Author Topic: How To Make Profit in 1750?  (Read 1291 times)

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Offline The13thRonin

How To Make Profit in 1750?
« on: June 16, 2017, 12:52:01 PM »
Starting at 1750 in the Britain.128 Pack how do I make profit? Transport options seem quite limited and I'm not sure how to make profitable lines.

Offline Rollmaterial

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 08:00:28 PM »
As of now, only boats are profitable in a significant manner. I would recommend starting with a fish chain and then combining several bulk goods chains and passengers on a single boat line with short feeder road lines. Road breaks even as long as you don't own too much roads.

More generally, the pakset isn't balanced and only will when all upcoming balance-critical features are implemented, which is going to take a while.

Offline Jando

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2017, 10:58:05 AM »
Aye, that early you will rely on freight lines, most of it on boats. Try finding a large consumer of goods near coast or river and bring cargo to it. Short feeders on road are fine, but use boats for distance.

Offline The13thRonin

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 03:39:27 PM »
Are we supposed to start in 1750 or would I enjoy a more balanced game if I started in 1900?

I'm pretty good at standard Simutrans now but I'm at a loss when it comes to Extended.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 08:43:47 PM »
Thank you for your feedback; I am sorry that you are having trouble. Rollmaterial is correct, in that the Extended paksets have not been fully balanced yet; balancing will require several other features, and I am busy working on one of those features right now. People have managed to play successfully in the earlier years, however, although if you do not fancy concentrating on ships in the early years, you might want to have a go for the time being at starting a little later: you need not start as late as 1900; I suspect that 1830 would probably suffice.
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Offline Jando

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 08:59:57 PM »
Are we supposed to start in 1750 or would I enjoy a more balanced game if I started in 1900?

I'm pretty good at standard Simutrans now but I'm at a loss when it comes to Extended.

My advise would be to start in 1920 if you want to transport passengers too. Reason is that you have no reasonably fast passenger road transport between 1842 and 1920 in the current pakset (no stage coaches). Else focus on freight.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 09:04:32 PM »
My advise would be to start in 1920 if you want to transport passengers too. Reason is that you have no reasonably fast passenger road transport between 1842 and 1920 in the current pakset (no stage coaches). Else focus on freight.

There are stage coaches in varying types all the way from the 1750s to the regency period.
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Offline Jando

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 09:48:16 PM »
There are stage coaches in varying types all the way from the 1750s to the regency period.

Note I said "reasonably fast". :) Until 1842 one can transport 13 passengers on road at 18 km/h on stage coach, after 1842 to internal combustion the fastest road transport is the hackney carriage (4 passengers at 13 km/h, or better capacity on horse omnibus at 11 km/h).

Or did the pakset recently change, James?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 09:52:10 PM »
Ahh - I misunderstood when you wrote "no stage coaches" - the stage coaches were last updated last December, when multiple types of stage coach and horse replaced the previous single generic stage coach and horses.
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Offline Dutchman on Rails

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 06:57:26 AM »
It took me some time to figure this out, but there are several tips to make a decent profit in the pre-rail period, at least with freight.

1. I don't know why, but I get better results with small vehicles than larger ones if the difference in cost per unit isn't too great. Especially when the line is running at a slight loss (which I sometimes accept as subsidiary to a highly profitable route, like meat to livestock). Though technically the cost per unit should be less for a pair of Irish Draught horses with a meat stage wagon than a single pony, I do in fact get better results for the latter.

2. Use the public service player! I know this is considered cheating, but in Extended you actually pay for the use of  roads and rails. With the low capacity routes you can't always afford owning your own infrastructure, renting it is cheaper.

3. Keep a close eye on the Revenue of Goods. High-Revenue goods may give you just the break you need to get a profit.

4. Wagonways and canals have a far better capacity/running costs ratio than any road vehicle. I put starting money so low I can't afford a rail depot or shipyard to keep things challenging, but a single Irish Draught horse with 3 food cars on rails has a running cost per crate of 1.66/km and 2.66/month! That's just a third of a pony: 5.5/km and 9/month,

I'll see if I can make an ongoing story for illustration.

