Author Topic: Non-cityroad patch  (Read 4508 times)

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Offline Manche

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2017, 03:44:58 PM »
Roads should be variable speed, not only 50kph.

I think every roads are should held by public service(as a player).
But not change to "city road". City road is being only as addon.(when city is built or grown, extend for end of each roads.)
When city is grown, roads should not been change to city road.
(like:Newton's first law)

example: two different city roads in simple sample.

left:city road in pak.nippon(50kph)
right:city road in my addon(60kph)
Less different for speed, but looking is large difference.

example: changing city road is enable

darker road:intercity road in my addon(90kph)
Bad for visually.

May be, only my case.
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Offline Ters

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2017, 04:32:10 PM »
City road is being only as addon.(when city is built or grown, extend for end of each roads.)

No, a city road is the kind of road that is used to access city buildings and which for that reason has a capped speed limit. There is no reason to have a specific type of road for city growth. The reduced speed limit is the only game play reason that city roads exist.

The thing most people seem to agree about is that it is unfortunate that buildings will turn any road into a city road (essentially in order to have its driveway there), because this makes it impossible to have a major road through a town or city without making a three tile wide path through it and (ab)using various objects on the two outer tiles to protect the road in the middle tile. If the town only is ten tiles wide, that is a lot to tear down.

At the same time, it is natural for towns to grow out along regular roads entering it, and downgrading the speed limit as it does so.

I believe it has been an agreement that what is needed is simply some method of having ways that vehicles can drive on, but which cities do not use for spawning buildings and which therefore do not get a reduced speed limit. Cities should perhaps also not be able to connect its city roads to that road at a whim either.

Offline gauthier

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2017, 07:08:39 PM »
I agree with Ters in what it's normal for cities to have city roads (not only for the speed limit, for the nice pavement too ;) ) and to downgrade roads they grow along. As he said, the way of having high speed roads in a city is protecting it with fences (only available as addons in pak128). If you draw such a highroad in rural areas, protect it near the cities and everything will be okay. If you want to draw such a road in an already existing city, you had better use elevated roads. However, drawing efficient networks through developed cities always require heavy transformations and lots of money.

Offline HyperSim

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2017, 01:10:32 AM »
Hmm...sounds like some of the religious war.

So, what feature should this patch implement more?
Limit (or forbit) to connect cityroad to high speed road?
Show no pedestrian on the highway?

I don't understand what matters to you for this feature.
(I think it is because the common knowledge about road is completely different between in Europe, in US and in Japan.)

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2017, 04:12:57 AM »
Based on what people are saying in this thread and part of my own requests...
  • All city buildings should require at least 1 of their 8 surrounding tiles to contain a city road type. This road type can be obsolete or from the future. Trying to violate this rule causes road construction or demolition to fail. This is to prevent people from upgrading all roads in a city to the fastest roads. Best implementation would be to use the city build rules in reverse, failing if no rule passes for the building's position.
  • City building placement only recognizes roads that are a city road type or a road type with maximum speed equal to or slower than the current city road type. This prevents cities from expanding along high speed roads while still allowing companies to pre-place suitable roads for city expansion.
  • All automatically built city roads belong to the public service provider player so are owned. Currently they belong to null so technically no one pays for them and this kind of defeats the purpose of the public player (inconsistent usage).
  • All roads placed next to attractions or city builds automatically transfer ownership to the public service player, independent of maximum speed. This is to prevent players from denying other players road space in a city.
  • All roads placed next to attractions or city buildings that have a maximum speed limit equal to or less than the current city road maximum speed limit are automatically replaced with the current city road type. This exists so that one can replace city roads as a company when it is not directly available for construction, eg for downgrading no longer used high speed roads to allow for city expansion.
  • Roads that have a maximum speed limit higher than the current city road maximum speed limit cannot be converted to the current city road type. This is to allow high speed roads to run through a city.

Offline Leartin

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 05:08:22 AM »
  • City building placement only recognizes roads that are a city road type or a road type with maximum speed equal to or slower than the current city road type. This prevents cities from expanding along high speed roads while still allowing companies to pre-place suitable roads for city expansion.
  • Roads that have a maximum speed limit higher than the current city road maximum speed limit cannot be converted to the current city road type. This is to allow high speed roads to run through a city.
On map creation, you get road connections between cities that usually have a higher speed limit than city roads. I don't see a reason why those should not be replaced by the city on growth.

