Author Topic: IET trains does not have the correct acceleration rate and livery variants (Read 4662 times)

thegamer7893 · « **on:** November 16, 2017, 08:14:58 PM »

Hello James, I have just finished playing Simutrans and I notice that the class 801 has better acceleration the the class 800 and for some reason they are not livery variant so what I mean is that the class 800 should be able to have the Virgin Trains livery and also to have the same acceleration rate as its no different in real life whether its on diesel or electric. So can that be a possible fix please?

Rollmaterial · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2017, 08:17:13 PM »

As the livery issue is very easy to fix, I suggest you give it a go yourself. All you need to do is copy the livery definitions from one .dat file to the other.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2017, 08:46:53 PM »

And how do I do that?

jamespetts · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2017, 09:00:16 PM »

Although in reality both class 800 and 801 are bi-mode, we do not yet have any simulation of bi-mode vehicles in Simutrans-Extended. This is planned eventually, but there is a very long queue of challenging higher priority features that must be dealt with first.

Until bi-mode vehicles are simulated, the Class 800 has been coded as diesel and the 801 as electric. This means that the Class 800 will have inferior acceleration compared with the Class 801. When bi-mode vehicles are simulated, the acceleration when running on electrical power will be superior to the acceleration when running on diesel power.

Rollmaterial · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2017, 09:01:27 PM »

Quote from: fam621 on November 16, 2017, 08:46:53 PM

And how do I do that?

Copy/paste

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2017, 09:02:30 PM »

Class 801s are not bi-mode its electric only and actually the class 800s are already bi-mode (ish) as they can be bought from a electric depot

jamespetts · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2017, 09:07:42 PM »

Quote from: fam621 on November 16, 2017, 09:02:30 PM

Class 801s are not bi-mode its electric only and actually the class 800s are already bi-mode (ish) as they can be bought from a electric depot

But nevertheless, they are coded as diesel, and so have the performance that these units have when running on diesel power.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2018, 06:09:53 PM »

Quote from: jamespetts on November 16, 2017, 09:07:42 PM

But nevertheless, they are coded as diesel, and so have the performance that these units have when running on diesel power.

They have near enough the same performance as when they are running on electric power and also a new bi-mode veriant of the IET fleet is coming as well in the form of the Class 802.

jamespetts · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2018, 12:19:10 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on May 27, 2018, 06:09:53 PM

They have near enough the same performance as when they are running on electric power and also a new bi-mode veriant of the IET fleet is coming as well in the form of the Class 802.

I am not sure that I understand the intended significance of this comment. Do you mean to suggest that the power/tractive effort figures for the diesel version of these trains is incorrect? If so, I should be grateful if you could point me to a source for more accurate figures for these.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2018, 02:28:42 PM »

Yes. On wikipedia (the link given) is where you can find the correct power/tractive effort figures for the bi-mode class 800s. I have also given links to the class 802 power/tractive effort figures (for the Class 801, use the same power/tractive effort figures as on the Class 800's).

Class 800 power/tractive effort figures link (wikipedia page): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

Class 802 power/tractive effort figures link (wikipedia page): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802

jamespetts · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2018, 04:12:56 PM »

I do not understand which figures that you think are incorrect. The tractive effort figures are not provided on the Wilkipedia articles. The power figures are given as 560kW per powered vehicle - the power of the units in the game is 700kW, which is, according to a note, the original power of the engines before they were de-rated for these units (the reason for this is not given). Can you elaborate on which you think are the correct figures and how these diverge from the actual figures in the pakset?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2018, 04:24:10 PM »

What I mean is that the IET fleet should have the same acceration/power rate for operation on both 25KV AC overhead lines and on diesel and this should be the same for braking.

ACarlotti · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2018, 09:55:51 PM »

That is not correct. There are a few different variations, but in every case the trains have more power running in electric mode than in diesel mode. Table 1 in this article has all the figures; read the section headed "Comparing power ratings" to see why the difference is even greater than is suggested by the raw figures in the table.
https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/10/24/bi-mode-trains-unlocking-opportunity/

I would however expect them to have the same tractive effort and braking force in either mode of operation, since the same electric motors and brakes are being used in either case.

jamespetts · « **Reply #13 on:** May 29, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »

Fam622 - the power of the units in the game is based on the published figures. If you think that those are wrong, you will need to find more reliable/accurate published figures than are on Wikipedia.

