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Author Topic: IET trains does not have the correct acceleration rate and livery variants  (Read 5186 times)

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Offline thegamer7893 england

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Hello James, I have just finished playing Simutrans and I notice that the class 801 has better acceleration the the class 800 and for some reason they are not livery variant so what I mean is that the class 800 should be able to have the Virgin Trains livery and also to have the same acceleration rate as its no different in real life whether its on diesel or electric. So can that be a possible fix please?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 03:28:07 PM by thegamer7893 »

Offline Rollmaterial fi

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 08:17:13 PM »
As the livery issue is very easy to fix, I suggest you give it a go yourself. All you need to do is copy the livery definitions from one .dat file to the other.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2017, 08:46:53 PM »
And how do I do that?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2017, 09:00:16 PM »
Although in reality both class 800 and 801 are bi-mode, we do not yet have any simulation of bi-mode vehicles in Simutrans-Extended. This is planned eventually, but there is a very long queue of challenging higher priority features that must be dealt with first.

Until bi-mode vehicles are simulated, the Class 800 has been coded as diesel and the 801 as electric. This means that the Class 800 will have inferior acceleration compared with the Class 801. When bi-mode vehicles are simulated, the acceleration when running on electrical power will be superior to the acceleration when running on diesel power.

Offline Rollmaterial fi

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Offline thegamer7893 england

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2017, 09:02:30 PM »
Class 801s are not bi-mode its electric only and actually the class 800s are already bi-mode (ish) as they can be bought from a electric depot

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2017, 09:07:42 PM »
Class 801s are not bi-mode its electric only and actually the class 800s are already bi-mode (ish) as they can be bought from a electric depot

But nevertheless, they are coded as diesel, and so have the performance that these units have when running on diesel power.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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But nevertheless, they are coded as diesel, and so have the performance that these units have when running on diesel power.

They have near enough the same performance as when they are running on electric power and also a new bi-mode veriant of the IET fleet is coming as well in the form of the Class 802.

Offline jamespetts gb

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They have near enough the same performance as when they are running on electric power and also a new bi-mode veriant of the IET fleet is coming as well in the form of the Class 802.

I am not sure that I understand the intended significance of this comment. Do you mean to suggest that the power/tractive effort figures for the diesel version of these trains is incorrect? If so, I should be grateful if you could point me to a source for more accurate figures for these.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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Yes. On wikipedia (the link given) is where you can find the correct power/tractive effort figures for the bi-mode class 800s. I have also given links to the class 802 power/tractive effort figures (for the Class 801, use the same power/tractive effort figures as on the Class 800's).

Class 800 power/tractive effort figures link (wikipedia page): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

Class 802 power/tractive effort figures link (wikipedia page): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802

Offline jamespetts gb

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I do not understand which figures that you think are incorrect. The tractive effort figures are not provided on the Wilkipedia articles. The power figures are given as 560kW per powered vehicle - the power of the units in the game is 700kW, which is, according to a note, the original power of the engines before they were de-rated for these units (the reason for this is not given). Can you elaborate on which you think are the correct figures and how these diverge from the actual figures in the pakset?

Offline thegamer7893 england

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What I mean is that the IET fleet should have the same acceration/power rate for operation on both 25KV AC overhead lines and on diesel and this should be the same for braking.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:35:05 PM by fam622 »

Offline ACarlotti

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That is not correct. There are a few different variations, but in every case the trains have more power running in electric mode than in diesel mode. Table 1 in this article has all the figures; read the section headed "Comparing power ratings" to see why the difference is even greater than is suggested by the raw figures in the table.
https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/10/24/bi-mode-trains-unlocking-opportunity/

I would however expect them to have the same tractive effort and braking force in either mode of operation, since the same electric motors and brakes are being used in either case.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Fam622 - the power of the units in the game is based on the published figures. If you think that those are wrong, you will need to find more reliable/accurate published figures than are on Wikipedia.

As to tractive effort, I cannot find any source that gives tractive effort. Does anyone know of any source giving the tractive effort of these units? I have found that it is generally very difficult to find tractive effort data for multiple units for some reason.

I do note, however, that the acceleration figures in table 2 are different for diesel than they are for electric. Given that acceleration is determined by tractive effort in Simutrans-Extended, this suggests that it is correct to have these specified differently.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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If you go onto that page which was linked by ACarlotti, table 1 is where the information for the Class 800/801/802s are reguarding power and power to weight ratios.

Offline jamespetts gb

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If you go onto that page which was linked by ACarlotti, table 1 is where the information for the Class 800/801/802s are reguarding power and power to weight ratios.

