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Offline colonyan

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New Growth Method
« on: March 13, 2009, 05:06:24 AM »

   I really loved Knightly's idea.
    Interactions between Passenger Transport and Goods Transport
  So much that I was thinking about it for few days.
   Borrowing Knightly's idea and made some modification on it.
   Also tried to make it simple.... at my best. :-[

  At least I tried to make relation between pass/mail chain and industry chain. But thing came out to be
  different .

  Mine does not interact in the way that good passenger service lead to greater demand for product.
  Instead, mine does things with conditioning of population growth and its speed.
 
  Mostlikely to be forgotten, but given the time I spent on thinking about it(my poor petite tete)
  I will just post it anyway.
 
start
(order)Mail, (workforce)Passenges, (consumer)Passengers are created as extra from the conventional
passenger/mail demande. They appears same as any other passenger and mail.

                                                                       ===
 I N P U T                                                                                                             O U T P U T
_Industry_
(order)Mail & (Workforce)Passenger & Raw Material       --> Factory    ==> Goods      


_EndConsumerStores
(Consumer)Passenger & Goods                               --> Shops      ==> (order)Mail

*Workforce Passengers are from residential buildings from nearby cities
*Consumer Passengers are from residential buildings from nearby cities
                                                                       
                                                                       ===


A.Conventional passenger/mail service quality influence how many consumerPassengers,
  which visits random nearby stores available, will be created at that city.

  =consumerPassengers destination is random nearby stores available
  -conventional game play. except it does not give growth directly

B.Goods arrived at stores are slowly diminished
  =diminish speed is related to factory production speed
  =same as now. except this does not automatically grants population growth
  =No relation between the arrival of consumerPassenger to the store
   and the speed at which goods are diminished

C.Goods must be available at stores whenever consumerPassengers arrives at stores,
  so growth is granted for the city of the origin of that customer

  =No relation between the arrival of consumerPassenger to the store
   and the diminishment of the good
  =If no goods are available at arrival , no growth is granted for the city of the origin of that consumerPassenger
     [Example]________________________________________________________________ _____
   |CityA has 100% pass/mail departure last period.                                                                       |
   |100 (consumer)Passengers are generated and 50 of them make the arrival.                                |
   |Thus, actual growth is 50% of what is supposed to be for that period.                                          |
   |____________________________________________________________________________|
     -asks player to make goods 24h/365 available 

D.More the store is filled with goods, higher growth count is given for each customer
  =Example, 90%^        Extra growth count
            89%~60%           Full
            59%~20%            Reduced
            19%~1%        Little      
    -asks player to try to fill the store as much as possible            
    -simulates volume as quality/variety

E."(order)Mails" issued at stores must be delivered in timely manner to corresponding
        factories so production is permitted

  ="(order)Mails" are issued at the end of each period. If factories doesn't recieve before
   the period one after, it can not operate and produce products.
    -testing fluidity of the player's network.(for hardcore players maybe)
    -adds concept of in time delivery   
    -factory stops operation until it recieves (order)Mail for that specific period
    -creates feel that economy cycles
   
===

(workforce)Passengers are created depending on factory production speed. They appear on nearby cities.
Once they arrive, they are counted as workforce and is consumed as same manner as raw material and production goes on.

===
summary
Growth is the fact the game's goal from the mechanics point of view, so that player can expand network and work/play on it.
*more stores are filled, faster growth is expected(industry chain)
*more stores and factories are accessible, secure growth is expected(pass/mail chain)

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 06:50:40 AM »
Hi Colonyan

I like your idea on designating mail as a means of placing orders for goods, which I regard as innovative. :)

So, your principal suggestions are :
1) Consumers arriving at a store with adequate supply of goods will boost population growth at their home town
2) Factories need to receive orders via mail in order to start production

My respective opinions are :
1) AFAIK passengers do not remember/record their place of origin in the program code. So, there is no way of tracing consumers' origin currently. Besides, I think it is not very logical that a consumer travelling miles to a store in a remote town to buy something will end up boosting population growth in his home town.
2) I think it will be too restrictive that factories must receive orders via mail to begin production. It will be too harsh on new players. And I think order placing is not restricted to mail -- it can be done via courier delivery, salesman visits, telephone, fax or even email.

Offline isidoro

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 12:55:02 PM »
I like the idea of integrating mail in the chain.  I've also thought about that before.  Perhaps in advaned mode with too little quantity of mail as another ingredient for the factory (like hopfen in pak.german to make beer).