As to tractive effort, I cannot find any source that gives tractive effort. Does anyone know of any source giving the tractive effort of these units? I have found that it is generally very difficult to find tractive effort data for multiple units for some reason.

I do note, however, that the acceleration figures in table 2 are different for diesel than they are for electric. Given that acceleration is determined by tractive effort in Simutrans-Extended, this suggests that it is correct to have these specified differently.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2018, 02:18:42 PM »

If you go onto that page which was linked by ACarlotti, table 1 is where the information for the Class 800/801/802s are reguarding power and power to weight ratios.

jamespetts · « **Reply #15 on:** May 29, 2018, 02:48:04 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on May 29, 2018, 02:18:42 PM

If you go onto that page which was linked by ACarlotti, table 1 is where the information for the Class 800/801/802s are reguarding power and power to weight ratios.

Yes, I have seen that table. That does not give tractive effort, nor does it have any information regarding the power which is in any way inconsistent with what is in the pakset, save that what is in the pakset has not been adjusted to take into account the down-rating of the diesel engines. Is what you wanted the down-rating of the diesel engines? That would create an even greater difference in the performance between the diesel and electric versions.

I am afraid that I am extremely unclear on precisely what you think is wrong with the actual figures for power and tractive effort, given that you have not cited any sources that give any different figures (aside from the downrating).

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 29, 2018, 04:11:58 PM »

Quote from: jamespetts on May 29, 2018, 02:48:04 PM

Yes, I have seen that table. That does not give tractive effort, nor does it have any information regarding the power which is in any way inconsistent with what is in the pakset, save that what is in the pakset has not been adjusted to take into account the down-rating of the diesel engines. Is what you wanted the down-rating of the diesel engines? That would create an even greater difference in the performance between the diesel and electric versions.

I am afraid that I am extremely unclear on precisely what you think is wrong with the actual figures for power and tractive effort, given that you have not cited any sources that give any different figures (aside from the downrating).

Can an up-rating of the engines increase acceration as a temp measure until I/we get the exact tractive effort?

jamespetts · « **Reply #17 on:** May 29, 2018, 04:32:36 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on May 29, 2018, 04:11:58 PM

Can an up-rating of the engines increase acceration as a temp measure until I/we get the exact tractive effort?

Have you tested and found that the acceleration rate in game is at variance with the published acceleration rate figures? If so, I would be interested in your detailed findings.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »

The power/tractive force in game is (for the Class 800s): 700 kV/55 kN. For the Class 801s its also 700 kV but its kN is: 62 kN.

jamespetts · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2018, 02:24:08 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on June 03, 2018, 02:04:19 PM

The power/tractive force in game is (for the Class 800s): 700 kV/55 kN. For the Class 801s its also 700 kV but its kN is: 62 kN.

Which do you think is the correct value and why?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 03, 2018, 02:51:20 PM »

I am really unsure. But I've found this website which should have the correct acceration/braking rate. Site: http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/siteforum-list-action?post=3555&highlight=#siteforum-message-3555

jamespetts · « **Reply #21 on:** June 03, 2018, 03:11:57 PM »

The link that you gave did not give acceleration rates, but the Wikipedia article does give acceleration rates, suggesting that the Class 800 has a lower rate of acceleration than the Class 801. In light of that, what precisely do you think is incorrect about the tractive effort figures?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 03, 2018, 03:50:24 PM »

What I think is wrong is that the Class 800s tractive effort is far slower than the Class 801s tractive effort.

jamespetts · « **Reply #23 on:** June 03, 2018, 04:53:57 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on June 03, 2018, 03:50:24 PM

What I think is wrong is that the Class 800s tractive effort is far slower than the Class 801s tractive effort.

What are the data on which that view is based?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 03, 2018, 06:47:50 PM »

The data is on the acceration rate from 0mph-125/140mph from start to stop.

jamespetts · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2018, 12:02:56 AM »

Quote from: fam622 on June 03, 2018, 06:47:50 PM

The data is on the acceration rate from 0mph-125/140mph from start to stop.

And how do those data show that it is incorrect for the tractive effort of the Class 800 to be lower than that of the Class 801?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2018, 04:40:02 PM »

If I'm honest. I dont think that I can find any information reguarding the IEP acceration rate but Ik from watching YouTube videos there acceration rate is much faster.

jamespetts · « **Reply #27 on:** June 04, 2018, 04:51:47 PM »

Quote from: fam622 on June 04, 2018, 04:40:02 PM

If I'm honest. I dont think that I can find any information reguarding the IEP acceration rate but Ik from watching YouTube videos there acceration rate is much faster.

