Author Topic: Swedish signals and signs. (Read 54917 times)

Ves · « **Reply #140 on:** September 18, 2016, 04:13:57 PM »

I understand that it might be difficult to spot the difference if you dont know what to look at. I am however hesitating a bit to rearrange the lamps, as it would feel very inconsistent (it is arranged like it is irl for a reason).

Maybe even less light coming out?

Could there instead be another way to distinguish that a lamp is blinking?

Vladki · « **Reply #141 on:** September 18, 2016, 04:32:40 PM »

In printed rulebooks, blinking is show as light with few rays (beams) shining out. Like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_railway_signalling
(Just FYI Polish and Czech signaling is very similar.). So I would suggest using the nice new transparency features to put some semi transparent rays around the light = in X shape for front facing light, and a longer beam for rear facing light.

Ves · « **Reply #142 on:** September 18, 2016, 04:45:38 PM »

Just a quick hack with lesser brighting blink:

http://i.imgur.com/PumWEtW.png

It does get difficult to see though...

Yes, that was also one of my initial ideas to have stripes out of the lamp. Maybe now with the alpha blendings.
The inspiration to the darkened blinks comes from this types of notation: http://techworld.idg.se/polopoly_fs/1.160562.1210283275!imageManager/2141377552.jpg

edit:
and a version with flare:

http://i.imgur.com/8MRjLQn.png
Compare with the left most signal that has two full lit lights.

Vladki · « **Reply #143 on:** September 18, 2016, 05:24:11 PM »

I like the flares more, even though they are not very clear... I know it is not easy to do on a few pixels...
Perhaps someone unbiased should judge...

Ves · « **Reply #144 on:** September 18, 2016, 06:07:40 PM »

Quote

Perhaps someone unbiased should judge...

Probably a good idea.

Any thoughts, readers of this thread?

As a reference, here is how I originally made the flashing lights:

http://i.imgur.com/lqmL6yd.png

jamespetts · « **Reply #145 on:** September 18, 2016, 08:48:16 PM »

I am afraid that I cannot get these to work even by clicking the link: the Imagur page is visible, but with no picture in it.

Ves · « **Reply #146 on:** September 19, 2016, 04:59:17 AM »

Quote

I am afraid that I cannot get these to work even by clicking the link: the Imagur page is visible, but with no picture in it.

That is so strange!

edit:
I have made all my uploaded pictures go into a public album, does this help?

jamespetts · « **Reply #147 on:** September 19, 2016, 09:19:20 AM »

Sadly not; I wonder whether it is an issue with my adblocking software?

Vladki · « **Reply #148 on:** September 19, 2016, 05:22:58 PM »

Could be. I can see the screenshots just fine. Ves: put them on server.exp......./screenshots/

Ves · « **Reply #149 on:** September 19, 2016, 06:15:31 PM »

Thank you, but I was thinking that that server one day gets closed down, but that is maybe too far out in the future (ie several years)? Also, I was unsure wether the server was ment to be like dedicated to the experimental development or if it is more "free" to use?

Otherwise, I posted a link in the screenshoot thread with possible sollutions to the issue James is having

Vladki · « **Reply #150 on:** September 19, 2016, 06:32:14 PM »

I'm fine with anything, as long as it is related to simutrans, and fits within the quota ...
However do not rely on it being available forever. If space is needed for something else, screenshots will have to go...
(or if isaac decides to shut the server down and use it for something else...)

Ves · « **Reply #151 on:** September 19, 2016, 06:35:31 PM »

Quote from: Vladki on September 19, 2016, 06:32:14 PM

However do not rely on it being available forever. If space is needed for something else, screenshots will have to go...
(or if isaac decides to shut the server down and use it for something else...)

That is my concern! I always think it is so sad in forumthreads when the pictures disappear.
I think I will try a bit more with Imgur, and possibly shift to eg flickr or something else if the problems persist!

Isaac Eiland-Hall · « **Reply #152 on:** September 20, 2016, 02:22:39 AM »

Sorry for the offtopic, at least it's partially offtopic.

It is never my intention for anything to disappear. It seems SMF is...... rather fragile, and the help there is very unhelpful. I was not able to get sufficient help to fix the problems, so attachments and avatars are lost. :/ I'm very sorry. Sorry doesn't bring the files back, mind. But I *am* sorry anyway.