Yes, I have seen that table. That does not give tractive effort, nor does it have any information regarding the power which is in any way inconsistent with what is in the pakset, save that what is in the pakset has not been adjusted to take into account the down-rating of the diesel engines. Is what you wanted the down-rating of the diesel engines? That would create an even greater difference in the performance between the diesel and electric versions.

I am afraid that I am extremely unclear on precisely what you think is wrong with the actual figures for power and tractive effort, given that you have not cited any sources that give any different figures (aside from the downrating).

Offline thegamer7893 england

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Yes, I have seen that table. That does not give tractive effort, nor does it have any information regarding the power which is in any way inconsistent with what is in the pakset, save that what is in the pakset has not been adjusted to take into account the down-rating of the diesel engines. Is what you wanted the down-rating of the diesel engines? That would create an even greater difference in the performance between the diesel and electric versions.

I am afraid that I am extremely unclear on precisely what you think is wrong with the actual figures for power and tractive effort, given that you have not cited any sources that give any different figures (aside from the downrating).

Can an up-rating of the engines increase acceration as a temp measure until I/we get the exact tractive effort?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Can an up-rating of the engines increase acceration as a temp measure until I/we get the exact tractive effort?

Have you tested and found that the acceleration rate in game is at variance with the published acceleration rate figures? If so, I would be interested in your detailed findings.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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The power/tractive force in game is (for the Class 800s): 700 kV/55 kN. For the Class 801s its also 700 kV but its kN is: 62 kN.

Offline jamespetts gb

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The power/tractive force in game is (for the Class 800s): 700 kV/55 kN. For the Class 801s its also 700 kV but its kN is: 62 kN.

Which do you think is the correct value and why?

Offline thegamer7893 england

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I am really unsure. But I've found this website which should have the correct acceration/braking rate. Site: http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/siteforum-list-action?post=3555&highlight=#siteforum-message-3555

Offline jamespetts gb

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The link that you gave did not give acceleration rates, but the Wikipedia article does give acceleration rates, suggesting that the Class 800 has a lower rate of acceleration than the Class 801. In light of that, what precisely do you think is incorrect about the tractive effort figures?

Offline thegamer7893 england

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What I think is wrong is that the Class 800s tractive effort is far slower than the Class 801s tractive effort.

Offline jamespetts gb

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What I think is wrong is that the Class 800s tractive effort is far slower than the Class 801s tractive effort.

What are the data on which that view is based?

Offline thegamer7893 england

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The data is on the acceration rate from 0mph-125/140mph from start to stop.

Offline jamespetts gb

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The data is on the acceration rate from 0mph-125/140mph from start to stop.

And how do those data show that it is incorrect for the tractive effort of the Class 800 to be lower than that of the Class 801?

Offline thegamer7893 england

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If I'm honest. I dont think that I can find any information reguarding the IEP acceration rate but Ik from watching YouTube videos there acceration rate is much faster.

Offline jamespetts gb

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If I'm honest. I dont think that I can find any information reguarding the IEP acceration rate but Ik from watching YouTube videos there acceration rate is much faster.

I cannot really calibrate a specific figure as to tractive effort from that, I am afraid.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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Kk

Offline thegamer7893 england

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[Link] IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2018, 06:13:32 PM »
I cannot really calibrate a specific figure as to tractive effort from that, I am afraid.

Ik this is a dead topic but I wanted to bring it back to light because some stats were released in January by the rail news company 'RAIL magazine' regarding the Class 800s and I think it is worth wile the read. Link to the page: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/does-great-western-railway-s-class-800-iet-pass-the-test

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 07:17:30 PM »
Sadly, while the article gives detailed seating dimensions, there are no tractive effort figures.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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[Link] IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 08:00:10 PM »
Ah lol k. Just seeing whether this would help. Would this help: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/iep-for-beginners.77790/page-18#post-1344308 Read the top post in this link

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 08:28:31 PM »
What is needed is a specific figure for the tractive effort. That is not the same as power (or power:weight ratio). If you can find a source for the tractive effort, that would be helpful. Anything else does not take things any further.

Offline thegamer7893 england

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Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: IET trains does not have the same acceleration rate and livery variants
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2018, 09:53:05 PM »
Again, these do not have the tractive effort. There is no point in posting links to data that do not contain the tractive effort. As explained, tractive effort is not the same as power. Surely you can check before you post links to data whether they have the tractive effort rather than posting lots of things for me to check, taking up my time?