I cannot really calibrate a specific figure as to tractive effort from that, I am afraid.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 04, 2018, 05:01:12 PM »

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #29 on:** September 29, 2018, 06:13:32 PM »

Quote from: jamespetts on June 04, 2018, 04:51:47 PM

I cannot really calibrate a specific figure as to tractive effort from that, I am afraid.

Ik this is a dead topic but I wanted to bring it back to light because some stats were released in January by the rail news company 'RAIL magazine' regarding the Class 800s and I think it is worth wile the read. Link to the page: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/does-great-western-railway-s-class-800-iet-pass-the-test

jamespetts · « **Reply #30 on:** September 29, 2018, 07:17:30 PM »

Sadly, while the article gives detailed seating dimensions, there are no tractive effort figures.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #31 on:** September 29, 2018, 08:00:10 PM »

Ah lol k. Just seeing whether this would help. Would this help: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/iep-for-beginners.77790/page-18#post-1344308 Read the top post in this link

jamespetts · « **Reply #32 on:** September 29, 2018, 08:28:31 PM »

What is needed is a specific figure for the tractive effort. That is not the same as power (or power:weight ratio). If you can find a source for the tractive effort, that would be helpful. Anything else does not take things any further.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 29, 2018, 09:47:58 PM »

Well if this isnt enough, well I'm done for: https://www.railengineer.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Table-1-Hitachi-800-802-orders-V3-Avenir.pdf

jamespetts · « **Reply #34 on:** September 29, 2018, 09:53:05 PM »

Again, these do not have the tractive effort. There is no point in posting links to data that do not contain the tractive effort. As explained, tractive effort is not the same as power. Surely you can check before you post links to data whether they have the tractive effort rather than posting lots of things for me to check, taking up my time?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 30, 2018, 11:07:59 AM »

Unfortunately, there is no source which provides tractive effort. But the trains do have very good acceleration both on and off electric mode (as in they have just as good of acceleration on diesel mode)

jamespetts · « **Reply #36 on:** September 30, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »

Quote from: SouthernTransport225 on September 30, 2018, 11:07:59 AM

Unfortunately, there is no source which provides tractive effort. But the trains do have very good acceleration both on and off electric mode (as in they have just as good of acceleration on diesel mode)

As already stated several times on this thread, without numerical data, it is not realistically possible to improve the calibration of the tractive effort.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 30, 2018, 02:12:13 PM »

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 22, 2018, 11:53:17 AM »

In my opinion, I think that the Class 800/801 IETs might have near enough the same tractive effort as the Class 385s

jamespetts · « **Reply #39 on:** October 22, 2018, 12:15:34 PM »

Quote from: SouthernTrains100 on October 22, 2018, 11:53:17 AM

In my opinion, I think that the Class 800/801 IETs might have near enough the same tractive effort as the Class 385s

What is the data source for that?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 22, 2018, 05:27:29 PM »

Me and someone else from the forum had a little discussion regarding this and also moving to liveries, will the class 800 be able to be liveried into LNER (London North Eastern Railway (VTEC (Virgin Trains East Coast when designed))?

jamespetts · « **Reply #41 on:** October 22, 2018, 06:36:59 PM »

I am not sure that I quite understand the question; it is possible in principle to produce graphics for the liveries of anything. I think that the .blend files for this are now available, so you should be able to modify the 3d models used to create the graphics for this rather than producing entirely new 3d models.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 22, 2018, 06:44:12 PM »

What I mean is that like can the class 800s ingame be able to be relievered into LNER livery

jamespetts · « **Reply #43 on:** October 22, 2018, 07:03:21 PM »

If someone makes the livery graphics and updates the .dat files, then certainly.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 22, 2018, 09:02:48 PM »

The graphics are already there (well the old VTEC graphics anyway). But do the acceleration rate have to be given in tractive effort?

jamespetts · « **Reply #45 on:** October 22, 2018, 10:58:19 PM »

The tractive effort and power (principally the tractive effort) are the only parameters in the physics engine that control the rate of acceleration.

If the graphics that you are interested in are already present, I do not understand your earlier question.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 23, 2018, 09:01:46 AM »

What I actually mean is that can the Class 800 also be able to be liveried into LNER (VTEC (East Coast franchise)) livery scheme and unfortunately, there is no available information regarding tractive effort. This is the best that I can do regarding that area regarding acceleration. The power output for the Class 800 is ‎560 kW (750 hp) per engine

jamespetts · « **Reply #47 on:** October 23, 2018, 10:03:20 AM »

The power has already been stated correctly, as this was set from data. I am aware that there is no available information for the tractive effort, as discussed quite some time ago on this thread, I believe.

