Author Topic: Demo game - signalling fix  (Read 1545 times)

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Offline Vladki

Demo game - signalling fix
« on: September 03, 2017, 08:39:00 PM »
Few months ago I have promised to fix the demo game, with respect to signalling. I could not find the relevant thread, so here I start it again.
I have put absolute block almost everywhere, and also did some small adjustments to schedules and track layout and train composition (different constraints especially due to passenger brake cars - differentiated front and rear).

James, please have a look at it if you agree that the signals are used as they should have been. I wanted to use token block on some lines but found out that it is extremely unpractical. BTW is there a reason, why there is no underground token block (or one staff) signal and no combined absolute block signal (the one with red and yellow arm)

I will probably make some more changes (link some factories - car factory, gas station, builders yard), to get more goods in the game. I'd also like to change the tunnel in casterbridge to tube tunnel, to show that sort of constraints.

I also have a question about loading times. There are two mixed pax+cargo trains (yellow and green player). Although they have fast cars (passenger rated), they take long time to load. That is OK on stops where something is (un)loaded. But they delay the train also on stops where nothing is loaded at all (or even the stop does not accept goods at all). I wonder whether a car that is neither loading nor unloading anything should not have a zero loading time. And the minimum defined in .dat would be used only if there is at least one unit (un)loaded.

The new game is here: http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~vladki/debug-saves/britain.sve

Offline Ves

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 10:01:05 PM »
Nice, looking really good! Really took a while to get used to the map rotation though!  :o

What about using some one train staff, like on the road stretch between Havenpool Railway station and the dock and on the end down to Christminster Eastgate?
Read you had issues with the token block method, there really are candidates for token block lines on the map I think!  :)

Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 06:38:26 AM »
Ah I forgot to to save the map on the same spot and rotation as usual.

I wanted to use token block on the lines to Kingsbere and Casterbridge underground.

Havenpool dock line is limited to 20 km/h so the train staff would not improve the speed in comparison to drive by sight. But it could prevent a deadlock if more trains are scheduled to go there.

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 06:17:14 PM »
Thank you very much for this. I have now uploaded a slightly modified version as the demo.sve on the passenger-and-mail-classes branch of the pakset. The modifications that I have made are:

(1) I have reset the rotation and location to the former standard (approximately so far as the location is concerned);
(2) I have changed the livery of some of the trains to match the correct era; and
(3) I have added an aircraft to travel between the two airports (there were no aircraft in the pakset when this map was first made).

Thank you very much for this: it is much appreciated.

As to the loading issue, may I request that you put that in a separate thread? It is very difficult to keep track of two quite distinct issues (the demo game and a feature request) in a single thread.

Thank you again.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 07:32:43 PM »
Unfortunately I have broken my savegame by switching between classes branch and master... So I'm starting again, with more pausing so I hope to not advance the time line too much further. I'll add the promised tube tunnel and the airplane. Added train staff to the Havenpool harbour. Any other sugesstions?


Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2017, 09:18:17 PM »
I have made a new version of the demo game, this time with more usage of pause... With the following changes:
- train and tram liveries set to wartime austerity (black engines).
- single track lines use token block,
- havenpool dock siding is using one staff cabinets
- complex stations at christminster and casterbridge use track circuit block
- air line (pax+mail)
- some lines for default player use schedules (bus marygreen, train express, air line)
- upgraded vehicles at kingsbere line (push-pull)
- Casterbridge kings road underground has tube tunnel (and WCR 1940 stock)
- trolleybus line to newtown airport
- all stations at main line (including the mines) are 8 tiles long
- optimized the high voltage power line trace, and connected to one net.
- road connection overcombe to havenpool
- fixed pax trains that lacked break cars.

Regarding signalling, I think it would be better to have the whole main line in track circuit, especially to get better behavior on the overtaking loops. I'm not sure if they are really helpful.

