Author Topic: 450km/h wagons for goods  (Read 1881 times)

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Offline ROCAMBOLER529

450km/h wagons for goods
« on: June 28, 2017, 09:41:24 PM »
  I think that the Pak64 need better wagon like a 450km lumpswagon, 450km oilwagon and more wagons with the same velocity because i c that usualy the current wagons cannot pass the 140km/h exept the coolwagon modern of 160km/h. Im going to make a project of this wagons.
  1) The wagons will be for different goods:
  -Lumps
  -Oil.
  -Wood.
  -Cars.
  -Paper.
  -Steel.
  -Cooled goods.
  -Plastic & cement.
  2) This vehicles will be appear in January 2019 (simutrans clock).

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 10:01:40 PM »
In 2017 do you know of any goods trains that run that fast? Do you hear of any high speed goods trains schenduled for 2020? It is not economical to run goods trains at such speed, if delivery time matters (refrigerated goods) then it is done by air (at >800 km/h). Only high speed trains I know of are for passengers however mail ones are included due to being a core part of game mechanics.

Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 11:00:09 PM »
bro, its a game, is not necesary follow the rules. The wagons can have a prece near $160.000, i think that the wagons will be expensive but, for example, the food have a velocity bonus of 14%, if we add a wagon with 450km/h you will win a lot of money than the traditional wagon of 160km/h, and u can put a lot of lumps of fish inside in a only simple wagon, like 40t

Offline jameskuyper

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 11:23:33 PM »
It's not just a game, it's a simulation game. While it's not a perfectly accurate simulation, it is a reasonably accurate one with regards to issues like this one. You won't find 450km/hr wagons in the late game for the same reason you won't find any 100km/hr horse-drawn wagons in early game: it doesn't even come close to being historically accurate. Note that if you learn how to create an add-on, you can add on anything you want - but such economically unreasonable transports don't belong in the main pak set.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 05:00:38 AM »
Quote
bro, its a game, is not necesary follow the rules. The wagons can have a prece near $160.000, i think that the wagons will be expensive but, for example, the food have a velocity bonus of 14%, if we add a wagon with 450km/h you will win a lot of money than the traditional wagon of 160km/h, and u can put a lot of lumps of fish inside in a only simple wagon, like 40t
Part of the reason they do not exist is for gameplay. The slow speeds of freight mean they are not compatible with high traffic high speed passenger lines forcing one to make dedicated freight lines.

In real life fuel economy is a huge consideration when it comes to transport speeds. Where as some goods with short expiry times (fresh fruit and meats, live animals, etc) are worth shipping by air at high speed, most goods are not. Recently it has come to the stage that shipping companies are slowing the average speed of container ships down to improve fuel economy. Most goods are moved around inland by trucks, which might average 100km/h over the whole journey at best. Due to the age of Simutrans and pak64 such changes to slower and more efficient vehicles are not reflected in the 2010-2017 time period.

Offline Ters

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 05:37:56 AM »
There is however the problem that passenger and goods vehicles share the same speed bonus reference speeds. So when fast going passenger trains push this speed up, the still slow moving goods trains start having problems making a profit, as they get a negative speed bonus. The solution to this is for the game to somehow treat bonuses for different cargos differently, not to introduce unrealistic vehicles that annoy a large percentage of players.

But for players that don't want realism, they have the power to install whatever add-ons they like or make their own. And also tweak some parameters. There is even an entire pak set devoted to unrealism. One that is far beyond 400 km/h freight trains. Apart from that, pak sets mush remain conservative, because add-ons can, as the name implies, only add elements, not remove them.

Offline Leartin

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 09:53:04 AM »
There is however the problem that passenger and goods vehicles share the same speed bonus reference speeds. So when fast going passenger trains push this speed up, the still slow moving goods trains start having problems making a profit, as they get a negative speed bonus. The solution to this is for the game to somehow treat bonuses for different cargos differently, not to introduce unrealistic vehicles that annoy a large percentage of players.
Technically, you could also introduce newer good vehicles with the same speed but at lower cost. Therefore, cost-to-gain ratio would stay the same, while your potential gain per unit is reduced.
I don't think different speedbonus for different cargos are required, rather the other way around: We don't really need different reference speeds for different kinds of vehicles. If we assume somebody would pay to be faster, why would they pay more for using a bus at 100km/h then a train at 150 km/h? It would make more sense if they would pay a lot, lot more to get their stuff on a plane instead of a ship, but with a lot higher running costs for planes, that wouldn't matter much.
For short-trips to make sense, one could furthermore reduce the payment the larger the distance, so a hundred-tile-trip would not be ten-times a ten-tile-trip, but rather 9 times. And a thousend-tile-trip would cost ~80 times a ten-tile-trip. Careful balance needed of course.