Some suggestions:
  • Now that we're in economic crisis, perhaps there should be a way to make population go down under certain conditions
  • Population change should depend on: availabitity of work, residence, food and water (i.e. you build a supermarket and fill it with food, houses will be built around it.  If you cease to give food to it, population around should diminish.
  • Supermarket consumption should depend only on visitors (either local, they need not travel, as it is now, or remote, arriving at the station in coverage)
  • City water tanks should behave as supermarkets, but no need for people to visit them.  Underground pipes are supposed.
  • You can include delivery of electricity as a factor of grouth, if wanted.

But those ideas approach to a city-building simulation game...

Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 01:02:25 PM »
Hi, ^^

edit:to Knightly

I agree both 1) and 2) of your opinion.

Although I agree simulation game must be as realistic as possible,
I also thinks that game is still a game so I think it can have its own rule to represent real world phenomena
within the limited resource. Order Mail and customer arriving at stores are these.

1)[consumer]
I represented their behavior as starting point of economic cycle, the purchase.

2)[program does not remember the origin of the passenger]
oh yes, I forgot about this completely. I guess its hard to ask make special codes for those kind of passengers...
________________________________________________________________ _______________________________

 {Another small idea}

 -Give stores coverage area, think in game represented store as main store commanding (or HQ) many other
   small stores of same kind represented as conventional city buildings.
 -Consider cities which its town hall is inside store's coverage area is considered served.
 -Stores consumes goods proportional to service quality of passenger/mail
  of cities which their town hall is within store's coverage area.
 -More the town hall is inside the coverage area of different stores types and goods are supplied both constantly and in
  quantity, faster the growth.

 =This will ask player to distribute all product type through out the map without having to deliver them to each city.
   >more city is rich in material availability, attractive it is so it grows faster(within game balance)
   >use of freight train will not be limited to original chain given enough pop upped stores covers all town halls.
 =Pass/Mail chain gives potential for growth. If Industry chain can satisfy existing population's goods demand,
   actual population grows.
   >Attempt to relate pass/mail chain with industry chain, so they both work to achieve same one goal, not
     individually allowing to achieve growth.

  Ex. Good pass/mail service quality translates into active product consumption demand
                                          V
       Good industry chain service quality satisfies consumption demand
                                          V
       Healthy population growth occurs
 
  Edit: As initial standard 256X256 size map, 2~3 stores should cover the entire map.
         Overlap shouldn't affect any thing.
 
  Edit: Give industry chains its own function.
         Generalized Food Chain :  *minimum service required to maintain existing population level
                                           
         Electricity Chain :          *No electricity, no passenger/mail demand generated in that city
                                          *let public or player construct distribution center covering 128X128 area
                                            connect line to distribution center and cities inside area is served
                                          *power plants shares electricity among them
                                          *make all industries requires heavily electricity   
                                     
         Auto Mobile Chain:        *city will have limited city area if not covered
                                          *influential consumer good for city growth speed
                                          *-*covered city will generate less passengers

         Steel Chain :                *new high rise and industry city building construction requires coverage
                                            for full construction enacted. (-33% construction chance if city not covered)                       
                                            (All canceled construction means growth opportunity lost) (each city basis)
 
         Concrete Chain:            *new all city building construction requires coverage except single houses
                                            (-33% construction chance if not covered) (each city basis)
         
         Wood Plank Chain:         *all new single house construction requires coverage
                                            (-50% construction chance if not covered) (each city basis)
         
         Furniture Chain:            *consumer good for city growth speed
                                          *affect residential development
                                            (-25% construction chance for all residential if not covered)

         Medicine Chain:             *consumer good for city growth speed

         Book Chain:                  *consumer good for city growth speed
                                            (-16% construction chance for commercial and industry city building if not covered)

________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________
 
  Edit:To isidoro
         I wished too that there is some kind of slow decrease of population given some conditions for more situation variety.
________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 02:13:19 PM by colonyan »

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 04:48:31 PM »
@isidoro :

Perhaps in advaned mode with too little quantity of mail as another ingredient for the factory (like hopfen in pak.german to make beer).
Nice idea of treating mails much like raw materials at factories. Maybe the same could be done for passengers as workers at factories, as you have suggested in my thread to decrease worker count gradually. ;)

@colonyan :

As initial standard 256X256 size map, 2~3 stores should cover the entire map.
So, you are going to give each store a really big service area? I think that defeats the purpose of transportation. :(