I still do not understand the question about the livery: you are of course quite free to produce a new LNER (modern) livery for the class 800, and I believe that the .blend files exist and are available so that you can modify the existing 3d models to produce the new livery variants.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #48 on:** October 23, 2018, 10:46:00 AM »

I think I've been wording it wrong all along. I mean this! The livery scheme thingy. Also, the info you might of got might of been or when it was still been tested and stuff. But if you go onto YouTube and search up 'class 800 acceleration to 110mph' you will note that it has very good acceleration

jamespetts · « **Reply #49 on:** October 23, 2018, 11:33:24 AM »

You mean the livery scheme? You can certainly add one of those: just add one to the end of the livery schemes section in the pakset specific simuconf.tab. You will see the correct format by looking at the others.

As for the acceleration being "very good", as I believe has been discussed on this thread now quite a number of times, such vague information is unusable. I need numerical data for calibration. Please do not keep asking me to adjust the tractive effort based on unusable vague information.

If you have numerical data on actual acceleration rates on the flat with a specific configuration/formation, you can run your own tests in-game to deduce the correct tractive effort by testing to see whether it accelerates to the given speed within the correct number of tiles at 125m/tile based on the source data, and, if it does not, adjust the tractive effort multiplier in the advanced settings dialogue (press the "i" key to access) until it is correct. This multiplier can then be reset in the advanced settings dialogue but multiplied by the tractive effort figures given in the class 800's .dat files. If you do this, you will need to give me full information on the numerical source so that I can verify its accuracy, and also upload the saved game that you used for testing.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 23, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »

Quote from: jamespetts on October 23, 2018, 11:33:24 AM

You mean the livery scheme? You can certainly add one of those: just add one to the end of the livery schemes section in the pakset specific simuconf.tab. You will see the correct format by looking at the others.

As for the acceleration being "very good", as I believe has been discussed on this thread now quite a number of times, such vague information is unusable. I need numerical data for calibration. Please do not keep asking me to adjust the tractive effort based on unusable vague information.

If you have numerical data on actual acceleration rates on the flat with a specific configuration/formation, you can run your own tests in-game to deduce the correct tractive effort by testing to see whether it accelerates to the given speed within the correct number of tiles at 125m/tile based on the source data, and, if it does not, adjust the tractive effort multiplier in the advanced settings dialogue (press the "i" key to access) until it is correct. This multiplier can then be reset in the advanced settings dialogue but multiplied by the tractive effort figures given in the class 800's .dat files. If you do this, you will need to give me full information on the numerical source so that I can verify its accuracy, and also upload the saved game that you used for testing.

Maybe we should leave the tractive effort thing for now because I have looked for it and no website gives the figures for tractive effort unfortunately. Also how to do mod the simuconf.tab?

jamespetts · « **Reply #51 on:** October 23, 2018, 11:54:44 AM »

It is a text file, so you can edit it in the same way as any other text file.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #52 on:** October 23, 2018, 11:58:08 AM »

Okay, I'm in it now. So exactly, what do I do to get the VTEC livery from the class 801 to be applied onto the class 800?

jamespetts · « **Reply #53 on:** October 23, 2018, 12:03:23 PM »

This is not the question that you were asking before: previously, you were just asking about adding a livery scheme for the new LNER livery, which is not at all the same thing as applying the livery of one sort of vehicle to the livery of another sort of vehicle.

I cannot remember now whether the class 801's vehicles all look identical to the class 800's vehicles. If they do, you can just use the graphics for those class 801 vehicles in a new livery of the class 800. If not, then you will need to create new graphics.

However, are there class 800s (as opposed to class 801s) in the VTEC livery?

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 23, 2018, 05:45:24 PM »

One class 800 was liveried into VTEC livery in real life and the class 801s look exactly like the class 800s. Just that the 801s are Electric only and the 800s are bi-mode. So yes, the graphics for the class 800/801s are the same (just that they are in different liveries)

jamespetts · « **Reply #55 on:** October 23, 2018, 06:38:19 PM »

Splendid, thank you for confirming. Do let me know when you have modified the .dat files so that I can update the pakset with them.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #56 on:** October 23, 2018, 07:35:06 PM »

Where can I find these .dat files?