Apart from that, pak sets mush remain conservative, because add-ons can, as the name implies, only add elements, not remove them.
Not quite. If an Addon contains an object with the same name as the base set, the addon object will be used. So technically, add-ons can remove things from the game, simply by containing objects using the same name but without actually appearing, say, a road without icon.

Offline prissi

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 02:09:49 PM »
pak64 introduces larger cars with lower relative running cost.

There are very few high speed good trains. The fastest are few 160 km/h container trains, and the cost were 60% higher compared to 120 km/h cars. (The record holder for two axle freight cars is actually only 213 kh/h).

But nearly all fast cargo (or mail-) trains are discontinued. Even the TGV postale has been retired last year. So it looks rather bad for high speed freight.

Of course it is a game. But somewhat close to reality game. For instance, and oil car with a top speed of 250 km/h has a godd chance to just fall out of the track in a curve when the oil all suddently (delayed) moves to the side in the cistern.

Offline Ters

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 02:59:44 PM »
Technically, you could also introduce newer good vehicles with the same speed but at lower cost. Therefore, cost-to-gain ratio would stay the same, while your potential gain per unit is reduced.
Yes, but it is does not really match real-life. Maybe if running costs for already built vehicle was lowered over time due to automated maintenance, but I'm not sure how big such effects are in real life.

I don't think different speedbonus for different cargos are required, rather the other way around: We don't really need different reference speeds for different kinds of vehicles. If we assume somebody would pay to be faster, why would they pay more for using a bus at 100km/h then a train at 150 km/h? It would make more sense if they would pay a lot, lot more to get their stuff on a plane instead of a ship, but with a lot higher running costs for planes, that wouldn't matter much.
Yes, different speed bonus per waytype is a bit odd. But that does not hide the fact that it is strange that companies expect your coal trains to run at 400 km/h to pay you the normal rates.

pak64 introduces larger cars with lower relative running cost.
The only rail freight vehicle introduced after 1970, after which the speed bonus reference speed is doubled, is the cargosprinter. There are a few locomotives soon after 1970, but it's mostly EMUs from then on. One might be able to build much longer trains with some of the locomotives, unless the increased running cost of the locomotive outweighs their power, but is that what happened in real life? In either case, that requires a lot of infrastructure changes. (Which has not happened in Norway in real life, but then Norway is a backwater when it comes to railroads.)

Offline Leartin

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 08:04:43 PM »
Yes, different speed bonus per waytype is a bit odd. But that does not hide the fact that it is strange that companies expect your coal trains to run at 400 km/h to pay you the normal rates.
Might be, but that's just an issue in how the information is presented to the player. AFAIK the only place where you really see the speed bonus is the list of goods. The player can adjust how much of a bonus payment he wants and gets displayed which speed he needs to reach on different waytypes, as well as how much is paid per unit.
Just drop the percentage, and instead let the player choose a waytype and the speed he reaches, to show the same list of payment per unit per tile at that speed. Not only would that be more comfortable to use, it would also completely hide base prices and how much speedbonus you actually get. The strange thing disappears without any mechanical change ;)

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 12:56:50 AM »
In pak64 the speed bonus is needed so as to justify shipping anything faster than 60 km/h (the most economical trains). The profit per unit per tile is about equal if you shipping coal at 60 km/h using the slow cargo trains or at 100 km/h using a super engine and 23 cars.

Do be aware that since we can now have more than 23 cars, the super engine with something like 60 cars running at a slower speed will be the most profitable, probably a lot more than the cargo trains.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:54:18 AM by DrSuperGood »

Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 01:37:06 AM »
Okey, okey. I have an idea, we can test the wagons in a private world or a public world but if we dont test this wagons we never see if the wagons will be economic or not. Maybe yes maybe not in the future some guys are going to create a 450km/h wagons for goods but if the Simutrans comunity let us to put the 450km/h wagons, we are going to change the form to play of a lot of simutrans players.