Quote
All city buildings should require at least 1 of their 8 surrounding tiles to contain a city road type. This road type can be obsolete or from the future. Trying to violate this rule causes road construction or demolition to fail. This is to prevent people from upgrading all roads in a city to the fastest roads. Best implementation would be to use the city build rules in reverse, failing if no rule passes for the building's position.
Since it's a transportation game, roads should have priority over city buildings. So I would say it's better to allow the road, but gradually remove buildings which could not be buildt based on city rules. If all citybuildings can be chosen for updating (not sure whether that's the case), add an extra check if a building is allowed to exist in it's spot based on cityrules, and if that is not the case, demolish it. A cityrule with a chance of zero counts as legal, so you can define variations in the rules which will never be buildt, but if they come into existence by shaping roads or placing the buildings manually, they won't get destroyed.
A player would be able to replace all city roads with a max speed road, but as time passes, the city will rot away. Not instantly, just building after building, giving the player time to correct his mistake. A model-railway-player, however, can turn city growth off. Since buildings would not upgrade anymore, they won't be removed either, allowing for any placement the player pleases.

Offline Ters

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2017, 07:48:08 AM »
I agree with Leartin on those three points. DrSuperGood's fifth point is also acceptable. The other points are irrelevant for me since I play alone and don't really care about different players.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
Just because a player does not use something does not mean it doesn't exist. Once things exist, you might want to have them just because you can, even though you never thought about it before. Imagine there was a level skip in a platformer, and you could skip every level until you reach the end sequence. Sure, you don't have to use it. But why bother struggling when you can click a button and be done with it? And once you gave up on a level, does it matter if you do it again? You might, eventually, skip through the whole game and hate yourself for it, you would spoil all your fun and the fact you did not need to would not stop you from thinking it's a bad game for giving you such an option. (Which is why even games who have it, like newer Mario games, only show it once you lost a few times, so you have to at least try.)

Counterpoint: -freeplay exists, and yet not everyone uses it. :)

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 12:23:49 AM »
Quote
Since it's a transportation game, roads should have priority over city buildings. So I would say it's better to allow the road, but gradually remove buildings which could not be buildt based on city rules. If all citybuildings can be chosen for updating (not sure whether that's the case), add an extra check if a building is allowed to exist in it's spot based on cityrules, and if that is not the case, demolish it. A cityrule with a chance of zero counts as legal, so you can define variations in the rules which will never be buildt, but if they come into existence by shaping roads or placing the buildings manually, they won't get destroyed.
A player would be able to replace all city roads with a max speed road, but as time passes, the city will rot away. Not instantly, just building after building, giving the player time to correct his mistake. A model-railway-player, however, can turn city growth off. Since buildings would not upgrade anymore, they won't be removed either, allowing for any placement the player pleases.
Problem is trolls or ignorant people will purposely do this to kill cities.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 12:29:44 AM »
Plenty of ways trolls can be disruptive already.

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2017, 04:22:25 AM »
Problem is trolls or ignorant people will purposely do this to kill cities.
What if there were a way for the server admin (via public player) to protect or control such behavior within city limits?

If that happens on single player: Jokes on you if you manage to kill a city. :)

EDIT: Scratch that. I forgot players will need to build small bits of road for loading bays and the like in cities. :P
 

Offline rapidliner

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2017, 04:56:47 AM »
"Simutrans is a transportation simurator, NOT a scenery simurator."
Is that right? And is that a common understanding?

Offline Leartin

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2017, 06:15:15 AM »
Problem is trolls or ignorant people will purposely do this to kill cities.
You mean to torture cities with a slow, painful death, giving a game master time to rescue them from the dungeons respond by kicking the player and restoring the city roads.
City buildings can be removed with the removal tool by any player, there is no need to go through extra steps if you want to destroy a city.
I doubt Simutrans could get an AI that's able to identify destructive behavior and correctly differentiate it from someone who tries to restructure, so in order to stop someone from tampering with cities, you'd have to forbid it completely - no more destruction of public property, neither in form of citybuildings nor by replacing public roads. As a game setting, of course, since only multiplayer really needs that.
This would play nicely with your idea that only low-speed player roads would be replaced, it effectively means that any part of the city that already exists can't be changed, but you can plan ahead for any new development. Just like in reality, where nobody thought of public transportations at a time before the game timeline starts, so it's a pain to plan bus routes through medieval city cores.