I also have a few plans to improve the cargo trains and factory connections, but the question is how much should be done in the demo, and how much left to the player to enjoy.

http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~vladki/debug-saves/demo-13.sve

However I have a pln

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2017, 09:28:29 PM »
Splendid, thank you very much for all this. May I ask what your plan is?

Edit: I have now had a chance to look over this, and it does seem splendid. I notice that the starting point and rotation is not the default - does this meant that this was not intended to be the final version?

If you are amending the carriages/liveries, I wonder whether you might want to replace the GNR carriages with LSWR carriages to match the locomotive on the Havenpool branch?

Thank you again for this - it is most excellent.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:29:32 PM by jamespetts »
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 08:53:35 AM »


Splendid, thank you very much for all this. May I ask what your plan is?

Edit: I have now had a chance to look over this, and it does seem splendid. I notice that the starting point and rotation is not the default - does this meant that this was not intended to be the final version?

If you are amending the carriages/liveries, I wonder whether you might want to replace the GNR carriages with LSWR carriages to match the locomotive on the Havenpool branch?

Thank you again for this - it is most excellent.

Yeah i forgot about the roatation, anyway this is not final, but you know, simutrans game is never finished....

I have swapped the locos on havenpool branch. Pax are now push pull (same as kingsbere) and and used the lswr loco for cargo.

I have added contracts to businesses that had none: coal merchant in malchester, car shop, petrol station, clothes shop in havenpool. And I think of more: hardware shops, builders yard, furniture shops, greengrocers, bakeries. That may be the reason, why some more stuff was spawned in comparison to standard demo game.

Also resignalling the main line to track circuit for higher throughput and better use of overtaking loops.

And I wanted to use narrow gauge trains at coal mines, but they don't have underground stations.

The air line is at loss even if full. I have to check if some other plane is able to break even.

I'd like to get the companies to black numbers or at least minimize losses. I find out that there is really small amount of passengers everywhere. How can I find if it is because of slow or less frequent connections or if there really are not enough people? In other words, if I have multiple convoys on the same line, but they run almost empty, is it better to keep them to have frequent service? Or to send them to depot to save money?




Offline Ves

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2017, 09:42:15 AM »
Quote
I also have a few plans to improve the cargo trains and factory connections, but the question is how much should be done in the demo, and how much left to the player to enjoy.
Since it is a demo game, maybe as many map features as viable should be displayed (incl transport to all of the industries), so the player practically gets a "reference map" to compare with his/her own?

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2017, 09:52:58 AM »
Thank you for the response. What I really need to know about future plans is the point at which it becomes worthwhile to replace the current demo map with your map; clearly, if you are going to produce a further improved version in a day or two, it would not be worth the work. By "final" I meant final for now, rather than forever, as nothing is final forever, of course.

Minimising losses may be difficult, as this map was not set up for profitability and the game is in any event not balanced, including as to the population density of most buildings. I anticipate that smaller aircraft will make loss at least until the passenger and mail classes feature is implemented (and possibly until the full cost balance has been completed), so you probably should not worry about profits and loss in the pre-balanced state of the game.

A narrow gauge line might be a nice addition: they were generally built in remote areas to link passengers and industries producing relatively modest quantities of goods where a standard gauge line would be too costly to build given the anticipated modest profits. They were especially popular in north Wales. To my knowledge, no narrow gauge freight or mixed freight and passenger line in the U. K. has ever had underground stations: the only underground narrow gauge line in the U. K. is the Glasgow Underground, which is not the 2ft gauge of the narrow gauge lines in Pak128.Britain, but only modestly narrower than standard gauge.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 10:17:56 AM »
I think that a new version will be available this weekend.

For the narrow gauge underground, I thought about using it as simulation of underground mine infrastructure. So a cargo underground station with low capacity would be useful as a place where the stuff is directly mined and loaded on waggons. (think of 600mm gauge and less.)


I know that balancing is not finished yet. However I'd like to put the game in a state which should be as close as possible to good balance. Do you have any suggestions on the question how to find out if more frequent service is able to attract more passengers and where is the limit when more convoys are just a waste of money?