Give industry chains its own function.
I love these ideas very much. :D They make each type of goods unique. Just one supplementary note : supplying more automobiles may also mean more city cars around, though probably you may think this is no good.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 04:53:28 PM by Knightly »

Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »
@Knightly
Quote
Quote
As initial standard 256X256 size map, 2~3 stores should cover the entire map.
So, you are going to give each store a really big service area? I think that defeats the purpose of transportation. Sad
I think 3 or 4 is enough for 256X256 map depending on city location distribution.
 Say there is seven industry types. To cover the entire map, it will require 28 shops. I think its decent amount of
 operation of small map as 256X256. Given people plays bigger maps, number must be fiarly controlled I guess...
 512X512 map would require to feed around 60~80 shops. Thats quite a good number of consumer ends to feed around I guess.

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2009, 07:14:51 AM »
I think 3 or 4 is enough for 256X256 map depending on city location distribution.
 Say there is seven industry types. To cover the entire map, it will require 28 shops. I think its decent amount of
 operation of small map as 256X256. Given people plays bigger maps, number must be fiarly controlled I guess...
 512X512 map would require to feed around 60~80 shops. Thats quite a good number of consumer ends to feed around I guess.
The service area of consumer stores will need to be very large to fulfil your requirements above. If I do not misunderstand your notion of service area as similar to service area of, say, a bus stop, then all people within the coverage of a consumer store do not have to travel at all and will proceed right away to goods availability check. Or, you have a different idea about a store's service area? ???

Quote from: colonyan
Give stores coverage area, think in game represented store as main store commanding (or HQ) many other
   small stores of same kind represented as conventional city buildings.
While I also feel that the current consumer stores function more like a distributor/wholesaler/outlet/flagship store, I do not prefer to extend the store's coverage area to simulate goods distribution inside the city. The better way is to have single-tile stores (linked to the current large end-consumer stores) within the city so that players can have a chance to play with intra-city goods logistics. Of course, the number of such stores depend on city size. :)




Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 01:18:34 PM »
Quote
If I do not misunderstand your notion of service area as similar to service area of, say, a bus stop, then all people within the coverage of a consumer store do not have to travel at all and will proceed right away to goods availability check. Or, you have a different idea about a store's service area? Huh?
-Knightly

  The idea on my second post is separate from first one. In second, no customer will visit the store.
  All cities which have town hall in that area is considered served the product of the store.
 
Quote
While I also feel that the current consumer stores function more like a distributor/wholesaler/outlet/flagship store, I do not prefer to extend the store's coverage area to simulate goods distribution inside the city. The better way is to have single-tile stores (linked to the current large end-consumer stores) within the city so that players can have a chance to play with intra-city goods logistics. Of course, the number of such stores depend on city size. Smiley

 I was wrong using another word "coverage area". It meant same thing as above service area. My apology.
 Yes, I would like too one tile stores.
 But my intention in idea in second post was a la railroad tycoon 3. Everyone wants every thing. Thus number of end consumer store
 player can interact must limited in number.  So to avoid too much complexity, I generalized store as regional head shop to represent all small shops.
 If we were to serve 300 small stores covering all cities for all type of product, it will be quite a burden.

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 06:38:35 PM »

@Colonyan

I was wrong using another word "coverage area". It meant same thing as above service area. My apology.
No need to apologize at all. Maybe I am the one who should be blamed for having mistaken you ;)

If we were to serve 300 small stores covering all cities for all type of product, it will be quite a burden.
Your concern is very true. Surely, we will not go so far as to have 300+ single-tile stores within a town. I guess around 3 stores per type of goods supplied may be an acceptable figure. The stores may also sell closely related products to reduce the number of stores needed.  Of course, that figure also depends on town size. It's true that the optimal number is not easily determinable, but the approach itself is not infeasible anyway. BTW, we have gone off-topic (my fault indeed, my apologies). :P

Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 07:57:41 PM »
I think there are a lot of good idea's in this thread and its definitely worth experimenting. Although i wonder how hard it will make this game for the beginner. Offcourse this is solvable through keeping a mode that is close to what we have now.

I dont think towns should shrink physic wise, population wise it could happend, but the houses dont disappear, they should become out of use, kinda like how in sim city buildings start to decay when a certain limit is reached.

Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 01:27:15 AM »

   @Knightly
     The example number 300 is for entrie map, for all cities. ... Any way I guess I have to rearrange my thoghts, and also reread your thread too.
     I don't see that we've gone off-topic. Let's take it not too serious. ^_^
   
   @the almighty snark
     I agree building should stay and only people count diminish. I also like the a la simcity decaying (greyed) building idea.
     Yeah why not, I'd like to play a map where economy went all wrong for some reason and cities are deserted! It will have its own atmosphere
     and play experience!  ;D  How to make it happen relatively easity....
 
   Now I (we) have to convince(lobby :-*) fellow programmers to take more interest in this kind of field...
   We need a very good writing skill and concrete and clear idea!

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 02:53:35 AM »
@Colonyan

This will ask player to distribute all product type through out the map without having to deliver them to each city
Sorry but, this is the part of your suggestion which I don't quite agree. While I understand your kind intention to simplify gameplay a bit, I believe that in a transportation game a player has to undertake the mission to deliver things (pax/goods/mail) from origin to their destination. If a city demands certain goods, we should deliver to them. It is the spirit of the game, as well as the challenge offered by it ;)

When I put forth my suggestions in the other thread regarding interactivity among pax/goods/mail transportation, I was trying to elevate the respective importance of these 3 types of transportation through interactivity, not to diminish them.

Hope you understand my concern. :)


Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 04:31:56 AM »
@Knightly
   Ah, I under stand your passion.   
   One thing.
   I just wanted to avoid too much micromanagement by putting service area for stores.
   I still can not imagine I have to deliver all type of goods(even if some types can be sold at same place)....
 
   Maybe yes if all those small shops required relatively few number of truck visit.
   Still, setting up route will be a big management job. So it will depent on balancing if ever it happes.

   I need more time to think about things like,,,
   What happens if we wanted to add new type of industry chain?
   What would be the relation between number of type of goods delivered and growth speed etc.

   Now I want scrap all my ideas and think from fresh...

knightly

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 06:04:17 AM »
@Colonyan

   I just wanted to avoid too much micromanagement by putting service area for stores.

If transporting goods to each city is regarded as micromanagement, transporting passengers from origin stop to destination stop will be even more so -- shall we simplify pax transportation by using city-wide service areas then? ;) IMHO that is the core mission of a player and the gist of the game which should not be done away with through this kind of simplification. And we don't need to transport each type of goods to each city -- we just transport goods to where the they are needed (i.e. cities with stores selling those goods).

Currently, we only need to deliver goods to the consumer stores and don't need to distribute the goods within the city, and that is already a huge simplification. Simplifying further will only reduce the challenge and enjoyment of the game with respect to goods transportation, not to mention that large service areas for consumer stores are unrealistic.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 10:54:07 AM by Knightly »

Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 11:34:08 AM »
@Knightly
   
   Ok, I get your point. I was supposing within the idea that all wanted all kind of products.
   
   Thought, as you said, the fact that we currently have the system that we only need to deliver to the store is already a simplification.
   Mine was another type of simplification within the idea that all cities would accept all type of products. Thus, you have more things to do.
   But not to an extent that all type of goods to all cities. This was made possible by service area idea. (under service area, all cities is considered served)
   Any game has simplification. Thus service area did not supposed to neglect the game's challenge.

 
Quote
Currently, we only need to deliver goods to the consumer stores and don't need to distribute the goods within the city, and that is already a huge simplification. Simplifying further will only reduce the challenge and enjoyment of the game with respect to goods transportation, not to mention that large service areas for consumer stores are unrealistic.

  I was no mean tried to simplify further than what it is right now. Shops will more all over the map than we have now. (in real, all freights all over the place right?)
  Current game already has equivalent of large service area as shops employing from cities. They are employed and contribute to their cities growth. How large is subjective.
  I was aiming about or little more larger area of coverage than employment area currently we have.
 
  -don't need to distribute the goods within the city
    Depending on the type of product, they allow themselves to tranport themselves different distance. The simple idea is the grocery vs furniture. You can allow more time
    because you do not buy furniture as often as food(at least in common). As long as it is well balanced this might be interesting.
    By avoiding situation like having 4 book stores in town of 850(in ST scale).
   

Offline prissi

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 01:36:48 PM »
Not to be too destructive to this and the similar threads; but which descriptions and features that require pages of text I highly doubt many people will be amused by such a complex game (and this is the usual complaints I get, simutrans is too complex).

Offline colonyan

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Re: New Growth Method
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 02:05:24 PM »
@prissi

   I posted "unified growth model" to discuss more simplistic approach.   
   It is good to keep the game simple as same time it is coherent.