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Author Topic: Demand before tunnel is built  (Read 2628 times)

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Offline Frank

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Demand before tunnel is built
« on: December 31, 2017, 01:53:49 PM »
It is always annoying when you build tunnels too long. This happens when you dare on long distances (small screens) at the exit fields.

Is it possible to display a dialog before building with length and construction costs?

Such wrongly built tunnels very often lead to bankruptcy.


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Offline makie de

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
It happens to me if i am wrong at the height on the other side of the mountain. The tunnel does not get out at the other side of mountain to next valley, but  goes below the valley, may by until the end of the map.

My suggestion is:
 
Limit the tunnel length with a max_lenght parameter in the .dat
like as it is at bridges

Old tunnels before 1900 may be short.
New tunnels after 1980 can be longer like the brenner base tunnel.

I think the tunnel length that can be build with one click shod be always limited.

No change at the behavior of strg + tunnel

write the parameter max_lenght or max_length ?

Offline Ters

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2017, 06:41:17 PM »
For such long tunnels, I usually build them small sections at a time in underground mode. It is rare that the two exits line up anyway, even for much shorter tunnels.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 01:57:07 AM »
In standard I added affordability test logic to many actions to stop this.

Offline Frank

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 11:09:20 AM »
For such long tunnels, I usually build them small sections at a time in underground mode. It is rare that the two exits line up anyway, even for much shorter tunnels.

Normal tunnels seem to have no indication of the cost more. Even if you pull it over the mountain by track.

Not even a marker is there from the starting field.

v120.2.2

In other words, if you click on a suitable field, the tunnel is always built immediately. So what is very player unfriendly.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2018, 11:23:41 AM »
In my opinion, either a dialog or a max length parameter would be a much worse bother for the player than making a wrong tunnel. There's no way I would accept to be bothered every time I want to build a tunnel. I removed the max_height parameters from pak128's bridges, it will be the same for tunnels if they get a max_length parameter. Basically, clicking on the right place is the responsibility of the player, the good solution would be to extend the construction cancelling feature to tunnels.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2018, 12:12:22 PM »
In my opinion, either a dialog or a max length parameter would be a much worse bother for the player than making a wrong tunnel. There's no way I would accept to be bothered every time I want to build a tunnel. I removed the max_height parameters from pak128's bridges, it will be the same for tunnels if they get a max_length parameter. Basically, clicking on the right place is the responsibility of the player, the good solution would be to extend the construction cancelling feature to tunnels.
I agree that such dialogs would be bothersome, but that could be circumvented by having settings to turn them off, similar to the message center. I suppose this wouldn't be too hard to add in the implementation, as it just wouldn't show the dialog and continue the code as if it was confirmed.

Turning them off would be a required feature anyway, as it was stated several times in the past, whenever some kind of confirmation dialog came up, that this would not be the Simutrans way. Eg:
Simutrans doesn't do confirmation dialogs. This is mostly a design principle, but that might have led to some technical aspects as well.
Hence if anyone were to start doing confirmation dialogs, it would not be sufficient to do them in this one case, but they would need to go through the whole game, see where they would make sense, and add them in pretty much everywhere. This would include terrain changes (you never know how much it costs in total, especially if you drag) bridges (similar concept to tunnels, really), ways when buildt with two clicks (no way of knowing where it would be buildt), any destructive measure (common in other games) etc. - it's not just one feature, it's a design decision, so if you revert the design decision, you have to redesign everything that followed the previous paradigm. This would be a massive change in how the game is played, and most expierienced players would probably be furious if you force training wheels on them. It's definitelly not as one little change if the game should stay consistent.


max_length and max_depht, on the other hand, might be useful for completely different reasons. They could stop players from circumventing any difficult mountain terrain by use of tunnels. My vision would be that each tunnel tile must be within [max_length] tiles of a portal, or it could not be buildt, unless it's 0 so no check is performed; and it can't be placed deeper than [max_depht] layers under ground, unless it's 0 so no check is performed. When a tunnel portal is about to be deleted, go through all tunnel tiles within the highest [max_length] available for that type of way and perform the same check, so all 'impossible' tiles are deleted - unless there is a train or something, in which case the deletion fails ("tunnel is not empty") - similar for any tunnel tiles, but the check could be simplified to ask whether all tunnel tiles previously connected to this tile are still allowed, and if not, prevent the deletion ("this would cut off part of the tunnel")
Since max_depht is supposed to indicate tunnels digged from above rather than drilled from the side, the max_depht parameter would only matter on construction but not prohibit later changes on the terrain above (also for practical reasons)
This way, you could have tunnels with no max_length but restrictive max_depht, such that you can build a subway system directly under the roads, as well as tunnels with no max_depht but restrictive max_length, which can go through a mountain, but only ever so deep (note: the tunnel can be twice max_length long, since it can be drilled/digged from either side)
Those parameters would not help with existing paksets though, but since they were brought up - I think they are a good idea. (players might remove those limits for single-player-games, which might as well be another simuconf option, but it wouldn't work in multiplayer)

Offline Fifty

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2018, 05:12:51 PM »
Would it make sense to change the default behavior of the tunnel tool to just build an entrance and have CTRL-click build the entire tunnel? It would take some adjustment for current players, but this would have certainly saved me a few accidental tunnel builds and would align with the CTRL behavior of track (build straightest path now).