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 10:36:52 AM »
Splendid, I shall look forward to that!

It is probably best not to use narrow gauge railways to simulate mine internals, as this is not the intention of the narrow gauge railways in the game, so using them in this way in a demonstration game is likely to be confusing to players.

Because I have not worked on balancing yet, I do not have information about how to put the game into a state of balance, or whether this is even possible.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2017, 02:34:34 PM »
New version is here http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~vladki/debug-saves/demo-14.sve
- track circuit signalling.
- more factories connected
- mixed pax/goods train on kingsbere branch line.

Any suggestions?


Here is a screenshot of what I wanted for the mines:


But if you think this should not be there, I will accept it.

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »
Splendid! This is looking lovely so far.

I understand what you are trying to do with the mines, but this is not how mines work in Simutrans, so I think that this is likely to be confusing in a demo game that is intended to show game features to players.
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Offline fam621

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2017, 06:32:43 PM »
Ikr, its so good to see the demo up to scratch.

Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 07:45:39 PM »
Here is the final version
http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~vladki/debug-saves/demo-final.sve

- improved the landscape for the "backyard" single track used by the direct train from casterbridge to christmister. This train changed to GWR Swindon Twinset

- linked probably all industries that were lacking connections.
- added more goods cars to branches to keep up with the demand.
- express trains shortened to achieve higher speed


Now it is more about playing than fixing so enjoy!

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2017, 08:02:01 PM »
Excellent, thank you! I have now incorporated this into the master branch. This is much appreciated.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 07:00:54 AM »
Hello, I have a problem with the demo game and airplanes. The world is too narrow, so the airports are too close to edge. Planes refuse to take off, but usually rotating tha map helps , just to get stuck on the other side of map.

Should I rearrange the airports to be within the permitted area?




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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 10:41:33 AM »
Ahh, I had not considered how the airport edge spacing of the AFHP might affect the demo game. Re-arranging the airports so that the runways are parallel, rather than perpendicular, to the edges might well help - thank you for looking into this.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2017, 03:53:13 PM »
New version of demo game: http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~vladki/debug-saves/demo-1945.sve
- reduced airports - runways only parallel to the narrow world
- lots of terraforming around high peak ore mines, enjoy!
- some improvements in schedules, etc..

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2017, 11:23:58 PM »
Splendid, thank you - now updated. I had to fix some errors with the LNER Tyneside EMUs that you had used in this game in place of the 2-BILs before publishing this version.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 07:00:17 AM »
Splendid, thank you - now updated. I had to fix some errors with the LNER Tyneside EMUs that you had used in this game in place of the 2-BILs before publishing this version.
I used them as they are cheper to run and accelerate faster. But what was the problem with them?




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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 08:09:17 AM »
The MPV had been drawn as single ended but had coupling constraints consistent with being double ended.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2017, 03:23:07 PM »
The MPV had been drawn as single ended but had coupling constraints consistent with being double ended.
Ah, so you fixed the graphics, not the demo game.

James, did you rescale the Tyneside MPV ? It looks now a little bit smaller than the passenger EMU.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:49:32 PM by Vladki »

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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2017, 10:53:27 PM »
I did not re-scale it, but I did shape the corners of what was the rear end, which may conceivably have altered the appearance of size.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 11:24:13 PM »
I did not re-scale it, but I did shape the corners of what was the rear end, which may conceivably have altered the appearance of size.
It is not only the end... It looks narrower and lower than pax version.




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Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2017, 11:27:43 PM »
That is odd - I did not change the overall dimensions of it; perhaps the new transparent rendering has made the edges look different?
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Offline Vladki

Re: Demo game - signalling fix
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2017, 06:34:16 AM »
That is odd - I did not change the overall dimensions of it; perhaps the new transparent rendering has made the edges look different?
That could be the reason. It really looks one pixel smaller on all sides. Maybe just render again the pax version too, so that they are the same.