Rollmaterial · « **Reply #57 on:** October 23, 2018, 08:17:36 PM »

Quote from: SouthernTrains100 on October 23, 2018, 07:35:06 PM

Where can I find these .dat files?

In the sources!

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #58 on:** October 24, 2018, 09:38:33 AM »

Where are these sources, because I cant just guess what sources there in because their are alot of sources of Simutrans stuff. Please be more specific next time!

jamespetts · « **Reply #59 on:** October 24, 2018, 09:41:56 AM »

All the details are on this stickied thread, to which you have responded in the past.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #60 on:** October 24, 2018, 10:20:54 AM »

I've worded it wrong again, havent I? Sorry for the run around but I mean the .dat file sources.

jamespetts · « **Reply #61 on:** October 24, 2018, 10:58:06 AM »

This is a quote from the thread to which I provided a link above:

Quote

When you clone the Github repositories in the relevant part of the tutorial, use this link for the .png and .dat files (i.e. the pakset repository):

https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain.git

and this link for the 3D models:

https://github.com/jamespetts/Pak128.Britain-blends.git

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #62 on:** October 24, 2018, 03:00:27 PM »

This is the modded .dat file for the Class 800 which should include livery options for it to be ran in either GWR or LNER (Virgin when this livery was made) livery. Check over it because it may have some errors in it

https://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/br-800.dat

jamespetts · « **Reply #63 on:** October 24, 2018, 03:08:02 PM »

You will need to compile this yourself to check for errors: you should at least check yourself that your code works before uploading it.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #64 on:** October 24, 2018, 03:29:01 PM »

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #65 on:** April 05, 2019, 12:49:56 PM »

Coming back to this (after some while), will it be possible to make the class 800/801 have the same livery variants.

jamespetts · « **Reply #66 on:** April 05, 2019, 01:12:51 PM »

Quote from: thegamer7893 on April 05, 2019, 12:49:56 PM

Coming back to this (after some while), will it be possible to make the class 800/801 have the same livery variants.

If you would care to modify the files accordingly and test them, I should be happy to include such a change.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #67 on:** April 05, 2019, 04:11:47 PM »

Quote from: jamespetts on April 05, 2019, 01:12:51 PM

If you would care to modify the files accordingly and test them, I should be happy to include such a change.

The only thing is now is that the IET fleet will not carry Virgin livery and now carry the LNER livery and also that I am no good at doing such stuff.

jamespetts · « **Reply #68 on:** April 06, 2019, 06:26:16 PM »

Quote from: thegamer7893 on April 05, 2019, 04:11:47 PM

The only thing is now is that the IET fleet will not carry Virgin livery and now carry the LNER livery and also that I am no good at doing such stuff.

If you can find somebody who has the time to do this and is willing and able to do so, I should be happy to incorporate this into the pakset.

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #69 on:** April 06, 2019, 10:12:03 PM »

About the acceleration rate thing, did you say that you wanted the acceleration rate in horsepower, because I found the horsepower for the class 800s on wiki. and the horsepower is 750 (560 kW) per engine (for I assume diesel).

jamespetts · « **Reply #70 on:** April 06, 2019, 10:32:17 PM »

Quote from: thegamer7893 on April 06, 2019, 10:12:03 PM

About the acceleration rate thing, did you say that you wanted the acceleration rate in horsepower, because I found the horsepower for the class 800s on wiki. and the horsepower is 750 (560 kW) per engine (for I assume diesel).

The power is easy to find - it is the tractive effort that governs acceleration and that is hard to find (as discussed extensively above).

thegamer7893 · « **Reply #71 on:** April 11, 2019, 03:27:39 PM »

Quote from: jamespetts on April 06, 2019, 10:32:17 PM

The power is easy to find - it is the tractive effort that governs acceleration and that is hard to find (as discussed extensively above).

James, how did you find the tractive effort for the other trains in Simutrans?

jamespetts · « **Reply #72 on:** April 11, 2019, 03:42:28 PM »

Quote from: thegamer7893 on April 11, 2019, 03:27:39 PM

James, how did you find the tractive effort for the other trains in Simutrans?

If they were not available on Wikipedia or another source, I had to guess based on extrapolating from other locomotives or multiple units whose tractive effort is known.

Generally, it is easy to find the tractive effort of locomotives, but difficult to find the tractive effort of multiple units. I believe that I did manage to find somewhere the tractive effort for some of the "Desiro" series of multiple units (the class 450, etc.), but I could not find it for many other units, and had to extrapolate many of the other modern units from this.