So as far as I'm concerned, the secondary server should be permanent. My only minor concern is that I'm not happy with how the control panel (Webmin) on that server is doing. I"m having some trouble creating new users. THere is a chance I may need to rebuild it, meaning everything would have to be re-uploaded........ but I haven't gotten to that point yet, and hopefully I can make backups of at least most of it (not sure about working environments, for example)........

But it should be safe.

On space: That is intended to be the backup server for the main server; any space leftover is available for use. There is no backup of this server, however, so if something did happen, files will be gone from it. But other than that, it's intended to be permanent....

So if someone needs a place that is backed up, I can create account(s) on the main server, no worries. That server also has 2TB.

Basically, we should have enough space.

And I will never leave the community - at least not as far as I could foresee. I haven't seriously played Simutrans in years, though I pick it up from time to time (I wish it had more SimCity features); so it's not like I'll get tired of Simutrans and leave. I'm still here.

(well, and not *tired* of Simutrans).

Okay, enough babbling - basically to say: I am glad to try and help make anything that makes life easier/better for the community to the best of my ability.

Ves · « **Reply #153 on:** September 20, 2016, 03:44:37 AM »

Thank you Isaac! Your server it will be!

Edit:

Pictures uploaded at server.exp.sim........com
Here the three pictures comes again:

The original "half darkened":

The more darkened:

The flares:

So any thoughts about this from readers of this thread?
How do you best model flashing lights?

jamespetts · « **Reply #154 on:** September 21, 2016, 12:45:17 AM »

I can finally see the pictures - splendid! Actual flashing lights would require a very complex change in the code, but I see what you have done in the lower picture, which looks good, if perhaps a bit too subtle for it to be noticeable except on close inspection.

Incidentally, and slightly off-topic, a question to Isaac - you write that you would like Simutrans to have more "SimCity features"; can you elaborate? I ask because one of the planned major projects for Experimental is improving the town growth code, and I am considering options to allow players to build city buildings much like real railway companies did in the 19th and early 20th centuries to stimulate demand for their own services, as well as earning rental income (based on demand, in turn based on transportation) from city buildings bought using the existing mechanism, so that transport networks can in part be funded by property rentals, as the privately run railways in Japan are. This may well be a few years off unless I can get some more developers on board, but I should be interested in your views all the same in light of your comment above.

Ves · « **Reply #155 on:** September 21, 2016, 12:52:18 PM »

I splitted the topic into this thread:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15764.0

You forum terrorists

Isaac, what do you think of the blinking?

Ves · « **Reply #156 on:** March 18, 2017, 10:34:39 PM »

So, rather low activity from my side lately, mostly due to trying to do many things combined with limited time!
But, I have been playing around with signals and signalboxes and painted a bunch of signal boxes which I think did come out rather OK.
However, the quite advanced signalling of Exp..Extended gives some challenges as how to present the different types of signals, and I have been thinking a big chunk on it recently.

This is the approach I think I will do:

The system being this:
*nothing* = what you would expect it to be, that is track circuit block signals
ABS (absent for the moment) = Absolute Block. The sign shares the colors from the absolute block semaphores (completely fictive sign)
TOK = Token. The sign is used on all token block signals, hopefully feeling consistent. (existing sign, with a slightly different meaning)
ATC = Cab signal (ATC=Automatic Train Control). (existing sign, also with a slightly different meaning)
ATC/TOK = is in fact just a normal token block signal, despite being hinted as a cab signal. Reasons for its existence is the speed limit and consistence

Something I was considering was to add a small square yellow sign on the choose signals. That would then stack with the other signs, so an absolute choose signal would have both the square and the absolute block sign.

I also wondered about the need to specify choose signals in their icons, ie with "CHO". I have not done this yet, as this would affect all choose signals and might state the obvious.

The signals will obviously not all be available at once. Different signal boxes will only hold something like two different kinds at once (ie track circuit block signals and "TOK", or "ABS" and" TOK")

I know the Czech pakset uses a combination of a number and a letter, but I dont remember if it is finnish or not. I also dont know if the graphics on the map will be different as well.
The Brittish pakset dont have anything on the icon of the signal, and the signals themself are not different (example: absolute block and track circuit block daylight signals).

Do you think this is a clear separation of the signals? Do you have any comments or would you propose any change?

jamespetts · « **Reply #157 on:** March 18, 2017, 10:43:08 PM »

How splendid!