Offline Ters

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2018, 09:29:00 PM »
Would it make sense to change the default behavior of the tunnel tool to just build an entrance and have CTRL-click build the entire tunnel? It would take some adjustment for current players, but this would have certainly saved me a few accidental tunnel builds and would align with the CTRL behavior of track (build straightest path now).

It will make it harder for new players to figure out how to build tunnels. Ctrl is supposed to be for advanced features. It should be possible to play Simutrans without using Ctrl.

Offline isidoro

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2018, 10:58:19 PM »
[...]
max_length and max_depht, on the other hand, might be useful for completely different reasons. They could stop players from circumventing any difficult mountain terrain by use of tunnels.
[...]

I can see the connection with RL in the max_length case, but not in the max_depth case.  What's the difference in technical difficulty in building a 1 km tunnel under a small mountain vs under a high one?

Talking about tunnels, diagonal tunnel entrances would be a much better feature.  In the past, it was possible to build a diagonal track with some sections on the ground and some under the ground, but now it isn't.

When building a tunnel, I always plan ahead both height and entrance and exit, using the coordinates that are printed in the lower right part of the screen.  Building independent entrances with CRTL and using underground layers make the task both challenging and interesting.  It's more or less what happens in RL: when building a tunnel you have to plan ahead and make sure that if building from both sides of the mountain, both tunnels will eventually meet.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 06:06:30 AM »
I can see the connection with RL in the max_length case, but not in the max_depth case.  What's the difference in technical difficulty in building a 1 km tunnel under a small mountain vs under a high one?

The max_depth would be to indicate subway tunnels which are right under the surface. Instead of drilling from the portal, you pretty much can dig a hole, put the tunnel in, and cover it again. Even if parts of the subway tunnel are actually drilled/digged sideways, you can consider any subway platform to be an entry from above where the building process could start. Hence tunnels right under the surface might exist even if there is no portal connecting them to the surface, and since you can use vertical airshafts and escape stairs, there is pretty much nothing stopping anyone from building such a tunnel around the world (if it weren't for these pesky oceans).


It will make it harder for new players to figure out how to build tunnels. Ctrl is supposed to be for advanced features. It should be possible to play Simutrans without using Ctrl.
Upon building a tunnel portal, automatically switch to sliced mode at that portals height. Since the sliced mode shows the slopes, Player can place a second portal and the route between them without ever switching tools. Player is easily able to build even non-straight tunnels. Getting out of sliced mode might be slightly confusing, but it's much easier to find back to "normal view" you know exists than to find a sliced view you are unaware of.
As you say, it should be possible to play Simutrans without Ctrl. But you can't build subway systems/non-straight tunnels without using Ctrl, despite being an important, basic feature. Hence a change would be required to fulfill your own demand.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 06:24:55 AM by Leartin »

Offline Ters

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 06:42:42 AM »
Upon building a tunnel portal, automatically switch to sliced mode at that portals height. Since the sliced mode shows the slopes, Player can place a second portal and the route between them without ever switching tools. Player is easily able to build even non-straight tunnels. Getting out of sliced mode might be slightly confusing, but it's much easier to find back to "normal view" you know exists than to find a sliced view you are unaware of.

One could perhaps switch back out when the other portal is built.

But you can't build subway systems/non-straight tunnels without using Ctrl, despite being an important, basic feature. Hence a change would be required to fulfill your own demand.

I have spent many, many hours playing Transport Tycoon (although Simutrans may have surpassed it now, I am not sure) which did not have non-straight tunnels, and certainly no subways, so it can't exactly be essential for this kind of game. Pak64 doesn't really have subways either, if only due to lack of proper vehicles for it.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Demand before tunnel is built
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 07:02:46 AM »
One could perhaps switch back out when the other portal is built.
I would probably build both portals first and then connect them, so I don't think that's a great idea. But in general, this is worth discussing in it's own thread.


I have spent many, many hours playing Transport Tycoon (although Simutrans may have surpassed it now, I am not sure) which did not have non-straight tunnels, and certainly no subways, so it can't exactly be essential for this kind of game. Pak64 doesn't really have subways either, if only due to lack of proper vehicles for it.
Then again, it's one of the first things that comes up in comparisons between Simutrans and OTTD, right after the economic model and the pax with specific destinations.
And since OTTD does not have the feature, the comparison is off. Try playing Metroid without Morph Ball - Super Mario does not have it, so surely you don't need it in a platformer? ;)