So, allow me to merge your set of points with my own:
  • Player-owned Roads that have a maximum speed limit higher than the current city road maximum speed limit cannot be converted to the current city road type
  • City building placement only recognizes roads that are a city road type, a road type with maximum speed equal to or slower than the current city road type, or a public road. This prevents cities from expanding along player-buildt high speed roads while still allowing companies to pre-place suitable roads for city expansion and growth along public connection roads existing since the start of the game.
  • All roads placed next to attractions or city buildings that have a maximum speed limit equal to or less than the current city road maximum speed limit are automatically replaced with the current city road type.
  • All roads placed next to attractions or city builds automatically transfer ownership to the public service player, independent of maximum speed.*
  • All automatically built city roads belong to the public service provider player so are owned. (City roads - which are any roads with the sidewalk - should always be public owned, no matter how they came to be.)
  • Whenever a citybuilding would upgrade, check if it's placement is legal according to cityrules, and if not, demolish it. Cityrules with chance of zero count as legal.
  • A new anti-griefing game-condition makes public roads and buildings indestructible by players, meaning they can no longer demolish them or upgrade them to roads owned by them, but can still use them to place stations, add wayobj etc.**


* Due to the change that faster speed public roads can be devoured by cities to allow them to devour roads the game begun with, you cannot change ownership of fast roads, else they become cityroads in the long run. However, if anti-griefing is active, it is impossible to deny somebody else access to a city, since the generated road network always stays public. One could deny access by building a wall around the whole city or by occupying all city roads with stations, that however wouldn't be dealt with by this rule.
** From earlier posts, it's clear that's not what the majority of players wants, but it makes sense in online games with strangers.



Edit:
"Simutrans is a transportation simurator, NOT a scenery simurator."
Is that right? And is that a common understanding?
Simutrans is a transportation simulator, but ALSO a scenery simulator (usually referred to as "model railway" aspect)
It has to work as a game that allows creativity AND as a creativity outlet. Best compared to Rollercoaster Tycoon, though a bit more on the 'game' side.

Offline HyperSim

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 06:17:00 AM »
"Simutrans is a transportation simurator, NOT a scenery simurator."
Is that right? And is that a common understanding?

I suppose it is right.  But I'd like to simurate scenery too.

Simutrans is a "transport simulator", but city road replacement cause destruction in transport.  It is a failure "to simulate transport" I think.

And I also think that.

Offline Ters

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2017, 08:53:41 AM »
  • Player-owned Roads that have a maximum speed limit higher than the current city road maximum speed limit cannot be converted to the current city road type
I don't like that. That would severely curb a town's ability to grow, as pretty much all roads surrounding the city would be roads built by me and these roads would often have a higher speed limit than the current city road. There are also times where I have roads with a speed limit equal to or lower than city roads that I want the city to ignore, because they are behind choose signs. Having the city build extra connections to it might mean that vehicles get in without passing the choose sign, causing queues that spill out into the city streets. I therefore want to tell cities to stay away from my roads explicitly.

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2017, 10:45:58 AM »
Is there any reason why all city roads must have the same speed?

While it's true that cities "lower" the speed of their roads for a more suitable traffic or access, normally urban roads have 4 levels of capacity (as you can see here and here):
  • Local/access road: 30 km/h
  • Collector road: 40 km/h
  • Arterial road: 50-60 km/h
  • Freeway or intercity: 80 km/h (doesn't allow direct access to buildings)
Above 80km/h we have rural roads such as highways.

That said, there should be 2 or 3 types of city road. The game converts the player-owned roads to the closest available city road type, instead of leveling every road down to 40 or 50 km/h with the same look. If the player doesn't like the plain, old, slow city road, he can switch to public player and override it with an alternative city road that will be left untouched by the city growth.

