls and slopes so have no real name.
In essence, they are, from lower left to upper right, four consecutive half-height slopes and two consecutive full-height slopes. Using the same tools in pak64, they would have been four consecutive single-height slopes and two consecutive double-height slopes.

Offline Argelle

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2016, 08:33:01 AM »
Since your extra helpful and detailled, I've got to ask:



these are the definitions of height and slope, are they?


Offline gauthier

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2016, 10:06:12 AM »
Indeed ;)

Quote
I think I am in the configuration similar to this tutorial (http://simutrans.fr/doku.php?id=en:tunnel see first picture) but not able to repeat this simple step.
Sorry, I should have kept this tutorial up to date, my bad  :-X

In your situation, if you are at the beginning of a game (little money), you should simply draw your track on the hill. Like Ters suggested, the best thing to do is cutting the hill but be aware that terraforming is expensive.

Offline el_slapper

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2016, 11:28:49 AM »
In your situation, if you are at the beginning of a game (little money), you should simply draw your track on the hill. Like Ters suggested, the best thing to do is cutting the hill but be aware that terraforming is expensive.

Cutting the hill is the best for 2 reasons :

(1) you don't pay maintenance for a tunnel
(2) your vehicle does not los traction by going uphill

It sometimes leads to insane cuts in big mountains, but when you are wealthy enough, creating your own valley is keeping your network efficient for a standard maintenance cost(at the cost of the terraformin investment, which can be huge).

Offline Ters

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Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2016, 09:20:02 PM »
Since your extra helpful and detailled, I've got to ask:



these are the definitions of height and slope, are they?

I'm not sure that drawing is geometrically correct, but then we are not really dealing with formal geometry here. According to Wiktionary, a slope is ground that goes evenly up or down. When talking of slopes in Simutrans, we only consider a single tile (the squares the world in Simutrans is made up of when seen from above, which only the minimap lets you do) at a time, although terrain that rises uniformly across several tiles would also be slope by Wiktionary's definition. (There are also some tiles that would fit the definition of a slope, but which Simutrans doesn't treat as such, but they are not relevant in this discussion so far.)

Offline gauthier

Re: Tunnel : what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 04:49:10 PM »
Cutting is the best solution for long term but you have to take into account that terraforming is very expensive for a beginner especially since money passed in terrforming is completely lost (nothing goes to wealth), hence my piece of advice.