Vladki · « **Reply #158 on:** March 19, 2017, 10:20:48 PM »

This looks ok to me.

Just to explain the czech pakset icons. In first place - czech pakset is not fully fit for experimental, so there are no signal boxes and the choices are not final. On the other hand there are many signals with the same function, just for aesthetics.

Primary information in icon is the botoom letter:
Standard: S-signal, P-presignal, L-longblock, C-choose, O - One way, EC - end of chose
Extended: A-autoblock (default clear, permissive), while S is default danger and absolute, number telling the aspects so there is 3A, 4A, 3S, 4S, ... two aspect signals are without number., ES - end of signalling (switch to drive by sight). 3P - is for 3-aspect presignal for standard, or two-block (platform) signal if it ever happens.

The in-game look of the signals is as close to real world as possible. Some distinction can be inferred by painting of the pole: white - permissive signal, red+white - absolute, red+short white - longblock, gray or black+white - distant, blue-white - shunting. Some signals can be distinguished only by the positioning of red light (eg. 3 vs 4 aspect choose) . Choose signals have more lamps (or mechanical arms)

Signalling method is not hinted in any way - at the moment everything is circuit block. The plan is to have mechanical as absolute block, color-light signals as track circuit, 3/4-aspect as cab signals.

Ves · « **Reply #159 on:** March 19, 2017, 10:51:22 PM »

Ok, so "S" will be permissive signals and "A" 'nonpermissive'?
How will you do with token and one train staffs (assuming you are implementing these)?
And, if you implement it, daylight color variants of absolute, token and one train staff?
I'm asking out of curiosity and inspiration

Vladki · « **Reply #160 on:** March 19, 2017, 11:56:05 PM »

Quote from: Ves on March 19, 2017, 10:51:22 PM

Ok, so "S" will be permissive signals and "A" 'nonpermissive'?

nope - it is the other way round. S - non permissive - standard signal, A - permissive (autoblok in czech terminology)

Quote

How will you do with token and one train staffs (assuming you are implementing these)?

I'm not really sure yet. The main thing is that token machines are unknown here and one-train staffs really a minor thing. We have something that is similar in principle, but the permission to go is given by dispatcher via phone or radio. For that a set of signs would be used. (now they are used for narrow gauge).

Quote

And, if you implement it, daylight color variants of absolute, token and one train staff?
I'm asking out of curiosity and inspiration

If I ever use absolute block at all then I would probably put all 2-aspect signals as absolute block, and all 3,4-aspect signals as track circuit or cab-signal. Or I will make the switch from absolute block to track-circuit with different signal design. Now I have 3 models of daylight color signals: 1950's (soviet), 1960's (soviet with czech improvements), 1970's (original czech design still used today). There were some earlier designs (since 1927), which we do not have in the pakset yet. So those may be used for absolute block too.

Using this philosophy for swedish signalling you could use the white rim on signals as a distinction between early (absolute block) and modern (track circuit) daylight signals.

Ves · « **Reply #161 on:** April 26, 2017, 08:55:29 PM »

I think I will have both with and without rim track circuit block signals. I painted the "ABS" sign and I think it looks ok on the icon. Incidently I also added the yellow small square on the signal graphics for choose signals, and I think that looks ok too, but there will not be any special message on the icon, as it should be obvious.
The new double block, however, I think would justify from such a icon message, only, what should it say? Can anyone figure out a short three letter message that would make sence?
I have not yet figured out any sign to put on the signal graphic that would match both semaphores and daylight signals, and Im considering to just use the same graphics as their single block counterpart. There will only be a handfull of these signals and generally only one double block signal available with a signalbox at any given time.

Vladki · « **Reply #162 on:** June 12, 2018, 08:41:20 PM »

During my visit to Stockholm I tried to observe railway signs and signals. During the ride on Lidingobanan I have seen (unfortunately not photographed) försignal with only onle yellow (orange) lamp, that was either blinking (caution) or steady (clear). Otherwise it looked like the regular 2 or 3-lamp forsignaler with green and white. The forsignal is nicely seen here: http://www.jarnvag.net/banguide/ropsten-gashaga

Also there were 2-lamp main signals (red/green) that were protecting road crossing (with triangular yellow [V] sign). However, on the same track there were also standard crossing signals - one lamp showing either red or white, and related triangular forsignals. So I think that these were block signals combined with crossing signals.