Offline Leartin

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2017, 12:44:05 PM »
I don't like that. That would severely curb a town's ability to grow, as pretty much all roads surrounding the city would be roads built by me and these roads would often have a higher speed limit than the current city road.
There are also times where I have roads with a speed limit equal to or lower than city roads that I want the city to ignore, because they are behind choose signs. Having the city build extra connections to it might mean that vehicles get in without passing the choose sign, causing queues that spill out into the city streets. I therefore want to tell cities to stay away from my roads explicitly.
Yes - any method that would make it so high-speed roads around a city will not be converted will curb that town's ability to grow. No matter how it will be implemented, you would always have to deal with that, unless cities become somehow able to reach over - but that's a seperate topic on city growth.
The better question is: Should a road generally be swallowed by a city, except if a player forbids it (as with the wayobj-patch) or should a road generally not be swallowed, except if a player allows it (in this case: By having it slow enough or turning it public). On a more abstract level, on the balance between cities hindering players and players hindering cities, which should be the default, and which the explicit choice?
I'd choose the later, since it seems to me that if I impede the city, it was my fault for not thinking enough about it - something that already happens with tracks anyway. If the city takes my roads, it feels like the games fault, much more frustrating.

As for the other way around: To avoid a city eating your roads, use faster roads. Granted, it's a bit sloppy, but it should work well enough.

Offline Ters

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2017, 01:30:55 PM »
I'm open for either making a road non-cityfiable using a way object (or some other flag), or by having three (or more) classes of roads. That would be at least city road, regular road (will turn into city road on demand) and highway (will not turn into city road and does not support buildings). I don't see much purpose in the finer grained subtypes of city road that IgorElizier proposes, but I'm not against it either.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2017, 06:52:06 PM »
Quote
* Due to the change that faster speed public roads can be devoured by cities to allow them to devour roads the game begun with, you cannot change ownership of fast roads, else they become cityroads in the long run. However, if anti-griefing is active, it is impossible to deny somebody else access to a city, since the generated road network always stays public. One could deny access by building a wall around the whole city or by occupying all city roads with stations, that however wouldn't be dealt with by this rule.
They should not be devouring the inter city roads as they are meant to be faster speed roads. This does not even effect expansion as nothing stops the city from making its own city roads branching from that.

Games are more easy to play, and potentially more fun, when the logic remains as logical as possible. Adding or bending logic for exception cases makes the game less easy to play and potentially annoying.

Offline killwater

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2017, 09:29:56 PM »
I would like to see 4 types of city roads
- 1st type is city spawned and has limit of 30km/h
- 2nd is either rebuilt from 1st type if traffic on the tile is significant or taken over by the city from low speed player road and has a limit of 50km/h
- 3rd type is taken over by the city and has a limit of 70km/h, city should not be able to connect new roads to this one (only the players) and it should not count as access for buildings
- if the one way patch is implemented than a motorway should be possible with a limit of 100km/h inside the city zone and the city should be able to go on the other side of it with a bridge or tunnel (like for tracks or rivers), no takeover and no connections, do not count as access for buildings.

Offline isidoro

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2017, 09:50:48 PM »
In my opinion, there is no problem if a city is surrounded by untouchable roads.  They can be treated like water ways.  Cities can now build bridges over rivers, so they could build bridges over motorways as well.

Offline Manche

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2017, 10:55:11 PM »
Is there any reason why all city roads must have the same speed?

While it's true that cities "lower" the speed of their roads for a more suitable traffic or access, normally urban roads have 4 levels of capacity (as you can see here and here):
  • Local/access road: 30 km/h
  • Collector road: 40 km/h
  • Arterial road: 50-60 km/h
  • Freeway or intercity: 80 km/h (doesn't allow direct access to buildings)
Above 80km/h we have rural roads such as highways.

That said, there should be 2 or 3 types of city road. The game converts the player-owned roads to the closest available city road type, instead of leveling every road down to 40 or 50 km/h with the same look. If the player doesn't like the plain, old, slow city road, he can switch to public player and override it with an alternative city road that will be left untouched by the city growth.
I agree.

In the game, player can modify and add definition of road like these.
city_road_speed[0]=way.local_road,30
city_road_speed[1]=way.collector_road,40
city_road_speed[2]=way.arterial_road,50,60
city_road_speed[3]=way.mainly_route_road,60
Code: [Select]
city_road_speed[[i]x[/i]]=[i]name[/i],[i]min speed[/i],[i]max speed[/i]Over 80 kph road, city will change to No.3 road (speed is 60kph)

When over write road, choice the most nearly speed road.
If road has the slowest speed, road is being as it is.