Edit to add: I get partially back on my point 1. At long distances, especially with a low Maximum Intransite Percentage, the faster stagecoaches come into their own, allowing for faster production cycles.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 06:19:31 AM by Dutchman on Rails »

Offline killwater

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 09:19:24 AM »
I want to add something to point 2. I think land cost is the problem. It will sometimes cost you 30000 to connect one small industry even with the most basic road. Making it rail is not much more costly as the land is so expensive. Industries should be either spawned by the road or a basic one should be built to connect it to the network automatically. It makes no sense to have an industry in a middle of nowhere without even basic road connection. Unless it is nearby a navigable water.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 01:37:23 PM »
I want to add something to point 2. I think land cost is the problem. It will sometimes cost you 30000 to connect one small industry even with the most basic road. Making it rail is not much more costly as the land is so expensive. Industries should be either spawned by the road or a basic one should be built to connect it to the network automatically. It makes no sense to have an industry in a middle of nowhere without even basic road connection. Unless it is nearby a navigable water.

I had wondered about this, too: it does make sense for industries to have a road connexion. The trouble is that there is a very long queue of other things to do first, each of which will take a very long time.

If anyone would like to code this feature, I should gladly incorporate it.
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Offline Jando

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2017, 11:24:55 PM »
I had wondered about this, too: it does make sense for industries to have a road connexion. The trouble is that there is a very long queue of other things to do first, each of which will take a very long time.

If anyone would like to code this feature, I should gladly incorporate it.

James, I think it would not even be necessary to code any new feature here. We already have (implemented by you?) that practically all consumers of cargo are located in towns or just at the town border. With the exception of the bookbinder (bookbinders seem to be randomly placed on the map) all consuming industries already are close to towns. The problem are the supplying industries, many of them are so far away from any town (and produce so few goods) that it's just not economical to connect them.

I think placing the supplying industries in the same way the consuming industries already are placed solves the whole problem for now.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2017, 12:30:45 AM »
Having industries in towns is workable for some industries (manufacturing industries, mostly), but makes no sense for farms, so this problem is not one that can simply be solved by placing all industries in towns.

I am looking to see whether I can amend the book-binder to be placed in towns, too.

Edit: The bookbinder does appear to have a city location. Are you sure that this consistently appears outside towns?
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Offline Jando

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
Hello James!

Having industries in towns is workable for some industries (manufacturing industries, mostly), but makes no sense for farms, so this problem is not one that can simply be solved by placing all industries in towns.
I would disagree here. In the real world farms are frequently on the edges of towns, just where most consuming industries in Simutrans-Extended are placed. After all farms need workers and consumers. As to resource locations like collieries, iron ore mines, clay pits. etc. in the real world towns would have formed close to natural resource locations, after all workers need to live somewhere. Since we cannot bring towns to resource locations in Simutrans we may as well bring resource locations to town then. :)

An exception would probably be the forest/sawmill combo we have in Simutrans-Extended. Logging camps should certainly be away from town, sawmills closer to town however. Since we have these functions combined both locations close and away from town could be possible.

I am looking to see whether I can amend the book-binder to be placed in towns, too.

Edit: The bookbinder does appear to have a city location. Are you sure that this consistently appears outside towns?

Yes, sure, on all maps I have seen all bookbinders are always away from town like in this screenshot: http://files.simutrans.com/index.php/s/tPC9MMv5yiU9uon

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2017, 10:45:07 AM »
Hello James!
I would disagree here. In the real world farms are frequently on the edges of towns, just where most consuming industries in Simutrans-Extended are placed. After all farms need workers and consumers. As to resource locations like collieries, iron ore mines, clay pits. etc. in the real world towns would have formed close to natural resource locations, after all workers need to live somewhere. Since we cannot bring towns to resource locations in Simutrans we may as well bring resource locations to town then. :)

An exception would probably be the forest/sawmill combo we have in Simutrans-Extended. Logging camps should certainly be away from town, sawmills closer to town however. Since we have these functions combined both locations close and away from town could be possible.

There is a difference between being in a town and being near a town. There is currently no mechanism for the latter. Farms were clearly not ever truly inside towns; rather, towns were built between farms such that all farms were (just about) in walking distance of (rather than actually inside) a town.  Industries are only built on the edges of towns because there is no good mechanism at present for replacing town buildings with industries, but it is planned to rectify that.