-Vote yes to 450W :) :)

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 06:08:11 AM »
The wagon does not need testing, we already know it will work mechanically. The problem is that it does not really fit into the game balance of pak64, and even if it did there are more pressing game balance issues with pak64, especially with new extra long convoys.

I believe that there were meant to be high speed goods wagons for the monorail (called maglev in pak64). This was to follow the style of the original transport tycoon and OpenTTD where one could move goods around at ludicrous speeds on futuristic maglev engines. However such wagons were never made and frankly they are quite silly even if it is meant to be 2150.

Offline Ters

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 08:19:02 AM »
Do be aware that since we can now have more than 23 cars, the super engine with something like 60 cars running at a slower speed will be the most profitable, probably a lot more than the cargo trains.

But is that intentional, and not just an unintended side-effect of allowing longer trains and a rather primitive economic model?

The wagon does not need testing, we already know it will work mechanically.

Indeed. Simutrans lets you send giant meatballs along maglev tracks with success if you want to. Make what you want and have fun with it, be it on your own or with someone who shares your interest. But the majority seems to find the idea of 450 km/h rail freight silly, for real-life reasons that are not accurately represented in Simutrans. Therefore, it is unlikely to be bundled with any standard pak set.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 04:04:13 PM »
Quote
But is that intentional, and not just an unintended side-effect of allowing longer trains and a rather primitive economic model?
It is unintended because the pakset was not designed with convoys longer than 24 units in mind.

Quote
Therefore, it is unlikely to be bundled with any standard pak set.
Pak128 Britain used to have ludicrous speed maglev freight cars. However I think those were removed recently, at least from the extended branch of it.

Offline Vladki

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 06:35:23 PM »
Those maglev cargo trains were only for piece and cooled goods. Even though they were very fast, they were still much slower than maglev passenger trains.




Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 10:24:36 PM »
  Ok, so the new idea are the maglev. If the maglev will be wagons for cooled and piece i think that thy will be discovered with the Concept 1 or 2 (January 2020 or January 2035) and they will have a locomotive that it will push the cooled wagons or piece.
  But exist another alternative for the 450km/h wagons that will be the air. I think that the cooled air will be necesary for the Pack64 and more variability with the planes for pieces. I only wish that one of this two "proyect (maglev for cargo or more plains for cargo)" will be added on the new version of the Simutrans Pak64.

srry for my english

Offline Ters

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2017, 08:27:08 AM »
There does not appear to be a lot of pak64 artists anymore, apart from some British trains. Maybe artists find they can express themselves better in pak128. Maybe some Japanese artists still do pak64 stuff, but they keep mostly to themselves. But generally, if one wants something done, one has to do it oneself.

Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 09:39:21 PM »
No no, dont put the British trains of pak128 in this disscus, im not a Japanese artist  im only a Simutrans & Argentian player, not a Japanese artist. Well if you dont like the 450km/h wagons for goods you can send posts to "Monorails & planes for good" and abandonate this disscus if you want.

by: ROCAMBOLER529 & The Argentian. 

Offline prissi

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Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2017, 05:44:36 AM »
Sorry, I think variety is good. But as pointed out, the current financial balance in pak64 make accomodating those cars a little difficult.

Offline Vladki

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 06:52:49 AM »
Rocamboler, maybe some of the information was lost in automatic translations. If you want to create fast cargo trains (or monorail, maglev or planes), you are welcome to do it yourself. Just do not expect that anyone else will do it. Also do not expect that they will be accepted as a part of main pakset, because they will break the balance of the game. You can add them to the game as add-on. Maybe there are other players who would like to use such fast trains too.

If you want to play with such trains now, without the hassle of creating new add-ons, just download and try pak128.britan.




Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 09:29:49 PM »
thx Vladki, but we want to create wagons to put in the main addons pakset. If you wont add the wagons its okey.We think that if we put planes for piece & cooled food will be better than planes. We only want to c our names in some vehicle in simutrans. When i have said WE, i will say (ROCAMBOLER529 & The Argentian).

by: ROCAMBOLER529 & The Argentian.

Offline ROCAMBOLER529

Re: 450km/h wagons for goods
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 01:28:15 PM »
Apart of the planes... We think that the 450km/h wagons for goods will be efficent if anyome build a very long railway. For example, if a X player needs to build a very very long (more than 1000km) and a high vehicles for cooled goods we think that the 450km/h wagons will be necesary, apart from that if he wants to use the 450km/h passengers & mail trains, the trains for goods dont will be a problem for the velocity