If I'm wrong, sorry.
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I'm played from 2004.
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Sometimes provide translation text, addons.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2017, 12:05:46 AM »
Allowing cities to expand over "untouchable"/occupied tiles is perhaps a valuable discussion but should probably get its own thread. For the record, I'd like to see that. :)

Offline Ters

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Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2017, 05:03:10 AM »
In my opinion, there is no problem if a city is surrounded by untouchable roads.  They can be treated like water ways.  Cities can now build bridges over rivers, so they could build bridges over motorways as well.

I wasn't thinking that the city was surrounded by untouchable roads like a moat, but that all roads radiating out of the city are untouchable (because it is too easy to build untouchable roads unintentionally). Maybe to such a degree that there is no space between them and other obstacles for both city roads and buildings, but the issue would mostly be that cities would not grow out along the roads leading to it because they are seen as obstacles rather than arteries.

Offline Leartin

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2017, 05:27:10 AM »
They should not be devouring the inter city roads as they are meant to be faster speed roads. This does not even effect expansion as nothing stops the city from making its own city roads branching from that.
Intercity roads are meant to be faster speeds, but once they are encased by a city, they are no longer intercity - they are in the city. Those are exactly the kind of roads a city would swallow in reality when it expands, as it's usually laws that say "speed limit in cities is 50km/h" (or something similar) and any exception has extra signs. Hence if the intercity road falls into the city area, it would generally be a slow-speed city road, unless there is an exception.

In Simutrans, citys spawn first, and intercity roads connect to the outskirts. There should not be a difference between a city spawning at game start and a city growing during the game, hence either the intercity roads are pushed outwards, or they start out connecting from townhall to townhall, being always present in the middle of town.


Quote
Games are more easy to play, and potentially more fun, when the logic remains as logical as possible. Adding or bending logic for exception cases makes the game less easy to play and potentially annoying.
I think it's very logical if the public hand does not steal from the player, but does with it's own roads as it pleases, especially if in return, the player can't mess with public property.
It's also not an exception. An exception would be if intercity roads generated at the start of the game would have an invisible flag that allows them to be swallowed, which other roads buildt by the public hand would not have. Or if only the road defined as intercity road could be devoured. But in this case, it's a solid, logical rule, which is easy enough to understand and does not require an additional flag for 'roads that can't be swallowed' or 'roads that can be swallowed', since instead, the player can allow swallowing by making it public, or disallow swallowing by picking a faster road.

Offline HyperSim

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2017, 05:33:08 AM »
Is there any reason why all city roads must have the same speed?

While it's true that cities "lower" the speed of their roads for a more suitable traffic or access, normally urban roads have 4 levels of capacity (as you can see here and here):
  • Local/access road: 30 km/h
  • Collector road: 40 km/h
  • Arterial road: 50-60 km/h
  • Freeway or intercity: 80 km/h (doesn't allow direct access to buildings)
Above 80km/h we have rural roads such as highways.

That said, there should be 2 or 3 types of city road. The game converts the player-owned roads to the closest available city road type, instead of leveling every road down to 40 or 50 km/h with the same look. If the player doesn't like the plain, old, slow city road, he can switch to public player and override it with an alternative city road that will be left untouched by the city growth.

It is what I want to say.
I gave an example about highways at first because it's easier to introduce, but I think it was not good example.
What I want to do with this patch the most is use multi types of road in the city.

Here's an example using 2 types of road in the city. (road with center line is cityroad and road without line is road for residents)

I think Manche's method is better way to achive these problem.


In my opinion, there is no problem if a city is surrounded by untouchable roads.  They can be treated like water ways.  Cities can now build bridges over rivers, so they could build bridges over motorways as well.

It is good idea to solve privent unlimited access to highways.
(But there are some issue to introduce this, that Ter points out.)

Offline Leartin

Re: Non-cityroad patch
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2017, 06:11:06 AM »
What I want to do with this patch the most is use multi types of road in the city.

Nothing to do with the general discussion, but have you ever thought of using wayobjects placed on the cityroads to get your different graphics? Perhaps even speed limitation works (you can have a 60 km/h basic city road and your wayobjects limit to 50, 30, etc.) - if it's mostly for "model railway" reasons, that should do the trick without any need to change the program.

I don't think having different cityroads leads us to a conclusion about the main problem of "city downgrading player roads". Even if they existed, I suspect no pakset would come with anything faster than 60km/h, instead there would be even slower roads to deal with. Or they only alternate graphically, which is nice, but does not require a discussion about gameplay.