Quote
Yes, sure, on all maps I have seen all bookbinders are always away from town like in this screenshot: http://files.simutrans.com/index.php/s/tPC9MMv5yiU9uon

That is very odd - I will have to look into this.
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Offline Ves

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2017, 11:07:50 AM »
I know this is derailing the topic further, but would it not be possible for the industry code to call "build city" if, say there is no other city within walking distance (max walking distance would be set in simuconf tab and should be like 6-10 km. Could even change during timeline to allow for longer distances)?
Only problem would be to find a good location for the city, but that maybe could be solved by duplicate the initial build city routine that is utilized on startup but within the "walking distance" radius only? The build city routine would know it should only place one city with very few inhabitants. Since it is the same routine as the one placing the initial cities, it would already try and place the city in the most optimum position, just like on game startup.

And I also support all industries no matter the distance to any industries, have at least a dirt road connected to a city or a main road between cities.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2017, 11:13:38 AM »
I know this is derailing the topic further, but would it not be possible for the industry code to call "build city" if, say there is no other city within walking distance (max walking distance would be set in simuconf tab and should be like 6-10 km. Could even change during timeline to allow for longer distances)?
Only problem would be to find a good location for the city, but that maybe could be solved by duplicate the initial build city routine that is utilized on startup but within the "walking distance" radius only? The build city routine would know it should only place one city with very few inhabitants. Since it is the same routine as the one placing the initial cities, it would already try and place the city in the most optimum position, just like on game startup.

It would be very odd for new, fully-formed towns to appear out of nowhere just because a new industry opened. Do not forget that this would name no sense in modern times when people and goods can much more easily be transported long distances.
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Offline zook2

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2017, 11:33:55 AM »
Ves pretty much beat me to it. It wouldn't make sense for new industry, but during map generation it would. At least for industries that employ a lot of people, like coal mines. Orchards, not so much.

Offline Ves

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 12:10:30 PM »
That is why the maximum distance to town (which is a better name than max walking distance) should be defined in simuconf and probably like this:

Max_distance_to_town_[0]=1 (km)
Max_distance_to_town_year[0]=1700
Max_distance_to_town_[1]=10 (km)
Max_distance_to_town_year[1]=1800
Max_distance_to_town_[2]=50 (km)
Max_distance_to_town_year[2]=1950
Max_distance_to_town_[3]=100 (km)
Max_distance_to_town_year[3]=1990

(This is just a guess on what numbers could be used)

You could even make it a linear function between the entries so there is no sudden "hops".

I think it would make sense for new industries as well, so you don't get those satellite industries in the middle of nowhere with no possibility to send workers there (it's too long and expensive) and it would just not be profitable.

Those cities would be predefined in size: it should be the amount, or if it is not possible to know how many workers the industry is going to need, a preset number, say 20 (could even also be set together with the previous mentioned year and distance settings).

I don't think it is strange to have new towns appearing and they would not be fully formed due to their increadible small size. If more industries forms in the area no new city is build because the current just formed city will be available and more jobs will be available and more people will move to the town evolving it into a bigger one.
In modern times, the very high distance setting would very much decrease further town constructing, but still today, I believe that if you open up a new industry waaaayyy away from any civilization, you would also create living space for your workers, creating a mini society.

Most important is that it should build the new town as close to the industry as possible, so say another setting like this:

Max_distance_to_new_town[0]=1 (km)

And in the later days:

Max_distance_to_new_town[3]=10 (km)

To represent that you want the new town to be as close to the industry as possible but in the later days it is easier to travel in general so you can look for a better suitable place in a greater area for your town.

Offline killwater

Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 12:23:55 PM »
Could a temporary fix be land cost outside city being much lower then currently? Or some kind of a refund when you build a basic road? I think that the cost of basic road as well as upkeep are not as bad as required investment due to land cost.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: How To Make Profit in 1750?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2017, 02:50:36 PM »
A maximum distance to towns for industries might be worthwhile considering, although there is a long queue of things needing to be done before I can get to considering that.

As to costs, I should note that these are not balanced yet.
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